Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: Erica Rae on Thursday 20 April 17 14:52 BST (UK)
Title: Margaret (Madge) M. Walker - Northampton
Post by: Erica Rae on Thursday 20 April 17 14:52 BST (UK)
Good day everyone,
I have searched high and low for years, and just cannot seem to find the birth date and mothers name of Margaret M. Walker. I would really appreciate any help offered.
I know she was born after 1912.
Her father was Clement Robertson Walker b. 1877, Devon and d. 1952, Northampton. Margaret is registered on the death certificate as the informant, living in Moulton, Northampton.
I know she was married to Edward (Ted) Fleetwood in 1989 in Northampton and he passed away in 2001 in Northampton.
Any assistance would be very much appreciated!
Title: Re: Margaret (Madge) M. Walker - Northampton
Post by: Milliepede on Thursday 20 April 17 15:15 BST (UK)
How old was she when she married - have you got a marriage for her father to ? mother
Title: Re: Margaret (Madge) M. Walker - Northampton
Post by: Milliepede on Thursday 20 April 17 15:19 BST (UK)
Could this be her father? Note transcribed as Walter not Walker
Marriage 28 Mar 1903 Hackney Clement Robertson Walter 25 father William Florence Edith Lough 21 father Edwin Henry
Title: Re: Margaret (Madge) M. Walker - Northampton
Post by: Erica Rae on Thursday 20 April 17 15:27 BST (UK)
Hi Milliepede,
I don't have an age when she got married - I think her husband was 89 yrs!
I can't find a marriage of her father to her mother...I have searched everywhere.
The below is her father, marrying his first wife. I know they had a daughter, Vera. He them seems to have been involved with my great grandmother, Hilda, and went by the name Robert. They had a son, my grandfather, Raymond.
Madge is Ray's half sister.
Title: Re: Margaret (Madge) M. Walker - Northampton
Post by: Milliepede on Thursday 20 April 17 15:32 BST (UK)
Unusual having a father but not a mother isn't it. How do you know he was her father just from her being the informant when he died?
Title: Re: Margaret (Madge) M. Walker - Northampton
Post by: Erica Rae on Thursday 20 April 17 15:38 BST (UK)
It states on his death certificate that the informant, Margaret, was his daughter.
I met her once and was told she was my grandfathers half sister.
As I understand, Florence remarried. I think it was a different Florence that died at 24 years, but I can't be sure...
My grandfather didn't know much about his father at all.
Title: Re: Margaret (Madge) M. Walker - Northampton
Post by: Milliepede on Thursday 20 April 17 15:41 BST (UK)
Yes you're right I removed the bit about Florence. She and her daughter are together after the death I posted sorry.
So Hilda wasn't the mother of Margaret either? Do you know when they parted ways, I take it Margaret was born some time after the other two - need an age for her really or area she was born :-\
Her death will give an approximate age so we could go backwards from there.
Title: Re: Margaret (Madge) M. Walker - Northampton
Post by: [Ray] on Thursday 20 April 17 15:49 BST (UK)
Hi
Vera Florence Walker (mmn Lough) 1905 QJun RochfordEssex 4a 72
Ray
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Title: Re: Margaret (Madge) M. Walker - Northampton
Post by: [Ray] on Thursday 20 April 17 15:51 BST (UK)
Grace Hilda White b1877
Title: Re: Margaret (Madge) M. Walker - Northampton
Post by: Milliepede on Thursday 20 April 17 15:57 BST (UK)
Have you checked the 1939 register for Margaret or her father - could they have been living together in Northampton.
Clement R Walker is quite an easy name to search for :)
Title: Re: Margaret (Madge) M. Walker - Northampton
Post by: [Ray] on Thursday 20 April 17 16:02 BST (UK)
1911 Search for ROBERT Walker aged 35 b Exeter He and GHW are together (15 mins up the road to me now).
1911 Search for his wife and daughter together ( with her nephew's family )
Ray
Title: Re: Margaret (Madge) M. Walker - Northampton
Post by: Milliepede on Thursday 20 April 17 16:09 BST (UK)
Don't know if this is related but marriage 1925 Middlesex
Clement Walker Alice Ford
and there is a Margaret M Walker birth mothers name Ford in Edmonton 1926
Title: Re: Margaret (Madge) M. Walker - Northampton
Post by: Milliepede on Thursday 20 April 17 16:13 BST (UK)
There's an Alice C Walker death in Northampton Dec 1939 age 54 which could be the same Alice but then again it might be someone completely different.
The Margaret M Walker birth is certainly worth a second look.
Title: Re: Margaret (Madge) M. Walker - Northampton
Post by: Erica Rae on Thursday 20 April 17 16:16 BST (UK)
Thank you Ray and Millipede!
I have just checked the 1939 register...and there is an Alice Walker b. 1892 and one other person (Margaret?) living with Clement in 1939!!!
I think you've found her....woohoo!
Title: Re: Margaret (Madge) M. Walker - Northampton
Post by: Milliepede on Thursday 20 April 17 16:30 BST (UK)
I do hope so :D
Title: Re: Margaret (Madge) M. Walker - Northampton
Post by: [Ray] on Thursday 20 April 17 16:34 BST (UK)
Birth 1877 QJun St Thomas Devon 5b 68 Clement Robertson Walker
That explains why he hid in Shaldon with GHW, he knew the area?
Ray
Title: Re: Margaret (Madge) M. Walker - Northampton
Post by: Erica Rae on Thursday 20 April 17 16:41 BST (UK)
I think you hit the nail on the head Ray
Title: Re: Margaret (Madge) M. Walker - Northampton
Post by: sugarbakers on Thursday 20 April 17 16:59 BST (UK)
This image c1950 is relevant to the entry in the 1939 register ... and the text mentions Walkers.
Title: Re: Margaret (Madge) M. Walker - Northampton
Post by: PrawnCocktail on Thursday 20 April 17 17:12 BST (UK)
There's an one-line report in the Northampton Mercury of 27 Nov 1942, where an application for the temporary transfer of the Blue Bell Inn, Moulton, from Clement Robertson Walker to Arthur Walker of 12 Lowlck-terrace, Moulton was granted.
Title: Re: Margaret (Madge) M. Walker - Northampton
Post by: sugarbakers on Thursday 20 April 17 18:18 BST (UK)
There's a marriage for Arthur Walker & Margaret M Skinner Jun 1931 Brixworth RD ....
... looks as if Margaret M Walker was in fact daughter-in-law ;)
Title: Re: Margaret (Madge) M. Walker - Northampton
Post by: Milliepede on Thursday 20 April 17 21:41 BST (UK)
Oh dear it's all going slightly wrong :o it did cross my mind at the start she could be a daughter in law but if so she wouldn't be a half sister :-\
Hmmm so who is Arthur Walker - more to the point who was his mother?
More investigating to do.
Title: Re: Margaret (Madge) M. Walker - Northampton
Post by: sugarbakers on Thursday 20 April 17 22:41 BST (UK)
Ummmm ...
the only one that I can find that makes any sense between 1911 census and married in 1931 would appear to be Arthur Alec Walker mmn White born Taunton Mar 1914 ... and he was still there in the 1939 reg !!
ADDED
But there is also Arthur William Walker mmn White born 1907 Paddington, and an Arthur William Walker died 1957 Northampton age 49. (Clement R Walker was in London 1900 onwards)
Title: Re: Margaret (Madge) M. Walker - Northampton
Post by: Milliepede on Friday 21 April 17 07:40 BST (UK)
Yes I agree sugarbakers with the Arthur William mothers name White as an option but he wasn't with them on census was he :-\
Bit concerned about Clement turning into Robert then back again. Is he definitely the same person.
Title: Re: Margaret (Madge) M. Walker - Northampton
Post by: Milliepede on Friday 21 April 17 09:13 BST (UK)
Tree has Arthur William born Paddington belonging to Francis Benjamin Walker and Emily Eliza White so dead herring there.
Title: Re: Margaret (Madge) M. Walker - Northampton
Post by: PrawnCocktail on Friday 21 April 17 09:42 BST (UK)
There's nothing to say Arthur Walker who took over the pub was a relative? Is the surname a co-incidence?
Title: Re: Margaret (Madge) M. Walker - Northampton
Post by: Milliepede on Friday 21 April 17 09:49 BST (UK)
Coincidence that his wife was also Margaret M certainly possible yes. Walker is rather a common name.
Title: Re: Margaret (Madge) M. Walker - Northampton
Post by: [Ray] on Friday 21 April 17 10:08 BST (UK)
"Bit concerned about Clement turning into Robert then back again. Is he definitely the same person."
If you look up the census I/we cannot mention, you will find GHW with "Robert Walker", in Shaldon, Devon. Marriage details make interesting reading
Robertson => Robert is not a huge jump?
Early 1900's (1903-1905-ish) CRWalker had (at least 2x) business failures. Maybe that was what prompted the "change"?
Ray
Title: Re: Margaret (Madge) M. Walker - Northampton
Post by: sugarbakers on Friday 21 April 17 10:18 BST (UK)
Agreed ... unrelated, maybe, but surely there would not have been more than one Margaret M Walker in the village at the time of Clement's death, so she must be the one the OP is looking for.
Married 1931, so the local person would be Margaret Mary Skinner born Wellingborough Dec 1909 to George & Mary living in Wellingborough. At least a dozen Arthur Walkers born locally at similar time.
Neither seem to appear on the 1939 reg, pity. Seems an odd time, 1942, for a youngish man to be taking over a pub ... I wonder what Arthur's circumstances were.
Title: Re: Margaret (Madge) M. Walker - Northampton
Post by: sugarbakers on Friday 21 April 17 11:06 BST (UK)
Now it's getting silly ;D ... the above mentioned Margaret Mary Skinner was the daughter of Mary Jane Willis (b. Moulton) and George Clements Skinner (b. Wellingborough) who married in 1902 Brixworth RD.
Title: Re: Margaret (Madge) M. Walker - Northampton
Post by: PrawnCocktail on Friday 21 April 17 11:28 BST (UK)
Margaret Mary Skinner born 7 Nov 1909, baptised 5 Dec 1909 Wellingborough St Barnabas
There was also Ivy Keziah Skinner born 1905
And George Alfred Skinner born 1912
Title: Re: Margaret (Madge) M. Walker - Northampton
Post by: Milliepede on Friday 21 April 17 11:34 BST (UK)
Would you believe it :o
We're looking for a bona fide daughter of Clement though the informant on his death half sister to the daughter of his first wife and half sister to the son he had later.
Do you think it's worth getting the Margaret M Walker birth with mothers name Ford? I think you can stipulate the fathers name has to be so and so when you order.
Title: Re: Margaret (Madge) M. Walker - Northampton
Post by: sugarbakers on Friday 21 April 17 12:06 BST (UK)
We're looking for a bona fide daughter of Clement ....
But are we ? Should we not be working backwards from the informant rather than trying to fit her into a family starting 1877 ?
I think Erica Rae might be wise to register with Francis Frith, and contact the poster of the information next to the photograph to see if she can glean more detailed info about the Walker family at the Blue Bell, Moulton.
Title: Re: Margaret (Madge) M. Walker - Northampton
Post by: Erica Rae on Friday 21 April 17 14:48 BST (UK)
It is getting rather confusing!
But I'm guessing the Margaret Walker would have been born after Clement and Alice's marriage in 1925. So then she couldn't be either of the 2 Margaret's mentioned above?
I see there are 2 births for a Margaret Walker with the mothers surname Ford in 1926 and 1932. Do you think they would be more likely to be our mysterious Margaret?
Thank you everyone so much for all the hard work you are putting in to help me solve this! Really appreciate it!
Title: Re: Margaret (Madge) M. Walker - Northampton
Post by: Milliepede on Friday 21 April 17 15:37 BST (UK)
We like a challenge ;D
The simplest way to narrow down a birth year is to find out how old she was when she passed away. She would be under her married name by then.
Title: Re: Margaret (Madge) M. Walker - Northampton
Post by: Milliepede on Friday 21 April 17 15:56 BST (UK)
Oh. I was looking at Grace Hilda White and a tree has her passing away in 1962 Lusaka? and son marrying in Nairobi goodness.
She and Robert Walker claim to be married c1905/6 but am guessing they weren't leaving him free to marry Alice in 1925. But what happened to Alice if she was Margaret's mother but unaware of who she was :-\
Title: Re: Margaret (Madge) M. Walker - Northampton
Post by: Milliepede on Friday 21 April 17 16:23 BST (UK)
Alice Walker born 13 Dec 1892 death Daventry district Northamptonshire Sep 1979 - a possible.
But I don't understand how Margaret didn't know who her mother was if Alice was around :(
Unless we have it all horribly wrong :-[
Title: Re: Margaret (Madge) M. Walker - Northampton
Post by: seahall on Saturday 22 April 17 14:33 BST (UK)
Hi.
I just went over to Moulton Cemetery and found and took a picture of Clement and Alice's headstone.
Sandy
Title: Re: Margaret (Madge) M. Walker - Northampton
Post by: seahall on Saturday 22 April 17 14:36 BST (UK)
It says
IN LOVING MEMORY OF CLEMENT WALKER DIED 6TH JAN 1952 AGED 74 YEARS AND ALICE HIS DEAR WIFE DIED 30TH JULY 1979 AGED 86 YEARS
Sandy
Title: Re: Margaret (Madge) M. Walker - Northampton
Post by: Erica Rae on Sunday 23 April 17 17:34 BST (UK)
Sandy....that is amazing! Thank you so so much for going to the trouble of finding the grave and taking a pic of the tombstone for me. I really can't thank you enough....that is so kind and much appreciated!
Title: Re: Margaret (Madge) M. Walker - Northampton
Post by: seahall on Monday 24 April 17 11:01 BST (UK)
You are most welcome Erica.
I was hoping it might have had more written on the inscription.
Sandy
Title: Re: Margaret (Madge) M. Walker - Northampton
Post by: cbowley on Monday 20 August 18 19:09 BST (UK)
Hi I am a great grandson of Clement Robertson Walker by his first marriage to Florence Edith Lough. Special hi to Erica Rae - with me, my siblings and cousins you've just acquired another 10 second cousins plus descendants. I only started looking at genealogy a month or so ago after a DNA match and I'm grateful for all the information so far put together on RootsChat. Hopefully I can add a contribution.
Clement and Florence married in 1903 and Vera, my grandmother, was born in 1905. The 1911 census shows Clement and Florence living apart. As discovered on RootsChat, Clement was travelling with Hilda Grace White. Clement had a business in Dalston, which is where Hilda lived, so it would be easy for them to meet. Florence and Vera had moved in with Clement's nephew, Grayson Stone. Interestingly, they maintained very good relations with the rest of the Walker side of the family. Grayson shows up centrally on Vera's wedding photo. We have several pictures of Clement's brothers and sisters and stories of Vera going to visit the Walker sisters (her aunts) in Bexhill. The Walkers seem quite virtuous and religious. A couple of them were active in the Congregational Church. Clement may be the black sheep of the family. He was also the youngest, being born 8 years after the next youngest. The others were more conventionally spaced.
In 1912 Florence and Vera travelled to the west coast of Canada, joining her sister. Three months after arriving Florence married Hugh Leo Taylor and seven months and one week later they had a son, Edwin Hugh Taylor (known as Uncle Ted). There are well-circulated family rumours that this was a bigamous marriage and the facts seem to back it up. On the marriage certificate Florence gave her father's middle name as her surname and slipped her birthdate by a couple of years. I haven't been able to find anybody that matches the details given by Hugh so he may also have been lying. There is also a suspicion, given the timescales, that Florence and Hugh knew each other before travelling. In 1915 Florence, Vera and Edwin show up in the immigration records travelling back to the UK. Hugh must also have travelled back some time but there is no matching immigration record. I'm looking forward to the release of the 1921 census to try and tie him down.
If Florence's 1912 marriage was bigamous then it backs up the idea that Clement and Hilda Grace White were not married when their son, Raymond Robert Walker, was born also in 1912. It also makes me wonder if Clement and Florence ever did properly divorce. Not only was it difficult in the 1920s but it would have raised questions about Florence's Canadian marriage to Hugh, who died in 1953, the year after Clement died.
Now onto stuff that is more directly relevant to this thread. I've attached some photos. The first shows a couple and child and a motorbike. The photo is labelled "Clement Robertson Walker, with Daisy and 'Madge'". The second photo is of Madge on her own and is labelled "Grandma C's 'step-sister' Margaret Walker". Grandma C is Vera, my grandmother. Unfortunately, there are no dates on the photos. It is tempting to assume that Daisy is Alice but Daisy is a nickname for Margaret. Also, my brother has pointed out that step-sister is a slightly odd term to use. Half-sister would be more appropriate if Clement is Margaret's biological father. Maybe she was already born before Daisy and Clement got together. Anyway, it is probable that this Margaret is the daughter that reported Clement's death.
The third photo shows Clement and Florence shortly after they were married. Notice how much younger Clement looks than in the first photo. The gap would be about 25 years.
The fourth photo shows some of Clement's siblings. John is left, back. Willie is right, back. Annie is left, front. Mary (Polly) is right, front. The sisters Annie and Mary married a couple of brothers, the Nordens. Unfortunately Annie's spouse died a few months after they married. Mary's spouse also died early, just before their fourth child was born, and the two sisters ended up living together.
I have some more photos, in particular one of Vera as a teenager standing outside the Ferry Boat Inn. This ties back to Clement being listed as the licensee in 1922 and shows that they were still on visiting terms. The Ferry Boat Inn is vaguely known in family stories but nobody still alive knows the details.
I use FamilySearch to collect all my information. If you'd like to see Clement's details so far then go to https://www.familysearch.org/tree/person/L1C2-DQY (https://www.familysearch.org/tree/person/L1C2-DQY)