RootsChat.Com
England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Northumberland => Topic started by: Shiny1 on Wednesday 28 June 17 15:43 BST (UK)
-
Hi All (again),
I'm trying to tidy up some of my records and it's throwing up a few questions.
I have William English and Robertina Blair down as being married in South Shields in the last quarter of 1910.
I have struggled finding Robertina a bit but as far as I can tell both of them were born in North Shields (although Robertina is listed on the 1901 census as an "other relative" what ever that means) both of them lived and died in North Shields, so why would they cross the river to get married?
Any ideas?
Thanks again,
Michael
-
They may have both been working in that area.
GRO Index Birth Reg;
BLAIR, ROBERTINA CAMERON, Mothers MN DENHAM****
GRO Reference: 1892 D Quarter in TYNEMOUTH Volume 10B Page 223
LAURENCE Blair Reg 1896 has same Mothers mn Deham
-
Edward James Blair Marriage reg 1888 Tynemouth, Margaret Ann C Denham on same page.
-
I must admit this is a confusing one :o
1891 Census
James Cameron, 81, Head, Mar, Retired Tailor, born Scotland
Margaret A Cameron, 68, Wife, born North Shields
Robert Cameron , 36, Son, Unm, Labourer, born North Shields
Margt A Blair, 25, Daug, Mar, born North Shields
Margt A Blair, 2
Isabella Blair, 5/12
-
so why would they cross the river to get married
Perhaps at the time one of them or both of them were actually living there?
Perhaps they just felt like getting married away from home?
Perhaps they just fancied a nice day out?
There's no compulsion to get married where you live. Many of my County Durham ancestors living and working in the Consett area traipsed up to Newcastle to get married, but I have absolutely no idea why they did so :-\
-
Perhaps at the time one of them or both of them were actually living there?
Perhaps they just felt like getting married away from home?
Perhaps they just fancied a nice day out?
There's no compulsion to get married where you live. Many of my County Durham ancestors living and working in the Consett area traipsed up to Newcastle to get married, but I have absolutely no idea why they did so :-\
and in the same vein, a couple of hundred years from now, folk will be puzzling over why a couple from Tyneside got married in the Seychelles/Dominican Republic/another exotic location.
Maybe, way back when, Newcastle was considered posh and exotic, if you lived in Consett ? :-)
Boo
-
This is not specific to your question, but you might like to know that they married on 15 October 1910 - looks like it took place in a registry office.
Best Wishes :)
-
Not sure what you have so just posting this in case you dont have it;
1881 Census
James Camron Head M 69 Scotland
Margaret A Camron Wife F 59 No Shields, Northumberland, England
Robert Camron Son M 23 No Shields, Northumberland, England
Margaret Camron Grand Daughter**** F 14 No Shields, Northumberland, England
James Mc Kaffie Boarder M 25 Scotland
Possible 1871 Census
James Cameron Head M 56 Ayre, Aymeshire
Margt Ann Cameron Wife F 48 North Shields, Northumberland
Hugh Robt Cameron Son M 17 North Shields, Northumberland
Taken from F/S.Org as Anc is down for me at the moment
-
I must admit this is a confusing one :o
Thanks for the help Trish, I'm pleased it's not just me. Having typed this out I think I might have worked it out as I've been doing it (for the past hour).
According to the 1901 Census
Edward J Blair (b1865) and Margaret AT Denham (b1866) are married.
Margaret A Blair, b1889 is a daughter
Isabel Blair, b1891 is a daughter
Daisy E Blair, b 1899 is a daughter
Robertina Blair, b 1893 is an other relative
Lawrence Blair, b1896 is an other relative
In 1911 Lawrence is listed as their son, they have another daughter, Elizabeth and it says they have had 7 children, 1 of whom has died. Robertina is married so has left home now.
Their father James has swapped his birth place from Gosforth to South Shields (where they are now living) and all the others have swapped from North Shields to South Shields as well.
The 1891 Census you referred to had Margaret and 2 daughters living with her parents. Edward was a coal trimmer so could it be as simple as he was away at sea and she was back with mam and dad?
That just leaves the puzzle of why her maiden name was Denham but her mam and dad are Cameron.
The 1911 census may also be answering the original question of why they married in South Shields - as JenB suggested - one of them was living there for a time.
Michael
-
This is not specific to your question, but you might like to know that they married on 15 October 1910 - looks like it took place in a registry office.
Best Wishes :)
Thanks very much, that will help a lot, where did you find the date?
Michael
-
I went through a very helpful website which I would recommend to anyone. Google 'Margaret Hall Genealogy' then go onto 'Registrar's on-line BMD Indexes. Click on the South Shields link.
or go direct to the website below to search for the marriage. It gives the date as 15/10/1910 and records that this is on register R88.
one.https://www.southtyneside.gov.uk/article/34814/Search-births-deaths-and-marriages-records
This may not be relevant in your particular search; however I have sometimes found that if a marriage takes place in a registry office it may be a second marriage for one or both partners.
I hope this is helpful. Best Wishes with your researching. :)
-
Hi Michael,
Lots of people living in Milburn (or Milbourne) Place got married in South Shields. Simple really ... it only took a ferry to get across (currently 7 minutes) and would have taken far longer to get all the way up to Christ Church if they were C of E. Quite a few of mine did it, too :)
Trini.
-
That just leaves the puzzle of why her maiden name was Denham but her mam and dad are Cameron.
Michael
I read that and didn't have time to look but looked this afternoon. Get yourself a cuppa and a sandwich, this goes on a bit :-)
I think there is a possibility that her "Mam and Dad" were, in fact her paternal grandparents well I think her "Mam" may have been her paternal Granny anyway.
24 Feb 1840 James Denham married Margaret A Moore at St Hilda South Shields (per south tyneside registrars index search)
1841 census Piece825,Book11, Folio31,Page18 Clive St, North Shields - possible
Margt Denham, age 20
Q4 1841 GRO Births Index, Isabella Denham, MMN Moor
15 Jan 1845 Henry Denham was born, 02 Mar 1825 baptised at Christ Church Tynemouth, son of James and Margaret Ann of Clive St BTs http://www.rootschat.com/links/01kbu/ GRO index gives MMN of Moor
1851 census Piece2409, Folio421, Page16
Clive St North Shields
James Denham, 34, Seaman, born Tweedmouth
Margaret Denham, 29, Born Shields
Isabella, 9, Born Shields
Henry, 6, born Shields
GRO Index has a Hugh Robert Denham, MMN Moore in Q1 1854, which would match for the 17 year old Hugh Robert 'Cameron' you saw on the 1871 census for the Cameron family - NB no Hugh Robert Cameron in the births index to correspond to this 'son'
I haven't found a death reg for James, nor anything in the newspaper, but he was a mariner so could have died anywhere.
Assuming that Margaret Ann was widow by 1855:
Marriages 1855 Q3 James Cameron and Margaret Ann Moor - technically, her surname (if I am right) should have been given as Denham, but that could depend on what questions she was asked.
1865 - 14 March Shields Daily Gazette
Newcastle, At St Nicholas Church, on 26th ultimo, Mr Henry Denham to Miss Elizabeth Magness, both of North Shields.
1866 GRO index no birth for a Margaret Ann Cameron in the right area, but there is a registration for a Margaret Ann Denham Q1 1866, Tynemouth, MMN Magnus - not found a baptism for her on family search
1868 GRO Index, Q1 1868, Tynemouth. Birth registration of Mary Jane Denham, MMN Magnus - baptism on Family Search http://www.rootschat.com/links/01kbt/ there is also a possible death registration for Mary Jane Denham, aged 1, Tynemouth Q3 1869
Looks like the marriage was not a happy one:
1870 15 Feb Shields Daily Gazette
This is to give notice that I, Henry Denham, will not be answerable for any Debt or Debts my Wife, Elizabeth Denham may contract after this date
Feb 15, 15 Clive Street, North Shields
1871 census Piece5119, Folio3, Page56
Linsvale (?) St, North Shields
John Todd Head, 79
M A Magness, Daughter, 48
H Magness, daughter, 18
M H Denham, Granddaughter, 5 - perhaps the enumerator misread a A as an H?
1872 5th Jan Shields Daily Gazette:
A son assaulting his mother
Henry Denham was charged with assaulting Ann Cameron, his mother, on Tuesday afternoon last. It appears that the defendant is a married man, but is not living with his wife at present, and on Tuesday afternoon he went to the complainant's house in company with a woman with whom he cohabits, and on his mother requesting him to go out of her house he assaulted her in a shameful manner, Two witnesses having been examined for the prosecution, the defendant's wife, who was in court was put in the box, and explained to the Bench that she had been married to the defendant five years and had one child. She was obliged to leave him about eighteen months ago on account of his keeping company with another woman, and during that time she had not received any maintenance whatever from him. The Bench sentenced the defendant to one month's imprisonment with hard labour, and strongly advised his wife to take proceedings for maintenance against him on being liberated from prison.
maybe Margaret Ann was also known just as Ann, or maybe the reporter couldn't read his own court notes and got her name slightly wrong.
Its not writ in stone, all a bit smoke and mirrors and needs checking and I'd like to have found a death for James Denham to make it more likely, but its a theory to be explored and considered.
Suggestions
The two (possible) marriages for Margaret Ann Moor(e)
1 James Denham and Margaret Ann Moore South Shields register ref CF1 - which according to the list is St Hilda
2 James Cameron and Margaret Ann, 5th Sep 1855 South Shields register ref CF8 - which according to the list is also St Hilda
South Shields library has these records on microfilm, if you can get there to see them then hopefully the details for Margaret Ann's father will confirm/deny that the bride was the same person? If the second one also says she was a widow then even better :-)
Boo
-
Hi Boo,
Sorry it's taken a while for me to reply, I've been trying to get my head around all of that fantastic information you have found for me. You have gone back about 3 generations further than the couple I was looking at and found some fantastic stories along the way.
I am going to try and get into South Shields library and get the information we need to confirm the marriage / death of James Denham. I do work over there reasonably frequently so I'm sure I can get in there soon.
I'll keep you updated.
Thanks again for all of your hard work.
Michael
-
Hi Boo,
Sorry it's taken a while for me to reply, I've been trying to get my head around all of that fantastic information you have found for me. You have gone back about 3 generations further than the couple I was looking at and found some fantastic stories along the way.
I am going to try and get into South Shields library and get the information we need to confirm the marriage / death of James Denham. I do work over there reasonably frequently so I'm sure I can get in there soon.
I'll keep you updated.
Thanks again for all of your hard work.
Michael
Its actually my idea of fun, so not hard work at all, I just did my usual method of looking through and collecting random bits of info, which 'may' (or may not!) end up gelling together to confirm the situation.
As I said its not writ in stone and the two marriage records would be a starting point to seeing if it is verifiable.
I'll check back in a week or so to see what you have been able to ascertain :-)
Boo
-
Hi All,
I have finally managed to get into South Shields library, it has answered some questions but also raised more.
1 James Denham and Margaret Ann Moore South Shields register ref CF1 - which according to the list is St Hilda.
I have the register for this now, she was married exactly as stated and her father is listed as Henry Moore, a mariner.
2 James Cameron and Margaret Ann, 5th Sep 1855 South Shields register ref CF8 - which according to the list is also St Hilda
I have this register entry as well. She is named as Margaret Ann Moor, a widow living in South Shields. This time though her father is named as Andrew Thompson who is also a mariner.
On both registers she has signed with an X so must have been illiterate, I presume that was reasonably common at that time?
While I was telling my parents about all of this and the puzzle about my mam's grandmother they produced the original marriage certificate! On it Robertina Blair says her home address at the time of her marriage in 1910 is 24 Ellesmere Street in South Shields even though the 1901 census and 1911 census both say her and William English (her future husband) live in North Shields.
Problem solved you would think, Robertina lived in South Shields for a short period of time. So for the sake of curiosity while I was in the library I had a look in the electoral rolls to see exactly when she was there.
In 1900 a man called Jeremiah Colvin lived at 24 Ellesmere Street and he is registered to vote at that address every year until 1924 (when I stopped looking). He is on the 1901 census at that address together with his wife Jane and no one else, his occupation is a waterman barge hopper, deck hand. The 1911 census says they are still at that address along with a 17 year old visitor called George Nilson and no one else.
That is not a name that I have ever seen in connection with our family and a deck hand doesn't strike me as someone who would have a servant - and even if he did, she isn't on the census.
New Questions
Does this mean Robertina has lied about her home address when she got married and if so why?
Why has Margaret Ann Moore changed who her father was?
This is turning into a real mystery,
Thanks for the help everyone.
Michael
-
Hi Michael.
I'm going away for a few days so just checking in here so I can get notification and look at this when I get back.
Otherwise I am sure there are other that can help :)
-
OK Trish, thanks a lot.
Michael
-
Goodness, you really do find puzzles :-)
Does this mean Robertina has lied about her home address when she got married and if so why?
Okay so Jeremiah Colvin and Jane Eunson were both from Shetland and were married in Lerwick in 1894.
https://www.bayanne.info/Shetland/getperson.php?personID=I93466&tree=ID1
At some stage between 1894 and 1900 they moved to South Shields, there was a child James Robert born and died, bless him, in Q2 1900, South Shields. So, unless you have something that would link either Eunson or Colvin to your tree, they are unlikely to be relatives. There were lots of ex-pat Shetlanders in the North East (including mine).
Many possibilities as to why she gave that address, maybe she knew them and stayed a little while before the marriage to comply with the residence requirement for banns? Maybe she boarded with them while working in South Shields? Maybe in between census years William temporarily was living and working in South Shields and she did the same to be nearer to him? I wouldn't expect Robertina to be on an electoral roll at that time anyway as she would almost certainly not have qualified to vote.
Why has Margaret Ann Moore changed who her father was?
That's a really difficult one, there is evidence (census returns etc) to show that its likely to be the same woman on both marriages.
Do the ages on both marriage records match with what you'd expect? - or do they just have the old standby of 'of full age'. Any clues with the witnesses names? Any Thompsons on either record?
I'm not finding a marriage for Margaret (Ann) Thomson to a groom called Moor(e) in the right time frame for her to be a widow by 1855 but that in itself isn't conclusive (especially as I failed to find a death for James Denham).
Its not beyond the realms of possibility that an error was made in the register (the register details would have been written in advance ready for signing so its 'possible' whoever did that got mixed up and put the wrong father's name down) but I checked the registrars site and there were no Thompsons married in September in St Hilda's so that's a real long shot.
or maybe, just maybe (I do know a case where it happened) she'd discovered that the man she thought was her Dad, wasn't. Quite how you'd prove any of the possible scenarios I am not sure.
Will have a think and post back if I come up with any straws to be clutched.
Oh and question your parents exhaustively about any other certs/documents etc etc they may have squirrelled away ! :-)
A few years ago I asked Pa in law (after scanning the myriad of certificates, grave deeds etc etc they had) if I could have his permission to apply for a copy his RN service record. Oh said he, that's in the sideboard in the dining room. When I enquired as to why he hadn't mentioned it he replied that he didn't think anyone would be interested! What is gold dust to a researcher is just an old piece of paper to people who don't do this stuff :-)
Boo
-
Hi Boo,
I don't have the copies of the registers with me to see if their is a Thompson on either of them but you are correct about the age, it just says of full age.
I think for my next check I'll look in North Shields library and see if William English is on the voters register at his census address consistently or if he has lived in South Shields for any period between 1901 and 1911.
I definitely haven't come across the Eunson or Colvin names anywhere before so I really don't think there's any connection there.
I'll try doing a newspaper search as well and see if I can find anything about a death for James Denham - you never know.
I think her father's name is correct on the first register entry, maybe he'd died by then and she'd put a step father's name?
I'll have a look at the registers tonight when I get home.
Michael
-
Hi All,
A delayed reply but I've finally got to check the pages from the register again and their is no Thompson on the first one.
I have done a little more digging for James Denham, I checked some of the older census records and think I have found him with an occupation of merchant navy.
I've found some merchant navy records that match him on FindMyPast (even though his POB is Scotland he is recorded using a place of Tynemouth) but I'll have to wait until the weekend to get into the library to see what they are. I'm hoping they may name his wife or even have his death recorded.
Hope that might help focus things a bit.
Michael