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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Lanarkshire => Topic started by: Hebe1 on Saturday 13 May 17 23:32 BST (UK)
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Hi,
Just discovered my Great Grandmother lived at Alice Lee Place, Glasgow Road, Wishaw in 1900. I cannot find any information about this place at all. Can anyone help please.
Many Thanks, Hebe
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Is she still there in the 1901 census?
It could be a row of dwellings or a back street which may be too insignificant to be named on any maps.
If she is at the same address in 1901 then we might be able to get some idea as to the location based on the neighbouring addresses.
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Ruskie,
Found Alice Lee Place (Cambusnethan, Wishaw) on VR's for 1895
Next VR is 1905 with only Alice Lee Cottage (Cambusnethan) i.e. can't help with whether it was still there in 1901.
Although, still on Glasgow Road.
Pity we didn't have a name.
Annie
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1895 has Alice Lee Cottage in Alice Lee Place, Glasgow Road, Cambusnethan.
Looks to be a very small area with a Shop, Bottling Store, a few houses & a cottage.
Not showing in 1885 if that helps?
Annie
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What are VRs Annie? :-\
Whatever they are I think it will help. ;) Can you narrow down a more exact location?
There's nothing marked on the couple of maps I looked at but if we can work out whereabouts on Glasgow Road it was, I can then look for some more detailed maps.
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Sorry Ruskie,
VR's (Valuation Rolls).
The only info. that I can help with there is the area Cambusnethan in Wishaw, Lanarkshire.
My ancestors were from that area.
Annie
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Valuation Rolls - of course. Thanks. :-[
When I enter Alice Lee into the address box on FindMyPast an option for Alice Lee Cottage appears. First on the list of results is a Chambers family living there but street name is given as Anderson Street, cambusnethan Parish. I'm not very good with using FindMyPast, can never seem to find what I want, and of course with transcriptions only for Scottish censuses it doesn't help.
I'm sure someone who knows their way around the site will have more luck.
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Hence the reason I call it 'BlindMyPast' ;D
Can never find what I'm looking for (takes too long to navigate) & when I do eventually find something the transcriptions are something else ::)
We can find out when Hebe1 returns.
Annie
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Ahhh,
I wonder if it was one of those streets which had a name change ???
Have you checked the address in 1891?
Annie
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Annie, through some sleuthing I found a family called MacFarlane who lived in Alice Lee Cottage in 1891. Daniel, wife Margaret, both aged 61 plus family. This is not the OP's family, but I just wanted to find someone/ anyone living at that address.
The transcription on Ancestry only gives the address as Glasgow Road, Wishaw. Trouble with the transcriptions is you can't move onto the neighbouring family to see their addresses, like you can when you view the images on English censuses, so impossible to narrow down a location on Glasgow Road (obviously a very long road with loads of households). ::)
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Ruskie,
The McFarlane's & others are there for the years I gave you on SP VR's.
I've been searching for the street name to no avail.
Trouble with SP is you can't search census' with addresses only the VR's ::)
Also, the transcriptions may not give the full address either (from experience) i.e. you only get part of it.
Annie
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It looks like we're back to square one. Maybe the next step is tofind very detailed map lf the area and just work our way along Glasgow Road, though it's still not certain it will be named.
Added: I checked a few maps on Old-Maps.co.uk - some nice detail but I can't see Alice Lee Cottage or Place inthe vicinity of Glasgow Road Wishaw ...
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I found the address on the Marriage certificate of Gt Grandmas and her second husband. It was 1912. They must have been living together as they both have the same address. She was Sarah Smith and married Walter Anderson. Thanks everyone for helping me.
Hebe
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Thanks Hebe.
Couples often give the same address on their marriage certificate, but it doesn't necessarily mean they are living together. I think it sometimes relates to Banns prior to their marriage only needing to be read in one parish if they give the one address, rather than Banns being read in both the bride and groom's parishes, therefore saving money. :)
Do you have both of these people in the 1911 census? I am asking because although people did move around more than we think, they just as often stayed in the same area, sometimes moving only a street or two away - so I am just hoping to find some clues really. :-\
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Wishaw and Cambusnethan role of honour for WW1, lists a few deaths of chaps with address Alice-Lea and Alice-Lea Place, Glasgow Road. Also, an old newspaper mentions a publican in the area, with Alice Lea address. And a 1924 newspaper has golfing news that mentions Alice Lea, Glasgow Road, Wishaw.
Annie, through some sleuthing I found a family called MacFarlane who lived in Alice Lee Cottage in 1891. Daniel, wife Margaret, both aged 61 plus family. This is not the OP's family, but I just wanted to find someone/ anyone living at that address.
1895 has Alice Lee Cottage in Alice Lee Place, Glasgow Road, Cambusnethan.
Looks to be a very small area with a Shop, Bottling Store, a few houses & a cottage.
Annie
1895 newspaper lists a 'bottler' business for sale by a retiring Daniel McFarlane, Alice Lea, Wishaw. I wonder if it was anywhere near the old Clydesdale distillery.
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1905 Valuation Roll
HAWKINS
ALICE
MRS
Tenant Occupier
ALICE LEE COTTAGE NO 194 GLASGOW ROAD
CAMBUSNETHAN
1905
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According to streetview this is 194
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/uv?hl=en&pb=!1s0x4888132f2e1e3ced:0x288faffa147e509d!2m19!2m2!1i80!2i80!3m1!2i20!16m13!1b1!2m2!1m1!1e1!2m2!1m1!1e3!2m2!1m1!1e5!2m2!1m1!1e4!3m1!7e115!4shttp://www.localdatasearch.com/wishaw/town_centre/household_stores/homestyle-12602221!5shomestyle+wishaw+-+Google+Search&imagekey=!1e1!2shttp://google.localdataimages.com/800_WM/2292/22925277.jpg&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjr4YPn_e7TAhXkCsAKHQPFDkYQoioIazAK
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Is that not 194 Main Street, Wishaw though? Would 194 Glasgow Road not be further out, nearer Aldi?
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You're right
194 would have been opposite McDonalds
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I haven't been able to find the correct Sarah Smith Smith on 1911 Scotland Census. And non at all on Ancestry. However, you have kindly found this address to be numbered as 194, Glasgow Road. My Father was born at 196, Glasgow Road. Sarah was his Grandother, could they have been living with her and Walter?
Hebe
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An old picture of Glasgow Road. Dont suppose its like that now. Hebe
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Great Grandma Sarah was nee Johnson, her dad James was a confectioner and Mother was Mary Thompson, dont know if that is any help is my progress. Thanks, Hebe
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1915 VRs have;
SWIFT EBENEZER
Proprietor Occupier
HOUSE ALICE LEA JERVISTON STREET
DALZIEL
Above looks to be a different Alice Lee/Lea ???
1920
ANDERSON ANDREW
Tenant Occupier
HOUSE ALICE LEA BOGSIDE VILLAGE OF OVERTOWN
OVERTOWN POLLING DISTRICT
CAMBUSNETHAN
ROBERTS ROBERT
Proprietor
HOUSE ALICE LEA BOGSIDE VILLAGE OF OVERTOWN
OVERTOWN POLLING DISTRICT
CAMBUSNETHAN
Annie
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That picture looks like the junction with Marshall Street
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1905 Valuation Roll
HAWKINS
ALICE
MRS
Tenant Occupier
ALICE LEE COTTAGE NO 194 GLASGOW ROAD
CAMBUSNETHAN
1905
But.....
There was more than one house & it didn't mention 'Cottage' only Alice Lee Place so not sure this is the correct no. '194' ???
Annie
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I haven't been able to find the correct Sarah Smith Smith on 1911 Scotland Census.
Could she have reverted to her maiden name?
Annie
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No, when Gt Grandad James Smith died she re married as Sarah Smith to Walter Anderson and that was the name on her death certificate. Where is the best place for me to find 1911 Scotland Census please. Hebe
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No, when Gt Grandad James Smith died she re married as Sarah Smith to Walter Anderson and that was the name on her death certificate. Where is the best place for me to find 1911 Scotland Census please. Hebe
Scotland's People www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk
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Where is the best place for me to find 1911 Scotland Census please.
The only place is the link from Forfarian.
Annie
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Thanks, Hebe
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In Scotland often widows reverted to their maiden names although I'm not saying Sarah did, it was just an idea/thought, not impossible.
Annie
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Its a good hint to remember in the future, thanks. Hebe
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Hebe,
If you need help with the index for 1911 to narrow your search just ask as it could save you some credits if you're unsure of where to look before you spend credits to view.
I have to go out for now but there are many experienced SP users such as Forfarian ;) who can help you.
Annie
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Great Grandma Sarah was nee Johnson, her dad James was a confectioner and Mother was Mary Thompson, dont know if that is any help is my progress. Thanks, Hebe
This map shows a "Confectionery Works" just north of the junction of Glasgow Road and Heathery Road:
https://www.old-maps.co.uk/#/Map/279500/655500/12/101098
(you need to scroll a bit to the left and zoom in to see it - it is just south of "Belhaven Works" which stands out quite well on the map) :)
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I'll put my penny'worth in, there has been a lot of posts on this subject in a very short space of time.
first of all, I have very seldom found that a widow here in the Wishaw area and in Lanarkshire in general, ever reverted to her maiden surname.
Also, if I were you Hebe, I would disregard all entries regarding Alice-Lea in Motherwell, Overtown or anyplace else other than Wishaw.
If I were you, I would stay focused on "Glasgow Road, Wishaw". forget Cambusnethan, that, in this case, is only the name of the civil parish, not the area of Wishaw that contains Glasgow Road.
I don't know where in Glasgow Road Alice-Lea Place was but I will tell you what I do know.
Someone in a post mentioned the Wishaw Roll of Honour (for WWI).
Almost the first entry is for -
ANDERSON WALTER (killed in action) 25 Glasgow Road Wishaw. Royal Scots reg; married.
next entry -
ANDERSON JAMES Alice-Lea, Glasgow Road Wishaw, H.L.I. reg; unmarried.
The only other mentions that I could find for Alice-Lea were three entries for the name Robertson, probably three brothers, George, John & Robert, Alice-Lea, Glasgow Road.
I couldn't find any other mention of Alice-Lea in the Roll of Honour but I'd be happy to know of any as it may lead us to marrying-up the names with those in the 1925 street directory.
If there were only 2 families mentioned this would lead me to believe that Alice-Lea Place was a small tenement building. Or, a cottage named Alice-Lea with a small tenement next to it (which would usually have been erected by the cottage owner) called Alice-Lea Place.
OK, now to the 1925 Wishaw street directory. I have an original and, as far as I know, the only copy in existence. It is constructed in 2 parts. It firsts lists all adults eligible to vote, alphabetically A - Z, with addresses. Secondly, it contains a list of streets with householders names and, when appropriate, occupations. The names are against the street numbers. So it's quite good for cross-referencing but the A - Z list seems to have been compiled about a year prior to the names in the street list, so it doesn't always work.
Anyway, in the second section, Glasgow Road is divided into various Buildings, Terraces, Places, Crescents and Lands, unfortunately - no Alice-Lea Place. But, it did exist.
One of the Robertsons mentioned in the Roll of Honour is listed in the 1925 Directory as "c/o Sloan, Alice-Lea, Glasgow Road.
The Directory lists the occupant (with a right to vote) of 25 Glasgow Road Wishaw as -
MRS WALTER ANDERSON.
If this is the same family as your Hebe, you should check the name James Anderson as mentioned at the beginning of this post, could he have been Walter's brother? If this all ties in, then your old photograph of Glasgow Road (Sancti was correct, the corner of Marshall Street) is probably where Alice-Lea Place was.
If number 25 was where the Anderson family lived, in the photograph (for those of us who know this building) Chapman the Butcher is at the other end of the building and is currently at No.35 Glasgow Road. In the 1925 Directory the butcher shop was number 39 Glasgow Road but, the premises' now are much larger, a double shop plus a bakers shop. The distillery Bond was at No.71 Glasgow Road.
As for the part about Hawkins, 194 Glasgow Road.
In the first section of the 1925 Directory, it lists R HAWKINS, 419 Glasgow Road.
In the second section (compiled at a later date) it lists ROBERT HAWKINS, ironworker at 419 Glasgow Road, which was part of Clyde Terrace. Not 194?
Confused? You are now!
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The confectionary works was Archibalds Battleaxe Toffee Factory.
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I'd like to go back to my theory about the names on the Roll of Honour.
It appears to be in some instances that when 2 or more people from one address are listed, then the address was sometimes shortened, almost a lazy way of doing it.
For example, two Ramage men are mentioned. The first is listed as living at Brownlee, 100 Belhaven Terrace.
The entry below just gives the address as 100 Belhaven Terrace.
Another example is two Riddell men, first entry is Auchendarroch, Belhaven Terrace, Wishaw.
Next entry is Auchendarroch, Wishaw.
I noticed several entries done this way. Could this be the same for the Anderson entries?
ANDERSON WALTER (killed in action) 25 Glasgow Road Wishaw. Royal Scots reg; married.
next entry -
ANDERSON JAMES Alice-Lea, Glasgow Road Wishaw, H.L.I. reg; unmarried.
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Lodger, Wow thanks for all that information. Ive discovered Walter had a son called james born 1887 so could it be him maybe. Ive joined Scottishpeople to will do some searching there.
Very interesting about the toffee factory.
Again, thanks everyone for your help. Hebe
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Lodger,
Obviously you have more knowledge of the area concerned & more in-depth info. but.....
I will insert my answers in blue :D
"first of all, I have very seldom found that a widow here in the Wishaw area and in Lanarkshire in general, ever reverted to her maiden surname.
Not found on census after being widowed. Some women did revert to their maiden name but I'm not an authority on who/where/when, it was a possibility to explore.
Also, if I were you Hebe, I would disregard all entries regarding Alice-Lea in Motherwell, Overtown or anyplace else other than Wishaw.
The above I posted was to show they were in fact different places.
If I were you, I would stay focused on "Glasgow Road, Wishaw". forget Cambusnethan, that, in this case, is only the name of the civil parish, not the area of Wishaw that contains Glasgow Road"
The VRs gave Alice Lee Place as Cambusnethan...Alice Lee Place being the address on marriage.
I can only go by what I find in genuine records while trying my best to help.
Annie
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The only other mentions that I could find for Alice-Lea were three entries for the name Robertson, probably three brothers, George, John & Robert, Alice-Lea, Glasgow Road.
Could this be them?
1905
ROBERTSON GEORGE
Tenant Occupier
HOUSE NO 194 GLASGOW ROAD
CAMBUSNETHAN
1905
VR010700226-
ROBERTSON ROBERT
Tenant Occupier
SHOP NO 525 GLASGOW ROAD SHIELDMUIR
CAMBUSNETHAN
1905
VR010700226-
ROBERTSON JOHN
Tenant Occupier
HOUSE NO 515 GLASGOW ROAD SHIELDMUIR
CAMBUSNETHAN
1905
VR010700226-
1915
ROBERTSON JOHN
Tenant Occupier
HOUSE 515 GLASGOW ROAD
CAMBUSNETHAN
1915
VR010700307-
The following 3 are the same George...
ROBERTSON GEORGE
Proprietor
ALICELEA COTTAGE 194 1/2 GLASGOW ROAD
CAMBUSNETHAN
1915
VR010700307-
ROBERTSON GEORGE
Proprietor Occupier
HOUSE 194 1/2 GLASGOW ROAD
CAMBUSNETHAN
1915
VR010700307-
ROBERTSON GEORGE
Proprietor Occupier
STABLE AND SHED 194 1/2 GLASGOW ROAD
CAMBUSNETHAN
1915
VR010700307-
1920
ROBERTSON JOHN
Tenant Occupier
STABLES AND SHED 194 1/2 GLASGOW ROAD
CAMBUSNETHAN
1920
VR010700344-
No sign of George or Robert in 1920 (in that area)
Annie