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Old Photographs, Recognition, Handwriting Deciphering => Handwriting Deciphering & Recognition => Topic started by: Lees Lady on Tuesday 06 June 17 13:22 BST (UK)

Title: Place of Birth of Elizabeth Jane Lees
Post by: Lees Lady on Tuesday 06 June 17 13:22 BST (UK)
I have the death certificate of Elizabeth Jane Lees.  I can't make out where it says her place of birth is.  I believe she was born in the United Kingdom, but I'm not sure what this specifically says.

Thank you for your deciphering help!

Title: Re: Place of Birth of Elizabeth Jane Lees
Post by: PaulineJ on Tuesday 06 June 17 13:25 BST (UK)
The closest sensible suggestion I can get is Ireland.
Although the second letter looks more like a h than an r
Title: Re: Place of Birth of Elizabeth Jane Lees
Post by: a-l on Tuesday 06 June 17 13:33 BST (UK)
Ireland possibly but that second letter is a problem :-\ at first I thought it was Thailand  ;D
Title: Re: Place of Birth of Elizabeth Jane Lees
Post by: aghadowey on Tuesday 06 June 17 13:36 BST (UK)
The closest sensible suggestion I can get is Ireland.
Although the second letter looks more like a h than an r

Agree that it's probably a badly written Ireland but the surname is Lee not Lees.
Title: Re: Place of Birth of Elizabeth Jane Lees
Post by: bugbear on Tuesday 06 June 17 15:22 BST (UK)
I'm confident the second letter is 'h' - compare with "South" on "street and number". Very good match.

 BugBear
Title: Re: Place of Birth of Elizabeth Jane Lees
Post by: bugbear on Tuesday 06 June 17 15:27 BST (UK)
If the last written word for Ward: is (indeed) "Ward", the last letter of our word must also be 'd'.

 BugBear
Title: Re: Place of Birth of Elizabeth Jane Lees
Post by: bugbear on Tuesday 06 June 17 15:28 BST (UK)
Overall, I think it says "Iheland", i.e. Ireland with a 'h' in it, perhaps the writer just typo'd (if you see what I mean).

 BugBear
Title: Re: Place of Birth of Elizabeth Jane Lees
Post by: a-l on Tuesday 06 June 17 18:34 BST (UK)
I'm wondering if it the pronunciation was to blame. I seem to recall people who said Ihreland. ???
Title: Re: Place of Birth of Elizabeth Jane Lees
Post by: Girl Guide on Wednesday 07 June 17 00:04 BST (UK)
There is a better record of this death on Family Search and it states her place of birth is Ireland.

The record is Philadelphia City Death Certificates 1803 to 1915

Hopefully the below link will take you to the record:-

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-677W-8PH?i=398&cc=1320976
Title: Re: Place of Birth of Elizabeth Jane Lees
Post by: aghadowey on Wednesday 07 June 17 12:35 BST (UK)
There is a better record of this death on Family Search and it states her place of birth is Ireland.

The record is Philadelphia City Death Certificates 1803 to 1915

Hopefully the below link will take you to the record:-

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-677W-8PH?i=398&cc=1320976

Yes, little doubt from both records that she was born in Ireland but as I stated earlier her surname is LEE not Lees.
Title: Re: Place of Birth of Elizabeth Jane Lees
Post by: Lees Lady on Wednesday 07 June 17 22:23 BST (UK)
I think Lee might be a transcription error.  In my ancestry research, I have seen this error often for Lees. Elizabeth Jane Lees' address was listed on her toddler son's (Samuel Lees, death 1871) death certificate. It was almost exactly the same as the one on this death certificate.

Her death record says Rear South 610.

Her son's death certificate says Back South 634, a year prior.

It seems like too big of a coincidence for for there to be a Elizabeth Jane Lees with practically the same address as a Elizabeth Jane Lee.  Plus, I can't find any other record of  Elizabeth Jane Lee other than this death record, while I can find others of Elizabeth Jane Lees...although it is frustrating because sometimes she is listed as Jane Lees and sometimes she is listed as Elizabeth Lees. She is also buried in the same cemetery as the toddler son (Samuel) that died, and her baby Thomas.

If anyone is up for this challenge, if she was born in Ireland, could you try to find one of the following:

Her birth/baptism record

Marriage record (husband James Lees, born 1831 in England.  He immigrated to the US in 1858)

Her immigration record

Unfortunately, I don't know her maiden name.

Thank you for any assistance!
Title: Re: Place of Birth of Elizabeth Jane Lees
Post by: aghadowey on Wednesday 07 June 17 22:41 BST (UK)
Both records give her surname as LEE not Lees so it is not a transcription error although possibly just someone writing the wrong name. Mount Moriah is a huge cemetery so that doesn't prove a connection but a match for the address makes it much more likely.

Registration of births in Ireland started in 1864 and for baptism record you'll need to know her maiden name, where the family lived (parish if not actual townland not just the county) and their religion- and then see what records might exist (not all records survive and of those that do not all are online).

If husband was born in England and she in Ireland it's likely they married in Philadelphia or at least U.S.
Title: Re: Place of Birth of Elizabeth Jane Lees
Post by: Lees Lady on Wednesday 07 June 17 22:52 BST (UK)
Yes, you are right. I meant handwriting error. Here is an example of the kind of error I find.

I can't attach the actual record, but for the toddler's death certificate, it lists his last name as Lee but both his parents are listed as Lees. 

Name   Samuel Lee
Birth Date   abt 1870
Birth Place   Phila
Death Date   9 Aug 1871
Death Place   Philadelphia, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania
Age at Death   1 year 4 months 21 days
Burial Date   10 Aug 1871
Burial Place   Philadelphia, Pennsylvania
Gender   Male
Race   White
Street Address   back 634 South St
Cemetery   Mount Moriah
Father   James Lees
Mother   Jane Lees
FHL Film Number   2020944

This mistake happens all the time and makes it pretty challenging to search for records.  I've also seen it written Lers and Lus. Ugh.

I've been searching for Elizabeth Jane ???? just about everywhere.  Pennsylvania, England, Scotland, Ireland.  There is one record of a James Lees marrying an Elizabeth J Berk in 1858 in Pennsylvania, but I can't find any other record about her other than that.  Any suggestions on how to find a woman's maiden name?

Title: Re: Place of Birth of Elizabeth Jane Lees
Post by: Nailer1 on Thursday 08 June 17 16:54 BST (UK)
Regarding the marriage between James Lees and Elizabeth J Berk,  if that happens to be them,  perhaps the name Berk could have been written as a phonetic version of Burke,  a common name in Ireland.  I have never come across the name Berk in Ireland.