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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => London and Middlesex => England => London & Middlesex Lookup Requests => Topic started by: AnneToday on Friday 09 June 17 20:13 BST (UK)
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Mary Theresa POLIN married Frederick C HARRIS in Mar Qtr 1939. Does anyone have this couple in their family tree, please? I think, Mary was alone in Maidenhead in the 1939 Register and Frederick was working in the City of London. Was this Frederick Charles HARRIS and did they both survive the war? Thank you.
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The 1939 National Register was compiled at the outbreak of war - in September!
So the happy couple should be together on the 1939 Register.
A birth registration:
June qtr 1906
Gravesend Registration District vol 2a, page 676
Polin, Mary Theresa
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Thank you KGarrard.
The marriage took place in the March quarter of 1939 and a baby was born in the September quarter. I understand from FindMyPast, if Frederick was working at his job (hotel waiter) and was living-in for that particular set of shifts, he would have been put on the hotel 1939 Register. Has anyone found this not to be the case?
Mary's birth is as you say.
:)
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The 1939 National Register wasn't a census - it wasn't important to know where people spent the night.
Having issued forms to more than 41 million people, the enumerators were charged with the task of visiting every household in Great Britain and Northern Ireland to collect the names, addresses, martial statuses and other key details of every civilian in the country, issuing identity cards on the spot.
The identity cards issued were essential items from the point the Register was taken right up until 1952, when the legal requirement to carry them ceased.
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OK, thank you, but Frederick is on the hotel list, as married, but there is no suitable Mrs Harris living at the hotel on the same list. (Thora A Harris was married to Arthur.) So, I need to check whether Mary Polin is his wife.
Unfortunately, there are over 50 possible marriages for Fred and I am trying to narrow the field before I begin to buy copies of marriage certs.
:)
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You say that Mary had a baby in Sept 1939,presumably before 29th Sept?
She will appear on the 1939 register with the babies name blanked out,unless it has been proved that the baby died before they stopped updating the register in 1991.
As she was a new mum it is also likely that she was moved to the country as it would have been so much safer than staying in London as the war began.
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"1 more person who is officially closed" - this is on Mary's record on the Register, so I presume it is the child, whose birth was registered in the September quarter.
When I said Mary was alone, I meant without Frederick. As Frederick was living-in as a hotel waiter, Mary may never have lived in The City with him. There was another baby in 1944, so this became a regular marriage, for wartime anyway.
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If her parents were Mary Catherine and Mathew, mother died Greenwich 1934 aged 56
Jennifer
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Yes, thank you, Jennifer, these are her parents. I've found Mathew and Mary with five children.
There's some confusion over the birth name - I have Mary Catherine on the 1911 Census and everything else, but Mary Theresa on the birth record. (Born in Gravesend, 1906 Vol 2a 676 - from FreeBMD and confirmed on Ancestry.)
The marriage details just say Mary Polin.
Do you have any details of Frederick, Mary's husband, please, - such as was his second name Charles and was he born in 1912?
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If her parents were Mary Catherine and Mathew, mother died Greenwich 1934 aged 56
Jennifer
And her father died ....both are buried in Greenwich Cemetery as per www.deceasedonline.co.uk
Deaths Mar 1940
Polin Matthew age 71 Greenwich 1d 1690
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Thank you all. I now have everything I need about Mary, except details of her husband - shown as Frederick C Harris.
Note: Mary died in 1956, Mar Qtr, Greenwich 5c 745. I have no details of whether she was a widow at this point.
I've tried the deceasedonline link for their graves etc., but drawn a blank.
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Just a quick search of the Electoral Registers on A*try:
1949-1952 65 St John's Park Greenwich
Mary Theresa Harris and Frederick Charles Harris
13 Fairlawn Court Greenwich
1954-1956 Mary T Harris and Frederick C Harris
1961-1965
Frederick C Harris and the daughter born 1939.
Maureen
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Thank you Maureen. This can't be my Frederick, as he was not alive after the war. However, it has eliminated him from the list and taken me a step nearer the right uncle.
Thank you everyone.
Anne.
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Did your uncle have any children?
If so, finding them on FreeBMD will show their mother's maiden name.
And from that, you can try to find a potential marriage.
If Frederick died during WW2, does the Commonwealth War Graves Commission mention him? and is their a next-of-kin mentioned?
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I didn't even think he was married; I heard he 'died in the war' and 'the war' was not something anyone mentioned much. However, the 1939 Register, with his correct dob, says he was married.
For family reasons I am sure he did not have a son - to carry on the name, which has now died out from our genes line.
I've tried the CWGC with no luck and I've checked the next of kin on the army records and none match my Fred. I suspect he was 'not fit to fight' for some reason as he was ARP for the hotel where he was a waiter. This was added to the Register after the initial listing - different writing. I have contacted the hotel - Great Eastern London, but they have been taken over and have no records.
My one hope is to get the railway workers' salary records, but these are not on line and it would mean buying about 7 photocopied sets to try to find him, always assuming he was a permanent employee who would show on the records.
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So we've been chasing the wrong couple then?
Best to start again,go right back to the beginning, and let us know what you do know for certain.
What's Fred's date of birth and who were his parents.
Can you tell us where he was in 1939 please? Doing what job?
You think he died during WW2?
Carol
Ahaha I have found further info on the chap we are trying to find,on this thread.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=747248.25
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http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=747248.msg5947675#msg5947675
Link to previous topic I raised and closed in 2016. I thought I had a new lead with Mary Polin. I have no interest in going over this old ground, but thank you for the offer.
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The parents Matthew & Mary Catherine Polin are in plot F287 in the Catholic SEction of the cemetery.
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Mary Theresa Harris, Housewife, of 13 Fairlawn Court, SE7 was buried in Greenwich Cemetery in a common plot B252 on 12 January 1956.
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I followed this thread and read your other regarding Frederick Charles Harris b.29/1/1912 and how you were surprised to find he was 'married' on the 1939 register and believe he died in WW2.
I appreciate all you have said about his family and that they said he was killed in the war.
However, there was only the one Frederick C. Harris birth in Mar.qtr.1912 Norfolk and that is definitely your man (mmn Mears).
Having established via different sources that there was no death for a Frederick C. Harris b.1912 during the war years in UK or on CWGC doubts were expressed that did he indeed die then.
As a result of this I noted a Frederick C. Harris death in Fakenham regn. district in Dec.1966 whose born was 1912 - I decided to send for the death certificate because this whole scenario kept going round and round in my head.
The certificate arrived today - Frederick Charles Harris aged 54 of 6 Waveney Road, Hunstanton, Norfolk died 17/10/1966. His occupation is 'Dining Car Attendant' and the informant of his death is a G R Harris, son of same address.
You must admit, the occupation matches what you know of Frederick Charles i.e. working for the railway and a waiter in railway hotel in 1939.
Frederick Charles Harris appears to have married an Ethel F. Ginn in Dec.qtr.1936 Docking, Norfolk - in 1939 you know he was in a hotel in London, and Ethel is shown living in Hunstanton. There are 3 closed records who may or may not have been children of theirs - there were certainly children born after 1939 one of whom has the initials G R (I won't name as probably still living) born in 1942. Another son in 1946 with initials L C (the L being the Christian name of one of your Frederick's brothers).
On paper, everything we now know about this Frederick Charles Harris matches the details of your man. You say the family were very closeknit etc. but perhaps something happened and he became estranged from his family because of this and it was easier for them to explain away that he'd died during the war (of which there is no trace) to account for his absence in the family. Can only hypothesize of course but with a closeknit family like this they'd surely have known precisely when/where he died rather than a vague 'he died in the war'. Perhaps the family didn't approve of his wife for some reason and this caused the initial 'rift'. Certainly, you yourself were surprised to see he was married when you found him on the 1939 Register in London, hence this thread regarding Mary Polin who you were considering may have been said wife.
I feel certain that the man who died in Hunstanton in 1966 is indeed your man - that he married Ethel F. Ginn in 1936 Docking and when your man is living/working in London in a railway hotel in 1939 she is living as head of the household in Hunstanton with possible child/children (incorrectly transcribed as Ethel T. rather than Ethel F.).
I wasn't sure whether to post this on your Frederick Charles Harris thread of last year but in the end decided as this was your most recent thread regarding him and the subject being considered as a possible 'wife' for him that perhaps it was more prudent to post it here.
I can't make you believe me, of course, but I certainly feel there was more to the situation than the family revealed and that your Frederick was indeed the man who died in Hunstanton in 1966.
Annette
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But for Frederick C Harris in Norfolk there is only -
Birth, March 1912 Downham - mother Mears
Marriage, Dec 1936 Docking - to Ethel F Ginn
Death, Dec 1966 Fakenham - age 54
Wonderful gesture from Annette to get the death certificate, she did a similar thing recently for someone else. Take my hat off to her.
Disappointed to find out that Anne seems to have rejected what I and others said on the other thread, including the Hunstanton link.
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Thank you for your kind comments, jonw65 - my sending for the death certificate was purely for my own sanity. Everything pointed to FCH being the man who died in Hunstanton so wanted to see what details of this man were, his occupation, whether married, etc. Did he bear any resemblance to the man with same name born 29/1/1912?
When I saw his occupation was 'Dining Car Attendant' it was surely him - what are the odds of 2 men with the exact same name, both born 1912, following the same type of occupation?
I would suggest AnneToday obtains the marriage certificate for Frederick Charles Harris and Ethel F. Ginn which will answer the question once and for all.
Annette
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When I saw his occupation was 'Dining Car Attendant' it was surely him - what are the odds of 2 men with the exact same name, both born 1912, following the same type of occupation?
I would suggest AnneToday obtains the marriage certificate for Frederick Charles Harris and Ethel F. Ginn which will answer the question once and for all.
Annette
Well done,Annette! Talk about RAOGKsanity. ;)
Perfict fit and correct.
Maureen
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Thank you all for your replies and your investigations, but I have been deep in other matters and have not checked the Forum for several days.
A special thank you to you, Annette7, for your time and efforts, and your cost.
Give me a little while and I'll look into all the information you've given me and see what I can put together and come back when I can add something to the jigsaw. Sadly there is now no-one alive to ask the obvious questions.
Anne
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I would suggest AnneToday obtains the marriage certificate for Frederick Charles Harris and Ethel F. Ginn which will answer the question once and for all.
Annette
AnneToday, all you need to do now is to spend £9-25 from the GRO on the marriage cert of Frederick and Ethel (using the details below) and it will answer your questions,which to me looks like an open and shut case!
Marriages Dec 1936
Ginn Ethel F to Harris Docking 4b 886
Harris Frederick C to Ginn Docking 4b 886
Carol
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Hi Annetoday,
Hope you are still checking this thread. Did you ever get the 1936 marriage cert,and did it confirm anything for you. It's nice to know if we've been barking up the correct tree with all our hard work.
;D
Carol
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Hi, Probably not relevant now but, Mary Theresa Polin born 1906 to Matthew Polin and Mary Catherine Braniff was my husbands Great Aunt. My husband was born in Australia and never met Mary. There is family still living in London related to Mary. Mary's parents were very strict Catholic's and never attended their son Hugh's wedding or have anything to do with his children (my mother in law), as Hugh did not marry a Catholic or raise in children in there church, so our branch don't know a great deal. There are descendants of Mary and Hugh's other siblings that did stay in touch with the family in London.
sharon
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Hi Sharon
According to her profile, Anne hasn't been online here since last October.
She should have received an email notification that you have posted and hopefully come back soon but if she doesn't, you could try sending her a personal message.
Dawn