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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: Liz newns on Wednesday 17 May 17 16:40 BST (UK)
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Hi All,
Looking for Martha Newns,
George Newns, also goes by George Rogers Newns or George Rogers, her son.no father named.
George Born 1841/ 42 in Wrexham to a Martha Newns. Martha in Jan 1842 married Thomas Rogers, they had a son Samuel. Martha then disappears and Thomas marries Ellen.
Martha lists a Philip as her father, but I can't make link.
George lists his father as Richard on his marriage certificate.
I am thinking George was illegitimate maybe born in Wrexham workhouse, was Martha her official name,maybe not.
Anyone out there researching Newns or Rogers, from Wrexham and Shropshire areas
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When you say "no father named" I firstly assumed you must therefore have the birth cert. But if so, you would a) know if he was born in the workhouse or not, and b) know a date of birth rather than 1841/1842. So where are you referring to when you say "no father named"?
If Martha married in Jan 1842, then there wasn't a lot of 1842 before that for her to have had George in, so does that imply an 1841 birth? Have you found the birth reg? (now assuming you haven't got the cert)
it looks very much as if he was illegitimate, but used his step fathers surname sometimes for ease.
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It isn't clear from your post whether you have a birth certificate for George - you say on the one hand "no father named" - is this from a baptism or birth certificate? - and later on that "maybe" he was born in Wrexham workhouse and you don't appear to know the exact date.
I can't easily see a relevant birth registration, but if he was born in the workhouse you'd expect there to be one. If you have such a certificate, please can you tell us all the details on it?
Cross-posted with lizdb with many of the same thoughts :)
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Also - where are Thomas, MArtha and George in 1851? They are escaping me!
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Thomas RODGERS is with new wife Ellen in Lancashire by 1851 (plus children George 9 and Samuel 7): HO107/2195/478/12
I see that the second son Samuel was registered Samuel ROGERS, Sep qtr 1843 Ellesmere with mmn NEW (according to the GRO online register). Ellesmere is the correct district for his stated birthplace of Overton, Flintshire.
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The 1861 census shows the couple in Chester as Thomas B Rogers and Ellen D Rogers (again with George and Samuel). RG 9/2629/30/6.
Marriage therefore likely to be:
Dec qtr 1850, Wirral
Thomas Becket Rogers
Ellen David Thompson
with the same reference, folio 19 page 392.
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Death (possible)
Oct/Nov/Dec 1844
Wrexham
Ref 27 198
Martha Rogers age 40
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Just beat me lizdb ;D
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Couple of possibles;
Martha NEWNS Christened 16 Sept 1804, Bangor Is-coed, Flint, Wales.
Parents ROGER/ELIZABETH
Martha NEWNES Christened 15 April 1804, St Peters, Liverpool, Lancashire
Father JOHN Newnes
That is if she was unmarried when she had George.
GRO Index Birth Reg;
NEWINS, - (no christian name, no Mothers maiden name)
GRO Reference: 1841 S Quarter in WREXHAM Volume 27 Page 262
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GRO Index Birth Reg;
NEWINS, - (no christian name, no Mothers maiden name)
GRO Reference: 1841 S Quarter in WREXHAM Volume 27 Page 262
Looks promising - this one is indexed as Male NEWNES on FreeBMD.
Unfortunately (re looking for Martha) there seems to have been a problem with the Wrexham 1841 census - it was all lost, then the town returns were found and privately transcribed, but they don't seem to be available on the usual online sites. (One local history website tantalisingly suggests that the surname Newnes does feature in it!).
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Interesting that explains a lot :)
Off to bed!
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1841 Census Wrexham Town:
King Street: Anne 30 fem. servt. not born in County
Queen Street: Martha 20 fem. servt. not born in County
These are in separate households. Liz has already spotted Martha on another thread.
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1841 Census Wrexham Town:
King Street: Anne 30 fem. servt. not born in County
Queen Street: Martha 20 fem. servt. not born in County
These are in separate households. Liz has already spotted Martha on another thread.
Should have said - Newns.
http://www.clwydsurnames.org.uk/index.html
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Oh. Thanks Wilcoxon. Are we duplicating work done on another thread?
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No, it`s just that Liz picked up on this, her posts are on 14/15 at the end of the thread.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=510907.45
See « Reply #49 on: Tuesday 08 February 11 16:09 GMT (UK)
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Mar qtr 1842
North Wales BMD shows a Civil marriage.
ROGERS Thomas . Wrexham, Civil Marriage
NEWNS Martha
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Oooo, so helpful, thank you all.
No I don't have a birth certificate for George, but I have in his own writing aged 18 8/9/1859, which makes his d.o.b 1841,from a family bible, it's his mother that is the mystery. Your replies have given me some research to do.
In researching For Martha we have, " male born 9 Sept 1841 to Martha Newns.", but no father is named.
On George's marriage cert his father is named as Richard, cordwainer, but haven't been able to link any Richards.
Thank you all again xx
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1851 Windle St Helens .Lancashire
Thomas Rodgers 32 shoemaker b Wrexham
Ellen Rodgers 24 b Liverpool
George Rodgers 9 b Wrexham
Samuel Rodgers 7 b Overton
John Rodgers brother 45 shoemaker b Wrexham
Both Thomas and his brother John are shoemakers.
A cordwainer was also a shoemaker, as Thomas`s father was.
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Hi yes got details coming forward it's going back that's come to a halt, but didn't know cordwainer a shoemaker, it all fits with the history I have, just can't make links. I fact I have shoe forms left by family, which I found the other week x
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I would personally be getting that 1842 Marriage Cert.
Its the only way you are going to trace Marthas parentage.
As George was born 9 Sept 1841 and Martha/Thomas married a few months later you would think Thomas was his Father.
It is also not unusual for a illeg. Child to name a false Father on their M/C.
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Another thought, the marriage was a civil one, suggesting that it was non conformist.
Maybe one or both were "chapel" , if so finding baptisms etc could be difficult.
I see that Thomas marred Ellen at St Marys , Birkenhead.
Family search has his father as Samuel ?
Thomas Beckett Rogers
Event Date 02 Dec 1850 Event Place St Mary, Birkenhead,
Father's Name Samuel Rogers
Spouse's Name Ellen David Thompson
Spouse's Father's Name John Thompson
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Martha lists a Philip as her father, but I can't make link.
Is this from the 1842 marriage certificate?
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This may be worth checking .
Rogers Martha 1804 — 1844 Denbighshire Burials Brymbo, Denbighshire.
Ignore Brymbo, FindMyPast sometimes put that instead of Wrexham. It should be St Giles Church.
It may give some clues .
If Thomas was born c 1819, then he was quite a bit older than this Martha.
If not then perhaps the actual death certificate may shed some light.
Have you thought about looking at Samuel instead, get his birth certificate and see what`s on that. We know who his parents were, but why was he born in Overton.
Newns / Newnes is a name found often in that area of Flintshire . Perhaps Martha went home to give birth. There may be an address where she was and perhaps who registered the birth.
It`s worth a go.
Births Sep 1843 Ellesmere . Samuel Rogers.
Deaths Dec 1844 Wrexham . Martha Rogers aged 40 b c 1804
I wonder where the Beckett came from ?
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Older, I mean younger !
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I had some help from Names from Clwyd for Rogers.
1841 Census Wrexham Town
Mount Street. All in same household, no relationships given .
ROGERS
Samuel 72 Breeches maker Not born in County
Frances 65 Not born in County
John 35 Shoemaker Born in County
Thomas 23 -do- Born in County
WHOMSLEY Willm. 30 Whitesmith Born in County
There are some details that match. A Samuel in the marriage , and the ages of Thomas and his brother John who are both shoemakers.
Marriage 2 Dec 1850 St Mary, Birkenhead,
Thomas Beckett Rogers Father's Name Samuel Rogers
Ellen David Thompson Spouse's Father's Name John Thompson
1851 Windle St Helens .Lancashire
Thomas Rodgers 32 shoemaker b Wrexham
Ellen Rodgers 24 b Liverpool
George Rodgers 9 b Wrexham
Samuel Rodgers 7 b Overton
John Rodgers brother 45 shoemaker b Wrexham
There is tree on the User Submitted Genealogies on family search which seems to be this family, just click under Frances Hobson for the children and there is a Thomas and John of similar ages.
There is also a Beckett conection.
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/2:2:9MKQ-G8K
Queen Street . in household of Sophia JONES 35 Ind. Not born in County
NEWNES Martha 20 Female Servant Not born in County
King Street. in household of Sarah FOULKES 55 Ind. born in County
NEWNES Anne 30 Female Servant Not born in County
There are only these two with the surname NEWNES in Wrexham at this time.
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Hi thanks, these are definitely the people named in my family bible,