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Research in Other Countries => Europe => Topic started by: alivin on Friday 16 June 17 03:00 BST (UK)
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Hi, just wondering if anybody can please help with deciphering/translating the attached Lillehammer parish arrival record for Johanna Danielsdotter and Johan Edvard Winger (#3 and 4 on the left hand side, under the year 1857). All I can make out is that Johanna came from Gotheborg and that they are both living in Lillehammer.
Appreciate any help!
Thanks :)
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Hi
Not easy to read unfortunately. This is my effort:
Housemaid Johanna Danielsdatter, 30 years old, hired in Lillehammer's ? (I cannot make out the next word.... Barn.....??) from Gothenburg.
Bachelor Johan Edvard Vinger from Christiania. 26 July 1833, christened 1848, 23 years old, hired as a tobacco spinner. (I couldn't make out the next column although I think the last word is short for Christiania).
I took a look in the books a little. You may have these:
Marriage: https://media.digitalarkivet.no/view/8936/43565/11
1865 Census: https://media.digitalarkivet.no/view/38053/45?indexing=
Ian
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Thanks so much for your help, that information ties in with what I already know :) And now I have a confirmation year for Johan which is great, thanks. I had already found their marriage and 1865 census records, appreciate you taking the time to look :)
I wonder if the words after Lillehammer (Barn ? something) for Johanna Danielsdatter, are in reference to her being with child but not married? Their first child was born only one week after their marriage in July 1857, and this record of their arrival in the parish in 1857 was done before they were married.
I would love to know what it says for Johanna in the last column (regarding certificates bought with them) as I have very little information to go on in order to trace her birth and family line back in Sweden. I can make out Gotheborg and what looks like 27 May 1854?
All I know about Johanna is that she was born in Gothenburg around 1825/1826. Her parents are listed as Anders Danielsen and Elene Danielsen on her NZ death certificate, which doesn't make much sense to me as I assumed with the surname Danielsdatter that her father would have been Daniel ???
Thanks again
Alicia
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Hi
Cheers.
I forgot about the last column. It does say as you wrote. It looks like the date she left Sweden.
I have access to the Swedish Church Books so I will take a look there to see if anything pops up.
Ian
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Yes you are right. I would also expect her father's name to be Daniel.
Ian
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I wonder if the words after Lillehammer (Barn ? something) for Johanna Danielsdatter,
After a long hard study I actually think it is "Bomuldspinder"...... cotton spinner.
Here is Johan's leaving record from "Garnisonsmenigheten Kirkebøker, Oslo" in 1854.....
https://media.digitalarkivet.no/view/612/4022/4 - bottom right.
Ian
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My Norwegian is extremely basic and rusty and I found the writing hard to decipher but am following this with interest. My sister lives in Gothenburg there is a very active Anglo Swedish society there .
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(I couldn't make out the next column although I think the last word is short for Christiania).[/i]
Just noticed what the column says: "Garnisonsmenigheten in Christiania"
Ian
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Thanks Ian, appreciate you taking the time to decipher the words and look for Johan's leaving record, which I didn't have, so that is very helpful :)
After looking carefully at the word and how the letters compare to others written on the page, I think you are right about Johanna's occupation being bomuldspinder. There does appear to have been a cotton mill in Lillehammer around that time.
I'll try taking a look at the Swedish records to see if I can find a possible leaving record for Johanna in Gothenburg - the problem is knowing which parish she came from. Not sure which parishes existed in the 1850s to help narrow down the list, might have to go through them all!
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You won't need to look in Sweden as I am already going through the books aithough unsuccessfully.
I have already gone through the Gothenburg Parishes with no result. I think she came from somewhere outside Gothenburg.
I will continue.
Ian
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Hi again
Did Johanna have a middle name?
Ian
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Hi, no she didn't I'm afraid, all records have her as Johanna Danielsdotter (or Danielsen).
I'm not sure if this will help, but I was just looking back through some information sent by a distant relative which said Johanna's brothers came out on the same ship with her to NZ. The names noted down were Arrd. Danielsen, Axel William Danielsen and John Alfred Danielsen. However, I couldn't find them on the ship's passenger list and looking at death records for Axel and John in NZ puts their birth years around 1858-1861, which makes them some 35 odd years younger than Johanna. So unlikely to be brothers, but possibly were related? I did find a passenger list record for a Johan A Danielsen who came out to Napier in NZ from Sweden in 1874 (Johanna came to Napier in 1872 with her husband and children). Another website says John was born 16 Oct 1857 in Säter, Älvsborg, Sweden. I couldn't find this particular place, but see there is an Älvsborg district in Gothenburg. And that the county of Älvsborg is now part of Västra Götaland. There is a Säter but it is in Dalarna county? All of this might be a long shot I know!
Thanks again for your help :)
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Hi
I took a look in Kungsäter Parish in Älvsborgs Län for a Johan August. There is a Johan August born on 15 Oct 1857 to a Carl Johan Andersson and Anna Britta Carlsdotter. This might be the one you mentioned.
Also, here is the passenger record from Copenhagen of Johan August Danielsen you also mentioned:
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01k9q/
Ian
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Yes, the details in that second passenger record for Johan August Danielsen do seem to match the one I found. I wonder though with that baptism record you mentioned, if his father was named Carl would his surname then be Carlsson?
What is interesting is that looking more in depth at this website I mentioned above, regarding Norwegian & Swedish immigrants to Norsewood in NZ, is in the footnotes for details regarding Johanna Danielsdotter's birth in 1826 in Gothenburg, it says the following:
Sten Aminoff, Svenskarna I Nya Zeeland: Den svenska utvandringen till Nya Zeeland fram till 1940, Page 122, no. 222.
"ANDERSDOTTER, Johanna 1826 Gbg S... also called Johanna DANIELSDOTTER."
So according to this book written by Sten Aminoff, Johanna was recorded as Johanna Andersdotter, which would tie in with her father being Anders as per her death certificate. No idea why she would have gone by Danielsdotter then ??? Rather confusing! Could it be she took the same surname as her father "Anders Danielsen" as per her death certificate but the female version of it?
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I took a look in Kungsäter Parish in Älvsborgs Län for a Johan August. There is a Johan August born on 15 Oct 1857 to a Carl Johan Andersson and Anna Britta Carlsdotter. This might be the one you mentioned.
I followed up on this Johan and according to the books he died in USA on 2 Sept 1895.
Ian
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So according to this book written by Sten Aminoff, Johanna was recorded as Johanna Andersdotter
I had seen that. I do think though it is strange that she might have changed her name although I do believe it to be not likely, but one never knows.
She had a "moving out" certificate with her when she moved to Norway. Her name and information would have been recorded on it and the Norwegian minister would have recorded what was on it.
Ian
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Thanks, I agree with you that it would be strange to change her name this way, so it may remain a mystery!
I guess the only thing I've got to go on is the date 27 May 1854 of her Gothenburg "moving out" certificate as noted in the Lillehammer parish record. Would this date be the date she left Gothenburg or the date the certificate was issued? Seeing as you haven't found her in the Gothenburg parish records so far, it is possible she went to Gothenburg from another parish first, before going to Lillehammer. The only record that states her birthplace was Gothenburg is her marriage record. All others I've found just say Sweden.
It is unfortunate that the minister's handwriting is so difficult to read, as would love to know what other words it says regarding this certificate, though they may not shed any further light at all.
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Hi
The date on the certificate would have been the date she left.
She may not have been born in Gothenburg and not even knowing when she moved away from home is a problem. I will keep looking. I have gone through many parishes so far without success...... unfortunately.
His handwriting is bad but I don't think it says that much really, just Gothenburg and the date.
I found their moving out record from Lillehammer 1866 (you may have this) ..... https://media.digitalarkivet.no/view/8936/43563/18 - nr 232-237
Ian
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Here is the "moving in" record from Lillehammer to Trefoldighet 1866 to accompany the record from previous post:
https://media.digitalarkivet.no/view/699/4368/11
Ian
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Thanks for finding those moving in and out records - I had recently found the moving in one but I hadn't found the moving out record, so cheers for that :)
Interesting how Johanna's age goes from 39 to 41 between the two records. I went back and looked at all the recorded ages I have, and the time period for her birth that makes her age correct in the majority of them is Jan - May 1826. I know ages are often out by a year or two but it gives a narrower time period to start with. I will keep hunting!
Thanks again for your help :)
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Cheers.
By locating these records I was hoping that one of them would either give a parish or even a birth date.
I will keep going, but after the Midsummer festivities here in Sweden.
Ian
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Thanks, enjoy the festivities! :)
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Hi
After a long study of the text I have now worked out what this says in the attest column for Johanna's moving in record to Lillehammer :
Attest: Götheborgs Pastorat af 27 mai 1854.
Nothing to go on unforunately.
Ian
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Hi
I have looked through the Gothenburg Parishes and only found 1 candidate that could well be your Johanna.
This Johanna Danielsdotter was born 23 June 1826 in Almesåkra. Her parents were Daniel Persson and Annica Jönsdotter. On 17 May 1851 she moved to Gothenburg Domkyrko Parish from Jönköping. She then moved to Copenhagen on 3 October 1853 only to return to Gothenburg Domkyrko Parish on 5 October 1853. She was then recorded as "missing". If this is your Johanna she could have left Gothenburg in 1854 as her document stated only for the minister to forget to record it. I haven't yet found a record of her leaving Gothenburg.
Ian
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Just checked up on her family. She had a sister and 2 brothers. Their names were Lena Stina Danielsdotter, Anders Danielsson and Jonas Gustaf Danielsson. With a bit of luck you may recognise some names from your tree.
Ian
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Wow, thanks for all that information, really appreciate you spending the time to try and track her down for me.
Daniel features as a middle name given to one of Johanna and Johan's children, as does Gustav. Annica doesn't feature however. What is interesting, though odd, is that Johanna's parents were listed as Anders and Elene on her death certificate, and this Johanna you found has a brother called Anders and a sister Lena (which is similar).
I will look into this Johanna's family and see if anything comes to light that links them to my tree. Hopefully she won't remain one of my brick walls!
Thanks again :)
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It seems natural to me that children would be named after their parents .
Or similar name ....I thought it was a common practice in Scandinavia too