RootsChat.Com
England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Lancashire => Topic started by: Nikki Lund on Sunday 23 April 17 16:25 BST (UK)
-
Hi
I have been looking to find some more information regarding Joseph France and his earlier life. I have found his 1851, 1861, 1871 and 1881 census and have his birth, marriage and death info. The brick wall I'm hitting is finding out about his pre married life ie parents and siblings etc. I cannot find a 1841 census that fits him.
Here is the info I do know -
He was born on 10th Feb 1819 in Manchester. In April 1843 he married Elizabeth Preston and was a pattern card maker. He was married in Manchester Cathedral and his father is listed as Richard France who was a joiner. He was living in Cross St, Chortlon Upon Medlock in this period. In 1851 I believe he is living in Chester St, Hulme with his wife Elizabeth, daughter Maria and son Thomas and he is a warehouseman?. In 1861 he is living in Chester St (different number) with wife Elizabeth, son Thomas and daughter Elizabeth and he is a Pawnbroker. In 1871 he is a convict in Millbank Prison (for laundering stolen goods) and still listed as a Pawnbroker. In 1881 he is back living with Elizabeth (his wife), along with son Thomas, and daughters Alice and Maria and is listed as a Broker. He died on 28th Oct 1886 and is buried in Southern Cemetery, Manchester.
It's really frustrating me that I cant seem to find his family prior to his marriage. I have looked on Ancestry and various other sites but am drawing a blank. I have also tried to find Richard France but getting nowhere.
Would love some insight or ideas on where to go next with this.
Many thanks in advance
Nikki :)
-
Not sure if its him, but on the 1841 census there's a Josh France in Back Brook St [Chorlton Upon Medlicot subdistrict] aged 20, warehouseman, with a 12 yr old called William Thornhill
-
Hmm - it would fit with his age and area and if it shows him born in Manchester there would be another link but I can't place the name William Thornhill and it still doesn't help with father Richard. Many thanks for looking Mabel - it could well be him but I've no idea ???
-
Where did you find his birth date :-\
-
The 1881 entry is confusing - where has Alice come from and Maria is 20 years too young to be his daughter from previous censuses. She married a Thomas Prescott in 1868.
-
Nicky is it possible that he could be Scottish? I have France ancestry here in the Scottish Borders. I will look for a Joseph when I have time which unfortunately won't be this week! In the meantime you could try Scotland's People????
-
Hi Rosie99 - his birth date was taken from his medical record attached to his Millbank prison record of all places :D
Mabel - I'm quite confused by the entries for Maria as well - its perfectly possible that I have the 1851 census wrong (I'm quite confident with all the others). I'm guessing that maybe Alice was visiting elsewhere on the previous census - hence her absence from it. I cant make out Thomas DOB on the 1851 census either ???
Marysco - I'm fairly certain that Joseph was from Manchester according to all his censuses. :-\
-
but if you use the GRO index there is no Alice France mmn Preston, hence my concern
The children of the Joseph France - Elizabeth Preston marriage are:
Thomas: Q1 1844, Chorlton
Maria: Q3 1848, Chorlton
Elizabeth: Q3 1855, Chorlton
Thomas is on 1851, but his age is not very distinct.
I'm wondering if Joseph has another Elizabeth, and this Alice and Maria are her daughters. She's around the same age but says b Manchester. and Elizabeth Preston France tends to say born Blackburn. when the latter dies, her address is 32 Chester St (definitely her - administration to daughter Maria Prescott), but in 1881 Joseph is in Mount St.
-
Scrap that last bit - think I've worked it out. Maria and Alice are Thomas' daughters. he marries a Mary Ann Carter in 1862, and there's a Maria France mmn Carter b Chorlton in 1866 and Thomas and Mary Ann of Chester St baptise Alice Hales France in 1862
-
Yes - on my tree Thomas France (my 2nd great grandfather - and Josephs son) did marry Mary Ann Carter in 1862 and I have them down as having 2 children Alice b1862 and Maria b1867. Mary Ann died in 1871 and he then married Sarah Ellen Timperley (my 2nd great grandmother) in 1882 and they had 7 children.
-
Thanks Mabel - you've helped me make a bit more sense of the 1881 census now - I had Maria and Alice down as Josephs children as well as Thomas's children not realising the birth dates were duplicate ;D. Doh! -silly me :) Now just need to work out this pesky Josephs life - he is a puzzle at the moment.
-
Mary ann died later than 1871, as they had more children than you think
Rachel France baptised 7 Aug 1864
Joseph France baptised 19 Feb 1869
Joseph France baptised 28 May 1875
Thomas France baptised 2 Feb 1877
the GRO register confirms these as mmn Carter.
There's a death of a Mary Ann aged 31 in Chorlton in 1877
-
Wow that's an amazing find - I'll add these names to my tree and see what I can find. Thank you ;D
-
Not sure if its him, but on the 1841 census there's a Josh France in Back Brook St [Chorlton Upon Medlicot subdistrict] aged 20, warehouseman, with a 12 yr old called William Thornhill
This could be the William Thornhill baptised Manchester 23 Jun 1830, s/o William & Hannah Thornton Thornhill, a Cotton Spinner of Chorlton Row
On 19 May 1821 William Thornton Thornhill, Cotton Spinner & Bachelor married Anna France, Spinster at Manchester. Both signed X.
The only other child I can find for them is Mary in 1832, who I think is the Mary aged 31/2 buried at Chorlton in February 1836.
I cannot find William or Hannah in 1841. There was another couple of the same name having children around the same time, although that William is a Stay Maker & married Hannah Stoby.
Could Joseph therefore be the illegitimate son of Anna/Hannah France?
ADDED: Possibly worth enquiring here: http://www.rootschat.com/links/01jzd/
-
William & Hannah Thornhill may also have had a daughter, Jane, who married Thomas Tyson in June 1854 aged 21. At marriage Jane was living at Eagle Street, Hulme, and named her father as William Thornhill, Spinner.
I cant find a baptism for Jane though, nor can I find her on the 1841 census ::)
-
Hi Jomot :) Many thanks for your input into my mystery France family. It's an interesting theory to consider that Joseph may have been illegitimate but if this was the case, would his father Richard France have been present at the wedding? and named on the marriage parish record? ??? ??? I seem to have more questions than answers at the moment and maybe the only way forward would be to get Josephs birth certificate? That would at least hopefully have the mother on there. :-\
-
Hi Jomot :) Many thanks for your input into my mystery France family. It's an interesting theory to consider that Joseph may have been illegitimate but if this was the case, would his father Richard France have been present at the wedding? and named on the marriage parish record? ??? ??? I seem to have more questions than answers at the moment and maybe the only way forward would be to get Josephs birth certificate? That would at least hopefully have the mother on there. :-\
People who were illegitimate frequently gave false details regarding their fathers when they married so as to appear 'respectable'. Quite often however, there was some grain of truth in it, such as the correct forename and occupation of the biological father but not his surname (as this would reveal the illegitimacy).
Also Richard France wasn't a witness, so what evidence do you have that he was present at the wedding?
You would not be able to obtain a birth certificate from 1819 as civil registration didn't begin until 1837, and I've looked for a baptism but cant find one. However, if Joseph was illegitimate then you might find something naming both parents in the bastardy records I suggested.
-
Ahh - thanks Jomot :) I didn't consider that the details given by Joseph on his wedding day may have been false ones. I'm learning as I go here :P You are correct that Richard was not a witness, but Giles Preston was - the brides father. The other witness was an Ann Logan who is someone else I haven't placed yet. I will have another look at the link you kindly posted but not sure how to navigate it? What am I looking for here? Sorry to be a pain, but I haven't seen this site before. :-[
-
I think Ann Logan was formerly Ann Foxley and married John Logan, Joiner in January 1843. In 1851 they are living in Hulme. I cant see any obvious connection between the families, but they may simply have been friends or neighbours.
The link I gave you was to show you where the records are held - they are not available online.
Somebody may be able to do a look-up for you if you post on the Lancashire Look-up boards, or alternatively they offer a research service, although this involves a fee. You would be looking for a bastardy record involving a female with the surname France, and a male child born on or around Feb 1819 in Manchester.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01jzi/