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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: boscoe on Sunday 30 July 17 22:02 BST (UK)
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A 1902 will has "Gross value of estate" [1075 pounds] and "Net value of personal estate" [203].
I can imagine what each means but would like another opinion or two.
What did the recipient really get?
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Here's my understanding.
'Gross value of estate': the total value of the deceased's property before deducting liabilities such as debts, expenses and tax.
'Net value of personal estate': the value of the deceased's personal property after liabilities are deducted. The 'personal estate' excludes land and buildings (the 'real estate').
What the recipient got: 'gross value of estate' less liabilities.
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Hmm...
"A 1902 will has "Gross value of estate"
I'm not sure that a Will could tell the 'Gross Value of Estate' as that could change from day to day after making out the will ???
Annie
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boscoe will have taken the wording and figures from the grant of probate to which a copy of the Will was attached. That's what I assumed.
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You are absolutely correct, Malcolm. I have a copy of the will of my great-grandmother, a somewhat mysterious person. She was buried with my g. g. father in a common grave that I once visited decades ago. Her husband, a railway guard at Southampton, earned 28s a week. They lived in a small working-class home, she with boarders after he died in 1890.
OK, that's were I left it in my 2011 genealogy manuscript.
Suddenly, A friend doing his own genealogy came upon a news article listing my grandfather, her son, selling a beerhouse license six months after she died. That guy lived in just a similar situation in Southsea. They all went steerage to Canada in 1912 . It doesn't add up. Where did the L1075 come from in April? He inherited all of it. Your suggestion means that about L800 might be the license to own the Inverness Arms. She worked as a nurse [meaning before 1917, a caretaker], and all I can imagine is that one of those dying old people left her the license that she passed on. What I'd love to see are city or business records of the transaction. Any suggestions?
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Fascinating. Your g g parents appear to have had a simple, working class life yet your g g mother was not a poor woman when she died! She came into money somewhere along the line.
I'm not sure where you might find records of the transaction, the local archives or local history centre might be a place to start.
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Thanks for your interest Malcolm. Can you give me an e-mail address to contact in search of the possible city licensing records? I live 6,000 miles away from Southampton.
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My understanding is that a beerhouse licence is not something that can be bought sold or inherited,
It is granted by magistrates to a person if that person has a satisfactory character, a small clerical fee is payable.
Mike
Edit: I now see from one of your other threads that he sold a property, a licensed beerhouse.
I believe there were no public records kept of property sales then
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No, he didn't sell it. The newspaper says "transfer." You are correct.
Thanks for the information. Though, it seems strange that a license would have no monetary value, if that's what you mean.
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A beerhouse licence was purchased from Excise, not granted by magistrates. The Beerhouse Act 1930 enabled anyone to brew and sell beer on payment of two guineas for a licence while the Beerhouse Act 1940 required licensees to own and occupy the premises at which they sold beer. Albeit 60 years earlier and there will have been later amendments to the legislation, it seems probable there would have been a property involved in your sale, boscoe.
It may be worth contacting the Hampshire Genealogical Society: https://www.hgs-familyhistory.com (https://www.hgs-familyhistory.com). Southampton archives can be found here: http://www.southampton.gov.uk/libraries-museums/local-family-history/southampton-archives/ (http://www.southampton.gov.uk/libraries-museums/local-family-history/southampton-archives/).
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I have another will question: what is/are "leaseholds"?
This 1890 will says:
Gross value is L 126
Net value [-----lined out; replaced with written] "Leaseholds"
The dictionary says that it is leased property. That makes little sense for a working class railroad man to have. How would someone acquire a leaseholds?
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Very basically:
Freehold = the land something is on and the thing on it
Leasehold = just the thing on the land, with someone else owning the land
So - if you own a house it is usually as freehold - eg you own the house and the land it is on.
Whereas - if you own a flat it is usually leasehold, ie you cant own the land/roof/etc as that is common for all the flat owners. Often it is owned by a third party - the freeholder - to whom a ground rent is paid. Sometimes the leaseholders all together form a separate Company and buy the freehold, with each leaseholder owning a share in the Company
Often, on older documents, farms etc are said to be leasehold - so the person owns the buidings etc (does not rent them, not a tenant) but pays a ground rent to the freeholder, usually the local landowner or sometimes the Crown.
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Very clear. Many thanks to you both. In this case, Liz, the item of leasehold is not stated. But I am very suspicious. The 1890 will was my great grandfather, and I suppose he had a lease (as we call it) on his house. It seems reasonable since his wife lived there until her 1902 death. That is, the 1890 will said to her, no money but a leased home to live in. But the 1902 will is nonsensical. So probably the 1890 leasehold idea has nothing to do with 1902.
And, Malcolm, I did contact Southampton's library knowing from my visit many years ago there that they had a wonderful collection for genealogical searches. They directed me to Portsmouth's city library that never answered my simple question. So, I'll try your genealogical reference. During the interim, interestingly, I was informed about the idea of Poget's Directory.
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The interesting question (to me) is what does 'leaseholds' mean when written on an 1890 grant of probate with the 'net value' struck out. I've seen grants of that era with 'no leaseholds' written on them and had not concerned myself too much with something that the testator did not have! I had also assumed that 'leaseholds' was an abbreviated form of 'leasehold properties', i.e. the testator owned (or did not own) a leasehold property. A clue might lie in the nature of death duties at the time (I have an idea that leasehold properties were taxed separately). Are there no clues in the Will itself?
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No. After the Gross....L126:0:0 the penned is (33rd section)
Below is Net Value lined out with penned Leasehold or Leaseholds [end stroke up-down]
Initially, I believed that he simply leased their home for her abode. But, when she died with the will owing so much(L 800+) and her son, also a rail worker transferring a beerhouse license several months later, I began to wonder. After 1890 she works as a "general nurse" (care giver) not as a beerhouse proprietor. Yet, in 1901 she claims to be "independent." Strange.
Many thanks for the help.