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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: Robair on Saturday 29 April 17 16:33 BST (UK)
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I am trying to find thee birth record of one of my extended family, Grace Philip. Her father was David Philip (Scottish), one of my great-uncles and her mother was Alice Philip (English). I would also like to know Alice's maiden name.
Grace said she was born in Portsmouth, Hampshire, England on 24 May 1907 but neither Portsmouth CC nor Hampshire CC have any record of her - nor has any ancestry site I have tried. I do have record of her emigrating with her parents to the USA (Scammon, Kansas) from Dundee, Scotland, via Glasgow and NY in 1912 and record of their arrival in Ellis Island. They did reach Scammon but the parents died in the 1917 'flu epidemic, leaving Grace a 10 year old orphan in a strange country - and apparently without documents. I would like to find the record of her birth (possibly in London) in 1907 and to know her mother's maiden name which would lead to finding more information. Can anyone help? Rob
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If your David is David Thomson Philip b abt 1864 in Logie Buchan Aberdeenshire he married Alice MONKTON 3rd qtr 1898 in Islington 1B 597 which is where Alice was born abt 1864.
They appear to have at least three children by 1911 George W, David C and Alice J b abt 1905.
They can be found on 1911 census but we can't give details here.
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Only 3 names on the 1912 passenger list
David aged 40, Alice 39 and Grace 4
Uncle James Craidan of 68 Hill Street Dundee is named as the nearest relative.
Having an only child aged 4 when the mother is 39 seems a bit odd to me for that day and age.
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Thank you very much for your reply. Regrettably this is not them. My great-uncle David (no middle name) was born in Forfar in 1869 but then "disappears" from the Scottish records some time around 1890 then reappears in Dundee in the 1911 census on his way to the US with Alice and Grace. Many thanks for your help, though. Rob
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Yes, thank you. That is them. I have that record from Scotland's People census (am I allowed to say that?) as well as their arrival in Ellis Island NY in 1912. David and Alice were apparently married in 1906 somewhere in England and had a child before Grace but who didn't survive. I have not yet found the record of the marriage nor of the first child. They apparently had a third child - born in the USA around 1914/5 but he (Roy?) died with his parents inn the great 'flu epidemic. Grace went on to marry and had three sons. I am in touch with the surviving family. Many thanks for your help though
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as the person who started the topic, you can post any vital information.
I can only see the 1911 Scotland free index, where is "Gracie" said to have been born?
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Hi and thank you. Grace (this 1911 census is the only instance of her ever being called "Gracie) always said she was born in Portsmouth, Hampshire, but I can (so far) find no documentary corroboration of that. Thanks for trying to help. Rob
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Strangely the passenger list transcription on Ancestry gives her place of birth as Portsmouth, but I can't see how they got this as it isn't on the image, that just says England and gives her age as 4, which would be a birth about 1908.
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on the 1911 census, what is her place of birth?
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Hi Rob
Just noticed these are your first posts, welcome to Rootschat ;D
Did Grace return to the UK?
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Yes, thanks for your help. That's her. I have a transcription of the passenger list of SS California on which they travelled rom Glasgow to NY in 1912. The James Crichton (sometimes Crighton and occasionally Creighton) mentioned earlier is Grace's father David's uncle by marriage who has an often curious relationship with the Philip family (my family). He was married to David's aunt, Helen Philip. David and family are said in that record to have been living with James - but he (David) is in the census as living with his family - virtually next door to his brothers and sisters and their families. One of his sisters was my grandmother, Maggie Philip.
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Hi Dawn (is that right?). Yes, I have just joined Rootschat and it's proving very good. Thank your all for your help.
No, Grace never returned to the UK. My grandmother, Grace's aunt, eventually found Grace via the aunt - apparently a relative of Grace's mother, Alice, in Scammon and corresponded with Grace and then so did my mother, her cousin - and I did too - with her youngest son, when I was 11. Unfortunately all but a couple of scraps of that correspondence have been lost - but I have photos. I also found her sons again about six months ago and they gave me more information about her life in the US. When she was orphaned she was taken around the Midwest on a train with thousands of other orphans and adopted my a family of German immigrants. She moved to Nevada and died there some years ago. Rob
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so, can you post full details from the 1911 Scotland census?
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Hi
Welcome to rootschat
There is a 20 year old David Philip bn Scotland at No Mans Land Fort, Portsmouth in 1891 - a Gunner in the Royal Artillery RG12/864 f26 p45 - Could this be your David :-\
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Attestation records 8th Sept 1890 for David Philip age 20 who joined Royal Artillery at Leith Fort - place of birth Forfar -father David
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i've just had a look and it just gives "England" for Grace and Alice. It also says that David and Alice have been married 5 years and have had 2 children, but only one living.
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Attestation records 8th Sept 1890 for David Philip age 20 who joined Royal Artillery at Leith Fort - place of birth Forfar -father David
His age on the 1911 census is 41 so it does fit.
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He's a general labourer in a jute factory in 1911.
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Hi Rosie, Thanks for your help. I have that record too. It could be him although he would have been 22 in 1891 - and there's no record of him ever having been in the Army. You never know though.
Dawn - the 1911 Scottish census record shows David Philip 41 b Scotland, Alice Philip 40 b England and Grace Philip 4 b England living at an address in Dundee next door to David's brothers and sisters an their families. James Crichton is not at that address but is listed elsewhere. They are listed as having been married for five years and have had two children but only one - Grace- surviving.
Rob
Thanks for later posts. It might be that David did join the army. His father's name IS David
Thank you all for your help. Still trying to find David's marriage cert and Grace's birth. Portsmouth CC and Hants CC (which covers the area surrounding Portsmouth) say they have no record
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Strangely the passenger list transcription on Ancestry gives her place of birth as Portsmouth, but I can't see how they got this as it isn't on the image, that just says England and gives her age as 4, which would be a birth about 1908.
Hi Groom, I scratched my head over that for a moment too - but if you click the arrow on the right of the screen image it takes you to the next page with more details. Follow Grace's line 18 to the last column ;) ;D
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If that is the right David, it would fit with Grace being born in Portsmouth. As it says she was born there on the passenger list, her parents must have given that information, so it is looking as if it could be correct.
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Did you ask Portsmouth CC and Hampshire to check under Philip, Phillip, Philips and Phillips? Having said that I can't find a birth on Freebmd either.
I wonder if she was born before the marriage (if there was one) and registered under her mother's name? There are quite a few Graces born Portsmouth the right quarter if her DOB is correct. It would mean checking which were illegitimate and then seeing if the 1901 had an Alice of the right age with that name.
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Yes, tried all that.
Can someone tell me what it says on the extended passenger list on Ancestry please? I don't have that. But it's looking lime Rosie is right and David joined the Royal Artillery.
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Page 2 of the passenger list states that they were going to join Alice's brother - Geo. Hoghson in Scammon.
Added - Alice's brother also paid for their passage.
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I can't solve the mystery just yet but her date of birth, 24 May 1907, is possibly wrong :-\
If she was 4 on the 1 June 1912 when they sailed, her birthday is somewhere between 2nd June 1907 and 1 June 1908.
On 1st June 1912 she would already be 5 years old if her bday was 24 May 1907.
Also looking at the passenger list, they are going to live with Alice's relative, her brother George, David's brother-in-law but I can't work out his surname.
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Hi Dawn, Alice's brother's surname looks like Hoghson - most likely a spelling mistake for Hodgson.
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There's a George Hodgson born England 1860 in Scammon, Cherokee County, Kansas in the 1910 census.
George is with 2nd wife Hetty as she has bought her Devlin children as step children to the marriage and census,
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Thank you all for your help. Excellent The man's name is George Hodgson - and now I know that he was Alice's brother. His wife, Hetty, corresponded with my grandmother and through her, my gran found Grace. Hetty was indeed George's second wife - and he was her second husband.
It may be that Grace was remembering her birthday and place of birth correctly in that their passage may well have been arranged before her birthday in 1912.
I can now find more on Alice Hodgson. Thanks again. Grace's sons will be pleased too.
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It may be that Grace was remembering her birthday and place of birth correctly in that their passage may well have been arranged before her birthday in 1912.
Just a thought re her age. Could it be that children under a certain age travelled free, so if they had said she was 5 they would have had to pay for her?
Doesn't explain why we can't find her birth though, unless as I suggested earlier she was registered under her mother's name.
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Thanks - but I think it more likely that since her uncle arranged and paid for their passage to the US, it was done when Grace was still only 4. It would be useful if I could find where George and Alice Hodgson lived when they were young. The surname seems to be most common around the Yorkshire to Northumberland areas
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Thanks - but I think it more likely that since her uncle arranged and paid for their passage to the US, it was done when Grace was still only 4.
Possibly, but wouldn't they have wanted the age of the child when the voyage took place? Are the parents' ages out by a year also, they would be if the trip had been arranged a year earlier.
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Deleted
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Attestation records 8th Sept 1890 for David Philip age 20 who joined Royal Artillery at Leith Fort - place of birth Forfar -father David
1st April 1902 attested to No 16 Company RGA
Fathers address 100 Caldrum Street, Dundee
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If David was in the Royal Artillery could he and Alice have married overseas and Grace also born overseas?
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My gut instinct has this scenario, especially because of the ages of her parents in 1912.
Around 1906 David is serving in Portsmouth and meets Alice who is already married. She becomes pregnant and Grace is born and registered under her mother's name. Alice takes David's name but they are unable to marry. Grace also takes her father's name. This would explain why we can't find a marriage or birth registration. I do think Grace was born in Portsmouth as it is very definite on the passenger list. I wouldn't believe everything they put on the 1911, we all know how often a marriage is invented or dates moved to fit the age of a child.
The only way I can see to prove or disprove this idea would be to work through all the babies called Grace registered Portsmouth second and perhaps third quarter 1907 and eliminate them.
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I wonder if it would be worth getting Alice's brother's George death certificate as it might show where he was born and his parents' names.
From freebmd I have taken all the Grace girls registered in 1907 and 8 in Portsmouth and put their surnames into the GRO index to see if any have the mother's maiden name as Hodgson. They didn't, I only did the Grace girls with no second name.
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Hi Gibel, I have done the same - including those with second names - no mother as Hodgson or similar :-\
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But if Alice's brother was George Hodgson and she was married, her surname wouldn't be Hodgson, would it?
Bev
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But if Alice's brother was George Hodgson and she was married, her surname wouldn't be Hodgson, would it?
Bev
Her maiden name would be though, and that is what should be on her daughter's birth certificate.
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But if Alice's brother was George Hodgson and she was married, her surname wouldn't be Hodgson, would it?
Bev
Her maiden name would be though, and that is what should be on her daughter's birth certificate.
Of course ::)
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I found George Hodgson gravestone on Find a grave site ( linked from Ancestry) That led me to his wife name given on the site not gravestone which suggests she was Annie Thompson before marriage. I wonder when and where the couple married?
Just realised this can't be the correct George as the wife Annie dies in 1927!
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One to consider :-\ Now eliminated
George Hodgson Age 22
Annie Thompson Age 18
Marriage 18 Oct 1884
West Rainton, Durham
Georges father William Hodgson
Annie's father Luke Thompson
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1900 census Kansas for Luke Thompson, wife Mary and family
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MMTW-NYC
1881 they are in Cornforth, Durham
RG11/4902 f39 p5
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q27B-YRZM
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1910 Kansas with Annies brothers William & John
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M2HT-3C4
1920 Kansas with Annies brothers Thomas, James & William
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MF63-4G9
Do you think they are the right family :-\
See next post
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I found George Hodgson in Scammon on the 1910 census, which puts his birth around 1860.
If Alice's age is right on the 1911 Scotland census and the travel documents, her birth is around 1872.
Thinking outside the box, Alice and George may not be together as siblings on the 1881 census due to the 12 year age difference.
By 1881 he might have left home already.
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I found George Hodgson in Scammon on the 1910 census, which puts his birth around 1860.
I can't have the right one then as he was married to Hetty then. Thanks Dawn ;D
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I found George Hodgson in Scammon on the 1910 census, which puts his birth around 1860.
A shame that there's no immigration date given for George on the 1910 census https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M2HR-DNC
If Alice's age is right on the 1911 Scotland census and the travel documents, her birth is around 1872.
There's this brother and sister named George & Alice Hodgson together on 1871c but their year of birth does not match from the census records already mentioned ie c1860 / c1872 :-\
George born c1864 England with his sister Alice Hodgson born c1868 on 1871 both born Goulceby, Lincolnshire, parents are George & Mary
1871 https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:VB86-6CV
George is not with Alice and family on 1881 census
1881 https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q27V-TGNC
Have not yet found them on the 1891/1901 census to rule them out
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I don't have an Ancestry description but there was a Kansas state census in 1915.
Looking at the 1920 census Grace may have been adopted by William and Eva Imhof(f) who also have an adopted son Roy Sturn.
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I don't have an Ancestry description but there was a Kansas state census in 1915.
Looking at the 1920 census Grace may have been adopted by William and Eva Imhof(f) who also have an adopted son Roy Sturn.
Here's the family on 1920/1930 census Kansas
1920 https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:33S7-9RXS-Z4Y?cc=1488411
1930 https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:33S7-9R41-3TM?cc=1810731