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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => London and Middlesex => England => London & Middlesex Lookup Requests => Topic started by: 4licks on Wednesday 26 April 17 11:22 BST (UK)
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I am looking for my great grandmother, Edith Brown(nee Soffe). She appears with great grandfather Herbert Louis Brown in 1901 england census & grandfather Herbert Reginald Brown at 5 Shrubland Rd Walthamstowe. By 1911 census, Herbert Louis Brown was at 365 Victoria Park Rd, St John-at-Hackney with a housekeeper. It showed him as married not widower.
It is possible that 1911 census for London County Lunatic Asylum, Hanwell that shows: E Brown, married, aged 39 is in fact Edith Brown, my great grandmother.
Like previous forum contributors, I am seeking information about this E Brown, based on a possible admission after 1911. I can find no record of Edith Brown's death. Herbert Louis Brown and his housekeeper, Sarah Ann Fleming lived together until they both died in Rugeley, Staffs in 1927/1930
Thank you, Keith Day
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Hi Keith
I've created a new topic for you as the one you posted on has been dormant for many years and was on the Completed Board
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=365333.0
Dawn
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Just for information 1901 census gives Edith Brown as age 24 bn Old Ford (Husband Herbert was bn Bermondsey) - Birth approx 1876
Have you considered this Fulham death :-\
Edith Brown
Mar qtr 1912
Age 36
Reg district Fulham
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The Lunacy Admission registers for 1846-1912 are available to search and view on Ancestry.
Thre's no record for Edith Brown.
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Thank you Rose and Dawn. I have added an Edith Brown, d1912 Fulham without knowing any more details. That still doesn't resolve where she was on 1911 census of Herbert Louis Brown. Is it possible to find out admission date for the "E. Brown" listed in 1911 Asylum census mentioned before. Thanks.
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I think that you can probably ignore the 1912 death - probate calendar says she was a spinster
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Can anyone please tell me where "Old Ford" is?
I found the son Herbert Reginald Brown as a boarder with the Wilkinson family in Homerton. He has the same occupation as his father (Porter in Auction Rooms). The father Herbert Louis says he (and presumably Sarah Ann Flemming) had been married for 10 years. :-\They have a 9 year old son with the surname Flemming. (Herbert and Edith married in 1894.)
There are a few Edith Browns around in the 1911 census so I'm not sure that that someone in Hanwell Asylum called "E Brown", should be considered until all the other Ediths on the 1911 census have been dismissed. I would have thought that an East London Asylum would have been more convenient for Edith anyway. :)
Added: this E Brown is currently aged 39 years and was said to have been a Lunatic at 32 years. Isn't that too old to be your Edith? Birth place is Bermondsey though, which fits if that is where Old Ford is.
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Probably a coincidence?
Marriage
Dec 1/4 1918
Aberwystwyth :-\
Herbert L Brown and Sarah Ann Fleming ....
In the 1901 census Herbert and Edith have a couple of Welsh bank clerks boarding with them. :-\
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Ford
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Ruskie :)
Sarah Ann Brooke married Robert Hope Fleming sep qtr 1900 (Hackney RD) son with mmn Brooke born Sept qtr 1901
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I wonder if Sarah A was initially a 'housekeeper' her husband was in the army at this time. ::) The years married for them both (Herbert & Sarah) showed they were not 'together'
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Thank you all for your contributions. My Ancestry.co.uk site has a number of answers to your combined responses. Old Ford is in/near Tower Hamlets in London East End. Correct, Probate shows Edith Brown as a spinster in 1912. Correct, Herbert Reginald in 1911 was a boarder and an Auctioneers assistant. He later became a police man, confirmed with probate of Herbert Louis Brown in 1930. 1911 Census shows both Herbert Louis Brown & Sarah Ann Fleming as married with different terms of marriage. Correct, her maiden name was Brooke and her father was also a resident at 365 Victoria Park Rd in 1911 census. An electoral roll shows Herbert Louis Brown as landlord. Probate 1927 for Sarah Ann Brown/Fleming goes to her son Alfred recorded on 1911 Census whilst probate for Herbert Louis Brown goes to Herbert Reginald Brown in 1930. Interestingly they both died at Sation Hotel, Rugeley in Staffordshire.
That still leaves me with ..Where was Edith Brown in 1911 and when did she die?
I look forward to any further assistance with thanks
Keith Day
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Thanks for info on Old Ford. I've not heard of that before. :)
(a google search showed me a lot of rather nice motor cars)
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Who was Edith Soffe?
On the 1894 St Mark Victoria Park marriage to Herbert Brown she is given as 20 years of age, residence 16 Wansbeck Road, father William Henry Soffe, Life-guard man.
Possibly William Henry Soffe who married Jane Thropp, 1868, St George Bloomsbury. Although he was a Barman at the time.
Is there a birth registration for Edith? Have you found her in 1881, 1891, can we be sure she was born in Old Ford?
John
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Is this another marriage for William? If so, what happened with the first one?
28 March 1870, St Giles Camberwell
William Henry Soffe, full age, Bachelor, Waiter, father William Charles Soffe, Coach builder
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Eugenia Whitehorn, minor, Spinster, father Joseph Whitehorn, Painter
residence for both Dulwich
On the Bloomsbury marriage William Soffe's father was Charles Thomas Soffe, Coach builder
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Newington Workhouse, Westmoreland Road A+D, 1880
Admitted 28 Feb 1880
Eugenia Soffe, calling Servant, religion R. C., born 1853, Sick, married
Edith Johnson (with Soffe written above), R. C., born 1877
Albert Johnson (with Soffe written above), R. C., born 1878
admitted from St Georges
Edith Soffe was discharged 9 April 1880 (not sure where to, some kind of childrens establishment?)
Eugenia and Albert Soffe discharged 14 May 1880
Is this likely to be the right Edith?
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Nice one jonw :)
JOHNSON, EDITH mmn WHITEHORN
1877 Sept Quarter in POPLAR Volume 01C Page 591
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JOHNSON, ALBERT EDWARD mmn WHITEHORN
1878 Dec Quarter
WANDSWORTH Volume 01D Page 606
also in case it is relevant
JOHNSON, WALTER JAMES mmn WHITEHORN
1879 Dec Quarter
FULHAM Volume 01A Page 277
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Well, I couldn't find that birth, Rosie!
Eugenia remarried -
22 October 1882, at St James the Great, Bethnal Green
William Edward Shelton, full, Widower, Labourer
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Eugenia Soffe, full, Widow, father Joseph Whitehorn, Painter
residence for both Bethnal Green
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Thank you again "Team".For those of you with Ancestry.co.uk membership, look for public site keithday185. I live in Australia and will look at all your suggestions tonight AUS time which is 9 hours ahead of GBT. I have a second person on my wife's side that I am looking for but lets resolve this first.
With the Soffe's I have used the parental names on marriage banns to drill back. What has caused this enquiry in the first place was Kenneth Reginald Brown, my mother's brother born 1931. There is no death certificate for him but there is one for Reginald Browne Feb 2015 and an unclaimed deceased estate. Rather than go into detail here, Ealing Council, Ealing Hospital and Govt Legal Dept are all being investigated for not contacting known next of kin, including my mother's other sister's son, also Keith, who has lived in Fulham all his life. Our issue is not the small estate, The cemetery where H.R. & E.S.T. Brown are buried will not allow Keith & I to erect a headstone until we can prove that we are next of kin for a deceased Kenneth Reginald Brown, the owner of the burial site. Or gain his approval!?!?!?!?! The Cemetery also is in Ealing Council so I will let you draw your own conclusions.
Though our combined investigations, all 3 entities have now acknowledged we are correct and being investigated from above. By looking at the profile pages for Herbert Reginald Brown, Emily Sarah Timbrell Brown, you will see that we have gone as far as yearly electoral rolls.
Anyway, enough for now as I have jobs to do on my farm.
Kind Regards Keith & Lois Day
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Hi
Sorry to hear about your problems over Kenneth.
Just noticed that one of the witnesses on Herbert and Edith's marriage was Emily Annie Shelton.
She also witnessed the marriage of Albert Edward Soffe in Fulham a year later (1895)
You can find the Sheltons at 4 Windsor Place, Putney, in 1891 (piece 452 folio 146 page 13)
William and Eugenia are enumerated just as W and E
Emily Shelton is 13, and Albert, who is 12, is enumerated as Shelton, not Soffe (orJohnson!), even though it says stepson.
But no Edith! So as far as I know the 1901 census in Walthamstow is still the only sighting of her!
John
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There was an earlier workhouse admission for Eugenia
Admitted Islington Workhouse (St John's Road)
14 June 1875
Eugenia Soffe 23
Walter Soffe 6 mon
They were discharged 25 June 1875.
This must be a different, earlier Walter to the chap Rosie found?
So this is good news for us. As there is a settlement examination of Eugenia in Islington. Needless to say she was no longer living with William Soffe!
Will report back later
John
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Brief summary (examined 23 June 1875) -
Eugenia Soffe, 23. M(arried), 1 Ch, Pregnt, Admitted 14 June from 36 Shadwell Rd
I am now pregnant by Heather
Married William Henry Soffe, 28 March 1870, St Giles Camberwell
Lived with him 2 years and 9 months
Left him at Prospect Pl Back Rd Kingsld Decr 72
I have been living with Walter James Heather fm 14 March 74 - at 112 Cromer St. Pancras
1 child Walter born there 23rd Decr last
list of later addresses, etc
Husbd was Ostler to Tramway Co.
his parents deceased
3 sisters, Harriett Soffe, 15 Hanover St, Hanover Sqre
Housekeeper to Dr Jones
Sarah Soffe, address unknown
Caroline Williams, Kings Head or Arms back of Westmr Abbey
I am daur of Joseph Whitehorn
Birth, March 1875 Pancras 1b 65
Heather, Walter James
mother Whitehorn
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A bit academic now as far as William is concerned, but here they are in the 1871 census
Looks like Saffe, maybe it does say that?
piece 1340 folio 142 page 40
Surrey Villas, Tottenham
William Saffe Head Mar 27 Ostler, born Middx Westminster
Eugene Saffe Wife Mar 19 Needlewoman Middx Lambeth (or Lamberth?)
William Dyer Brother 11 Middx Hammersmith
Also at the address were the Ansell family
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Hi all, I had a look at Marriage Banns of HL Brown & Edith Soffe. Shows William Henry Soffe as Life-guard. I had him dead in 1887, in which case he should have been recorded as Deceased. So I guess my recording is incorrect. The occupation of life guard........., Do you have any ideas on the last word of occupation? THe marriage banns shows Edith Soffe as "20 years" in 1894 and 27 years in 1901 census but does appear to be the same person. Any thoughts? You have mentioned Eugenie and also Emily Annie Shelton. Can you draw a line that connects her with our Edith?
Kind regards Keith
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There is no requirement to ask whether a father is deceased when someone marries
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Rosie, thanks. In my research I did notice that Albert Edward's marriage banns showed William Henry Soffe as deceased in 1895 but not in 1894. The occupations were also different
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There was an earlier workhouse admission for Eugenia
Admitted Islington Workhouse (St John's Road)
14 June 1875
Eugenia Soffe 23
Walter Soffe 6 mon
They were discharged 25 June 1875.
This must be a different, earlier Walter to the chap Rosie found?
Baptism 1875 Islington of a Walter James Soffe illegitimate son of Eugenia - married woman
Death June qtr 1875 Walter James Soffe 0 Islington 1b 233 (Freebmd)
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You have mentioned Eugenie and also Emily Annie Shelton. Can you draw a line that connects her with our Edith?
The way I see it :-\
Eugenia married Wm Soffe and left him after just over 2 yrs.
She gave birth to Walter James Soffe as mentioned in my last post 1875
Workhouse records in 1880 list her with two Johnson/Soffe children - Edith 1877 & Albert 1878
JOHNSON, EDITH mmn WHITEHORN 1877 Sept Quarter in POPLAR 1C 591
JOHNSON, ALBERT EDWARD mmn WHITEHORN 1878 Dec Quarter WANDSWORTH 1D 606
Eugenia remarried William Edward Shelton
22 October 1882 at St James the Great, Bethnal Green
1891 shows William & Eugenia Shelton including Williams dtr Emily Shelton
Edith Johnson/Soffe daughter of Eugenia is your Edith who married Mr Brown.
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To Rosie and Jon, thank you so much for all the work you have done to find my great grandmother. She certainly had a chequered start. Can you tell from the Islington Workhouse 1880 where she went. The discharge says she went with son Albert at her own request. I would have thought that she should have shown up in 1881 census but can't find Eugenia, Albert nor Edith. If Edith was despatched as an orphan in 1880, would she show up on census. Also still looking for Edith Brown's death. 1911 census for Herbert Louis Brown shows him married not widower so I would presume that she died after 1911.
I am so impressed with your efforts. Kind regards Keith.
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Hi
I think I messed up with Edith's discharge in 1880 - it was from a Southwark workhouse - it probably says "To Aunt"
If so, possibly a maternal aunt, although Eugenia mentioned three sisters of Mr. Soffe I rather doubt whether she would have gone to one of them. Have you been able to find out anything about the Whitehorn family?
Eugenia seems to have been baptized at St Mary Lambeth, 15 April 1852. The name Dyer has come up in connection with the Whitehorns.
I would have thought Eugenia would most likely be somewhere in south London in 1881, but I haven't found her or her children anywhere. It's odd that Edith is still elusive (to me anyway!) in 1891.
If you are able to, I would think the best thing to do would be to try and get Edith's birth certificate.
JOHNSON, EDITH mmn WHITEHORN
1877 Sept Quarter in POPLAR Volume 01C Page 591
The children that Eugenia had after the split with William Soffe appear to have been registered as though the parents were married. Of course you never know for sure what it will say before you see it, but hopefully the certificate will name Mr. Johnson. It looks like that will be the only way you might get a line on Edith's father.
You'll also have her date of birth. Hoping she might still alive somewhere, you could try a search of the 1939 Register, looking for Edith's with that birth date. She probably wouldn't be Brown though.
It looks possible that history might have repeated itself, and that Edith split up from Herbert Brown sometime after 1901. If she then lived with someone else it would be very difficult to find her.
John