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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: Tassel on Friday 28 April 17 10:07 BST (UK)
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Hi. Any information concerning death dates or marriages about the following would be appreciated.
All born in Campbell's Creek or Castlemaine.
Margaret Fraser b. 1866
James Fraser b. 1855
Elizabeth Johanna (Fraser) Hansen. b. 1870. Elizabeth married Knud Erasmus Hansen.
Their parents: Thomas Fraser and Catherine (Campbell) Fraser.
Thankyou. Tassel.
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Is this your Margaret?
Death: 1939 #8880 Margt MERCER
Father's name: Thomas FRASER
Mother's name: Catherine (Campbell)
Place of birth
Place of death: Prahran
Age: 78
The Age 11 Sep 1939 http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/206340015
MERCER.— On September 9, at the Alfred Hospital, Margaret, widow, of James, and loved mother of Alexander, William, George, Ernest (deceased), Ida, Ethel and Rene (deceased) of No. 30 Buckly-street, Carnegie, aged 78 years.
Funeral notice (same page)
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Cupoflife.
Yes you are quite correct and I thank you very much for it. There were 12 children and I now nearly have them all down. She would be my great grandmother's sister. She was born in 1866 B/C Reg #7084 which makes her 73. Strangely on her mother's Death Certificate it lists both the Margarets as deceased by 1906.
My first night on Rootschat and i feel very much like a rookie. Other members like you seem to get answers in minutes whereas I have spent hours scouring VicBdm lists. I did not even see MERCER listed in the marriages. If there is a simple method please let me know.
regards Tassel.
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Elizabeth Johanna (Fraser) Hansen. b. 1870. Elizabeth married Knud Erasmus Hansen.
Their parents: Thomas Fraser and Catherine (Campbell) Fraser.
In 1892 They were in Broken Hill.
Barrier Miner (Broken Hill, NSW : 1888 - 1954), Thursday 28 January 1892, page 3
An Exacting Husband.
KNUD ERASMUS HANSEN, pleaded not guilty this morning to a charge of having assaulted his better half, Elizabeth Joanna. According to the evidence of the wife, Knud Erasmus came home on Sunday, and, after having his dinner served up to him, insisted on her standing behind his chair and keeping the flies off the food. This she refused to do, and Erasmus proceeded to chastise her for this disobedience by seizing her by the throat and throwing her on the floor. She then went to the house of defendant's mother and remained there during the night. The defendant denied having treated his wife roughly, and stated that she had scores of times refused to keep the flies from his food while he was eating. The bench found accused guilty and decided to issue an order prohibiting all publicans from supplying defendant with liquor. For the assault a sentence of seven days imprisonment was inflicted.
Not seeing a death for her at the moment.
Raylen
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Still in Broken Hill 1894
Barrier Miner (Broken Hill, NSW : 1888 - 1954), Monday 29 January 1894, page 3
Knud Hansen was called on to show cause why he should not be sent to gaol for neglecting to pay a fine of £5 imposed on him on December 14 for having failed to comply with an order of the court for the payment of 17s. 6d per week towards the maintenance of his wife. The P. M. said Hansen had acted very badly right through the case. He had no alternative but to send the accused to gaol for three months, at the expiration of which period he would still be liable for the payment of the unpaid balance under the order.
Raylen
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NSW birth:
8085/1891 Alexander R. HANSEN; Father-Knud; Mother-Lizzie; Broken Hill
8938/1892 Leslie R. HANSEN; Father-Knud; Mother-Elizabeth; Broken Hill
NSW death: 3263/1892 Alexander R. HANSEN; Father-Knud R. ; Mother-Elizabeth J; Broken Hill
Not sure? NSW marriage: 17771/1926 Leslie R. HANSON and Malvena R. ALTHORP; Broken Hill
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Cupoflife and Raylen.
I suppose Forum etiquette stops me from saying too much about the way Knud Hansen treated my great aunt Elizabeth. He possibly was reacting to the death of baby Alexander in Jan 1892 in some way but it is still so wrong.
Vicbdm Myrtle Ada Fraser Reg #17084 in 1899// d.Myrtle Fraser Reg#2710 in 1900 but also Myrtle
Hansen d. Reg#2710.
James Fraser b. Reg#25798 in 1910 and as James Hansen Reg# 25798 in 1910. Died James Hansen d. Reg #24145 in 1977
I think Elizabeth returned to Melbourne and had the above 2 children. Father listed as Unknown on all entries. Do you think it possible she was abandoned or chose to leave and so assumed her Maiden name on return to Melbourne? Still can't see her death but she might have died under Elizabeth Fraser Unknown/Unknown.
Cupoflife. Baby Leslie Hansen died in Campbell's Creek 1894.
Knud Erasmus Hansen died in Adelaide in 1946.
Tassel.
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Hi
Margaret (nee FRASER's) correct married name was MESSER.
She was married
FRASER Margaret (born CMAINE)
CHRISTIE William McNeven
Year: 1888
Reg 7934
Second marriage
MESSER Percy Jas ( Born PRN)
CHRISTIE Margt
Year 1896
Reg. 3698
There were children to the couple.
Sue
ADDING. This may be a first marriage for Margaret's second husband.
MESSER Percy (born SOUTH YARRA)
JONES Eliza Ann
Year 1874
Reg 4582
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Here also is the death of James Percy MESSER
MESSER Jas Percy
Father MESSER Jas
Mother Charl TWINEY
Age 60
Death Place Hberg
Year 1913
Reg. 9727
Death notice James Percy MESSER
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/7265093
Sue
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Hi Sparrett. This Forum just keeps on giving. You are right of course. The spelling is Messer not Mercer. Only this morning Raylen or Essie showed me the easier way to use Vicbdm data base. I had been going through manually for each listing. I think there are plenty of times when you still have to plough through each listing because of misspelt names but I was doing it hard. And now you pop up with a divorce and second marriage. This explains why i could not remember seeing a Mercer. Obviously when I got round to checking James Mercer details there would have been nothing. I have to keep remembering to sound Surnames differently when I have drawn a blank.
Bottom line is.. Thanks Sparrett.
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Sparrett. I have to check Percy James Messers birth and death dates you have given me. Doesn't tally to me.
Tassel.
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Hi
I am pleased to help further if needed.
What is not tallying for you?
I did not give you Percy James' birthdate
I can check again ;D
I have resources other than those online which sometimes give a little more detail than online ones and are easier to search with.
Sue
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Sparrett. What was the following ( I haven't worked out cut and paste yet)--
Messer Percy
Jones Eliza Ann
Year 1874
Reg# 4582. b. Sth Yarra. because that looks like his birthdate and if he died in 1913, aged 60? Tassel
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I see the confusion ;D
What I said was
This may be a first marriage for Margaret's second husband.
MESSER Percy (born SOUTH YARRA)
JONES Eliza Ann
Year 1874
Reg 4582
This means
Percy MESSER (who was born in South Yarra) married to Eliza Ann JONES in 1874. Reg 4582.
Here is his parents' marriage in England.
Marriages Mar quarter 1851
MESSER James
TWINNING Charlotte
St Giles
1/69
I do not see Percy's birth.
Civil registration began in Victoria in 1853.
This is about the time of his birth according to the death details.
Perhaps it is not on the indexes for that reason.
Sue
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PROV has a will for a Margaret MESSER, d 9 September, 1939, widow, residence: Carnegie. This will is not yet digitised.
https://www.prov.vic.gov.au/explore-collection/explore-topic/wills-and-probates
I can't see a death notice for her.
The index entry that Sue gave you is a marriage in 1874 between a Percy MESSER and Eliza Ann JONES. This Percy was born in South Yarra - but not in 1874 - that's the marriage date.
Sue wondered if he had been married prior to his marriage to Margaret.
Edit to add - sorry Sue, I didn't see you were on line 8)
Judith
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Sparrett. Yes now it all makes sense to me. Obviously you understood it. Best take nothing for granted with we novices. Why do I feel like i am having an out of body experience with all you veteran members. Did you have a chance to read my thinking on Elizabeth Johanna (Fraser) Hansen. After their second baby died in Campbells Creek (Leslie Hansen 1892-1894) I am assuming Knud Hansen (father) departed and Elizabeth was in Carlton and died as Elizabeth Fraser and not Elizabeth Hansen with Unknown parents. Knud went to S.A. Tassel.
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Hi
I feel you are on the right track with this line of thought.
James' birth was registered under both her married and her maiden names. It seems a very likely correct assumption the mother is your woman.
HANSEN Jas
Father Unknown
Mother Elizth FRASER
Birth Place CARLTON
Year 1910
Reg. 25798 R
FRASER Jas
Father Unknown
Mother Elizth FRASER
Birth Place CARLTON
Year 1910
Reg. 25798 R
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Sparrett.
Thanks for all the details. I have a question on protocol. If you went through all of a given name on a data base eg. Vicbdm, and all individuals had parents but one didn't, can you assume it might be your person or do you leave well alone. Do you see where i am coming from?
regards Tassel.
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PROV has a will for a Margaret MESSER, d 9 September, 1939, widow, residence: Carnegie. This will is not yet digitised.
https://www.prov.vic.gov.au/explore-collection/explore-topic/wills-and-probates
I can't see a death notice for her.
Judith
Death: 1939 #8880 Margt MERCER
Father's name: Thomas FRASER
Mother's name: Catherine (Campbell)
Place of birth
Place of death: Prahran
Age: 78
The Age 11 Sep 1939 http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/206340015
MERCER.— On September 9, at the Alfred Hospital, Margaret, widow, of James, and loved mother of Alexander, William, George, Ernest (deceased), Ida, Ethel and Rene (deceased) of No. 30 Buckly-street, Carnegie, aged 78 years.
Funeral notice (same page)
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Sparrett.
Thanks for all the details. I have a question on protocol. If you went through all of a given name on a data base eg. Vicbdm, and all individuals had parents but one didn't, can you assume it might be your person or do you leave well alone. Do you see where i am coming from?
regards Tassel.
Hi
No, that kind of elimination process would not be enough to confirm an identity as the one you were particularly seeking.
To do this you would need to purchase the certificate. An uncertified image can be downloaded to your computer immediately upon payment of about Aus. $24.00. You will need the registration number found through the original search.
http://www.bdm.vic.gov.au/home/family+history/help+guide/
This link shows what you may see on all Victorian certificates. How complete and accurate the information is, depends on the knowledge (and perhaps, honesty ) of the informant.
http://www.jaunay.com/bdm.html
A usual process might be to get as much information as possible through readily available sources, such as those online or through Rootschat assistance, and then, if a very likely candidate for your person of interest emerges take the step to a purchase of the certificate image.
Elizabeth FRASER/HANSEN, parents UK, would possibly apply to many death index entries
Sue
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Judith, Thanks for the references. Went into Trove and added the correct Tag for Margaret Messer. I am pretty zealous about putting correct tags in Trove. Can never be a bad thing. I now will have to go through and see if there are any of her children on it. All seven of them.
Sue, I have purchased a number of Certificates from VicBDM and they have been invaluable, though in the case of Margaret Fraser, her mother's certificate said Margaret was deceased as at 1906. This did not help me get anywhere. But I did purchase two certificates with parents Unknown and the certificates were virtually useless. Cause of Death and Burial details with nothing to give a hint. So I will have to suck it up and accept that maybe there will be people that just can't be pinpointed to Birth or death date, not even a year. Tassel