RootsChat.Com
England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => London and Middlesex => Topic started by: MacGrigor on Tuesday 25 July 17 16:48 BST (UK)
-
Hello,
My ancestors Lewis and Mary Lipman married in 1820, but there is no trace of a maiden name for Mary. Lewis was born in Aldgate in 1801 to Michael and Sarah Lipman (née Elias; married 1798).
I would appreciate any information,
Adam McGregor
-
Hiya!
Have you considered that the Lipmans could have been jewish?
See this article here for another Louis Lipman in London
http://peopleaustralia.anu.edu.au/biography/lipman-lewis-13918 who was of the Jewish community.
Could it be possible that Louis and Mary were not married under Church of England? Could you also say where the baptism and marriage comes from, as I've failed to see them when searching? :)
-
Hello,
Yes, they definitely were. Lewis' parents married at the Great Synagogue in 1798. His grandfather came from either Germany or Poland. Lewis' grandson either converted to Anglicanism or just married outside the faith, and from then on the Lipmans were Anglican. I got the marriage information from a genealogy on Family Search.
-
There are many different avenues to take. Can you not reach London at all to carry out any research there?
It might be helpful to look at these websites if you haven't already:
http://www.jgsgb.org.uk/
http://www.jewishgen.org/
I believe if you create a membership here you may be able to search some records.
If Mary and Lewis were definitely Jewish, then I doubt you'll find their marriage on any ordinary genealogy website. Did their children or grandchildren have any interesting middle names/first names which could point to Mary's surname?
-
http://synagoguescribes.com/blog/
may also help you :)
http://synagoguescribes.com/blog/person-details/?value=876
Click on 'Jacob Levy' at the bottom of the page for it to come up with the Lipman marriage details
-
London's about 50 minutes on the train for me, so it's not too far out of the way. I'll check out the three websites. None of his children appear to have middle names. Indeed, none of my Jewish Lipman ancestors did, as far as I know.
-
I would go to London when you can! The website is certainly very helpful, especially using advanced search, but it would be more fascinating to see records/transcriptions there with someone to explain the different jewish and English names. Furthermore, they might have more knowledge on the Lipman family themselves, for example, why on the marriage, Michael's first name is different.
-
Yes, it is strange. I can't make sense of that record. Nor why his father is referred to as Isaac Partir.
-
Are 'Michael' and 'Levy' definitely the same person? I'm inferring from the record that while his surname was record as Lipman, he was actually Levy JACOB? And that his father was Isaac Lipman/Jacob?
But then that would also make Sarah's father Eli Elias.
Perhaps it's worth reading through the guides on the website and the 'getting started' tab, as I'm not an expert on Jewish records myself.
If you search 'Elias' in the surname box, there are many Elias children getting married, and another has the father as 'Eli', so we have possible siblings of Sarah? :)
Perhaps after playing around with the search tabs, you'll find the original marriage of Lewis and Mary that you wanted!
-
Yes, these are all interesting developments. Perhaps my ancestor changed the family name to Lipman from Jacob for some reason. I'll have to look around. Thanks a lot.
-
No problem! I don't have any ancestors who weren't baptised in the Christian denominations, so looking at other religions is very interesting! I feel as though he didn't so much change his surname, if this is the case, but that he seemed to have two surnames? I've had a quick browse through the database, and many of the entries include people with two surnames/two forenames in Jewish customs.
Hopefully you'll be able to find Lewis and Mary's marriage also (I've had a bit of a play around with the many names!)
-
Two surnames? That is an interesting idea. I don't know if Lewis carried it on, but by the time of standardised birth/marriage/death certification, it was just plain old Lipman. No-one in my family is really well-informed on Jewish customs, what with the last Jewish-born Lipman being born in 1845, and my grandad being born in 1939. I'll have to have a look around. Come to think of it, I do have ancestors with two surnames! Michael's mother, if I remember correctly, was called Frances Moses Gomport or something along those lines.
-
Two surnames? That is an interesting idea. I don't know if Lewis carried it on, but by the time of standardised birth/marriage/death certification, it was just plain old Lipman. No-one in my family is really well-informed on Jewish customs, what with the last Jewish-born Lipman being born in 1845, and my grandad being born in 1939. I'll have to have a look around. Come to think of it, I do have ancestors with two surnames! Michael's mother, if I remember correctly, was called Frances Moses Gomport or something along those lines.
Perhaps traditional first names such as 'Jacob' and 'Moses' counted as surnames? I'm afraid I'm no expert- although it is rather intriguing. I'm sure you can link this thread to another one on rootschat which deals with the Jewish community, and may be able to assist you more in depth.
-
You may well be right. I'll try and link this to a Jewish chat. I'm not sure how, but I'm sure I'll manage.