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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Aberdeenshire => Topic started by: BrisbaneHay on Sunday 21 May 17 08:05 BST (UK)
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Have had trouble finding parents of my Alex Hay Ch. 23/12/1840, at Aberdeen. He married Marjory Bruce and had Marjory ( re-named Jane) and Alexander.
The most likely parents are listed below: Alexander Hay was christened at Old Machar Parish on 17.8.1811. Parents were Adam Hay and Jean Milne married 25.4.1809 at New Machar and Peterhead. Known siblings were Charles Stephen (ch. 18.4.1813), Elizabeth (ch. 30.7.1814) and Adam (ch. 7.3.1823). Adam Jnr would have been aged 15 when Marjory was christened and age 18 for the 1841 census. Adam Hay (senior) was possibly ch.5 or 25.4.1786 at Glenbucket, Aberdeen- parents being Adam Hay and Elizabeth Ogg. Adam Snr or Jnr could have been the witness for the christening of Margory (Jane/Jean). On balance, this may be our Family.
Any help?
Gary
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Hi Gary
Have had trouble finding parents of my Alex Hay Ch. 23/12/1840, at Aberdeen. He married Marjory Bruce and had Marjory ( re-named Jane) and Alexander.
I'm a wee bit confused....
Alexander HAY chr 23 Dec 1840
(https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XY65-PRJ
Father Alexander HAY and mother: Marjory BRUCE
(Also wondering what the full story is about changing the name of a child from 'Marjory' to 'Jane'? - and whose daughter was she?)
Cheers
AMBLY
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Have had trouble finding parents of my Alex Hay Ch. 23/12/1840, at Aberdeen. He married Marjory Bruce and had Marjory ( re-named Jane) and Alexander.
The most likely parents are listed below: Alexander Hay was christened at Old Machar Parish on 17.8.1811. Parents were Adam Hay and Jean Milne married 25.4.1809 at New Machar and Peterhead. Known siblings were Charles Stephen (ch. 18.4.1813), Elizabeth (ch. 30.7.1814) and Adam (ch. 7.3.1823). Adam Jnr would have been aged 15 when Marjory was christened and age 18 for the 1841 census. Adam Hay (senior) was possibly ch.5 or 25.4.1786 at Glenbucket, Aberdeen- parents being Adam Hay and Elizabeth Ogg. Adam Snr or Jnr could have been the witness for the christening of Margory (Jane/Jean). On balance, this may be our Family.
Any help?
Gary
Yes, I agree your post has been written confusingly.
Yep, you clearly know who the parents were for your Alexander christened 23/12/1840......it is these parents that you want to know their parents. So what I would do is.....buy the death certificates for Alexander Hay, and Marjorie Bruce. See how long they lived via census and that will give you a window to narrow down your death search.
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Some of this has been discussed previously -
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=672489.msg5179332#msg5179332
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Ambly
Thanks for reply.
Christening records show Marjory, but 1841 census shows Jean. 1851 census shows Jane and marriage records show Jane. (try Jane/Jean with a Scottish accent). As far as I can tell mum and dad were as per records.
Thanks
Gary
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Kenjo
Thanks for interest.
Alex died soon after 1841 census. Marjory (wife re-married about 1846). No death records are available. He lived in Red Lion Inn, cnr Love Lane.
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Isobelw
Yes. That was me that posted that post. Solved that query. Thanks to all who assisted.
I am now trying to dig one more level back.
To provide all the information I have would have turned most people off.
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Let's go back to basics.
Alexander Hay and Marjory Bruce were married in Aberdeen on 29 October 1836 and had two recorded children
Marjory, baptised 5 October 1838, St Nicholas
Alexander, baptised 23 December 1840, St Nicholas
The census lists at Love Lane, Spittal, Old Machar
Alexander Hay, 30, mason; Marjory Hay, 30; George Hay, 10; Jean Hay, 5; Alexander Hay, 5 months.
Marjory, born 1838, would have been only 2 on census day 1841. Jean/Jane, if aged 5 on census day 1841, would have been born between 8 June 1835 and 7 June 1836, but in any case before Alexander married Marjory. Therefore I do not think that Jean is Marjory with a change of name. Checking the burial records might shed some light on this.
So who, then, are George and Jean? They could be Alexander's children by a previous marriage, Marjory's children by a previous marriage, or they could be illegitimate children of one or both of Alexander or Marjory.
What evidence do you have for thinking that Alexander's parents were Adam Hay and Jean Milne?
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Forfarian
Thanks for interest.
The 1841 census rules were that anyone up to 15 years old was listed as their age, over age 15 were rounded down to closest 5 years. This would explain the age of mother. Marjory. Checked neighbors and all had children aged 5 or 10- suspect that rules were not followed correctly. As Marjory was born in 1813 according to death certificate, an age of 25 years would be more logical for her.
George in census is son of Alexander from a previous marriage. A George Hay christening was found for 29/5/1827 at Aberdeen. “Alexander Hay, mason, and his spouse Grace Farquhar had a son born named George baptised by the ? Bishop Skinner in presence of James ? and George Davidson masons”. I cannot find any record of this marriage, or birth of Grace.
Regarding Marjory/Jean/Jane: death records were not kept in those years- burial records are minimal. JANE HAY, b. 1838; m. GEORGE KERR, 10 August 1860, Red Lion Inn, Spital, Aberdeen.
Marriage Notes for JANE HAY and GEORGE KERR:
Old Machar/1860/116 on 10th August, 1860 at Red Lion Inn, Spital, Old Aberdeen
George Kerr aged 31 years, Beach Battery, Links, Aberdeen sergeant royal artillery, bachelor, father John Kerr tailor master, deceased, mother Elizabeth Kerr, nee Stewart; married Jane Hay aged 22 years of Red Lion Inn Spital, Old Aberdeen, dress maker spinster; father Alexander Hay road contractor deceased; mother Marjory Ross, previously Hay, nee Bruce. married by Ch Skene, minister of John Knox Church, witnesses Alexr. McGregor, and James Bisset.
St Nicholas 5th October, 1838
Alexander Hay mason and his spouse Marjory Bruce had a daughter born and baptised by the Reverend William ----- by the name of Marjory in presence of William Chrie and Adam Hay laborer.
These records make it most likely that Marjory/Jean and Jane were the same person. Maybe baptism was delayed after birth.
The Adam Hay/Jean Milne connection is as follows: The above baptism records show an Adam Hay, laborer as a witness. Have assumed he was a brother. Looked up all Alex and Adam Hay that were brothers and found 2.
The Adam listed as the brother of Alexander (Hay/Milne marriage) above, would have been aged 18 at the time of the 1841 census. An Adam was found in the 1841 census age 15 (rounded down) at Finnylost, Strathdon Parish, male servant to a farmer. Advice is that it was possible for a minor to be a witness at a christening.
The other Alexander/Adam brothers were born to Alexander Hay and Mary Clarke. This Adam was born 16/9/1808 in Cluny. This Adam was found in the 1841 census at Kirktown, Culsamond Parish. He is listed as an ag. laborer –age 30 rounded down, ( the witness at the christening of Marjory was listed as a laborer) and was in the same house married to Margaret Hay. This Alexander died 13/11/1869 at Aberdeen, age 67. Therefore, not my Alexander who died about 1843.
Hoping that the reasoning is sound.
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Yes, I see that you have a lot more information than you originally stated, and the inclusion of Adam Hay as a witness does strengthen the case for Alexander being related to at least one Adam Hay.
You say that George was baptised by Bishop Skinner (See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Skinner_(bishop). This is quite significant, because it means that they must have been adherents of the Episcopal Church. The generally available baptism and marriage records are the registers of the Church of Scotland, the Roman Catholic Church and some of the minor, mainly presbyterian, churches. In theory the C of S was supposed to record all baptisms and marriages irrespective of which denomination the people belonged to, but this did not always happen.
So if I were you I would be trying to find out whether the relevant Episcopalian registers have survived and if so where they are. If they are available, they could possibly contain information about the marriage of Alexander Hay to Grace Farquhar, the baptisms of George, Jane and possibly intervening children, and the deaths of Grace Farquhar and Marjory jr.
I would start by contacting the Episcopal diocesan office of Aberdeen, the Aberdeen Archives and the Aberdeen University Archives.
You are right that adults' ages in the census were rounded down to the nearest 5 years. Unless there is an error in the FreeCEN transcription (Have you seen the original? What does it say?) which lists her age as 30, Marjory cannot be as young as 25. She has to be between 30 and 34 years old, in other words born between 8 June 1806 and 7 June 1811.
I would not place too much reliance on ages reported on death certificates - they can be out by several years. Children's ages, even in 1841, are more usually correct. Do not dismiss the possibility that Jane and Marjory Jr are two different children.
The wording of the baptism of Marjory is of exactly the form used when the recording of a baptism has been delayed, and the parents can remember when the child was born but not when he or she was actually baptised. I would read it as saying that Marjory was born on 5 October 1838.
Now for a bit of speculation. I note that according to the 1841 census (FreeCEN) Alexander was born in Aberdeenshire and Marjory was not.
Noting that the IGI lists four children of Adam Hay and Margaret Bruce
Adam Alexander, baptised 1838
James, born 1855
Joseph, born 1857
Margaret Andrew, born 1861
that the 1841 census (FreeCEN) lists
Adam, tailor, 25; Margaret, 25; William, 5; Adam, 2; and George, 1
that the 1851 census (FreeCEN) lists
Adam, tailor, 38, born Turriff; Margaret, 36, born Banff; George, 11; Alexander, 8; John, 6; Leslie, 4; Ann, 2; Burnet, 6 months
and that the 1861 census (FreeCEN) lists
Adam, 48, tailor, born Turriff; Margaret, 46, born Banff; John, 24; Leslie, 14; Ann, 11; Burnett, 9; Duncan, 7; James, 5; and Joseph, 3
I am wondering if this Adam and Margaret could be a brother of Alexander and/or sister of Marjory. If they were, and they were Episcopalian, it would acoount for all those children missing from the baptism records. At the very least, I would want to take a look at the birth certificate of James in 1855.
Obviously, if Adam was a tailor, he isn't the labourer who was a witness at whichever baptism. That could have been the child's grandfather.
I also see that Marjory is named as Marjory Hay, previously Ross, M S Bruce. Could Jane be a daughter of this previous marriage, adopted at such a young age by Alexander that she believed herself to be his biological daughter?
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Forfarian
Thanks for quick reply and advice. About to have dinner in Australia soon. Will chase up the advice next day or so.
Many thanks
Gary
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Forfarian
Sorry for delay in response.
I disregarded Adam Hay and Margaret Bruce, mainly because Adam is listed as a tailor in the 1841 census. The witness at 1838 baptism is listed as a laborer.
I did chase a relationship of Marjory and Margaret Bruce- from memory both their fathers had same first names but mothers had different maiden names.
Regarding Marjory/Jean/Jane. Have spent many hours research and came to conclusion they were the same person. The 1851 census has her age as 13. The below states born 1838 and aged 22.
Marriage Notes for JANE HAY and GEORGE KERR:
Old Machar/iJANE HAY, b. 1838; m. GEORGE KERR, 10 August 1860, Red Lion Inn, Spital, Aberdeen.
Marriage Notes for JANE HAY and GEORGE KERR:
Old Machar/1860/116 on 10th August, 1860 at Red Lion Inn, Spital, Old Aberdeen
George Kerr aged 31 years, Beach Battery, Links, Aberdeen sergeant royal artillery, bachelor, father John Kerr tailor master, deceased, mother Elizabeth Kerr, nee Stewart; married Jane Hay aged 22 years of Red Lion Inn Spital, Old Aberdeen, dress maker spinster; father Alexander Hay road contractor deceased; mother Marjory Ross, previously Hay, nee Bruce. married by Ch Skene, minister of John Knox Church, witnesses Alexr. McGregor, and James Bisset.
Regarding your last point about previous children.
The George in the 1841 census is from a previous marriage of Alexander. Alexander then married Marjory Bruce. He died about 1843 and Marjory re-married to a James Ross and had 3 more children.
Thanks