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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Staffordshire => England => Staffordshire Lookup Requests => Topic started by: Lees Lady on Friday 02 June 17 05:25 BST (UK)
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I have been trying to trace my husband's great great great grandfather (James Lees, b: 1825) back to England. I know he immigrated to the United States in 1858 (I think on the Aurora, from Liverpool to NY), but I can't definitively pinpoint him back in England. So now I using process of elimination by finding any James Lees in England that fits the profile, and then ruling them out or in.
According to the 1851 Census, James Lees and Ann Lees lived on Albert Street in Harborne, Staffordshire.
James Lees
Age 26 (I believe my relative's birth year is 1825, possibly born in January)
Occupation: Cordwinder, Cordwainer, Shoemaker (this matches "My" James Lees)
Born: Slitting Mill, Stafford
Ann ?? (maiden name unknown)
Age: 24 (so birth year, abt 1827.
Born: Smethwick, Staffordshire
I'm searchinf for records for either of them before or after the 1851 census. Would love to find a marriage record and/or trace them back to their birth families. Also, would love to know if there is anything about them afterwards. *My* James Lees immigrated in 1858, but I found no record of an Ann immigrating with him. Maybe she died? If we find record of James and Ann Lees after 1858 in England, then I will know that this isn't my relative.
I found an 1841 census record for a James Lees who was 15 living in Slitting Mill, Rugeley...so that fits this person. Parents are listed as William and Sarah Lees.
I found it very difficult to trace a relative back from the US to the UK. Especially with a name like James Lees. I found plenty of men named James Lees, but have no idea how to determine which one is him!!
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Welcome to rootscharpt Lees Lady.
Freereg has a marriage in West Bromwich between James Lees and Ann Rhodes in 1847. This James is a cordwainer:
https://www.freereg.org.uk/search_records/581875b0e93790eb7fdc1471?search_id=5930e9d44325a6369b34a195&ucf=false
There is further information in the register so you can see if that matches with what you know about your James. It looks good age and date wise, and with fathers named you might be able to find them at home with their families in 1841. :)
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1841
Slitting Mill
William Lees 45 labourer
Sarah 50
James 15
Samuel 12
HO107/973//27/19
All born in county
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I am having a really hard time trying to definitively trace my husband's great great great grandfather back to England. His name is James Lees.
Born: 1825 (possibly January)
Immigrated to the United States: 1858
(I found one passenger that has a James Lees on the Aurora in 1858 from Liverpool to New York. He seems to be travelling with a Samuel Lees, who is listed as a barber. James Lees occupation is listed as shoemaker.
Occupation: Shoemaker, Cordwainer, Cordwinder
Death: Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 1904
On 1860 census record in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, he is listed with an baby (William J. Lees) (b 1859). This census record says William J Lees was born in Scotland, but all later census records give his place of birth as Pennsylvania.
Really appreciate any help finding out which James Lees in England is my James Lees in the United States.
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There is a William John Lees, b 1860 High Church,Glasgow,Lanark,Scotland. Father James Lees, mother Susan Ewing.
James Lees married Susan Ewing 22 JUN 1855 High Church,Glasgow,Lanark,Scotland
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Also on Freereg is a burial for Ann Lees in 1857. This Ann is aged 31, so fits in age wise for her to be the wife of James, though there is nothing to identify her as such on the index.
You may need to purchase the death certificate for proof, if you believe this looks likely to be her. A d/c may say she was the wife of James Lee, cordwainer. :-\
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I can't easily find Ann Rhodes with father Edward, on the 1841 and 1851 censuses, though I have not searched thoroughly.
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So can we forget the Scotland link that you put in your previous post?
Threads merged to prevent duplication.
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1841 Census
West Bromwich, Staffordshire
Edward Rhodes, 30, Blacksmith, NOT born in County
Sarah Rhodes, 35
Eliza Rhodes, 13
Sarah Rhodes, 10
Mary Rhodes, 6
Harriot Rhodes, 5
Edward Rhodes, 2
Death Reg GRO Index;
RHODES, EDWARD, age 40****
GRO Reference: 1841 S Quarter in WEST BROMWICH Volume 18 Page 362
Birth Reg GRO Index
RHODES, EDWARD, Mothers mn WALKER****
GRO Reference: 1839 M Quarter in WEST BROMWICH Volume 18 Page 581
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1851 Census
Sarah Rhodes, 47, Widow, Laundress, born West Bromwich, Staffordshire
Harriet Rhodes, 14
Edward Rhodes, 12
MARRIAGE;
13 September 1824, Saint Matthew, Walsall, Stafford, England
Edward ROADS to Sarah WALKER
(Familysearch.Org)
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It seems like there may be a bit of confusion, and you should stick to solid proof/documentation.
If your James went to America in 1858, he is unlikely to be having children in scotland in 1859/1860.
What are the sources of your information?
You have two very similar threads which may cause confusion. I will ask a moderator to merge the two. :)
Threads merged.
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So can we forget the Scotland link that you put in your previous post?
This thread appeared before the other one. ;)
I have requested that the two threads be merged, as it is already causing a bit of confusion having two such similar threads. (I'm confused anyway :P )
I may be wrong, but I am guessing that the OP may have found reference to James Lees being in Scotland, perhaps on someone else's tree? It seems there is a mix up, which the purchase of some certificates should help iron out. ;)
It is possible that the immigration year is incorrect. It is worth looking into the James Lees in Scotland to see what his occupation is, and who his father is.
(Thank you for merging the topics mod) :)
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Let me see if I can clear up some of the confusion...:)
Cross=posting: The reason I cross-posted is because the James Lees in Staffordshire is not the only James Lees I am looking into. I've seen other men named James Lees from Lancashire, Derbyshire, Manchester and London that could be our ancestor. I did post here first because I wanted to rule in or out this specific James Lees, but with this topic merged only into Staffordshire, I can't really get broader help with the rest. I did think this James Lees might be my best lead, but I'm not positive the other candidates aren't him.
Scotland birth of William J Lees: On the United States 1860 census record in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, James Lees is listed with a baby named William J Lees. The census record indicates he was born in Scotland. This same William Lees is on an 1870s census record, but on that one he is listed as having been born in Pennsylvania. On 1860s census record, it is unclear who the mother is, as William J is listed second, and then there is a woman named Elizabeth who is listed third, and under her is another baby named Charles Williams (not William) so it seems unlikely that she could be the mother of both. I could not find a birth certificate or death certificate for him, but I did find the death certificates for his two younger brothers. While unfortunately, they don't give the Mother's name, they indicate that her birthplace was Scotland.
The mystery is how is it possible he was born in Scotland if James Lees immigrated in 1858? Maybe his mother still lived in Scotland and James Lees went back for a visit after immigrating and that's when his wife got pregnant? Maybe he wasn't really born in Scotland, but it seems like a odd mistake to make on a census record in Pennsylvania?
Second Wife/Birth Mother, Elizabeth Lees or Jane Lees or Elizabeth Jane Lees: If the Staffordshire James Lees is the right guy, then Ann must have died, or he divorced and he married again. It is possible that the Elizabeth in the 1860 census record, and the Jane listed in the 1870s census record are the same person. And they just have some variation of the name (i.e. Elizabeth Jane, Jane Elizabeth, etc.) I don't know whether they married while still in the UK or once they came to the United States. I can't find a marriage record. I am DYING to find out who this woman is! For her, it may extend into looking into Scotland records, but no idea how to track her down at all!!
Would LOVE help from people who are more experienced at this than I am!
Records/Clues:
I have the following documents that I want to attach, but it doesn't seem to be letting me. I've been clicking "Attachments and other options" but then it just stays on this post? I will try figure it out but may not be attachment to this post.
1841 Staffordshire Census
1851 Staffordshire Census
1860 US Census Records
1870 Us Census Records
1858 Passenger List (James Lees, travelling with a Samuel Lees, who I assumed is his brother but no proof of that. The ages don't line up perfectly with the 1841 census records, but I thought they were close enough that they could be the same two people.)
Death Certificates of 2 of James Lees sons, (both state that their mother was born in Scotland. Unfortunately, the don't provide the mother's maiden or first name.)
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Thank you for the explanations, and being so clear in your replies Lees Lady. :)
I take it that you are looking at all the James Lees as you are unsure of the origins of your James? Is the James Lees in Philadelpia definitely your James? I think you might be missing a step in going directly to England/Scotland and you might need another clue from the US side before you can look to English/Scottish records to find your James. Others may have different opinions or ideas to chase up.
You are not allowed to post entire census records on rootschat for copyright reasons, but you can post sections of the appropriate records. Anyone who is interested is probably able to look them up, or maybe someone (cleverer than me ;)) would be willing to post them for you.
I think that keeping the search for the right James in one place makes it easier to follow, and most of us can help with research in England as well as Scotland. :) We can always request that the thread be moved again if needed.
Added: May I request that you compile a brief time line of your Lees family? You can mention what facts and documents you have (eg certificates) and where any gaps are. Setting it out like this might help make it clearer.
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The James Lees you have found in the 1860 US census is dittoed from the household above, and is indexed as James Lees Foley.
William J is dittoed too, so his name looks to be William J Foley.
The woman, Elizabeth (surname also dittoed, so is Foley), is said to be born in "Penna" which I am assuming in Pennsylvania?
Charles Williams who looks to be four months old and also born in Penna, is not dittoed. His surname looks to be Williams.
There are other James Lees on the 1860 census. How did you decide that this one might be your James?
You say you have William J in the US 1870 census - do you also have James Lees in 1870? I am having trouble finding William J with "Jane" in 1870 - who else is living with them? Where are they living?
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These maybe the James and Samuel on the passenger list.
In the 1851 census, Castle Gable, 27, St Pauls, Perthshire, Scotland
James Lees, b 1826, Shopman.
Samuel Lees. b 1841, Sholar.
Father John Lees, b 1799 Comb Maker & Hardware 1 Man.
Mother Jane Lees, b 1797.
Six other siblings,
Henry R, b 1824.
William, b 1830.
Rachel, b 1835.
Elisebeth, b 1835.
Jane M, b 1837.
Ann, b 1839.
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Here is the lineage of the Philadelphia James Lees to my husband.
James Lees, (1825 England - 1904 Pennsylvania)
Married to Ann ??
Married to Jane/Elizabeth ???
Married in 1873 to Susannah Gessler (1837 - 1898)
father of
James Henry Lees 1865 - 1904 (both Pennsylvania)
Mother, Jane??
Married in 1886 to Mary Rothery (1866, Yorkshire England - 1931 Philadelphia)
father of
James J Lees (1892 - 1865)
father of
James Lees (1918 - 2008)
father of
John Lees (1940 - present)
father of
John Lees (1969 - present), my husband
Immigration records of James Lees
His death certificate states he came to the US in 1858. So I found this matching immigration record.
James Lee
(Lee is a transcription error. On the actual record it says Lees)
Age 32
Country of Origin: England
Arrival: Jan 15 1858
Port of Arrival: New York, New York
Port of Departure: Liverpool, England
Ship: Aurora
Occupation: Shoemaker
Under him is listed
Samuel Lees
Age 30
All the same information is James except career is barber
May be just a coincidence, but above James is another person listed as a shoemaker.
John Crowley, Age 19, England
1870 US Census Record Philadelphia Ward 18 Dist 53 (2nd Enum)
Hard to read the street, but I think it says Sarah or Sarrah St.
Lees James 43 1825 Male
Lees Jane 39 1831 Female
Lees William 11 1859 Male
Lees George 9 1861 Male
Lees James 7 1863 Male
Lees Samuel 1 1869 Male
I did notice that the 1860 census is indexed wrong. It should not say Foley after their last name. It does seem as though they may have lived with the Foleys, but I don't see the address on the census record.
1860s US Census Record Pennsylvania, Philadelphia Ward 1 Precinct 8
Lees James 35 1825 Male England
Lees William 9/12 1859 Male Scotland
Lees Elizabeth 31 1829 Female Pennsylvania
Williams Charles 4/12 1860 Male Pennsylvania
1880 US Census Pennsylvania, Philadelphia Enumeration District 685
Lees James Male 55 1825 Self Married England England England
Lees Sussie Female 42 1838 Wife Married Pennsylvania Maryland New Jersey
Lees William J. Male 20 1860 Son Single Pennsylvania England Maryland
Lees George W. Male 18 1862 Son Single Pennsylvania England Maryland
Lees James H. Male 16 1864 Son Single Pennsylvania England Maryland
Lees Laura L. Female 5 1875 Daugh Single Pennsylvania England Maryland
Lees Mary R. Female 3 1877 Daugh Single Pennsylvania England Maryland
Here are the mysteries I'm trying to solve:
Trace definitely the James Lees of 1825 back to England.
Who is Elizabeth?
Who is Jane? When did she and James marry? While it would be great to determine if she is the mother of William J, my main focus is on James Henry, because he is husband's direct ancestor. On the death certificates of George W and James Henry they list their mother's country of origin as Scotland.
Ancillary details:
I could not find birth or baptism records for William J., George W. or James Henry, but I did find them for their two younger brothers who were also born to a James and Jane Lees.
Samuel Lees
Parents: James and Jane Lees
Birth 19 Mar 1870 • Philadelphia
Baptism
5 Jun 1870 • Philadelphia , Penns
Old St. George Methodist Episcopal Church
Death
9 Aug 1871 • Philadelphia, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania
Burial
10 Aug 1871 • Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, Mount Moriah
Name Thomas Lees
Birth Date abt 1866
Birth Place Philadelphia PA
Death Date 25 Nov 1868
Death Place Philadelphia, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania
Age at Death 2
Burial Date 29 Nov 1868
Burial Place Philadelphia PA
Gender Male
Race White
Cemetery Mount Moriah
Father James Lees
Mother Jane Lees
Church of Record: Roman Catholic, Church of the Evangelist This might be a good clue because it indicates that they were Catholic.
Common Misspellings: I have seen Lees misspelled as Lee, Lers, Lus, Leese, so that definitely makes things tricky when trying to find accurate records. I think that is why you couldn't find the 1870 census, I believe the transcription has it misspelled as one of those variations, at least on Ancestry.com.
Thanks for the help!!
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That makes it all much clearer - thanks Lees Lady.
Something that struck me when reading (skimming) through, which I'm sure you've already considered, and that is, children living in a family are sometimes not the children of the adults, the adults may not be married, and the women may not be the mothers to the children with them on the census. :P
Having Methodists and Catholics may, or may not, make record finding more difficult.
I know it is all you have to go on at the moment, but it is quite common for information supplied at death, by a third party, to be wrong.
I will have a closer look later when I have more time. :)