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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: Dannyboy20 on Friday 07 April 17 01:22 BST (UK)
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I've recently discovered something in my family history, I've discovered that my great grandparents had a child out of wedlock, and that apparently, according to a family member, they were Protestant, but I've found them both on census and they are both listed as Roman Catholics, Did they pretend to be Protestants to cover up their child out of wedlock? Did this happen in the Republic of Ireland back then? I thought this type of thing may have happened in Northern Ireland but not the Republic, they both have irish surnames too. Any help on this subject will be greatly appreciated
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Unless your looking at a census from after 1949, than they were not in the Republic of Ireland as it didn't exist.
At the time of the 1901 and 1911 Censuses it was Ireland. There was no Northern Ireland or Irish Free State (later Republic of Ireland).
Maybe your family member is incorrect, maybe the couple converted, maybe one of them converted in order to marry.
What religious denomination they were isn't going to make any difference to the fact they had a child before they married.
Have you looked at the original image of the census, maybe there is an error.
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Danny boy, when is "back then"?
If you're talking about pre-1900, then it is often documented that, for 'religio-political' purposes, when England required everyone in Ireland to be almost anything but Catholic, people gave 'lip service' to being Protestant even though at heart they were Catholic.
Dawn M
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Danny boy, when is "back then"?
If you're talking about pre-1900, then it is often documented that, for 'religio-political' purposes, when England required everyone in Ireland to be almost anything but Catholic, people gave 'lip service' to being Protestant even though at heart they were Catholic.
Dawn M
Not strictly true. It wasn't just a Protestant versus Catholic thing. The Church of Ireland was the Established or State church and discriminated against everyone else- Catholics, Presbyterians, Methodists, etc.
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No error it is definitley Roman Catholic for both, I think they may have pretended to be Protestant to avoid discrimination. This was in the early 20th century around the 20s and 30s, I just find it hard to believe that religion caused this much of a divide, Im Catholic myself and I cant imagine being discriminated against just because of my religion or doing the same to somebody else because of theirs.
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How would pretending to be Protestant avoid discrimination?
All the Christian denominations disapprove of having children outside of wedlock.
What church did they marry in?
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No error it is definitley Roman Catholic for both, I think they may have pretended to be Protestant to avoid discrimination. This was in the early 20th century around the 20s and 30s, I just find it hard to believe that religion caused this much of a divide, Im Catholic myself and I cant imagine being discriminated against just because of my religion or doing the same to somebody else because of theirs.
Are you talking about the Irish Free State AKA Southern Ireland that would eventually become the Republic of Ireland? In the 1920s and 1930s? If so then Catholics were an overwhelming majority in this state and most of those in government were Catholics:-
"92.6% of the south's population were Catholic while 7.4% were Protestant"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church_in_Ireland
Blue
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Anent "Children out of wedlock!" the establishment in Ireland regarded kids christened in non-conformist churches as not being legitimate.
Skoosh.
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No error it is definitley Roman Catholic for both, I think they may have pretended to be Protestant to avoid discrimination. This was in the early 20th century around the 20s and 30s, I just find it hard to believe that religion caused this much of a divide, Im Catholic myself and I cant imagine being discriminated against just because of my religion or doing the same to somebody else because of theirs.
Hello,
Initially you say that 'according to a family member they were Protestant' but you have evidence through a census that they were Catholic.
Was the Protestantism before or after that census? Do you have marriage and baptismal records?
Were they buried as Catholics or Protestants?
Perhaps they just changed their faith if it all happened later.
The circumstances seem, at the moment, to be very vague.
Regards
Heywood
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What folks put in the census is locked away for a century & therefore of little consequence in the scheme of things.
Skoosh.
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What folks put in the census is locked away for a century & therefore of little consequence in the scheme of things.
Skoosh.
Latest available census for Ireland is 1911- which could easily include people married in 1920s/1930s. When looking at Irish census records it's important to compare both 1901 and 1911 as it's not uncommon, for various reasons, to see different religions from one to the other.
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Perhaps for the safety of the child.
Religion was changed
To suit the times.
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Perhaps for the safety of the child.
Religion was changed
To suit the times.
In what way would the child be safer?
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Why should it not ???
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Safer from what?
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War who is it good for. :o
There again might have been the mother in laws wishes ;D
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Being a Presbyterian or RC excluded a child from university, inheriting land, getting an army commission etc. Irish Presbyterians crossed to Scotland for an education & Scotland of course had its own penal laws against non-conformists, Episcopalians for example!
Skoosh.
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This is about the 1920s and 1930s though which is a puzzling setting for "Catholics pretending to be Protestants in Ireland".
Blue
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I don't think we are talking about the same thing.
The question was
Did they pretend to be Protestants to cover up their child out of wedlock?
How would pretending to be Protestants cover up the fact their child was illegitimate?
People pretended to be married, pretending the child was younger so it appeared to be born after the marriage but I have never heard of any one pretending to be Protestants to hid an illegitimate birth.
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Do you have the child out of wedlock's baptism? Was it a RC or C of I baptism? Could there have been a problem with the local RC priest and the family went to a C of I church and had the child baptised there instead?
Blue
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It sounds like a simple case of a family story being wrong. :)
It's a recurring theme.
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Wouldn't it be good if Danny boy came back and explained a bit more. ;)
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It sounds like a simple case of a family story being wrong. :)
It's a recurring theme.
More than likely,
and if this happened
Wouldn't it be good if Danny boy came back and explained a bit more. ;)
we might be able to figure it out once and for all.
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Better 5 years late than never! They were both Catholics but had a child of wedlock...the Catholic Church would not marry them...so they indeed were married in a Church of Ireland ceremony.
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This still sounds a little odd, perhaps a story misheard or misinterpreted.
I have never heard of an RC church refusing to marry a couple because they had a child before marriage. I have not heard of a RC church refusing to baptise the child of RC parents whether married or not. Perhaps one of the parties was not actually a Catholic and it was a case of the RC church not wanting to marry a couple if one would not give up their faith on marriage. My RC grandmother was excommunicated from the RC church when marrying my Anglican grandfather. On his death she was received back into the church. None of the 9 children were brought up RC.
Here in NZ anyway those who had religious problems often were married at a Registry Office.
Have you checked the two census for religion details? What did they say?
My other gt grandfather was Presbyterian and he married in and had his children baptised in CoI churches in Co Londonderry but was buried from the Presbyterian church here in NZ.
Were the children brought up Church of England/Ireland?
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I'm going purely off of what I have heard from my mother...they were both Catholics, on the census too....but they were for some reason married in a Church of Ireland Church in Dublin...the children were raised in that faith as far as I know, with classic Irish Catholic names...they were all born and raised in County Wicklow...believe me it puzzles me too. My grandmother married my grandfather a Catholic, a devout Catholic untill she died, buried as one too.
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Welcome back :)
Do you have their marriage?
Do you have the birth registration of the child in question?
Would you like to share their names with us?
Perhaps they married in C o I because they somehow wanted to cover up the birth of their child prior to the marriage. The child might have been presented for Baptism with them posing as a married couple.
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I'm going purely off of what I have heard from my mother...they were both Catholics, on the census too....but they were for some reason married in a Church of Ireland Church in Dublin...the children were raised in that faith as far as I know, with classic Irish Catholic names...they were all born and raised in County Wicklow
When was the marriage and when were the births?
Both civil laws and religious requirements regarding marriage were a bit confusing in Ireland in 19th & early 20th century and they changed during that period. That's why we can't try to answer your questions with confidence unless we know when events occurred.
Have you considered that your great grandparents may have had a later wedding ceremony in a Catholic church?
Added. Which census? Was it when they were a married couple? How long did they say they had been married?
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...they were both Catholics, on the census too....but they were for some reason married in a Church of Ireland Church in Dublin...the children were raised in that faith as far as I know, with classic Irish Catholic names...they were all born and raised in County Wicklow
Was it the Long -McIntyre wedding at St. Paul's, Dublin in 1925?
Threads about the family with marriage certificate on one and link to it on another.
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=768661
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=768771
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=768798
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=768802
I think it has "by licence" handwritten. That suggests to me that the wedding was arranged quickly.
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...they were both Catholics, on the census too....but they were for some reason married in a Church of Ireland Church in Dublin...the children were raised in that faith as far as I know, with classic Irish Catholic names...they were all born and raised in County Wicklow
Was it the Long -McIntyre wedding at St. Paul's, Dublin in 1925?
Threads about the family with marriage certificate on one and link to it on another.
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=768661
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=768771
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=768798
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=768802
I think it has "by licence" handwritten. That suggests to me that the wedding was arranged quickly.
I was just about to post the same, don't know where they are in the census though.
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http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Dublin/Arran_Quay/Phibsborough_Road/48555/ this is I believe my great grandmother Mary, as my grandmother was Grace Frances...my great grandfather John Joseph I am seeming to have difficulty finding...there is one in Arklow on that website but he died in 1943 aged 57, I have his death certificate.
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http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Dublin/Arran_Quay/Phibsborough_Road/48555/ this is I believe my great grandmother Mary, as my grandmother was Grace Frances...
So, your gt grandmother was Mary Frances McIntyre aged 13 in the 1911 census, and living in Phibsborough Road (Arran Quay, Dublin).
Here's her birth record- MMN Delaney
Born 21 August 1897 at 6? Grattan Parade, Dublin.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1897/02107/1802125.pdf
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That's right, and thankyou for the additional information! This here is my great grandfather John Joseph's death certificate
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1943/04656/4238936.pdf at the bottom, Knockanree, Avoca.
It's very puzzling to me to say the least this whole thing! He's the one I have trouble finding, it says he died aged 57 in 1943.
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I'm reading the marriage cert as saying her father is Stephen.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1925/09139/5305477.pdf
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That's also another thing that I can't work out...could her father have died and maybe Stephen, an uncle signed it?
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Doesn't matter if her father was dead or alive he has to be named on the cert unless he is unknown, no one else can be named in his place.
People who didn't know who there father was might make up an name.
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Also it is not signed by Stephen, the Registar is copying out the information supplied by the person who conducted the marriage.
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Oh okay...that's very odd then..why has she not said her father's real name? It's all very strange!
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You don't know that she didn't, you think the girl in the census is her but she may not be, do you know she came from Dublin, the marriage gives where she was living at the time she married not where she is from.
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Yes family members have said she came from Dublin. I'm 99% sure the girl in the census is her, my grandmothers name was Grace Frances, and as you can see, she has a sister called that.. it may indeed just be coincidence but I'm positive that is her...I'm wishing I never decided to research that side now! Lol its very weird. Also thankyou all for the help so far!
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As you can tell I'm not very experienced at doing this kind of research, it's just fascinating learning family history, I'll probably get the hang of it one day!
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Patrick McIntyre is a Manager and traveller, Commercial Traveller on his death cert, Stephen is a labourer.
This isn't adding up?
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No it really isn't, there's not much information I've got from my family members, they have said she was from Dublin, unless they are only doing the same as what I did? My grandmother died years ago I cannot ask her. None of that side know much, but it's only what I was told. Nobody alive would have met her so there's nothing except what family say....its extremely puzzling and I'm thinking of just giving up lol
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Have you tracked back from your mother to your grandmother, looking at your mother's birth certificate who are the names of her parents as listed.
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My mother's parents are Grace Frances Long, and James Joseph Hayden...my grandfathers side I've already researched, no problems like this with his...my nanny Grace is the difficulty!
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On the death cert for John Joseph Long it says ex Army, do you know about this Army service?
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I know nothing at all about that I'm afraid to say...I have literally, near On zero knowledge of that side....which army would that have been?
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The only knowledge is my grandmother Grace was born and raised in Avoca in County Wicklow...and her parents names...that's all I know.
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I know nothing at all about that I'm afraid to say...I have literally, near On zero knowledge of that side....which army would that have been?
Could be either, if as the death cert suggests he was born 1885ish he could have joined the British Army and that is where he trained to be engine fitter and might explain why we can't find him in the census, but it could have been the Irish Army after 1922. Did you ever get his daughter's marriage cert, that would have his occupation at the time she married.
Do you know when his wife died or her age at the time?
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The only knowledge is my grandmother Grace was born and raised in Avoca in County Wicklow...and her parents names...that's all I know.
I know this information is on one of your other threads, but would you tell us again the names of Grace's parents + her father's occupation on her birth registration?
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I don't know when my gt grandmother Mary died unfortunately...their names are John Joseph Long and Mary Frances McIntyre...my grandparents married in Rathdrum, Wicklow in 1952
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Also would her fathers occupation be on the marriage cert too if I can find that?
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Yes.
Her father’s name and occupation would be on the marriage certificate.
This might help re applying for the certificate
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/en/civil-records/help/i-want-to-get-a-copy-of-a-certificate-what-do-i-do
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Grasping at straws here
There is a John Joseph Long born 1887 to John Long and Maryanne Kelly in Greystones, think the father is a gardener.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1887/02573/1951320.pdf
and there is a John Long born Wicklow c1887 Royal Engineers during WWI. WR/502503
Some of the Census records for Greystones in 1901 appear to be missing and I don't see the family in 1911.
If he only served for WWI it's a bit of a push to but ex Army on his death cert.
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Thankyou very much. I think that's him as On the marriage certificate to my gt grandmother his father is listed as John Long. I think I will apply for a birth certificate for my grandmother and go from there
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Then you can work back. That’s good.
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I'm beginning to believe my great grandmother Mary converted from her Catholic religion to marry my great grandfather John Joseph...who was a member of the Church of Ireland religion...her fathers name was name was Patrick, could she have lied about his name, saying Stephen as if she said her father's real name, an instantly recognisable Catholic name, they would have raised an eyebrow in that church they were married in? This was 1925 after all
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I could be absolutely wrong but I am just assuming, trying to make sense of it.
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If she converted to be a member of the CoI church there is absolutely no reason to alter the marriage certificate. Perhaps her father was baptised Stephen but called Patrick...often happened if the child, say, grew up resembling an ancestor called Patrick. My family is CoI & Presbyterian and we have a Bridget in our family baptised in 1899, also considered by some to be a 'Catholic' name.
I think perhaps some more sleuthing is needed on the names etc of these ancestors of yours
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Mary Frances on the Census has a sister Eileen born 1898
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1898/02063/1788402.pdf
When their mother died in 1940 Eileen is the informant
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1940/04731/4265381.pdf
When Eileen dies in 1941
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1941/04711/4258353.pdf
Administration is granted to Mary McIntyre spinster
http://nai.adlibhosting.com/files/Courts/High%20Court/Probate%20Office/Will%20Calendars/Calendar%20of%20grants%20of%20probate%20of%20wills%20and%20letters%20of%20administration%201941.pdf
Not sure if that last link will work correctly so page 518
Is Mary McIntyre spinster Mary Frances of the Census.
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I'm beginning to believe my great grandmother Mary converted from her Catholic religion to marry my great grandfather John Joseph...who was a member of the Church of Ireland religion...her fathers name was name was Patrick, could she have lied about his name, saying Stephen as if she said her father's real name, an instantly recognisable Catholic name, they would have raised an eyebrow in that church they were married in? This was 1925 after all
I don't buy that scenario.
Did the Church of Ireland require both parties to a marriage to be baptised members of C. of I in 1925? Current regulation is that at least 1 party "shall have been baptised and is a member of C. of I. or of a Church in full communion therewith, unless in exceptional circumstances, the bishop shall determine otherwise." I assume it was the same in 1925.
What evidence do you have that your great-grandfather was C of I.?
Are you certain that the marriage in Dublin in 1925 was that of your great-grandparents?
https://www.irish-geneaography.com/hunting-for-irish-marriages.html
You said previously that the story in your family was that a Catholic priest refused to marry them. That seems more plausible if only one of them was R.C.
The Catholic Church became stricter about marriage in the early decades of 20th century. "Ne temere" decree on marriage (1907, effective from Easter 1908)) required marriages involving a Catholic to take place in the bride's parish, in the presence of a Catholic priest and that the marriages be recorded in the place/places where the contracting parties were baptised. The Code of Canon Law was set out and published by the Catholic Church in 1917.
A wedding of a Catholic and someone who wasn't Catholic in a Catholic church would require a dispensation. The priest had to be confident that the Catholic spouse would still be able to practise their faith and that children of the marriage would be brought up in the faith. The non-Catholic party had to agree to those requirements if the marriage was to happen in a Catholic church.
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Yes it is definitely them...my grandmother was Grace Frances, she also has a sister called Eileen Frances, and a brother called John Joseph, to me it's too much of a coincidence. I think all of this is being complicated by that family story. I will definitely order a copy of my grandmother's birth certificate, but from Ancestry, all of my nans siblings have McIntyre listed as the Maiden name of the mother.
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Also on John Joseph's death cert, it says "Knockanree Avoca" that is where my grandmother was from.
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Mary Frances on the Census has a sister Eileen born 1898
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1898/02063/1788402.pdf
When their mother died in 1940 Eileen is the informant
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1940/04731/4265381.pdf
When Eileen dies in 1941
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1941/04711/4258353.pdf
Administration is granted to Mary McIntyre spinster
http://nai.adlibhosting.com/files/Courts/High%20Court/Probate%20Office/Will%20Calendars/Calendar%20of%20grants%20of%20probate%20of%20wills%20and%20letters%20of%20administration%201941.pdf
Not sure if that last link will work correctly so page 518
Is Mary McIntyre spinster Mary Frances of the Census.
Mary F McIntyre single of 64 Lr Drumcondra Rd. died 20 Sept 1979
https://buried.fingal.ie/wp-assets-bif/uploads/register-scans/St_Fintans_1973_1_069.jpg
and is in the same plot as Gertie
https://buried.fingal.ie/wp-assets-bif/uploads/register-scans/St_Fintans_1973_1_133.jpg
Owner of grave Miss Grace McIntyre sister, who is also in the same plot
https://buried.fingal.ie/wp-assets-bif/uploads/register-scans/St_Fintans_1973_1_200.jpg
Irish Independent Sept 21 1979
McIntyre (Dublin) Sept 20 1979 at the Maher Hospital Mary Frances (Maiche) eldest daughter of the late Patrick and Catherine McIntyre 64 Lr Drumcondra Rd. deeply regretted etc.
Mary Frances McIntyre of the 1911 Census never married.
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Mary Frances on the Census has a sister Eileen born 1898
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1898/02063/1788402.pdf
When their mother died in 1940 Eileen is the informant
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1940/04731/4265381.pdf
When Eileen dies in 1941
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1941/04711/4258353.pdf
Administration is granted to Mary McIntyre spinster
http://nai.adlibhosting.com/files/Courts/High%20Court/Probate%20Office/Will%20Calendars/Calendar%20of%20grants%20of%20probate%20of%20wills%20and%20letters%20of%20administration%201941.pdf
Not sure if that last link will work correctly so page 518
Is Mary McIntyre spinster Mary Frances of the Census.
Mary F McIntyre single of 64 Lr Drumcondra Rd. died 20 Sept 1979
https://buried.fingal.ie/wp-assets-bif/uploads/register-scans/St_Fintans_1973_1_069.jpg
and is in the same plot as Gertie
https://buried.fingal.ie/wp-assets-bif/uploads/register-scans/St_Fintans_1973_1_133.jpg
Owner of grave Miss Grace McIntyre sister, who is also in the same plot
https://buried.fingal.ie/wp-assets-bif/uploads/register-scans/St_Fintans_1973_1_200.jpg
Irish Independent Sept 21 1979
McIntyre (Dublin) Sept 20 1979 at the Maher Hospital Mary Frances (Maiche) eldest daughter of the late Patrick and Catherine McIntyre 64 Lr Drumcondra Rd. deeply regretted etc.
Mary Frances McIntyre of the 1911 Census never married.
Well then I'm absolutely stumped...none of it is adding up....
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Obviously that isn't my great grandmother then, she was another Mary McIntyre it would seem...my great grandfather is no longer a mystery, so thankyou for all the information as he was for a good while! Like I said I think the best thing is to order a birth cert for my grandmother.
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No, John Joseph is still a mystery, it's only a possible birth for him, it needs to be confirmed.
I think you should order your grandmother birth and marriage certs to see if either have a mention of John Joseph's army service.
Also ask the family if anyone has any idea when Mary (McIntyre) Long died, or where she and John Joseph are buried. We need to get an idea of her age. I'm still looking for a death notice for her but it's not looking good.
It may prove the case you'll have to wait until the 1926 Census comes online in 2027 to see what they say about their ages and birth places.
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Could it be she was from somewhere other than Ireland? I know McIntyre is a Scottish surname, could she have been Scottish?
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Could it be she was from somewhere other than Ireland? I know McIntyre is a Scottish surname, could she have been Scottish?
There are McIntyres in Ireland.
Rather than pondering this I would do as Sinann suggests and get the birth and death certificates of your grandmother ......they are the essential building blocks that will enable you to do further research. If you have not got your parents certificates then get these as well.
I would get the printout, ie copies of the original documents.
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My maternal G/grandmothers were baptised Catholic in Co. Kerry 1850s. Brought up and married Protestant
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Could it be she was from somewhere other than Ireland? I know McIntyre is a Scottish surname, could she have been Scottish?
There are McIntyres in Ireland.
Rather than pondering this I would do as Sinann suggests and get the birth and death certificates of your grandmother ......they are the essential building blocks that will enable you to do further research. If you have not got your parents certificates then get these as well.
I would get the printout, ie copies of the original documents.
Yes that's gonna be my next step. Then I can stop all the pondering! Thanks for all the help everyone has given me, much appreciated. :)