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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Lanarkshire => Topic started by: OZScot on Thursday 06 April 17 08:22 BST (UK)
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Hello All,
I need some help to solve this Ancestor of a close friend of mine that I'm doing an Family tree for.
You will be placed in the Genius class if you can or shed some light.
I have never come across, from a man who was obviously an articulate man who could read and write, who had a responsible well paying job in his day and who would plainly know all of the correct details for which he had to give on such things like BDM's & travel documents etc., I have to conclude that they were most likely fabricated and intentional or just plain Bizarre.!!
Unless someone can find a missing piece or pieces or a known family reason, I have to say it is intentional, but why I have no idea and can only surmise. I'll lay out some facts for investigation.
His name is either Gordon Blair [most used] or James Gordon Blair used often, but I haven't yet seen Gordon James Blair. He married Jane Norval on 7 June 1850 in Glasgow Lanarkshire - Fact.
I have seen Janet Norval and Jane Jamieson Norval as well, when her name is used. She had been married or most likely not to Henry Schawbe and they had a child Jane Drummond Schawbe or Norval but Henry died before her birth.
Gordon's birth is as used by him on documents is any of 1826, 1828, 1832, 1847 ... there are more if I dig deeper but that'll give you an idea what has been used. Also his place of birth is as much varied too. Stirling, Stirlingshire, St. Ninians, Glasgow and Dumfries to name some. His parents are listed as John & Jane Blair - farmers.
Back to Gordon & Jane Norval. They had 5 children Georgina was the 1st 15 Nov 1850 and the next 4 all died within a short time frame. One that may be the hardest to find was an unnamed child born 10 July 1852 the others are well documented.
Now it gets interesting because I next find Gordon Blair arriving by ship the Mangerton on 7 Aug 1861 in Brisbane sunny Queensland ... alone !!. He states he is 19yrs, farm labourer born Stirlingshire. Before leaving he had a job as a 'Law Clerk' but states farm labourer. Hmmm .... keep the law clerk to the front of matters as it will reappear in Qld.
Where is Jane Blair? I found her in the 1861 Census living as a boarder 27yrs with her daughter Georgina now 9yrs and the head is listed as Esther Jamieson 27yrs same age and that 'Jamieson' name & may be related?. Jane has reverted back to her Maiden name Norval for her and Georgina.
Did they divorce? I can't find one maybe someone can? I would like to think so because the deceit on his certificates continues in Qld.
Did he divorce or did he have a major bust up with Jane and leave amicably ? or did he desert and board ship and lie about his age & job qualifications to be hard to find. He left on that ship from Plymouth. Long way from anyone to detect him back then and why not leave from Glasgow where he was working?
More to come as I have overstepped the size quota.
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Gordon or James Gordon's birth hasn't been registered so he can pick any birth or age he wants to be. A few years after being in Brisbane a very young colony crying out for educated men and women and Gordon soon finds work as he can read and write and people from Scotland were renown as the most well educated of the immigrants. He finds work - not as a farm labourer - but in the law office of the Hon. Arthur Macalister in Ipswich. Farm labourer indeed !!!
His talent is being noted and he is next found working for Her Majesty's Customs in Brisbane and was appointed 8 May 1865 as a clerk and was soon promoted to Chief Clerk & Locker. Next another promotion he is now sub-collector of Customs of Ipswich. His star is shining and he meets a lady which he soon marries, Julia Droughton on 7 July 1876 in the Manse Anne Street Brisbane.
On the MC he says he is 29yrs - so born 1847 at - Dumfries. He says he is a batchelor not widowed or married before. He is 19 yrs when he arrived in 1861 born 1842. More deception? or just a bad memory. His Bio says he died just short of his 68th birthday. He died 23 Aug 1900 ipswich that makes born 1832. It says he landed here 40 yrs ago that makes 1860 landing close enough. If he's 68 yrs and landed here 40 yrs ago he was 28 yrs when he came, not 19 yrs and birth about 1842.
His marriage produced 4 children the 1st of which Elizabeth dies likely at birth in 1863. That's 4 children in row he has lost in 'both' marriages includes the one to Jane Norval he denies. Strangely
he registers the girls births but not his 2 boys!!! A bit more than weird for a law and customs clerk who need to be accurate in everything they do, write and say. Hmmm ...
The only thing correct or factual I can find about Gordon Blair is his marriage dates and his death date. I hope someone can enlighten me as to a mistake, more hidden information, a divorce or what ever even a birth certain year would be great.
To top this story all off is his last born and son James William Blair who's birth wasn't registered in Qld but he became quite an important figure in Queensland. Best guesstimate is 16 May 1871 at Coalfalls Ipswich Qld. He was admitted to the Qld Bar 6 Mar 1894 and quickly rose through the ranks to become Qld Solicitor General and Government leader in the Upper House. In 1893 he was elected Attorney General until April 1898 when he became Premier at age 37yrs. Unfortunately we weren't going to see the best of Sir James William Blair, yes he was Knighted. That same year he died 27 Sep 1898 after having a bout of 'measles' which was soon followed up by pneumonia and cardiac failure. He died before his father 'Gordon' Blair.
Any comments and information will be most welcome.
Regards.
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Hi OS
Can you do a summary please of what his name was on each doc. such as marriages, kids births, travel & where he was supposedly born on docs relevant etc?
I looked for a divorce using Blair/Norval but I haven't tried any variant of the surname Norval yet.
Divorce would be rare back then but who knows?
Have you found him on any census' in Scotland & what name, age & P.o.b did he give?
Annie
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Thanks for your reply and offer of help Rosinish.
I have just received an email for a request of information from The Ipswich Cemetery Qld as I knew he was buried there but no records online and they have been kind enough to go through their files.
Sad to say but damage by the 1974 floods and vandalism has destroyed headstones and their whereabout etc. However they managed to find this information below.
Gordon Blair
Aged 66 yrs at time of death
Date of death: 23/08/1900
Date of burial: 24/08/1900
Burial number: 006611
Occupation: Customs Officer
Funeral Home/Undertaker: J W Reed
Grave location: Presbyterian B (Section) unmarked grave (no headstone or grave marker)
Record comments: POSSIBLY ASSOCIATED WITH WIFE AND DAUGHTER (P00151 & 7966) BDM - SON/JOHN BLAIR & JANE
John and Jane as last mentioned would be his parents names.
1841 Census: he is Gordon Blair age 15 Born Stirlingshire St Ninians Cambusbarron abt 1826.
others- Jean Blair 20, Elizabeth Blair 19. Strangely no one else.
1851 Census: he is Gordon Blair age 23 born St Winians living Calton 18 Clyde st. Solicitors Clerk
born abt 1828. Others- Jane Blair 21, Georgina Blair 4 mo.
1861 Census: I can't find him as he is likely travelling to board that ship in Plymouth but I found Jane Norval age 27 Born Glasgow abt 1834 she is a boarder and she's working as a stay-maker and Georgina is now 9yrs. Head is Esther Jemeison [as spelt] and the address is 40 Maxwell street
1861: Brisbane Qld - Gordon Blair age 19yrs farm labourer - Stirlingshire.
1863: 3 April Elizabeth is born and he is Gordon Blair 31yrs & Clerk. Mother Julia Droughton 25yr born Ireland. Gordon says they are married in 1863 in Ipswich Qld. --- lie. All the children were born
between 1863 & 1870 out of wedlock. They weren't married until 7 July 1876 in Ipswich. Not a good look for the Attorney General of Qld.
More information to follow.
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Hi
What precise details are provided on his QLD death certificate?
Is every column completed with information required?
Sue
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1864 26 May: Isabella Dun Blair is born to Gordon Blair & Julia Droughton.- from an index only
1867 21 Aug: Henry Gordon Blair is born and never registered. That date came from Sir James' Bio
and it was retrieved from school records.
1870 16 May 1871: James William Blair was born and again not registered and again retrieved
and it was retrieved from school records.
Mystery why only the girls registered and not the boys? Maybe the 'B' word?
On Ancestry records the 1st 2 children born with Jane Norval the father is Gordon Blair, the next 2 children the father is James Gordon and the last is back to Gordon and Jane is Janet.
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Thanks Sparrett for you enquiry.
*** I have a copy of the DC courtesy of Dianne Fryga.
Everything is filled out and it says his father John Blair was a Hotel Keeper.
Mother was Jane Dun.
I know from the MC that his father at that time presumably was a farmer as was Julia's father.
It says he was born Glasgow, Lanark and he had been here 40 yrs. Death was certified by son J.W.Blair.
It list the children still alive as Isabella Dun 36, Henry Gordon 34, James William 30.
It says he was married at age 24 [on the MC he says 29 & Julia 27]
Suffered 4 days.
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You have a lot of information here, and it is difficult to consider the possibilities. You are researching the origins of this man -
QLD BDM marriage
1876 / B5281 BLAIR Gordon m. DROUGHTON Julia
Can you please list all the information on this certificate.
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Hi OS,
"1841 Census: he is Gordon Blair age 15 Born Stirlingshire St Ninians Cambusbarron abt 1826.
others- Jean Blair 20, Elizabeth Blair 19. Strangely no one else"
Are any of the above listed as 'Head'?
Not sure if it's a transcription or the actual image but have you looked at the previous page as his parents should/may be on it?
If the parents are there, the info of where he was born is more likely where he was actually born?
Annie
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Hi Wivenhoe.
Gordon's First:
When & where married: 7 July 1876 Brisbane - Manse Ann street
Name or Profession: Gordon Blair
Age: 29
Bachelor or Spinster: Bachelor
Birth place: Dumfries Dumfrieshire Scotland
Rank or Profession: Freeholder
Usual place of residence: Stanthorpe
Parents: John & Jane Blair
Father's rank or profession: Farmer
Julia Droughton.
When & where married: 7 July 1876 Brisbane - Manse Ann street
Name or Profession: Julia Droughtson
Age: 27
Bachelor or Spinster: Spinster
Birth place: Ballymore Westneath [looks like] Ireland
Rank or Profession:
Usual place of residence: Goondiwindi
Parents: Henry Droughton & Eliza Lowe
Father's rank or profession: Farmer
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No Rosinish it's not the original.
1st name is Jean Blair then Elizabeth - Gordon
They are 'Tarten HL weavers' Where born: outside Outside Census County (1841)
nothing beside Gordon. Where born: Stirlingshire
Address Cambusbarron.
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I'm still thinking about this interesting puzzle, but just a couple of thoughts/comments:
The anomaly regarding Gordon's immigration - one thought is that there may have been an error in his age - sometimes a number 1 with the stroke on top can be misinterpreted as a 2. The accuracy of the information written in the register would not have been checked by Gordon himself. Perhaps check the original shipping record if you haven't already done so.
Regarding his occupation, it may be that everyone else on the voyage was a labourer and Gordon was just dittoed. Once again checking the original might clarify.
Or perhaps the colony were after labourers at this time as Gordon said he was a labourer in order to emigrate, or he may have actually done labouring work for a time. If he lied about his age he may have done so to fit in with age restrictions or preferences.
Have you traced his "wife" and surviving daughter in Scotland? Did the wife remarry and if so what does she say about her condition? Did the daughter name Gordon as her father on her own marriage certificate?
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Thanks for your input and ideas Ruskie.
I have the original passengers' list and it's as clear as a bell age 19.
It was the only voyage that ship ever made to Qld - 7 Aug 1861.
Unfortunately it doesn't say if the passengers were assisted or not.
Most were but he had a job as a clerk before his daughter's Elizabeth birth 3 April 1863.
If he were paid for by a Solicitor's firm in Ipswich where he got his 1st? job
why say your a farm labourer? most people would boast about being a clerk.
Yes it may not have been a lie as on the MC he said his father was a Farmer.
He would certainly have laboured on his dad's farm. That's a fall back position
if caught out or a disguise to muddy the waters maybe.
Yes I looked long and hard for his wife and found her on that 1861 census with daughter
Georgina where she reverted back to her maiden name of Norval and also her daughter.
I haven't yet been able to find a re-marriage and another change of surname or a death.
Seven Norval's came to Qld and none were her or daughter so she didn't follow or die here.
Georgina's MC says her father was Gordon Blair [he wasn't really] and mother was Jane Blair
MS Norval and none deceased.
Thanks for trying to assist.
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What I meant was, perhaps the colonies were advertising for single Scottish labourers between certain ages for a specific labouring project, and Gordon decided that this might be his chance to start a new life (possibly with free passage), hence not letting on that he was a Clerk, and fibbing about his age. Being a labourer might have been an advantage. :-\
I have to sign off in a minute so don't have time to check, but just wondering if there are there any other Gordon Blair immigrations around the same time in case you have connected the wrong immigration to the wrong Gordon? It's not that uncommon a name.... :-\ (not that it will help solve your puzzles)
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Can you please name the witnesses for the 1876 BLAIR - DROUGHTON marriage record.
Julia BLAIR nee DROUGHTON died 1906, among the many newspaper articles.....obit....funeral...is this -
Brisbane Courier 24 Sep 1906 p7
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/19493225?
.......the chief mourners Hon. J W BLAIR, Mr Henry G BLAIR, Mr E C STANLEY, Mr C DROUGHTON, Mr W KIPPEN and other immediate relatives......
The two BLAIRs are sons of the deceased Julia, Mr STANLEY is the husband of Julia's daughter, Isabella, C(harles) DROUGHTON is the brother of Julia.......
.......who is Mr W KIPPEN?
Possibility?
QLD BDM death
1940 C642 KIPPEN William parents James KIPPEN / BLAIR Jane.
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Yes Ruskie, the Qld Gov did advertise for labourer's for the building of the 1st Railway from Ipswich to Grandchester. They sent Agents to many places in great Britain including Scotland where the Scots proved to be the best Engineers for building Railway's. They went to Germany & Ireland as well trying to get the best people.
The firm that was finally awarded the contract was Peto, Brassey & Betts from Scotland.
However the Railway didn't start until the 25 Feb 1864. Much too early for our Gordon Blair
and he was already employed as a clerk.
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The Telegraph 1 Feb 1940 p22
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/187289847?
...obit for William KIPPEN....
QLD BDM marriage
1865 / C346 KIPPEN Jane m. MARKS James
death
1897 / C2073 MARKS Jane parents BLAIR / Jane
Queensland Times, Ipswich Herald and General Advertiser 27 May 1897 p5
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/125050613?
...obit for Jane MARKS.....Mrs MARKS was a sister of Mr Gordon BLAIR late of Her Majesty's Customs........
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Interesting Wivenhoe. At the moment I don't know about Mr.Kippen?
More interesting who is that Jane Blair? Not one of Gordon's children -
that hasn't been registered! Maybe an unregistered daughter? There are
two major gays from after Isabella.
I still think he has something to hide. Someone who has education, skills and knowledge
of the law doesn't forget to register so many of his family. I'm sure it would have been illegal
not to even back then.
We just need that speck of information that will maybe tie it all together.
Thanks Wivenhoe.
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The obituary for Jane MARKS, formerly KIPPEN nee BLAIR, gives her age as 78 years (b. ~ 1819)
Jane is more likely a sister to your Gordon BLAIR.
An online tree for William KIPPEN, died 1940, Queensland, names his mother as Jane / Jean BLAIR, and her parents ie maternal grandparents of William KIPPEN, as William BLAIR and Jean DUNN.
You have Isabella Dunn BLAIR in the family of your Gordon BLAIR.
This marriage record would be useful to you, as it would ask information that Jane would give about her origins -
1865 / C346 KIPPEN Jane m. MARKS John
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I still think he has something to hide. Someone who has education, skills and knowledge
of the law doesn't forget to register so many of his family. I'm sure it would have been illegal
not to even back then.
So do I!
I have searched all over with different terms for a Divorce & nothing comes up i.e. it looks as though he may also have been a Bigamist ??? ;D ::)
So far I can't trace a death for his 1st wife either (in Scotland).
Annie
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Re information on 1860s passenger lists ....
Imagine you are in a queue of people, with your 'carry on' luggage beside you, and your 'check in' luggage being loaded onboard.
What info did you need to give to obtain your ticket and what proof did you provide to substantiate that info ? ....
Well, back to that queue of passengers .... You arrive at the table where there's the clerk/s from the shipping line. They have been writing info into their records in long-hand, they are tired, they are hoping to also find passage to Queensland on that voyage, and they are rushing .... the ship's master wants to leave shortly, as soon as .... the tides/currents are favourable. The passenger has his ticket, bought earlier that day at the ticket office. The clerk there was interested in collecting the fare, rather than in finding any reason NOT to sell a ticket to the prospective passenger.
Those shipping clerks at the table are not from the same district as Gordon, they have different accents from him, and they rush their questions and they don't listen carefully for his answer. These informant driven lists are completed by those shipping clerks. The lists (Manifests ? ) are facing those shipping clerks.
Can Gordon read shipping clerks' scribble 'upside down' (afterall, those clerks have their paperwork facing them, not facing the passengers)....
So, while it is possible that Gordon MAY have needed some 'POI', (Proof of Identity)it is also likely that any requirement was not regularly checked, or inspected etc. Such POI may well have been a baptismal certificate rather than a civil birth certificate, and his marital status may well have not ever been asked by those shipping clerks. I can assure you that he would not have needed a passport. I can also assure you that 'labourer' may well have been the general description for any male who did not have professional qualifications .... and therefore it may well be that a 'clerk' without formal qualifications would be referred to as a 'labourer'....
JM
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Registering births in Queensland in the era prior to WWI may well have been similar to registering births in NSW in that same era.
This is how the system was MEANT to operate in NSW (from March 1856)
Once a birth had been registered (by a parent or even by a child eg older sibling or midwife,) then at the end of that quarter (so beginning of April, July,October, January) the deputy registrar was meant to forward the quarterly return to the Registrar General, by Official mail which in the pre motor car times was carried by Commercial enterprises eg Cobb & Co coaches.
If that mail did actually arrive at the Registrar General's Office, in tact, it needed to be legible to be recorded on the registers held there.
If that mail was intercepted or lost for example by Bushrangers, or floodwaters, then in NSW until around WWI there was NO system to send out reminders to any deputy to say "Where's this quarter's paperwork".
If the deputy's local register became lost, then a new one was obtained from 'head office' .... but it is possible if there were few births in that locality in a year, that it could be umm.... several quarters before anyone noticed the ledger was missing.
Qld BDM regulations initially would have been exactly as NSW BDM regulations as Qld was not hived off from NSW until 1859, and NSW BDM commenced civil registrations in 1856.
Tyranny of Distance and Lack of Responsible Supervision are often attributed to the many NSW BDM civil registrations that may not have reached the Registrar Generals Office in Sydney in the mid to late 19th Century.
With the two girls births that are registered Qld BDM, who was the informant?
JM
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In the Ipswich Customs Office in September 1868 there were several promotions. Here’s three. One involved Gordon BLAIR. Mr Thomas BARRILL, locker, was promoted to landing waiter in the place of Mr Wilkins who had resigned. And Mr Gordon BLAIR, clerk and keeper of powder magazine, was promoted to be first clerk, in place of BURRILL who was promoted ( I guess this is the Thomas BARRILL mentioned earlier) . Mr G M YATES, storeman became locker and keeper of the powder magazine in place of Mr BLAIR who was promoted.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/20320729 The Queenslander, 3October 1868
I suspect any person responsible as keeper of powder magazine would have hands-on (labouring/storeman) experience.
JM
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Good points majam and I know that was likely the case as they weren't looking for terrorists back then, they [Qld] were happy to get the immigrants to work and getting a small colony up and running. There are factual stories that from the pubs around the docks in Glasgow & Greenock of drunks being taken on board late at night and shipped to Brisbane.
There are Qld Parliamentary notes that I read about the people doing this were indeed the people the Gov hired to bring immigrants. They had noticed a sudden lack of 'quality' people now coming.
Squatters on the Darling Downs were crying out for workers to supply an ever increasing population in Ipswich originally called 'Limestone' because of the deposits that were found there and Brisbane which was only an early rival to Ipswich as it looked for a time going to be the Capital but poor access along the Bremer river changed all that.
*** The informant on Elizabeth's BC was her father Gordon. I don't have Isabella's original BC just the indexed version on Ancestry.
I think this will only be solved from information BEFORE he left? What triggered his actions to up and leave by himself and his wife taking back her maiden name and they both move on. Maybe it's as simple as ... 'Jane I have a great idea! the new Qld Gov in Australia are giving free land away [Land Orders] to new settlers who work and stay there for at least 2yrs. It's a great opportunity to get ahead and start anew. [He and Jane have lost the last 3 children in a row]. She says 'I won't leave my family and friends here'. Gordon replies 'well I'm going'. Boom! It's over.
Fanciful I know but I can't get my head around all the lies or misuse of the facts. There are too many over quite a period of time. Tell one lie and you either have to have a good memory or keep telling them.
[not personal experience I assure you].
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I think it is important to remember that in Scotland, females do not and did not give up their maiden names, and were known by both their own names and their husband's surname.
JM
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Instead of looking on Ancestry's compiled indexes, have you considered checking the free to search Qld BDM indexes .... Perhaps Ancestry drew on Qld BDM's own indexes, and perhaps it drew on other sources, but I think it is sensible to strive to aim to reach as near as possible to the original indexes in the hope they are pointing to the original records.
https://www.qld.gov.au/law/births-deaths-marriages-and-divorces/family-history-research/
JM
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Are you sure that these lies or misuse of facts over an extended period of time were all perpetrated by Gordon?
From Elizabeth's 1863 Qld birth certificate, what information does he give about his own origins, and those of Elizabeth's mum, including info about his marriage to Elizabeth's mum.
JM
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That's an interesting piece of information about the maiden names majm. I didn't know that. Just Scotland?
It seems you are forming the opinion that there's no mystery? and that Gordon Blair has clean hands and it was an amicable agreement? I hope so and would like to think so but I still have a mistrusting 'chunk' of me that says no and won't go away.... yet.
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Further to Wivenhoe's reply #18 re William Kippen. There are a few articles on Trove mentioning him - he was a native of Perth, Scotland, and was involved in the newspaper industry in Ipswich, though I doubt that this is significant to your search.
Unless Gordon left a paper trail back in Scotland it is doubtful you will ever determine his reasons for leaving. Don't be too caught up in thinking because he was a Clerk in Scotland, that he was an honest or truthful man. In a couple of families I have done a bit of research on recently there are Clerks who fiddled the books - one chap ended up doing ten years hard labour for his crime.
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Using one of the options at Qld BDM online, Elizabeth Jane BLAIR died 23 July 1863
Nope, I am not forming the view that Gordon was not without blemish, but so far, I have not seen any evidence to suggest he was hiding secrets from his Scottish past. The easiest way to hide skeletons in the 19th century when migrating was simply to change your name after you landed. There was no formal process required. You did not need to prove your name to anyone, and you simply got on with life under your new name. You could write home to Scottish relatives and perhaps say "out here in Qld I am known as Gordon BLAIR" when in fact back in Scotland you had been known as Donald M'DONALD. There's so much difference in age between the passenger list and your other sightings, that it is of course entirely possible that the 19th year old lad, Gordon BLAIR has no connection to your tree. :)
Re females retaining their surnames .... in NSW during the penal era, and particularly under Governor Lachlan Macquarie, females (convicts, and those who came free) were often recorded under either name. Macquarie was a Scotsman... ;D
Scotland is not the only country (I think of Spain) , but here's a thread re Scotland - http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=454431.0
JM
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Majm on the DC as I stated earlier he is the signed informant. He says he is 31 years old and a clerk and born Scotland. - no place given there given.
He says he is married in 1863 at Ipswich Queensland [that's his BIGGEST LIE]. He and Julia were married - 7 July 1876 in Brisbane at the Manse, Ann st.
Julia Droughton - 25yrs born Ireland.
All his children were born well before he 'actually married'. Sir James Blair was unregistered c 1870.
I gave the date earlier that was extracted from his Bio and his School
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Yes JM, I have checked BDM Qld Gov. I almost live in there. :-) Great site but not as good I think as the Vic Gov site. NSW site okay.
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https://www.qld.gov.au/dsiti/qsa/search/#index-categories
http://www.archivessearch.qld.gov.au/Image/DigitalImageDisplay.aspx?ImageId=38806#page=1&view=Fit&ispdf=true
Gordon BLAIR on the MANGERTON, ex Plymouth 15 April 1861, arrived Brisbane 7th August 1861. He was recorded as aged 19, and a farm labourer from Sterlingshire.
So his formal marriage commenced in Qld in 1876, but his informal marriage commenced in 1863. English Acts did not apply outside of England and Wales unless the law actually stated that they extended to ...... (and named the colony/British territory). So for example English Marriage Acts did not apply in NSW (or any colony hived off from NSW) unless the colonial government's legislation said so or England's Parliament specified which colony it applied in. (This dates from about 19 July 1823 and a ruling by Sir Francis Forbes in about 1828).
Also, there's the seven year rule and also those living beyond the seas, to consider and then there's the Scottish irregular marriages which were banned by English Marriage Act of 1753 but not banned in Scotland.
JM
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Thanks Ruskie. I'll next try and find how Gordon's sister got here as she isn't listed on the Qld passengers under Jane Blair anyway. She may have come early and told her brother Gordon to get here, there are great opportunities to be had and Land. She may even assisted him.
I also saw him on some certificates as a 'writer'. Whatever that means. Did he publish? probably not much income doing that, and that as well may have lured him here or caused a problem at home. ? We may never know.
Not a good look as I stated once before that the Attorney General of Qld at the time of his unregistered birth his parents hadn't married but the father says he was 7 years ago.
I'm just looking for the truth of it whatever it may be.
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'clerk' and 'writer' can have similar meanings in 19th century - scribes ... people who write up records in registers, logbooks etc.... Typewriters come about in early 20th Century .....
JM
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JM what about his earlier marriage to Jane Norval on 7 June 1850 Glasgow? How does that sit with his much belated marriage to Julia Droughton after all his children are born?
Why would you do that and tell lies about it? Claiming he was married 7 years before? That's what I was asking help for.? Can someone find a divorce for me because so far I'm unable. She lived on after his departure. Did he commit Bigamy? If he didn't why all the lies?
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Thanks Ruskie. I'll next try and find how Gordon's sister got here as she isn't listed on the
I'm just looking for the truth of it whatever it may be.
If you had read the links posted by Wivenhoe, you would know haw she got here ;D
Sue
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Please list in chronological order each lie so that we can perhaps address each one. For example I am not at all convinced that the lad who arrived in 1861 was your lad.
Not everyone who settled in Queensland came by ship direct to Qld, and not all passenger lists survived. Those who came to Queensland before 1859 can also be found listed on passenger lists as though they arrived in NSW, for Qld was still part of NSW in those earlier years.
Not everyone who arrived in Qld is actually listed on passenger lists anyway. Some steerage passengers may well be simply numbers rather than named....
I am not yet convinced that your chap who came to Qld was previously married to anyone in Scotland.
JM
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Divorce would have been a rarity in the mid 1800s. He is more likely to have been a bigamist.
His "family" at home may never have known, but his sister must have.
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Thanks Sparrett. I intend to shortly. Another thing I'm not good at is doing 3 things at once at the moment.
I'll take anything I can so I can show this lovely lady about her Ancestry - good and bad - with proof.
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I'm afraid you maybe right Ruskie but certainly not definite. When all the avenues are exhausted and crossed off ... it still won't be certain. It just may not be the evidence anywhere. Just present the evidence and make up your own mind.
Thanks Wivehoe I just haven't got to it yet. Much appreciated.
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Thanks Sparrett. I intend to shortly. Another thing I'm not good at is doing 3 things at once at the moment.
I'll take anything I can so I can show this lovely lady about her Ancestry - good and bad - with proof.
Ok.
I just mean that real information is coming your way and you need to take it into account in your thinking.
At present, I am having difficulty linking the immigrant to your lost Gordon BLAIR.
For one thing, his sister's father was William. This information was furnished at her death and
ADDING Information re the name William as father of Jane MARKS has come from an online tree. Struck through.
Unverified on BMD
We are all working towards a nice solid picture ;D
Sue
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Bigamy etc ...
Certainly convicts were allowed to remarry if they'd been 'out of/away from the marriage' for more than seven years - but I don't think this was considered bigamy - the more so as they had very little hope of ever returning to England.
Their partners in England could also remarry if their convicted OH's had been gone for more than 7 years . . . so, not just occurring in Australia. The marriage was considered void is my understanding, so not bigamy.
No doubt someone will correct me if I am wrong.
Wiggy
You are correct Wiggy
The law "An Act to restrain all Persons from Marriage until their former Wives and former Husbands be dead" was introduced in 1604.
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~framland/acts/1604.htm
Section 2 of this 'bigamy' act allowed partners to remarry if the other was overseas for at least 7 years or if they had no knowledge of their partner being alive for 7 years.
The wording of section II puts it like this :
"II. Provided always, That this Act, nor any Thing therein contained, shall extend to any Person or Persons whose Husband or Wife shall be continually remaining beyond the Seas by the Space of seven Years together, or whose Husband or Wife shall absent him or herself the one from the other by the Space of seven Years together, in any Parts within his Majesty’s Dominions, the one of them not knowing the other to be living within that Time. "
Cheers
Guy
Divorce in Colonial Australia
http://pandora.nla.gov.au/pan/34360/20050715-0000/www.aifs.gov.au/institute/seminars/finlay.html Qld divorce laws date from 1864 but like many other colonies, if the impediment to marriage was with the female, well ... read on ! ....
ADD
Scottish marriages .... https://academic.oup.com/jsh/article-lookup/doi/10.1093/jsh/sht041
JM
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Re Gordon’s wife Julia DROUGHTON.
Looking at Qld BDM marriages in the 1860s and 1870s there’s perhaps some possibles for siblings for Julia. I wonder if she may have been a witness at those marriages…. Anyways, here’s a newspaper cutting for one of those marriages, giving info about origins for possible DROUGHTON family/ies
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/130840661 25 June 1870 Qld Times, Ipswich Herald
23rd June, St Pauls, Ipswich…. Elizabeth, third daughter of the late Henry DROUGHTON of County Westmeath, Ireland…
I wonder if Julia was sister to Elizabeth …. Afterall, the Qld BDM online index for Julia’s 1906 death has her father recorded as Henry DROUGHTON and mother as Elizabeth LOME…. I also wonder if among the DROUGHTON family there’s a family history buff with information about Julia DROUGHTON and her Gordon BLAIR.
I may have missed it, but I cannot recall noting the denomination of the clergy for the 1876 marriage for Gordon and Julia. My scribbled notes have it as Manse, Ann St. I guess this would be Presbyterian, and Ann St, Brisbane.
I wonder if the witnesses were related to Gordon or Julia.
JM
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Something which may have already been mentioned (apologies if it has and I missed it), is that you say Gordon's birth was not registered in Scotland, however Statutory registration did not commence in Scotland until 1855. Prior to that you only have Parish Registers.
Have you checked Scotland's People for baptisms in the years you believe this Gordon was born? You might need to expand the search years and places to allow for a late baptism and this possibly occurring elsewhere.
There may be some data on SP regarding the availabilty of parish registers in these areas and time frames, and if there are any gaps.
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According to the Findmypast 1861 transcription Jane Norval/ Blair was calling herself a widow.
Isobel
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I would suggest trying to forget about Stirlingshire Gordon for a bit, and go back to the information your known Gordon himself supplied on his marriage certificate to Julia. You have to presume this information is correct (and you have to start somewhere).
Have you tried to find John, Jane, Gordon and any other children on the Scottish censuses? If you are using a pay site like Ancestry you only have (often poor) transcriptions to rely on. If you can't easily find them, you might need to be more creative in your searches in the hope of catching them, and use some credits on SP to confirm census findings.
Blair is a relatively common Scottish surname, and Gordon is a relatively common forename .... :-\
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Continuing from reply #16, and using the obituary for Jane MARKS, formerly KIPPEN, nee BLAIR....
.....arrived in Queensland on the William Miles about 1855...had only two children....James who died in infancy and Mr William KIPPEN.....
"William Miles" arr. 16 Jan 1855
KIPPEN James 28 cartwright Perthshire read and write Presb.
KIPPEN Jane 23 Stirlingshire read and write Presb.
KIPPEN Isabella 6 Stirlingshire read and write Presb.
KIPPEN William 2 Stirlingshire Presb.
also, of interest -
BLAIR Jane 33 housemaid Stirlingshire read and write Presb.
Queensland Times, Ipswich and Herald and General Advertiser 14 Nov 1882
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/123275342?
FUNERAL.—The Friends of the late Mrs. Jane BLAIR are respectfully invited to attend her
Funeral, to move from the Residence of Mr. Wm. KIPPEN. Syntax-street
(died 13th, 82 years)
An online tree includes the death certificate -
Jane BLAIR............. died 13 November 1882, at Ipswich, 82 years.
parents John BLAIR, ......keeper, and Jane DUNN
informant............... William KIPPEN, grandson, Ipswich
buried 14th November.............. Ipswich Cemetery
born........... Glasgow, Lanarkshire, Scotland. about 36 years in Queensland (26?...unclear)
married.......... Lanarkshire Scotland, age 18, William BLAIR
children.....living James 54yrs, Elizabeth 52yrs, Gordon 50 years.
If Jane BLAIR arrived in Australia 1846, or 1856, it was before the arrival of her son Gordon, if he arrived 1861?
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Some things confuddle me
How do we join the dots from Gordon BLAIR in Qld back to Gordon BLAIR a solicitor’s clerk and husband of Jane, and father to Georgina…. ….
Anyways, here’s the Index sightings that I have found…. To me, the Qld dots are not yet stretching back to Georgina Lorimer BLAIR…
Georgina Lorimer BLAIR born Nov 1850, parents as Gordon BLAIR and Jane NORVAL
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X1S9-K9Z
1851 Scotland Census (30/31 March 1851)
Gordon BLAIR 23, Jane BLAIR 21, Georgina BLAIR 4 months ….
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:VYB7-THJ
10 Aug 1868 MARRIAGE for Georgina Lorimer BLAIR – in Scotland –
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XYWQ-4B7
To me, indexes point to original documents and indexes don't usually have a full transcription of the original document, and can be misleading - spelling errors, total mis-reads, failing to record relationships etc...
JM
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Here's a picture of William KIPPEN ;D ;D
http://picture.ipswich.qld.gov.au/awweb/main.jsp?flag=browse&smd=1&awdid=1
Sue
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QLD BDM marriage
26 December 1865 Presby Church Ipswich
KIPPEN Jane...........widow, 28 years, b. Scotland, res. Ipswich
parents William BLAIR, hotelkeeper and Jane BLAIR.
MARKS John........bachelor, 28 years, b. Scotland, res Ipswich.
parents John MARKS, carpenter and Agnes FERGUSON
witnesses Gordon BLAIR and Elizabeth DROUGHTON.
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According to the Findmypast 1861 transcription Jane Norval/ Blair was calling herself a widow.
Isobel
Thanks for your input Isobelw. Was that from an 1861 Census? I hope not because I found her as a boarder age 27 yrs with her daughter Georgina 9yrs at 42 Maxwell st Glasgow and she's a stay-maker. [had to look that up] The information may be correct however as Gordon was her 2nd Marriage. Georgina was not his child. She was the daughter of Henry Schwabe 1823-1850? and he died before she was born in 15 Nov 1850.
Can you supply more detail please of where it came from? If it's her she has totally reverted back to her maiden past and ignores her whole marriage & time with Gordon. Must have been a terrible time together as after Georgina the next 3 children died rather quickly. May have caused the split.
Gordon's 1st child with Julia Droughton died within a month from memory.
Thanks.
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I would suggest trying to forget about Stirlingshire Gordon for a bit, and go back to the information your known Gordon himself supplied on his marriage certificate to Julia. You have to presume this information is correct (and you have to start somewhere).
Have you tried to find John, Jane, Gordon and any other children on the Scottish censuses? If you are using a pay site like Ancestry you only have (often poor) transcriptions to rely on. If you can't easily find them, you might need to be more creative in your searches in the hope of catching them, and use some credits on SP to confirm census findings.
Blair is a relatively common Scottish surname, and Gordon is a relatively common forename .... :-\
Yes I have tried to find John & Jane on ScotlandsPeople and have several contenders and 2 good ones but can't yet link them to Gordon.
Thanks.
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Here's a picture of William KIPPEN ;D ;D
http://picture.ipswich.qld.gov.au/awweb/main.jsp?flag=browse&smd=1&awdid=1
Sue
Hi Sue. That link expired on me I didn't get to read it in time as I was out yesterday afternoon.
'Ipswich Gov expired' and asked for a username etc.?? Is that picture in their Pioneer of Ipswich booklet?. I forget it's real name.
I love seeing the people when you finally track them down as you know things about their life.
I have several pictures of Sir James William Blair in his Judge's regalia that I have passed on to this
lady but as yet none of Gordon or Julia. Would love some of them for her. They are her GG-Grandparents.
Thanks.
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Hi OZScot,
Yes it was the 1861 census when she is living as a boarder in the household of Esther Jamieson. The transcript on Findmypast says she was a widow. The original entry on Scotlandspeople ( pay to view) would confirm this.
I have also found a newspaper entry in the Glasgow Sentinel of 31/1/1863 which reports that the mistress of an establishment of questionable fame in Maxwell Street was fined £5.00 with the alternative of 30 days imprisonment for an assault on Jane Norval or Blair at the premises in Maxwell Street. This suggests to me that Jane may have been working as a prostitute.
Isobel
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QLD BDM marriage
26 December 1865 Presby Church Ipswich
KIPPEN Jane...........widow, 28 years, b. Scotland, res. Ipswich
parents William BLAIR, hotelkeeper and Jane BLAIR.
MARKS John........bachelor, 28 years, b. Scotland, res Ipswich.
parents John MARKS, carpenter and Agnes FERGUSON
witnesses Gordon BLAIR and Elizabeth DROUGHTON.
Very interesting Wivenhoe. Gordon says his parents were John & Jane Blair and I'll have to track down were he says his father was a 'Hotelkeeper' as well. Also I have mused at where his son Sir James William Blair got 'William' from? The burial record that was sent to me and posted here says John & Jane parents but they were told that probably by the undertaker/informant. Surely not more misinformation.
I often wondered how a farmer's son ended up a clerk in a law firm. Obviously very smart. I would have thought more opportunity being a Hotel keeper's son. Learning from his Dad's business structure, staff, payments, budgets etc etc.
Thanks Wivenhoe.
More food for thought ....
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I'm a bit confused about Georgina - Scotland Select Births have her as Georgina Lorimer Blair born z15/11/1850 to Jane Norval and Gordon Blair. What makes you think she is the daughter of Schawbe? Georgina married Paterson Janver Bamber in Anderston in 1868. The other child you mention - Jane Drummond Schawbe- married Charles Taylor in 1874. Where was she living between her birth and marriage?
Isobel
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Hi OZScot,
Yes it was the 1861 census when she is living as a boarder in the household of Esther Jamieson. The transcript on Findmypast says she was a widow. The original entry on Scotlandspeople ( pay to view) would confirm this.
I have also found a newspaper entry in the Glasgow Sentinel of 31/1/1863 which reports that the mistress of an establishment of questionable fame in Maxwell Street was fined £5.00 with the alternative of 30 days imprisonment for an assault on Jane Norval or Blair at the premises in Maxwell Street. This suggests to me that Jane may have been working as a prostitute.
Isobel
WoW Isobelw. That's huge!! I'm in total disbelief. If it's correct which looks certain, her wayward morals may have been the cause of the split, not as a prostitute but behind Gordon's back and caught out. I have a fertile imagination and that could be totally wrong. It looks as if she may also have been left virtually penniless and resorted to this activity to survive. I wouldn't think a woman would take that type of work unless they had to.
The assault says to me that Jane was over it and wanted to move on and the Madame was having none of it 'you still owe me etc.' It was 2yrs after Gordon left and the 'corset' business wasn't going too well or that was a sham for what she was really doing. 'Jamieson' name of the head intrigue's me as I have seen Jane's name as Jane Jamieson Norval same age. May have been related to the Madame somehow.
Great Find!!! That putting a totally different light on thing's. I'm going for more coffee.!!!
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Hello :D
I've been finding this thread fascinating reading folks !
Found this birth https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FMSV-H26
Jean Jamieson Norval 30 Nov 1829 , Glasgow Parents John Norval and Jean Baird.
Could this be your lady?
Looby :)
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I'm a bit confused about Georgina - Scotland Select Births have her as Georgina Lorimer Blair born z15/11/1850 to Jane Norval and Gordon Blair. What makes you think she is the daughter of Schawbe? Georgina married Paterson Janver Bamber in Anderston in 1868. The other child you mention - Jane Drummond Schawbe- married Charles Taylor in 1874. Where was she living between her birth and marriage?
Isobel
Isobel, Everything you have stated above is correct!.Well done.
I have very bad copies of both marriages and there are comments about Gordon on Jane Drummond Blair's MC hard to read. Even under high magnification it's a bit guessy.
I have to step out for a few hours now and get back to you.
Thanks.
Still can't get over that paper article find.!
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If you are having trouble reading anything on any certificates, especially any additional comments which may be vital to your research, please scan and post the relevant bits here to get other's opinions. It might give you some answers. :)
If any of the offending certificates were purchased via Scotland's People - simply request clearer copies. SP are always very obliging.
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Hi all,
May I please mention that we have not yet joined the dots from the Gordon BLAIR in Queensland Australia with the Gordon BLAIR who married Jane NORVAL in Scotland. May I suggest that one possible way to confirm those two Gordon BLAIR chaps are one and the same is to compare their signatures.
Gordon was the informant on the 1863 Qld birth registration for Elizabeth. A snip of that signature could be compared with the 1850 Glasgow marriage.
1850 : https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XTBS-YMB
1863 : Qld BDM online index ref C540, (deduces to 3 April 1863, remembering sadly this wee baby died July 1863) Elizabeth Jane, daughter of Gordon BLAIR and Julia DROUGHTON. (While the index has BLAIR as Elizabeth's surname, it is likely that the actual registration does not give the baby a surname at all. So, similarly to GRO English/Welsh births, not until the late 1960s were babies given surnames on birth registrations in NSW, and perhaps Qld.)
JM
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Signature comparison is an excellent idea JM. :)
Added: Just a thought - the Scottish 1850 marriage will be a parish record and won't have a signature. :(
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Well, err .... so possibly no signature for the 1850 marriage .... so err ... as yet there's actually no confirmation opportunities linking those Scottish index sightings of Gordon BLAIR with Jane NORVAL and the Queensland Australia Gordon BLAIR with Julia DROUGHTON .....
Considering that Qld Marriage Act 1865 tightened up the recording/registration process, perhaps the reason for the 1876 Qld marriage was simply that no record could be found of the 1863 Qld one.
It is entirely possible that the Gordon BLAIR in Qld has not told fibs, and the person recording the information may have mis-heard the details he provided ORALLY, (clergy can make mistakes on parish registers, even today, and transcribers can mis-read the handwriting and add to those mistakes).
NSW state archives online index includes their holdings of passenger lists into Moreton Bay. Gordon BLAIR is not there, but there is a Jane BLAIR, 33 years per William Miles in 1855, to Moreton Bay. Again, I mention that NOT ALL passenger lists to any port in any of the colonies in the Antipodes survived, NOT ALL passenger lists included names of those travelling steerage, and NOT ALL passenger lists have been transcribed and indexed and NOT ALL birth registrations arrived at or were accurately processed by the Registrar General's Office.
JM
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Some passenger information. DROUGHTON
Earliest I see is
Clementina DROUGHTON.
Ship Golden Era. 1855.
For Moreton Bay
Housemaid
Born Westmeath
Age 25. C of E. Can read and write.
Parents Henry and Eliza . Mother dead. Father lives at ?Newtown?
Relations in the Colony- Cousin Eliza DUNN living at Darling Downs. Five pounds reg. by Eliza DUNN.
Julia DROUGHTON
Ship, British Empire. 4th Feb 1859.
For Moreton Bay.
Servant
Born Westmeath.
Aged 24. C of E. Can read and write.
[She is classified with unmarried women not being part of a family]
DROUGHTON, Charles.
Ship, British Empire. 4th Feb 1859.
For Moreton Bay.
Labourer
Born Westmeath.
Aged 24. C of E. Can read and write..
Sue
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Has anyone searched for a death in Scotland for a Gordon Blair, in case the one who married Jane Norval in Scotland is not the one who ended up in Australia?
It rings a few alarm bells with different parents named for Gordon. It might be an idea to make a list of the names and dates of the parents and the record in which they were named - setting it out on paper may help clarify?
Eg:
18XX marriage brisbane parents X and X
18XX death brisbane parents X and X.
:-\
Similar with differing dates and places of birth .....
Even if Gordon fibbed about some things, there is little point in fibbing about parents who are either still back in Scotland, or long dead .... unless he or informants did not know. :-\
Added: I just checked SP but can't see a likely looking death for Gordon Blair .... :(
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....
Julia DROUGHTON
Ship, British Empire. 4th Feb 1859.
For Moreton Bay.
Servant
Born Westmeath.
Aged 24. C of E. Can read and write.
[She is classified with unmarried women not being part of a family]
And on same voyage, a huge co-incidence, as there's a BLAIR family, Robert and Ann, and their children.... :)
https://www.records.nsw.gov.au/archives/collections-and-research/guides-and-indexes/immigration-and-shipping/indexes
ADD images of that passenger list :
http://indexes.records.nsw.gov.au/ebook/list.aspx?series=NRS5316&item=4_4795&ship=British%20Empire
JM
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From the British Newspaper Archives -
....and Ann Stewart , for fighting with each other in the house of Jane Norval or Blair , John Street(city), were fined each, or go 30 days prison. The mistress of the establishment , Jane Norval or Blair, forfeited pledge for non-appearance to answer a charge.....
Monday 22 August 1864, Glasgow Morning Journal, Lanarkshire, Scotland
ev
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It might be an idea to make a list of the names and dates of the parents and the record in which they were named - setting it out on paper may help clarify?
Eg:
18XX marriage brisbane parents X and X
18XX death brisbane parents X and X.
:-\
Similar with differing dates and places of birth .....
Even if Gordon fibbed about some things, there is little point in fibbing about parents who are either still back in Scotland, or long dead .... unless he or informants did not know. :-\
Ruskie,
I asked the same question for the benefit of others with all the different info. flying around & not knowing the where's/when's?
Reply #2
"Can you do a summary please of what his name was on each doc. such as marriages, kids births, travel & where he was supposedly born on docs relevant etc?"
Annie
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Annie I agree that it would be helpful to have all of this information summarised. In the original post there was mention of other sources giving even more differing years of birth ... all of those facts probably need to be revisited. :-\
-
And on same voyage, a huge co-incidence, as there's a BLAIR family, Robert and Ann, and their children.... :)
https://www.records.nsw.gov.au/archives/collections-and-research/guides-and-indexes/immigration-and-shipping/indexes
ADD images of that passenger list :
http://indexes.records.nsw.gov.au/ebook/list.aspx?series=NRS5316&item=4_4795&ship=British%20Empire
JM
Would be worth finding them in Scotland prior to the voyage!
Annie
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This may or may not be relevant later but Stirling(shire) & Perth(shire) border each other.
The Blair/Norval marriage was in Glasgow, Lanark(shire)..........
Food for thought for now.
Annie
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Between 1841 and 1901 in Scotland there are only two entries for a Gordon Blair and these are in 1841 and 1851 ( ref Scotlandspeople). In 1841 Gordon Blair age 15 is listed with Jean Blair 20 and Elizabeth Blair 19 in St Ninians, Stirlingshire. In 1851 Gordon Blair age 23 born St Ninians is living in Glasgow with wife Jane (Norval) and daughter Georgina age 9. Hard to believe these are not one and the same. Then Gordon disappears ( wife Jane says she is a widow in 1861) but a Gordon Blair, born in Stirlingshire, arrives in Queensland, Australia in 1861 ( although age is way out there is no other Gordon Blair in the Scottish records anywhere prior to that other than the one born St Ninians). This Gordon Blair very quickly finds a place in a lawyers office as a result of skills learned in the old country ( according to an obituary at the time of his death). Gordon Blair was a lawyers clerk in the 1861 Glasgow census. This is surely more than a coincidence!
In 1882 a Jane Blair died in Queensland age 82. From her death certificate ( a copy of the original appears on a tree on Ancestry) we learn that she was the wife of William Blair and daughter of John Blair and Jane Dunn and was born in Glasgow ( around 1800). She leaves three children - Jane age 54, Elizabeth, age 52 and Gordon age 50 (names which match exactly with the 1841 St Ninians census). Familysearch have an 1800 birth in Glasgow for a Jane Blair, daughter of John Blair and Jane Dunn. FS also has baptisms for Elizabeth Blair daughter of William Blair and Jane Blair in St Ninians in 1829 and Jean Blair daughter of William Blair and Jane Blair in St Ninians in 1831.
Isobel
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Hi all contributors, great work and suggestions.
Yes I was in the process of doing exactly what Rosinish & Ruskie have suggested.
Today I'll have the day to do just that as I've had other commitments the last few days and ...
I've found a few 'new' snippets of information that should or could be helpful and fact from
family members and or institution registers etc.
More today after I go through the thread and collate what's fact or 'likely' fact. Not whimsical or
a likely million to one chance.
Thanks.
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From the British Newspaper Archives -
....and Ann Stewart , for fighting with each other in the house of Jane Norval or Blair , John Street(city), were fined each, or go 30 days prison. The mistress of the establishment , Jane Norval or Blair, forfeited pledge for non-appearance to answer a charge.....
Monday 22 August 1864, Glasgow Morning Journal, Lanarkshire, Scotland
ev
Well that's rather compelling!!, adding to the earlier similar piece. How many Jane Norval - Blair couples could there be at the same time period. Very few if any and in the same area. Well done.
Another little piece of the puzzle as to what has maybe caused all this family calamity or it's certainly dreadful aftermath. No winners in all this heartache ... maybe Gordon but he had lost also 3 of his children and another likely never to be seen again.
Thanks.
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Thanks Isobel,
Your simple summary makes a lot more sense & easier to read/relate to who's who/where etc.
I hadn't picked up on a Blair marrying a Blair but seeing it like this makes sense now.
My concern was about the age differing by 21 yrs which is why I pointed out Stirling/Perth/Glasgow for comparing details as Dumfries & 'to name some' had also been pointed out, leaving a bit of questioning.
I wondered why all the 'untruths' yet there seems absolutely no reason to me (yet) :-\ ?
Annie
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Thanks OS,
That would be great as I was finding it as though I was reading a book & having to search for the next page to continue as everything was a bit all over the place ::)
The mistress of the establishment , Jane Norval or Blair, forfeited pledge for non-appearance to answer a charge.....
It makes you wonder if Gordon found out what Jane had been up to & then doubted the paternity of his kids, couldn't cope with the shock & decided to up & off to forget the whole thing & start a fresh life?
I can now kind of understand some untruths, not wanting to be associated with his wife's life especially in the occ. he was, must have been a shock?
Very interesting thread & does read like a good book ;D
Annie
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The marriage certificate, 1876, BLAIR - DROUGHTON, can you please name the witnesses.
The age for Gordon BLAIR, list of passengers, 1861 - this list would be a transcription from another hand-written source. I do not think that this list is created by having passengers approach a recorder who is sitting at a desk, having arranged themselves into a queue in alphabetical order for family name, or for port of disembarkation etc. The age recorded for Gordon, from this particular source, is likely a transcription error, and not an incorrect age given by Gordon.
I cannot see a death record, QLD or NSW, for James KIPPEN, who arrived QLD 1855.
This KIPPEN family, at arrival 1855, includes Isabella KIPPEN, 6 years.
Where is Isabella 1855+?. Where are James KIPPEN, Jane KIPPEN and Isabella KIPPEN in census, 1851?
Jane BLAIR, died QLD 1882, with death records showing years in Queensland 26 or 36 years, informant grandson William KIPPEN, would place Jane in Queensland before arrival of Gordon, 1861, and possibly before daughter Jane KIPPEN, 1855.
I cannot see her on a passenger list.
The marriage certificate, 1876, BLAIR - DROUGHTON, can you please name the witnesses.
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...... Then Gordon disappears ( wife Jane says she is a widow in 1861) but a Gordon Blair, born in Stirlingshire, arrives in Queensland, Australia in 1861 ( although age is way out there is no other Gordon Blair in the Scottish records anywhere prior to that other than the one born St Ninians). This Gordon Blair very quickly finds a place in a lawyers office as a result of skills learned in the old country ( according to an obituary at the time of his death). Gordon Blair was a lawyers clerk in the 1861 Glasgow census. This is surely more than a coincidence!......
There's a Gordon BLAIR in Ipswich,Qld in the 1860s who is NOT working in a lawyers office. Please see my earlier reply giving live links to newspaper cutting.
Back shortly with reply # In the Ipswich Customs Office in September 1868 there were several promotions. Here’s three. One involved Gordon BLAIR. Mr Thomas BARRILL, locker, was promoted to landing waiter in the place of Mr Wilkins who had resigned. And Mr Gordon BLAIR, clerk and keeper of powder magazine, was promoted to be first clerk, in place of BURRILL who was promoted ( I guess this is the Thomas BARRILL mentioned earlier) . Mr G M YATES, storeman became locker and keeper of the powder magazine in place of Mr BLAIR who was promoted.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/20320729 The Queenslander, 3October 1868
I suspect any person responsible as keeper of powder magazine would have hands-on (labouring/storeman) experience.
JM
Also, agree Wivenhoe the very neat passenger list available online is likely a very neat transcription of the list the clerks prepared on the departure day. Like all transcriptions, errors can creep in. But on the other hand, we need to remember that not all those born 'overseas' and found in Queensland arrived directly to Queensland, and that not all Qld arrival passenger lists survived the 1893 floods.
JM
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WoW !! Isobel !!. You've done most of the hard right there. Brilliant.
I had missed your post earlier. You have a great piece nailing the correct Gordon.
There were only 57 Blair's that are listed on the NSW 'assisted passenger lists' and 84 on the Qld lists and only ONE Gordon Blair - Qld - Mangerton 7 Aug 1861. I personally know from information supplied to me by the Qld Archives that a lot of records were lost in the 1893 flood of Brisbane. Maybe some passenger lists maybe not. I'm convinced we have our man as the time frame is near perfect as well.
In Trove the Courier Mail 13 Mar 1930 when talking about the death of Mr. John Molloy it says - One of his shipmates was Mr. Gordon Blair, father of Sir James Blair, Knt., the present Chief Justice of Qld. So the Blair on the Mangerton was the one who said he was from Stirlingshire. I'm only assuming 'born' which is usually the case.
Where it says 'Stirlingshire' the Title on the column says. 'GENERAL REMARKS, SUCH AS TRANSFER, DESERTION, DEATH, ETC, WITH DATE OF EVENT AND BRIEF PARTICULARS'.
Was it where he was born? doesn't say birth but lists later on ask for birth place. Was he saying I deserted? probably not.
More to follow.
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I hadn't picked up on a Blair marrying a Blair but seeing it like this makes sense now.
Annie
Not really ???
Informants on Death certificates are often upset and confused. Errors do happen.
Gordon BLAIR’s death Certificate 1900-
Father John BLAIR
Mother Jane DUNN
Gordon BLAIR’s Marriage Certificate 1876. Parents, John BLAIR. Jane.
Jane BLAIR ("senior") Death Index 1882
Father John BLAIR
Mother Jane DUNN
Jane BLAIR (MARKS, KIPPPEN) Marriage Certificate.1865
Father William BLAIR
Mother Jane BLAIR
Death index 1897
Father BLAIR
Mother Jane.
Possible parental names- William BLAIR and Jean DUNN (from online tree)
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Wivenhoe the witnesses listed - 'In the presence of us' - George Lowe Wilson and Charles Archibald Ogg.
Charles Ogg was also the Officiating Officer.
Seems like a registry quickie maybe.?
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Thanks OS,
That would be great as I was finding it as though I was reading a book & having to search for the next page to continue as everything was a bit all over the place ::)
The mistress of the establishment , Jane Norval or Blair, forfeited pledge for non-appearance to answer a charge.....
It makes you wonder if Gordon found out what Jane had been up to & then doubted the paternity of his kids, couldn't cope with the shock & decided to up & off to forget the whole thing & start a fresh life?
I can now kind of understand some untruths, not wanting to be associated with his wife's life especially in the occ. he was, must have been a shock?
Very interesting thread & does read like a good book ;D
Annie
I agree totally. The findings in the papers maybe after but who knows.
It doesn't look good for her and Gordon in a Law office rubbing shoulders with the well healed
mostly, wouldn't want to be associated with any sort of scandal.
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Here is the Trove article our OP refers to re John MOLLOY and Gordon BLAIR on same voyage.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/186360762 Daily Standard 13 March 1930.
Some (not yet all) dots are starting to join up. Interesting that a two year old John MOLLOY knew he came on same voyage as an adult Gordon BLAIR. :)
And another http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/118470529
JM
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Not sure if this has been mentioned, sorry if I missed it;
James Blair b 04 Apr 1826
Parents William Blair & Janet Dun
Born Bothkennar, Stirling
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XT2T-TZ4
Anyone know what happened to him?
Is it possible parents died when he was young & brought up by older sis Jane, hence sometimes being James Gordon?
Just a thought for now as there doesn't seem to be a baptism for Gordon?
Annie
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And another http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/118470529
JM
Message on that link;
"I'm sorry, but an error has prevented this page from loading correctly.
If the problem continues please contact the National Library."
Maybe a temp blip?
Annie
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Some Facts as supplied by credible Family members.
*Sir James William Blair - Birth not registered - Birth taken from Ipswich Grammar School records
likely supplied by his Mother Julia Blair and she was highly regarded in the community. 16 May 1871.
*Henry Gordon ditto above and the enrollment date of both was 6 Mar 1882 and his birth 21 Aug 1867.
* Sir James William Blair retired on ... 16 May 1940 age 69yrs to the day. No coincidence 16 May so it is extremely likely those are their birth dates even though not registered. Died 18 Nov 1944.
*** Gordon Blair no known birth registration on ScotlandsPeople. Died 23 Aug 1900 on DC. Where born - Glasgow Lanark Scotland been in Qld 40yrs. name of Father John Blair - Hotelkeeper - name of Mother Jane Dun. Was married Brisbane Stanley Qld age 24 yrs to whom Julia Droughton.
Informant: J.W. Blair son Ipswich.
*** Now a missing piece of the puzzle as supplied by the Informant. Age at death:
66yrs 11 months 4 days!!! How precise is that. It is a true fact of his birth date as known and celebrated each and every year supplied by the Chief Justice of Qld.
I tried to backdate it to find the actual date in my Excel program and it only calculates dates from 1900 onwards. I have downloaded addins that said it could but they didn't work and finally I found one... He was born on Thursday 19 Sep 1833 according to the son and Chief Justice of Qld.
Finally his actual real birth date to work from. Make any difference? probably not much but maybe.
At least we now know.
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And another http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/118470529
JM
Message on that link;
"I'm sorry, but an error has prevented this page from loading correctly.
If the problem continues please contact the National Library."
Maybe a temp blip?
Annie
Working fine for me http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/118470529
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Note another difference with the 1876 MC of Gordon & Julia - he declares he is 29 yrs old and Julia is 27 yrs old and again his parents are John Blair - farmer & Jane Blair. The parents now have to be declared a fact being declared on two of the most important documents. MC & DC.
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Re lack of evidence of registration of birth for Qld BDM ..... I have already discussed this, but please, please, remember that where a registration was not made in person at the Registrar General's HEAD Office, that there's always the possibility that if made at a local office that it was not ever forwarded to the Head Office. May I just mention that I have no real physical experience of researching births/baptisms in records in Qld, but that I have such real physical experiences of researching births/baptisms in records in NSW, including back long before centralised, computerised registration processes. May I also mention that I have several living ancestors who spent a lifetime career in NSW BDM, including at Senior Levels, involved in the development of the EDP system. That does not mean I am right or wrong, but ...... I can assure you that if Qld BDM administrative procedures of the 1860s and 1870s followed NSW admin procedures of that time, that it is not at all unusual to NOT find any number of birth registrations from any particular locality. I share (and I have previously mentioned this at RChat) : Together with a church archivist I found around 800 bdm events in their NSW parish register that were NOT listed on any of the NSW BDM indexes (not on the fische, nor the CDs, nor the online index). That's from one locality. It took years and years for NSW BDM to verify this, and then to accept and then to update their records. NSW, like QLD has many rivers that can flood. Once civil registration commenced for BDM, many of the areas (including Ipswich in Qld) had the registration process for BDMs as a part time function of the local (Petty Sessions etc) court clerks. In NSW (and perhaps Qld) there's many of those court records that were lost in floods, fire, or other natural disasters, just as there's perhaps clerks who failed to forward quarterly summaries to Head Office.
Just because today's BDM officers have not found a civil registration for a particular person does NOT mean that such a registration did NOT take place. It may well be that neither Gordon nor Julia registered the births of their sons (I think you may find they could have attended ANY deputy registrar anywhere in Qld, not just the one nearest their locality).
If Gordon's deceased estate was probated, does that file include information about his sons? If they are named as his sons, under his will, then any question as to their being his legitimate sons or otherwise is surely overcome by the proving of that will in accord with Qld laws.
JM
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So the info on the dc is likely taken from the 1876 mc.
JM
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Thoroughly enjoying reading this thread.
But playing devil's advocate here :P ;D
Jane Norval/Blair has a daughter Jane with Henry Schawber - who could well have been her employer as she is noted on her daughter's marriage cert as being a former housekeeper before marrying Gordon Blair. She then has Georgina to Gordon in 1850. Jane goes on to lose 4 sons and 1 daughter in the next 7 years - an unnamed male child in 1852, 2 James Gordons - one in 1854 and one in 1856, a Thomas James in 1857 and a Jane in 1855.
She is recorded as a widow on 1861 Census using her own name Norval - maybe trying to hold on to a façade of respectability :-\
I'm not sure about the scenario of Jane being a prostitute while she and Gordon were living together as husband and wife. I think it much more likely, sadly, that Gordon left the marriage and eventually left for Australia cutting off all ties. Therefore if Jane was indeed a prostitute by 1863 it was probably because it was her only way of supporting herself and her daughter.
Of course, we will never know what really happened, but somehow a law clerks wife leading a double life as a prostitute seems a bit unlikely to me.
Looby :)
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Hopefully of interest ....
http://www.archivessearch.qld.gov.au/Search/BasicSearch.aspx
INDEX info only
Eccs Files
Gordon BLAIR Series 4486 Item 281260
Julia BLAIR, Item 2815283
Land Agreement 23/9/1863-22/2/1864
Gordon BLAIR as Purchaser …. Series 1215, Item 1959983
JM
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Note another difference with the 1876 MC of Gordon & Julia - he declares he is 29 yrs old and Julia is 27 yrs old and again his parents are John Blair - farmer & Jane Blair. The parents now have to be declared a fact being declared on two of the most important documents. MC & DC.
I hadn't picked up on a Blair marrying a Blair but seeing it like this makes sense now.
Annie
Not really ???
Informants on Death certificates are often upset and confused. Errors do happen.
Gordon BLAIR’s death Certificate 1900-
Father John BLAIR
Mother Jane DUNN
Gordon BLAIR’s Marriage Certificate 1876. Parents, John BLAIR. Jane.
Jane BLAIR ("senior") Death Index 1882
Father John BLAIR
Mother Jane DUNN
Jane BLAIR (MARKS, KIPPPEN) Marriage Certificate.1865
Father William BLAIR
Mother Jane BLAIR
Death index 1897
Father BLAIR
Mother Jane.
Possible parental names- William BLAIR and Jean DUNN (from online tree)
Sue
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I think the birth for Jane in 1855 (if not already purchased) would be a good investment as it gives extra info. which is not on any other years certs.
I could not find a Gordon Blair in 1855 on the VR's ???
The above BC would confirm an address too.
Annie
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Of course, we will never know what really happened, but somehow a law clerks wife leading a double life as a prostitute seems a bit unlikely to me.
Looby :)
Equally Looby ;)
Who would expect a Law Clerk to abandon (if he did), his family for a life 1000's of miles away?
Jane is already declaring to be a widow which makes you wonder if she even knew where he was?
"Died 23 Aug 1900 on DC. Where born - Glasgow Lanark Scotland"
So, all the evidence (which we still don't know about) where he states he was born in several other places is not true but the place of birth given by a 3rd party has to be fact ???
Didn't he also state he was single/bachelor on his 2nd marriage?
I have missed where 2nd wife was from, was she from Scotland & if so, when did she arrive, before Gordon, on same ship or after & who with?
Annie
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Didn't he also state he was single/bachelor on his 2nd marriage?
I have missed where 2nd wife was from, was she from Scotland & if so, when did she arrive, before Gordon, on same ship or after & who with?
Annie
Re the marriage
Reply #9. Page 2
Re the arrival details of Julia DROUGHTON
Reply #64 Page 8
I find the ctrl f function on the computer keyboard a very effective way to search a thread for bits I've lost track of.
Type a keyword into the search box which appears then go through the pages of the thread.
Sue
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Thanks Sue,
Use it on docs on comp, never tried it on threads!!
"Earliest I see is
Clementina DROUGHTON.
Ship Golden Era. 1855.
For Moreton Bay
Housemaid
Born Westmeath
Age 25. C of E. Can read and write.
Parents Henry and Eliza . Mother dead. Father lives at ?Newtown?
Relations in the Colony- Cousin Eliza DUNN living at Darling Downs. Five pounds reg. by Eliza DUNN."
So there's connections/relations with the Droughtons & Dunns & this was as early as 1855.
Annie
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Yes, Clementina would appear to be
Elizabeth EDIT error Julia DROUGHTON's sister and as the reply #64 shows, a brother Charles arrived too as well as Elizabeth EDIT error Julia on a different date.
Eliza(beth) DUNNE died as Mrs VIGNOLES, having married for a second time.
Death notice for Elizabeth (formerly DUNNE) at the home of her son Charles D. DUNNE. Also mother of James DUNNE who is listed as still being at Darling Downs.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/19393390
These are the deaths of her 2 sons in the DUNNE name.
1918 C877 Charles Daniel DUNNE
Father Daniel Dunne
Mother Elizabeth DROUGHTON
1921 C1394 James DUNNE
Father Daniel DUNNE
Mother Elizabeth DROUGHTON
So perhaps there was a connection between the BLAIR/DUNN
And the DROUGHTON/DUNNE
Nothing conclusive.
Sue
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Here is the Trove article our OP refers to re John MOLLOY and Gordon BLAIR on same voyage.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/186360762 Daily Standard 13 March 1930.
Some (not yet all) dots are starting to join up. Interesting that a two year old John MOLLOY knew he came on same voyage as an adult Gordon BLAIR. :)
And another http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/118470529
JM,
Amazingly my Great Aunt was 2yro when she landed in Moreton Bay 1866 and she told the story in a letter's to the editor how her mother told her the ship's name and year of arrival. If that letter hadn't been written I would never have found them and given up.
God bless Trove & Auntie Jane [another Jane]
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Hopefully of interest ....
http://www.archivessearch.qld.gov.au/Search/BasicSearch.aspx
INDEX info only
Eccs Files
Gordon BLAIR Series 4486 Item 281260
Julia BLAIR, Item 2815283
Land Agreement 23/9/1863-22/2/1864
Gordon BLAIR as Purchaser …. Series 1215, Item 1959983
JM
This may be the land JM:
Situation of land: subdivisions 1 & 2 of portion 104, subdivision 3 of portions 103 & 104
subdivisions 4 & 5 of portions 103, and suburban portion 168 County of Stanley, parish
of Ipswich, and allotment 39 of section 51, town of Ipswich.
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This may be the land JM:
Situation of land: subdivisions 1 & 2 of portion 104, subdivision 3 of portions 103 & 104
subdivisions 4 & 5 of portions 103, and suburban portion 168 County of Stanley, parish
of Ipswich, and allotment 39 of section 51, town of Ipswich.
OZScot,
I am not related to any of this BLAIR family, so I am not sure why you are offering the details on that land to me... BUT .... umm ... May I ask if have you actually sought access to any of those various files archived by Qld State Archives? The info you have posted above - does it come from the 1907 Probate notice for Julia BLAIR, widow, at the following online link? http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/19386001 The Brisbane Courier 26 August 1907
The index info I posted re the Land file at Qld State Archives .... errr ... it dates from 1863-1864, and not from 1907. I urge you to consider seeking access to those Probate files and the Land file as I think that you may well find logical answers to many of the apparent conflicting details you currently have at hand about Gordon BLAIR and I am sure your friend will appreciate the effort of seeking out original records. If it were a NSW Probate packet, then it can contain far more than the will, and it can at times include 'proof' documents like baptismal certificates, birth certificates, marriage certificates for those named as beneficiaries and usually the death cert for the principal person of interest whose deceased estate is being proven by the court.
JM
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majm posted - There is a Gordon BLAIR in Ipswich,Qld in the 1860s who is NOT working in a lawyers office. Please see my earlier reply giving live links to newspaper cutting.
From an obituary in the Queensland Times Ipswich Herald and General Advertiser 25/8/1900 -
Gordon Blair was born in Scotland. He arrived in Australia almost 40 years ago and during nearly all of that time resided in Ipswich. He first entered the office of Hon Arthur McAllister, that gentleman at the time practising his profession as a solicitor in Ipswich. Mr Blair's somewhat extensive legal knowledge acquired in the old country served him in good stead in his fresh sphere of duty. It was in connection with her Majesty's Customs that deceased gentleman was best known. His first appointment with the government of Queensland dated from 8th May 1865.
Isobel
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GORDON BLAIR: Possible timeline of movements prior to Arrival of a Gordon Blair Moreton Bay.
Tie all this in with Isobel's great post.
1833 19 Sep birth Glasgow - Fact from DC
1841 Census - St Ninians Stirlingshire
1850 Marriage to Jane Norval - Glasgow Lanark
1850 birth at Barony Lanark
1851 Census - St Ninians Stirlingshire - Law clerk
1852 Birth unnamed child 2 days - Glasgow lanark
1853 Birth at Gorbals
1855 Birth Hutchesontown Glasgow
1856 Birth Hutchesontown Glasgow
1857 Birth at Tradeston - he's a 'writer Glasgow
1861 Census - missing wife Jane a boarder with da Georgina at 40 Maxwell St, Glasgow
1861 7 Aug - Arrival of a Gordon Blair labourer. Only Gordon Blair to arrive in either NSW or QLD
from 141 Blair arrivals from about 1848 to 1912
1863 Gordon Blair 'claims' he was married that year to Julia Droughton born Ireland although no
registration exists - Fact
1863 da Elizabeth is born and registered, he claims he's 31yrs [coincides with his birth in 1833.]
1863 Gordon Blair gets work in a law office of Hon. Arthur Macalister - Ipswich on BC of baby
Elizabeth. He never leaves Ipswich and lives there all his life.
1864 isabella Blair is born
1865 8 May, Gordon Blair is appointed as a Clerk for Her Majesty's Customs Qld. He is promoted
several times within Customs and retires there.
1867 Henry Gordon Blair is born
1870 James William Blair is born
1876 7 July He marries Julia Droughton the mother of the above children and it's registered - Fact.
1900 23 Aug Gordon Blair dies.
*** When I asked for help with finding a divorce between Gordon & Jane I was hopeful that one existed and he just didn't run out on Jane & da Georgina and that he may have committed bigamy.
As JM pointed out that the laws were very weird back then and he was within the law to do so. He certainly broke a morals law in my book. Evidence now points to the Fact!, that where Jane ended up at 40 maxwell street Glasgow was not a place any woman would choose to be, certainly with a young little girl.
Jane if she did the wrong thing by Gordon, certainly paid the price by being beaten up several times at least we know and there would have been plenty more unreported. It would have been a culture shock from family life with a promising Law Clerk and a budding Solicitor. Life certainly can and does tip upside down sometimes. One minute you're a rooster the next a feather duster.
Whatever happened really took it's toll on Gordon too and we won't ever know unless there's a family member with the story. I haven't turned full circle with Gordon but a light has shone on a reason why he told a few lies - that's a Fact!. He had to getaway. Life had become too painful. Losing 5 children in a row and the only child isn't his, Georgina's Father was Henry Schwabe but he didn't live to see her and Gordon took over the roll ... wow that's cruel and a lot of pain to carry and blame may have been placed wrongly on Jane for the deaths.? Who knows.
So far I'm back to an arc of the full circle. No one wins, least of all poor little Georgina who had nothing to do with anything that happened but she paid a heavy price too. See was married and I hope she has a stellar life --- she deserved it.
That's my opinion about it all and I respect anyone who has a different one.
Let's scratch a little more.
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Of course, we will never know what really happened, but somehow a law clerks wife leading a double life as a prostitute seems a bit unlikely to me.
Looby :)
Equally Looby ;)
Who would expect a Law Clerk to abandon (if he did), his family for a life 1000's of miles away?
Jane is already declaring to be a widow which makes you wonder if she even knew where he was?
Annie
True enough Annie - we don't know why Gordon left for Australia. And I suspect the fact that Jane is calling herself a widow on 1861 Census (which I should have made clearer earlier) is because the couple had parted company some time earlier and she probably didn't know where Gordon was.
Looby :)
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Hi Ozscot -
Thanks for the timeline which will help focus the search.
Whatever happened really took it's toll on Gordon too and we won't ever know unless there's a family member with the story. I haven't turned full circle with Gordon but a light has shone on a reason why he told a few lies - that's a Fact!. He had to getaway. Life had become too painful. Losing 5 children in a row and the only child isn't his, Georgina's Father was Henry Schwabe but he didn't live to see her and Gordon took over the roll ... wow that's cruel and a lot of pain to carry and blame may have been placed wrongly on Jane for the deaths.? Who knows.
I'm puzzled by your statement above about the paternity of Georgina Lorimer Blair :-\ How do you know that Gordon was not her father?
Little Georgina's birth is recorded in the Barony Parish Records. -
Gordon Blair, clerk, 18 Clyde Street, Calton and Jane Norval had a lawful daughter, their 1st child, born 15th November 1850, named Georgina Lorimer. James Scott and James Norval witnesses.
When Georgina marries on the 6th August 1868 (she gives her age as 16 but in fact she would've been 17) to Paterson Janverik Bamber at Anderston, Glasgow she gives her parents names as - Gordon Blair (Mercantile ? Clerk) and Jane Blair ms. Norval.
I can see nothing to indicate that she was Henry Schwabe's child. Of course, she could be anyone's daughter :-X but I haven't found anything to say she wasn't Gordon's.
The Bamber's relocate to England , Liverpool and had several children over the next couple of decades - Including a Henry but no Gordon it has to be said ;D - however this is not proof that Henry Schwabe was Georgina's father. Other surviving children were William, Georgina, Alison, Edward, Caroline, George. There also appears to have been several children born who did not survive.
Jane Drummond Schwabe/Norval is the reputed daughter of Henry Schwabe and Jane Norval and her whereabouts at the time of the 1851 Census are at the moment unknown. She is certainly not recorded as living with Gordon and Jane Blair.
As for Henry Schwabe , ship owner ?? I cannot find a Census entry or a death for him in Scotland. He could , of course, have lived in Glasgow in between Censuses and his death may have been outwith Scotland or never recorded . There are a few Schwabes in Glasgow at this time - including a Herman Schwabe a Merchant Shipper who is still very much alive and is recorded in Ayrshire by the time of the 1851 Census - although his last born child Frederick age 1 (1850) was born in Glasgow.
Makes you wonder ;D
Looby :)
-
Whatever happened really took it's toll on Gordon too and we won't ever know unless there's a family member with the story. I haven't turned full circle with Gordon but a light has shone on a reason why he told a few lies - that's a Fact!. He had to getaway. Life had become too painful. Losing 5 children in a row and the only child isn't his, Georgina's Father was Henry Schwabe but he didn't live to see her and Gordon took over the roll ... wow that's cruel and a lot of pain to carry and blame may have been placed wrongly on Jane for the deaths.? Who knows.
Poor Gordon ....... ?
What little facts are known can be painted into many scenarios ....
for example,
Stuck in a dead end job (think Bob Cratchett rather than solicitor in training) which probably didn't pay much, perhaps he saw himself as this solicitor in training and spent money he didn't really have running up debts which put the family in trouble. Instead of facing up to things he abandons his wife and child (lawful child acknowledged as his) and runs off. Meanwhile poor Jane unable to support herself and her child with debt collectors hounding her slips into prostitution and life takes a downward spiral. Meanwhile Gordon strikes it lucky and ever the con man works the system for everything he can get. His descendants aware of some of this (if not all) start gilding the lily and painting a picture of "Poor Gordon" and his struggles.
Seriously though ...
1. There appears to be a theme that considers a Solicitors Clerk to be a well respected job and that it was part of an upward career path. Again look at Dicken's character "Bob Cratchett" as an example of a clerk, equally he may have only been one of several clerks which would make the job title less glamorous "a clerk in a solicitors office". (Who hasn't found an ancestor who has glamourised their position)
2. One thread mentions that "his knowledge of the law from the old country stood him in good stead" - The Scottish Legal System and Law are quite markedly different from English Law and Systems upon which the Australian system was based.
3. Although this type of "geographical Divorce" or abandonment happened far more frequently than is perhaps realised ( I have one case in my line linking me to New Zealand) - I am not convinced that the "dots" are being connected here and while it's difficult with only part of the picture, I get the uncomfortable feeling that facts are being hammered in place to fit a history that others have already decided upon.
-
Yes, there is a great deal of speculation and imagination happening,
A young chap named Gordon Blair came to Australia and was employed as a clerk (writer of documents) in a law office.
His father was John and mother Jane (no other given) according to his marriage certificate where he gave the information himself.
His wife (Julia DROUGHTON) had relatives named DUNN, one of whom sponsored Julia's sister to Australia.
The couple, Gordon and Julia, used the name DUN as a given name for one of their children.
Gordon had a sister in the colony too. When she died the informant gave her parents' names as William and Jane BLAIR
When the mother of Gordon, and his sister Jane died, her parents were given by the informant as John BLAIR and Jane DUNN.
Show me where the dots join.
Sue
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"1855 Birth Hutchesontown Glasgow"
I feel at this time there was no reason for untruths i.e. his place of birth is likely to be exact on this cert.
Annie
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OK, so my nosiness got the better of me and I checked out a few things.
1855 birth of Jane Blair, daughter of Gordon Blair and Jane Norval - born at 116 Thistle Street, Glasgow on 15th Jan 1855. Father Gordon was age 26, a Clerk, born in Stirling. Mother Jane Blair nee Norval was age 23 born Glasgow. Married 1851 Glasgow ( already not very good with dates as they actually married 1850). In addition to new baby they had one girl living ( Georgina) and two boys deceased ( presumably the first James Gordon born in 1853 and the unnamed child in 1852). Can't make out what it says about how many children Jane had produced in total.
1850 marriage of Gordon and Jane - took place in Glasgow on 7th June 1850. Gordon described as a Clerk in Glasgow and Jane as 'of Glasgow'. They were married by Alexander Wilson, Free Church Minister
1831 baptism of Jean Blair in St Ninians - parents were William Blair and Jean Blair and place of residence was Cambusbarron. It should be remembered that in 1841 We find Jean, Elizabeth and Gordon Blair living at Cambusbarron. There is also a baptism recorded in 1829 in St Ninians for Elizabeth, daughter of William and Jean Blair. From the 1841 census ages it would appear that the baptism of both girls took place much later than their births. The 1841 census indicates that, unlike Gordon, the girls were not born in Stirlingshire. There is a possible entry in 1851 in Logierait,Perthshire for a Jane Kippen, born Logierait, age 28 described as the wife of a joiner. She has a son William age 6 months and James and Jean Kippen had a child called William baptised in St Ninians in August 1851. James Kippen gave his occupation as Wheelwright in 1855 when he emigrated.
1848 marriage of Jean Blair and James Kippen in St Ninians, Stirling. James described as of Dunblane and Jean as of St Ninians
I think Jean Blair/Kippen/Marks is the person that ties everything together.
We know that she went to Queensland with her husband James and two children ( William and Isabella) in 1855 and that her husband drowned shortly after they arrived. She went on to remarry in 1865. Both her marriage and death certificates in Queensland say her parents were William Blair and
Jean Blair and she is also clearly identified as the sister of Gordon Blair in her obituary. This would lead to the conclusion that Gordon is also the son of William and Jean.
This leads us on to the 1882 death of Jane Blair in Ipswich, Queensland. Her death certificate tells us that she was born in Glasgow around 1800 married to William Blair in Glasgow around 1818 and her parents were John Blair and Jane Dun. She has three living children Jean ( presumably Jean Kippen/Marks as Jane's death is recorded by her grandson William Kippen of Ipswich), Elizabeth and Gordon.
Gordon himself gave the information that his parents were John and Jane - as virtually nothing he has said about himself is true, perhaps we should take this with a liberal punch of salt as all the evidence suggests otherwise. Perhaps the details he gave were those of his grandparents (parents if his mother Jean)
I personally am in no doubt that the Gordon Blair in Ipswich, Queensland was the son of William Blair and Jean Blair and was born in St Ninians and that he was previously married in Scotland to Jane Norval.
Isobel
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Have done a bit more digging to see if I could find who the other sibling, Elizabeth, married. Located three births in the 1840's in St Ninians to Robert Atkin and Elizabeth Blair - Jean 1847, William 1851 and Elizabeth 1853. There is a matching Aitken family travelling out on the William Miles in Jan 1855 - Elizabeth Snr has a year of birth of 1830 in Stirlingshire.
Isobel
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"1855 Birth Hutchesontown Glasgow"
I feel at this time there was no reason for untruths i.e. his place of birth is likely to be exact on this cert.
Annie
I'll get it shortly anyway but usually they don't give the place of birth of the parents on a BC just names, where born or living at the time, job description of father, MS of the mother but sometimes added information.
-
The 1855 births did contain all this extra info. Please see the details from the certificate in my previous post.
Isobel
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I'll get it shortly anyway but usually they don't give the place of birth of the parents on a BC just names, where born or living at the time, job description of father, MS of the mother but sometimes added information.
1855 is the Golden year for Scottish Registrations - almost as if they were determined to get everything they could in that first year of Civil registration. Much of the information request was dropped after this as it was far too much work for the Registrars and much of it was deemed unnecessary.
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From Reply #84
Still wondering about this James, another sibling?, was he born James Gordon & dropped the James?
James Blair b 04 Apr 1826
Parents William Blair & Janet Dun
Born Bothkennar, Stirling
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XT2T-TZ4
Would be good to find what happened to him?
Annie
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Show me where the dots join.
Sue
Hi isobelw
Your reply #109 is very persuasive. ;D
I'm sure your thoroughness and careful setting out of the information will be greatly appreciated by Ozscott when he/she takes time to read it and to acknowledge it properly.
I can see now there is a good definite thread of relationships from the family in Scotland and the group who immigrated, and I agree with you that the KIPPEN link is the one which is a deciding factor.
I for one thank you for your record search. Primary sources of information will always be the backbone of proper family history research and you have managed in your post to keep it free of speculation and story-telling.
The dots are joined ::)
Sue
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I'll get it shortly anyway but usually they don't give the place of birth of the parents on a BC just names, where born or living at the time, job description of father, MS of the mother but sometimes added information.
1855 is the Golden year for Scottish Registrations - almost as if they were determined to get everything they could in that first year of Civil registration. Much of the information request was dropped after this as it was far too much work for the Registrars and much of it was deemed unnecessary.
Thanks for the information Falkyrn on the 1855 BC's and also you found a mistake I made about Georgina - she WAS the real 1st da of John Blair and Jane.
I had her named mixed up with the 1st da of Jane Norval, father Henry Schwabe. Jane Drummond Norval was their daughter and proof on her MC to Charles Taylor 1874 it says Henry Schwabe, ship owner, was her father and Jane Norval former housekeeper, afterwards wife of Gordon Blair, law Clerk. Also proof on her DC under the title of - 1911 BLAIR, JANE DRUMMOND it states again that her father was Henry Schwabe, ship owner, deceased, Jane Norval, housekeeper subsequently married to Gordon Blair, Law Clerk.
An odd title seeing she was married to Charles Taylor and he's on the DC as widow and present.
She died cancer of the bowel.
Thanks.
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Have done a bit more digging to see if I could find who the other sibling, Elizabeth, married. Located three births in the 1840's in St Ninians to Robert Atkin and Elizabeth Blair - Jean 1847, William 1851 and Elizabeth 1853. There is a matching Aitken family travelling out on the William Miles in Jan 1855 - Elizabeth Snr has a year of birth of 1830 in Stirlingshire.
Isobel
There is no doubt that Isobel is the 'Queen of research'!!!
Now I have to get my nearly 70 yro head around it.
Thanks Isobel.
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Although I haven't contributed to this thread I would like to congratulate Isobel for her stirling efforts and determination to unravel the facts of this mystery, and also those who have added additional valuable facts. It is a long and at times confusing thread, and there are probably some loose ends still to tidy up.
I think it is good to consider that just because someone, or their descendants, holds a position of power in the community that they may not have skeletons in the cupboard, as appears to be the case here.
Having said that, Gordon is being painted as a bit of a fibber and a wife deserter, which may be unjustified. A bit more speculation, but it may be that Gordon went ahead to Australia to settle before sending for his family - it often happened that families travelled to the colonies separately - but his wife may have decided she did not want to make the journey?
We will probably never know. Well done to all researchers.
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Falkyrn, I bought that 1855 BC of Jane Blair child and you were right, the earlier Certificates did have more information on them. 2nd page gradually unreadable.
Jane Blair - female - 15 Jan 1855 born 116 Thistle Street Glasgow father Gordon Blair clerk 26 yrs Stirling married 18850 Glasgow 1 female living 3 boys deceased: Jane Blair maiden name Norval - Glasgow 23 yrs [unreadable below that] Informant - looks like Gordon? Blair - everything else after that unreadable.
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DC under the title of - 1911 BLAIR, JANE DRUMMOND it states again that her father was Henry Schwabe, ship owner, deceased, Jane Norval, housekeeper subsequently married to Gordon Blair, Law Clerk.
An odd title seeing she was married to Charles Taylor and he's on the DC as widow and present.
All married women in Scotland are Indexed with both their maiden & married surnames as they never lose their maiden names.
However, in this case, her parents were never married & her husband may have assumed Jane should be known on death by the same surname as her mother's marital surname of Blair.
Here are both Indexes although they both contain the exact same info.
BLAIR JANE DRUMMOND
61
1911
644/15 357
Hutchesontown
TAYLOR JANE DRUMMOND
61
1911
644/15 357
Hutchesontown
Annie
-
Well said Ruskie 100%.
I started one way 95% then as Facts not speculation started to roll in I started to turn.
Nice book maybe.? My wife always says to me as I sit on the computer constantly ... 'You still digging up the dead people AGAIN?' ... as she reads nearly 2 books a day on her Kindle. :)
I'm only an amateur at this game and you never stop learning from more experienced people such as on here. I do this work for people at no cost, if I need to get a certificate when I hit a wall I buy it for them. I do as best as I can for them as if it's my own tree and if I get stuck I have contacts who gladly help and if they hit the wall as well I ask on sites like this ... well this is a 1st time here for someone else.
I'm sure my story isn't unique. I'll bet most of you do as well for others and well done. I get a kick out of revealing a long hidden past or an unseen face or story.
Just remember amateur's aren't completely hopeless, Australian amateur Astrologists a few day's found 6 new undiscovered planet's from their homes that the experts with monster telescopes couldn't. :)
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DC under the title of - 1911 BLAIR, JANE DRUMMOND it states again that her father was Henry Schwabe, ship owner, deceased, Jane Norval, housekeeper subsequently married to Gordon Blair, Law Clerk.
An odd title seeing she was married to Charles Taylor and he's on the DC as widow and present.
All married women in Scotland are Indexed with both their maiden & married surnames as they never lose their maiden names.
However, in this case, her parents were never married & her husband may have assumed Jane should be known on death by the same surname as her mother's marital surname of Blair.
Here are both Indexes although they both contain the exact same info.
BLAIR JANE DRUMMOND
61
1911
644/15 357
Hutchesontown
TAYLOR JANE DRUMMOND
61
1911
644/15 357
Hutchesontown
Annie
Thanks Annie.
Someone mentioned similar earlier & I forgot ... DUH to me.
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Show me where the dots join.
Sue
Hi isobelw
Your reply #109 is very persuasive. ;D
I'm sure your thoroughness and careful setting out of the information will be greatly appreciated by Ozscott when he/she takes time to read it and to acknowledge it properly.
I can see now there is a good definite thread of relationships from the family in Scotland and the group who immigrated, and I agree with you that the KIPPEN link is the one which is a deciding factor.
I for one thank you for your record search. Primary sources of information will always be the backbone of proper family history research and you have managed in your post to keep it free of speculation and story-telling.
The dots are joined ::)
Sue
and
Yes, dots joined, well done. :)
JM
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The Mangerton departed Plymouth 15 April 1861, ie AFTER the 1861 UK census.... Now where was Gordon on 7 April 1861 .... was he already in Devon?
:) :) :) :) :)
JM
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There is an A Gordon Blair aged 23 b Scotland enumerated in Hampshire, though this one is a Lieutenant at Gosport Barracks. :-\
One other living and born Lancashire but only a child.
He could be in Scotland lost in poor transcription and not easily found on the pay sites. :)
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From initial post...
"His name is either Gordon Blair [most used] or James Gordon Blair used often"
In my question regarding the summary, this has not been clarified as to where/when/age given when using the name at different times?
Annie
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1861 April ..... and the Scottish Gordon departs from Plymouth, :)
I Wonder, perhaps Gordon was in transit, heading to Mount Wise Barracks perhaps (Clowance) where a William BLAIR, a married chap aged 29, a Gunner in the Royal Artillery was stationed with his wife Mary Anne Blair, aged 35. William BLAIR was born Scotland….
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M7YT-CFN
Ummm..... and other posts show that Gordon's parents could be William and Jane.... .... Could Gordon have a brother named William?
Here's one (of many at that index) possibility
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XTL3-DMR
JM
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This James ties in with the birth of a James I found & the birth year is consistent with that birth?
So, is this really James or could it be James Gordon?
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:VBHC-C9D
James Blair
Census 1861
Age 35
Birthplace Stirlingshire
RD Bothkennar
County Stirlingshire
Birth Year (Estimated) 1826
Annie
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I think finding him could be a problem as he used different names, dates of birth & areas of birth ???
Annie
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From initial post;
"Gordon's birth is as used by him on documents is any of 1826, 1828, 1832, 1847 ... there are more if I dig deeper but that'll give you an idea what has been used. Also his place of birth is as much varied too. Stirling, Stirlingshire, St. Ninians, Glasgow and Dumfries to name some. His parents are listed as John & Jane Blair - farmers"
No confirmation as yet to when/where these occurrences took place ???
OP has all the info. but no good to the people researching who don't know i.e. making it harder to help tracking him down with possibilities.
Annie
Added. Hence my interest in this James born 04 Apr 1826 a year of birth given by Gordon?
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majm posted - There is a Gordon BLAIR in Ipswich,Qld in the 1860s who is NOT working in a lawyers office. Please see my earlier reply giving live links to newspaper cutting.
From an obituary in the Queensland Times Ipswich Herald and General Advertiser 25/8/1900 -
Gordon Blair was born in Scotland. He arrived in Australia almost 40 years ago and during nearly all of that time resided in Ipswich. He first entered the office of Hon Arthur McAllister, that gentleman at the time practising his profession as a solicitor in Ipswich. Mr Blair's somewhat extensive legal knowledge acquired in the old country served him in good stead in his fresh sphere of duty. It was in connection with her Majesty's Customs that deceased gentleman was best known. His first appointment with the government of Queensland dated from 8th May 1865.
Isobel
And here too http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/182857558
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The Telegraph 1 Feb 1940 p22
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/187289847?
...obit for William KIPPEN....
QLD BDM marriage
1865 / C346 KIPPEN Jane m. MARKS James
death
1897 / C2073 MARKS Jane parents BLAIR / Jane
Queensland Times, Ipswich Herald and General Advertiser 27 May 1897 p5
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/125050613?
...obit for Jane MARKS.....Mrs MARKS was a sister of Mr Gordon BLAIR late of Her Majesty's Customs........
Well found Wivenhoe :)
-
....
An online tree includes the death certificate -
Jane BLAIR............. died 13 November 1882, at Ipswich, 82 years.
parents John BLAIR, ......keeper, and Jane DUNN
informant............... William KIPPEN, grandson, Ipswich
buried 14th November.............. Ipswich Cemetery
born........... Glasgow, Lanarkshire, Scotland. about 36 years in Queensland (26?...unclear)
married.......... Lanarkshire Scotland, age 18, William BLAIR
children.....living James 54yrs, Elizabeth 52yrs, Gordon 50 years.
and
*** Gordon Blair no known birth registration on ScotlandsPeople. Died 23 Aug 1900 on DC. Where born - Glasgow Lanark Scotland been in Qld 40yrs. name of Father John Blair - Hotelkeeper - name of Mother Jane Dun. Was married Brisbane Stanley Qld age 24 yrs to whom Julia Droughton.
Informant: J.W. Blair son Ipswich.
*** Now a missing piece of the puzzle as supplied by the Informant. Age at death:
66yrs 11 months 4 days!!! How precise is that. It is a true fact of his birth date as known and celebrated each and every year supplied by the Chief Justice of Qld.
I tried to backdate it to find the actual date in my Excel program and it only calculates dates from 1900 onwards. I have downloaded addins that said it could but they didn't work and finally I found one... He was born on Thursday 19 Sep 1833 according to the son and Chief Justice of Qld.
.....
So any 'lie' here on Gordon's dc is being told not by Gordon, not by Gordon's widow, but by their son James, who decades later became the Chief Justice of Qld, and who was, at the time of Gordon's death, a barrister and considering running for election as a member of Qld's parliament.
So, there was no impediment re any lack of evidence of the registrations of the sons' births.... ;) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Blair_(Australian_judge)
JM
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I'm getting more & more confused!!
Is there a chance of info. not concluded early doors in the research of this family from e.g. the g/parents of the living person who's tree this is?
Has everything been matched up conclusively from those g/parents or even the parents back the way?
Where names & similar occupations in same towns can be mixed up especially if mother's maiden names are not given, is it possible there may have been a mix-up early on?
Maybe a double check would do no harm?
Annie
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I'm getting more & more confused!!
Is there a chance of info. not concluded early doors in the research of this family from e.g. the g/parents of the living person who's tree this is?
Has everything been matched up conclusively from those g/parents or even the parents back the way?
Where names & similar occupations in same towns can be mixed up especially if mother's names are not given, is it possible there may have been a mix-up early on?
Maybe a double check would do no harm?
Annie
Annie, the lady I'm doing it for, her mother is still alive would you believe!!! ...
and her Mother was Isabella Margaret Blair da of Henry Gordon Blair & Margaret Jones.
They called Henry 'Grandpa Harry' she recalls but they only knew him as Harry.
She's a darling of a little woman. Still perkie.
I can say that as none of her information is available anywhere I know.
Isabella's husband's side is even harder than the Blair's. He was Irish and she said she only
knew her father as Daniel but it appears to be Daniel James O'Connor sometimes O'Conner.
I and it looks as though most people find getting reliable information from Irish records difficult
because the IRA destroyed a lot of them I'm told. Probably? sounds like that could happen even if unintentional.
Thanks.
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I can see from the online QLD bdm index that she is likely to be of similar age to my living rellies too. Yes, at that grand age they are alert, full of info and can remember the telegram boy riding push bikes delivering the sad telegrams during WWI.
JM
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I had already supplied the possible birth dates for Henry Gordon Blair and James William from records of their school enrollments. The plain facts are that they aren't registered on BDM's Qld.
Information published about them came from the same sources. It still doesn't change the fact that they aren't there and could still be wrong.
J.W.Blair didn't lie as you suggest, as that date would have been told to him by Gordon and or Julia and family members many years ago and his birthday would have been celebrated on that anniversary. I knew my parents dates exactly the same way. Any lie would have been perpetrated from above down as he was the youngest. Pretty fanciful to say he did it.
Gordon has lied along the way and you and everyone knows it and it's been highlighted and accepted - except by you. Things he should have known are clearly incorrect and he supplied the information. Every mistake he made isn't all down to deaf registrars. Bad memory ok.? Married in 1863? and I've seen 1864? Not registered - fact.
If he did marry in 1863/64 he had such a good time he decided to do it all again in 1874 just for the record? maybe? but it's the only one registered between them that we have to go with. I have made errors on this post and promptly agreed and owned up to them.
I'm just an amateur trying my best to help someone and get assistance to make it right for a little old lady and her daughter find their past.
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I mentioned her mother's name who is dead !!!
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I am saying that at the online index for Qld bdm there are a number of children showing with Henry and Margaret as their parents as those births are not on the restricted access lists, being for births more than 100 years ago.
It is entirely possible that people aged over 100 years are still alive and alert in Australia. I think there's around 4000 such people.
JM
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Have discovered that the New South Wales Assisted Immigrant Passenger Lists on Ancestry have the list for the William Miles arriving Jan 1855 and names of relatives in U.K.are included. Jean Kippen (mistranscribed as Kipper) is recorded as daughter of Wm and Jane Blair. William is deceased and Jane is living in Stirlingshire( so not the Jane Blair listed as also on board). All good so far!! Then we come to Elizabeth Aitken. She is also the daughter of Wm and Jane Blair, but in her case William is living in Sydney and Jane is deceased!! However it also says Elizabeth has no relatives in Australia. Jane Blair age 33 is supposedly the daughter of a John and Jane Blair ( both deceased) and it says her neice is also on board the ship ( but no indication of who that neice might be).
Isobel
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This marriage certificate - can you please name the witnesses
BLAIR Gordon NORVAL Jane 7 June 1850
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This was before the start of civil registration in Scotland so sadly no witnesses noted.
Isobel
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My transcription for marriage between Gordon BLAIR and Julia DROUGHTON, noting that the online image is written on the one hand throughout, so likely a summary entry, all four marriages on the page are in that same hand. .
7th July 1876 Brisbane, Manse, Ann St, according to the rites of the Presbyterian Church
Gordon BLAIR,
Bachelor,
Dumfries, Dumfrieshire, Scotland,
Freeholder,
29
Stanthorpe
John BLAIR, farmer, and Jane BLAIR
Julia DROUGHTON
Spinster
Ballymore, Westmeath, Ireland
27
Goondiwindi
Henry DROUGHTON, farmer and Eliza LOWE
Witnesses George Lowe WILSON and Charles Archibald OGG.
The Reverend Charles OGG conducted the ceremony.
I also notice that perhaps the Rev’s son was one of the witnesses, and that the other witness may be related to Julia via her mother (LOWE).
Question :
Has anyone sought to obtain the original parish register (Presbyterian) to check and confirm (or otherwise) the information actually given by both Gordon and Julia about themselves and compare it with the info on the civil registration .... (ages, usual addresses, parents, and to find actual signatures to compare with for example birth cert for Elizabeth born 1863 .... )
JM
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I note from Julia's obituary notice that she was supposedly married to Gordon in St Paul's Anglican Church, Ipswich (Queensland).
Isobel
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1833 19 Sep birth Glasgow - Fact from DC
If accepted as fact this then rules out The Clerk in a Solictors office - Gordon Blair. age 23 in 1851 - giving a potential birth around 1828.
1841 Census - St Ninians Stirlingshire
Certainly there is a 15 yr old Gordon Blair in Stirlingshire in the 1841 census (the rounding down in this census makes his age anywhere between 15 & 19) giving us potential births around 1822 to 1826 but in Stirlinghire NOT Glasgow.
While the 1851 census has Gordon born in St Ninians Stirling there is no evidence to support (or disprove) the theory that he is the same person as the 1841 entry - although I'm prepared to accept it as a very strong possibility.
1850 Marriage to Jane Norval - Glasgow Lanark
1850 birth at Barony Lanark
No disputing that "a" Gordon Blair did marry Jane Norval and that they did have a child together.
Although one point that Isobel picked up in her excellent research was that Gordon and Jane were married by a minister from the Free Church. The Free church was formed from the secessionist churches and many of their records are not available online, this might explain the difficulty in finding proof of birth.
1851 Census - St Ninians Stirlingshire - Law clerk
Again this would be at odds with the claimed birth on the Death Certificate - but who hasn't come across such discrepancies.
1852 Birth unnamed child 2 days - Glasgow lanark
1853 Birth at Gorbals
1855 Birth Hutchesontown Glasgow
1856 Birth Hutchesontown Glasgow
All evidence for Gordon Blair husband of Jane Norval
1857 Birth at Tradeston - he's a 'writer Glasgow
This is the birth of Thomas Gordon Blair born to James Gordon Blair and Jane Blair (M.S Norval). James Gordon Blair states he is a Writer - in Scots terms at that time a Writer was a Solicitor. Quite a jump up from Solicitors Clerk.
There is no indication of any records of a marriage between Jane Norval and James Blair - although lack of proof does not mean it didn't happen. Although there are several Jane Norvals listed in the records around that time it would be a strange coincidence for one to marry Gordon Blair and another to marry James Gordon Blair both of whom have connections to the Legal profession.
1861 Census - missing wife Jane a boarder with da Georgina at 40 Maxwell St, Glasgow
If we accept that James Gordon & Gordon are the same person this would appear to indicate that Gordon left or abandoned the family sometime after the birth of Thomas and the 1861 census (He is the signatory on his sons Birth record so is there in October 1857). No matching death records on SP for James Gordon Blair or Gordon Blair
This then begs the question WHY ?
1861 7 Aug - Arrival of a Gordon Blair labourer. Only Gordon Blair to arrive in either NSW or QLD
from 141 Blair arrivals from about 1848 to 1912
If this is the 19 yr farm labourer old from Dumfries- Could (or would) a man in his 30's having had a sedentary job be able or want to pass himself off as almost half his real age
Accepting that the Gordon Blair who married Jane Norval is the same person who lived the rest of his life in Ipswich, Australia gives a possible time line of
1826- 1828 born St Ninians Stirling
1841 - 1850 moved to Glasgow and obtained employment as a Solicitors Clerk (or Clerk in a Solicitors office) - this would indicate a reasonably good education with at least the ability to read and write well, possibly with an understanding of Latin (many legal documents were written in Latin)
1850 marriage to Jane Norval
1850-1857 the births and subesequent deaths of the majority of their children
1857 - the appearance of JAMES Gordon Blair and the promotion to Writer
1857 - 1861 the disappearance from Scotland
1861 onwards the appearance and subesequent climb upwards in Australia.
Was Gordon a "Walter Mitty" type, or were his accomplishments real.
Did he leave seeking better times for the family or did he simply abandon them
and probably loads more questions but I doubt that answers will be found and I suspect that much of what is now deemed the family history is a very air brushed version with enough facts interspersed with the stories to make Gordon look as if he took the first step in the proverbial Rags to Riches story for the family - The good Knight is a prime suspect ;)
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Excellent summary Falkyrn.
Just been having a look at the marriage certificate for Gordon and Julia ( copy of the original on an Ancestry tree.) Not only were the ages wrong but bride and groom gave different places of residence! It is almost as if they were trying to recreate the details as they would have been if they had married in 1863 (as they declared on one of the children's birth certificate).
Isobel
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Just found an old post of my own ::) which shows that the leap from clerk to Writer was possible
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=197646.msg986114#msg986114
I have checked the Post Office Directories from 1851 to 1861 for a James or Gordon Blair, Writer but with no success. Although it is not proof it is another element of doubt to add to the various claims.
The following is the signature of "James Gordon Blair" who signs his sons birth registration as J Gordon Blair
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Have to agree with isobel, brilliant summary Falky!
Makes some things a bit clearer when all in one place.
I can't be bothered having to scroll up & down every 2 mins to find how things fit or don't fit but what I will say is, from the offset, alarm bells were ringing with so much differing bits of info. but nothing in any order to help confirm/eliminate one way or another.
It's a bit of a quandary though why the James forename suddenly appears?
Not sure if James Gordon/Gordon signed any of the other births including & post 1855 for comparison?
There's something of a mystery to this name change & when else does he use 'James'?
Annie
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EDIT.
We do have this certificate ::)
Well, the Gordon who married in Australia will have signed his marriage certificate to Julia DROUGHTON. That would be a good start for a comparison of signature.
OP needs to download it .
Easy to do immediately after payment.
Can a snip be posted
Sue
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Sue,
I reckon the signatures would be the 'decider' as isobel & JM have found different things which don't add up completely, even though at one point the 'Dots' seemed to have been connected ???
Too many differences with a lot of the info. which makes it a 'Court case' of it's own with RC'rs as the Jury ;D ??? ::)
Annie
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I am not sure the image of the form you posted Falkyrn is actually showing a signature.
Isn't the form completed by the registrar?
It all seems to be in the same hand, and I would have thought it the hand of said registrar??
Sue
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With or without the signature on the child's BC, the marriage points to the young lad from Dumfries who Falky pointed out ???
"If this is the 19 yr farm labourer old from Dumfries- Could (or would) a man in his 30's having had a sedentary job be able or want to pass himself off as almost half his real age"
My transcription for marriage between Gordon BLAIR and Julia DROUGHTON, noting that the online image is written on the one hand throughout, so likely a summary entry, all four marriages on the page are in that same hand. .
7th July 1876 Brisbane, Manse, Ann St, according to the rites of the Presbyterian Church
Gordon BLAIR,
Bachelor,
Dumfries, Dumfrieshire, Scotland,
Freeholder,
29
Stanthorpe
John BLAIR, farmer, and Jane BLAIR
Julia DROUGHTON
Spinster
Ballymore, Westmeath, Ireland
27
Goondiwindi
Henry DROUGHTON, farmer and Eliza LOWE
Witnesses George Lowe WILSON and Charles Archibald OGG.
The Reverend Charles OGG conducted the ceremony.
I also notice that perhaps the Rev’s son was one of the witnesses, and that the other witness may be related to Julia via her mother (LOWE).
Question :
Has anyone sought to obtain the original parish register (Presbyterian) to check and confirm (or otherwise) the information actually given by both Gordon and Julia about themselves and compare it with the info on the civil registration .... (ages, usual addresses, parents, and to find actual signatures to compare with for example birth cert for Elizabeth born 1863 .... )
Annie
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Is there a chance of info. not concluded early doors in the research of this family from e.g. the g/parents of the living person who's tree this is?
Has everything been matched up conclusively from those g/parents or even the parents back the way?
Where names & similar occupations in same towns can be mixed up especially if mother's maiden names are not given, is it possible there may have been a mix-up early on?
Maybe a double check would do no harm?
I did mention about kind of back tracking & basically starting afresh somewhere but it seems to have been bypassed :-\
To me that would make more sense to establish where the info. became distorted?
Annie
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I am not sure the image of the form you posted Falkyrn is actually showing a signature.
Isn't the form completed by the registrar?
It all seems to be in the same hand, and I would have thought it the hand of said registrar??
Sue
The hand does look quite similar but there are slight differences in some of the lettering which possibly indicates a genuine signature. The section does claim that it is a space for the signature.
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From the 1876 Qld marriage registration, we should remember that the page uploaded to the Ancestry online tree is a transcription of a transcription. I explain: The clergy conducted the ceremony and recorded it in his parish register. Part of his responsibilities includes forwarding the details to the civil registrar. So he did, (or he authorised someone to write them up for him) likely in long-hand and so together with details of other marriage ceremonies he had conducted in that same quarter of that year, those details arrived at the Brisbane (Civil) Registry. We can see from the online image that the civil registrar then wrote those details up in the civil registry ledger. So the information that both Gordon and Julia gave the clergy in 1876 was twice transcribed.
If Julia's information was correct, particularly if Julia was aged 24 (rather than 27, it is possible to read the clerk's writing as 24, but I am included [oops, should read 'inclined'] to read it as 27) in July 1876, then baby Elizabeth born April 1863 was possibly conceived when Julia was about ten years of age. :'(
JM edited to correct spelling mistake ( ::) ::) ::) )
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This is just chaotic :-\
I will say again.....
I think the whole thing needs reversed back to a decent time where facts were 'facts' (proven) such as the marriage of the parents or g/parents of the 'LIVING' person who can help clarify things then progress backwards from there ???
Too much info. out of sinc & confusing for all concerned to be able to conclude right from wrong on any of the given info. so far?
Start at the beginning is my motto :D
Annie
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My transcription of Qld dc for Gordon BLAIR. (B91441, 1900) certified by Ipswich District Registrar 25 Feb 1987…. (typed, no long hand writing on the copy uploaded to a commercial family history website).
When died and where:
23 August 1900, William Street IPSWICH
Name and surname, profession, trade or occupation, sex and age
Gordon BLAIR, retired civil servant, male, 66 years 11 months 4 days
Cause, duration, Medico, last seen by
Acute Bronchitis, Diarrhoea, Exhaustion, 4 days Dr Macdonald, 23 August 1900
Name and surname of father, Profession, trade or occupation, Name and maiden surname of mother
John BLAIR, hotel keeper and Jane DUN
Signature, description and residence of informant
J.W. BLAIR, son, Ipswich
Signature of Registrar, date place of registration
M McDermott, 3 September 1900, Ipswich
When and where buried
24 August 1900 Ipswich
By whom certified
J W REED
Name and religion of minister and two witnesses
Rev J Wilson Henry, C of E; W Smith, J. Brown.
Where born, how long in Australia ….
Glasgow, Lanark, Scotland, 40 years in Queensland
If deceased married – where, at what age, to whom
Brisbane, Stanley, Queensland, 24 years, Julia DROUGHTON
Issue living in order of birth ….
Isabella Dun 36 years
Henry Gordon 34 years
James William 30 years
Deceased
1 female.
May I mention that James William BLAIR gives that Gordon was aged 24 years when marrying. I wonder if perhaps he mis-heard the question the funeral director asked him…. I wonder if James had the mc in his hand at the time, and simply replied 24 years as though he was doing the sum : 1900 less 1876 …. 24 years (ago).
JM (thanks to an elderly rellie who is following this thread for that possible explanation for '24 years' on the dc).
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Jane Blair age 33 is supposedly the daughter of a John and Jane Blair ( both deceased) and it says her neice is also on board the ship ( but no indication of who that neice might be).
Isobel
Hi Isobel,
When look at the image you have mentioned for Jane BLAIR, I think the words are "Nieces on board" not "Niece is on board"
Other instances of relatives on board for other passengers uses phrase for instance- "Cousin on board" omitting the word 'is'
What do you think?
The two nieces would then possibly be
Elizabeth AITKEN (parents William and Jane)
Jane KIPPEN (Kipper) (parents William and Jane)
With Jane BLAIR's father being John and mother Jane, it looks like John and William are brothers to create the niece relationship.
Sue
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With or without the signature on the child's BC, the marriage points to the young lad from Dumfries who Falky pointed out ???
"If this is the 19 yr farm labourer old from Dumfries- Could (or would) a man in his 30's having had a sedentary job be able or want to pass himself off as almost half his real age"
Can I just point out that the 19 year old on the shipping record actually said he was from Stirlingshire, not Dumfries. We have independent corroboration from another passenger on the Mangerton that this Gordon is the same one who ended up in Ipswich and was the father of J. W Blair. So when he said he was born in Dumfries on the marriage certificate, was that a lie?
We know from Gordon's obituary that he resided in Ipswich for nearly the whole of his time in Australia. Yet in 1876,when he already had three living children with Julia Droughton, he told the registrar that he was living in Stanthorpe and Julia was living in Goondiwindi - both a long way from each other and Ipswich!
Isobel
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Jane Blair age 33 is supposedly the daughter of a John and Jane Blair ( both deceased) and it says her neice is also on board the ship ( but no indication of who that neice might be).
Isobel
Hi Isobel,
When look at the image you have mentioned for Jane BLAIR, I think the words are "Nieces on board" not "Niece is on board"
Other instances of relatives on board for other passengers uses phrase for instance- "Cousin on board" omitting the word 'is'
What do you think?
The two nieces would then possibly be
Elizabeth AITKEN (parents William and Jane)
Jane KIPPEN (Kipper) (parents William and Jane)
With Jane BLAIR's father being John and mother Jane, it looks like John and William are brothers to create the niece relationship.
Sue
I agree with your reading Sue, and that would make a lot of sense.
Isobel
-
So following on from previous post..
NOW- ;D ;D ;D------
Another option. Jane BLAIR (single woman) of the passenger list was both nee BLAIR and married BLAIR.
{the term single can cover widowed etc.}
My transcription of Qld dc for Gordon BLAIR. (B91441, 1900) certified by Ipswich District Registrar 25 Feb 1987…. (typed, no long hand writing on the copy uploaded to a commercial family history website).
Name and surname of father, Profession, trade or occupation, Name and maiden surname of mother
John BLAIR, hotel keeper and Jane DUN
From Ipswich Cemetery Register (Matching the birth finding (Reply#72 this thread).
Pioneer section.
BLAIR Jane (Daughter of John BLAIR & Jane DUN)
Date 18-Nov-1882
Aged 82
Buried with Jane MARKS
MARKS Jane (Daughter of BLAIR & Jane)
Date 25-May-1897
Aged 78
Buried with Jane BLAIR
Daughter of BLAIR and Jane
Reminder-
Government Assistance to Qld offered a big financial saving and was worth achieving if possible for immigration. Younger was obviously better than older and those who were used to domestic service and labourers were much in demand.
So if this is the Jane BLAIR who died at the home of her grandson William KIPPEN in 1882,aged 82 and whose DC lists three children-Jane, Gordon and Elizabeth she was lying about the relationship to the women on the ship
They were her daughters not nieces, but she wanted to appear much younger than her real age.
By her age at death Jane BLAIR was born about 1800 and lied about her age on the passenger list.
Sue
-
Another possibility is that her father was a brother of Gordon's mother Jane ( who died 1882) as she was also born Blair ( daughter of John Blair and Jane Dun, married to William Blair, according to her death certificate).
Isobel
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Familysearch have two births in Glasgow to parents John Blair and Jean Dunn - Jean 1800 and John 1802. Also a baptism of a Jean in 1810 in St Ninians ( who could be the one born in 1800). From the 1882 death of Jane Blair we know that she was 82 ( so born 1800) and was born in Glasgow.
Isobel
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Familysearch have two births in Glasgow to parents John Blair and Jean Dunn - Jean 1800 and John 1802. Also a baptism of a Jean in 1810 in St Ninians ( who could be the one born in 1800). From the 1882 death of Jane Blair we know that she was 82 ( so born 1800) and was born in Glasgow.
Isobel
Yes, I took into account this birth finding which you kindly found in reply #72 in my thinking.
Ah... me :P It is a hard one.
Informants do certainly write strange and incorrect information on death certificates.
I think sometimes it is to 'cover' for the fact they really do not know certain facts, so have a bit of guess.
A difficult time for relatives with losing a dear one and easy to get confused.
Sue
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Hoping this has not been covered already...Jane Drummond Norval (from her marriage certificate of 1874) reputed father Henry Schwabe - mother Jane Norval latterly married to Gordon Blair.
In the 1871 census Jane can be found with the Drummonds living at the same address as that listed on her marriage certifcate. She is showing as daughter - however if you go back to 1861 still with the same family but transcribed as Jean S?abie (sic) and is listed as a boarder age 8. I can't find her in 1851.
Jen
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Great sleuthing Jen. :)
So back in the mid 1860s, and Queensland Australia
Samuel DROUGHTON was at Goondiwindi and Charles DROUGHTON was at Drayton …… and Julia DROUGHTON provided Goondiwindi as her usual address to the Rev OGG in 1876. She also said she was 27. So, if born 1835, and aged 27 when marrying, then the year would be about 1862 or 1863 …. Agh, from our OPs info re Elizabeth’s April 1863 birth cert, Julia and Gordon married at Ipswich in 1863…. See reply # 3 for info from Elizabeth’s bc, and passenger list British Empire for Julia being aged 24 in 1859 …. (Apologies , likely this link has been given earlier in this now long thread, but hopefully it is ok to duplicate it here for ease of other RChatters checking my deduced ages/dates etc http://indexes.records.nsw.gov.au/ebook/list.aspx?Page=NRS5316/4_4795/British Empire_4 Feb 1859/4_479500205.jpg&No=6
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/75513454 pg 4 1 July 1865, Darling Downs Gaz, Advertising £20 Reward etc
Please remember that the Qld BDM’s 1876 marriage registration is a transcription of a transcription of a parish register. Until the original parish register is checked we cannot be certain of the accuracy of that transcription of a transcription of that church record. Please also remember that when the clergy interview the couple, the groom supplies info about his origins and the bride supplies info about her origins. It is not usual for the groom to provide info about both his own parents and his in-laws.
And from that 1876 registration, Gordon said he was aged 29…. And from JW Blair’s info about Gordon on Gordon’s dc, Gordon was born Sept 1833. Sept 1833 plus 29 years …. Late 1862 to mid 1863 …. And the info that Gordon gave as informant on Elizabeth’s April 1863 birth …. He and Julia married at Ipswich in 1863.
Has anyone sought to contact St Pauls at Ipswich to see where their parish registers from that era are now in safe keeping …. Perhaps the Diocese Archives? As this is a C of E register, there could be a family sheet register too. It may have details about when Gordon and/or Julia became part of that church community….. (may even include exact dates, birth/baptism dates for their four children, etc).
JM
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Jen- she is with the Drummonds (William and Janet) in 1851 as well, age 2. Down as Jane Sthornlie on Findmypast and Jane Sthonlie on Ancestry. The Drummonds are down as Dummond on Ancestry. Well done for finding them in 1861 and 1871.
Isobel
-
.....
To top this story all off is his last born and son James William Blair who's birth wasn't registered in Qld but he became quite an important figure in Queensland. Best guesstimate is 16 May 1871 at Coalfalls Ipswich Qld. He was admitted to the Qld Bar 6 Mar 1894 and quickly rose through the ranks to become Qld Solicitor General and Government leader in the Upper House. In 1893 he was elected Attorney General until April 1898 when he became Premier at age 37yrs. Unfortunately we weren't going to see the best of Sir James William Blair, yes he was Knighted. That same year he died 27 Sep 1898 after having a bout of 'measles' which was soon followed up by pneumonia and cardiac failure. He died before his father 'Gordon' Blair.
Any comments and information will be most welcome.
Regards.
Very sorry, BUT something is very amiss. As you are preparing info for a friend, please please check out the info you have posted in your reply #1 about Gordon’s son James William BLAIR…
According to Gordon’s death certificate, James William BLAIR was still alive when his father died …. J W B was the informant….
According to Qld BDM online index J W B died in 1944, umm…. decades after his dad… #B68605, 1944.
Premiers of Queensland from 1859 https://www.qld.gov.au/about/about-queensland/history/premiers/ Perhaps he was Acting Premier at some time during his Parliamentary career.... http://adb.anu.edu.au/biography/blair-sir-james-william-5266
The person who died on 27 September 1898, aged only 37, of pneumonia after contracting measles was probably Thomas BYRNES… He was Queensland’s first Solicitor General, and it was he who became premier of Qld in April 1898….
http://www.crownlaw.qld.gov.au/about/history/the-first-solicitor-general
JM
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The snip is from the Glasgow Morning Journal of 1858 - the Crawford Street address is the same one mentioned on the 1857 birth certicate of Thomas Gordon Blair.
Mind, I'm not seeing a likeness in the signatures at the births of Thomas Gordon Blair and Elizabeth Jane Blair.
Jen
-
.....
To top this story all off is his last born and son James William Blair who's birth wasn't registered in Qld but he became quite an important figure in Queensland. Best guesstimate is 16 May 1871 at Coalfalls Ipswich Qld. He was admitted to the Qld Bar 6 Mar 1894 and quickly rose through the ranks to become Qld Solicitor General and Government leader in the Upper House. In 1893 he was elected Attorney General until April 1898 when he became Premier at age 37yrs. Unfortunately we weren't going to see the best of Sir James William Blair, yes he was Knighted. That same year he died 27 Sep 1898 after having a bout of 'measles' which was soon followed up by pneumonia and cardiac failure. He died before his father 'Gordon' Blair.
Any comments and information will be most welcome.
Regards.
Very sorry, BUT something is very amiss. As you are preparing info for a friend, please please check out the info you have posted in your reply #1 about Gordon’s son James William BLAIR…
According to Gordon’s death certificate, James William BLAIR was still alive when his father died …. J W B was the informant….
According to Qld BDM online index J W B died in 1944, umm…. decades after his dad… #B68605, 1944.
Premiers of Queensland from 1859 https://www.qld.gov.au/about/about-queensland/history/premiers/ Perhaps he was Acting Premier at some time during his Parliamentary career.... http://adb.anu.edu.au/biography/blair-sir-james-william-5266
The person who died on 27 September 1898, aged only 37, of pneumonia after contracting measles was probably Thomas BYRNES… He was Queensland’s first Solicitor General, and it was he who became premier of Qld in April 1898….
http://www.crownlaw.qld.gov.au/about/history/the-first-solicitor-general
JM
That is correct JM.
I found the mistake soon after that post and I forgot to rectify it. You are correct.
I copied it from a book I downloaded and 'transcribed' it wrongly.:-)
Thanks.
-
Jane Blair signed the death cert of her son Thomas Gordon Blair in 1858 , son of James Gordon Blair, occupation Writer
So that's where part of the info. has come from regarding his name & occ.
Annie
-
For what it's worth I just received 'more' information a few minutes ago from the Ipswich Cemetery
request I did a week or so ago. Can't say they aren't helpful. 2nd lot of info. ♥
They indicate that there are 2 others with Gordon and supplied the following details.
Julia Blair: [F] age 67 location: Pres B section R. DOD 20/09/1906: DOB 22/09/1906
Comments: 68yrs in Reg.2 possibly associated with husband & daughter.
dau/HENRY DROUGHTON & ELIZABETH LOME.
Elizabeth Jane Blair: [F] age 4 months
Comments: born 3 April 1863. Dau/GORDON BLAIR & JULIA DROUGHTON.
information from LEISHA MUIR BOOK. Possibility parents are buried with her - both
both records say 're-open' (6611 & 7966)
Gordon Blair: [M] age 66yrs DOD: 23/08/1900 DOB: 24/081900 Comments: Possibly associated
with wife & daughter. SON/JOHN BLAIR & JANE.
-
.....
To top this story all off is his last born and son James William Blair who's birth wasn't registered in Qld but he became quite an important figure in Queensland. Best guesstimate is 16 May 1871 at Coalfalls Ipswich Qld. He was admitted to the Qld Bar 6 Mar 1894 and quickly rose through the ranks to become Qld Solicitor General and Government leader in the Upper House. In 1893 he was elected Attorney General until April 1898 when he became Premier at age 37yrs. Unfortunately we weren't going to see the best of Sir James William Blair, yes he was Knighted. That same year he died 27 Sep 1898 after having a bout of 'measles' which was soon followed up by pneumonia and cardiac failure. He died before his father 'Gordon' Blair.
Any comments and information will be most welcome.
Regards.
Very sorry, BUT something is very amiss. As you are preparing info for a friend, please please check out the info you have posted in your reply #1 about Gordon’s son James William BLAIR…
According to Gordon’s death certificate, James William BLAIR was still alive when his father died …. J W B was the informant….
According to Qld BDM online index J W B died in 1944, umm…. decades after his dad… #B68605, 1944.
Premiers of Queensland from 1859 https://www.qld.gov.au/about/about-queensland/history/premiers/ Perhaps he was Acting Premier at some time during his Parliamentary career.... http://adb.anu.edu.au/biography/blair-sir-james-william-5266
The person who died on 27 September 1898, aged only 37, of pneumonia after contracting measles was probably Thomas BYRNES… He was Queensland’s first Solicitor General, and it was he who became premier of Qld in April 1898….
http://www.crownlaw.qld.gov.au/about/history/the-first-solicitor-general
JM
That is correct JM.
I found the mistake soon after that post and I forgot to rectify it. You are correct.
I copied it from a book I downloaded and 'transcribed' it wrongly.:-)
Thanks.
How easy it is to tangle our facts, as we all know, and then confuse them for lies ;D.
Sue
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Jane Blair signed the death cert of her son Thomas Gordon Blair in 1858 , son of James Gordon Blair, occupation Writer
So that's where part of the info. has come from regarding his name & occ.
Annie
Annie,
Can you just expand a little on this finding for me.
??? ???
Sue
-
"Julia Blair: [F] age 67 location: Pres B section R. DOD 20/09/1906: DOB 22/09/1906"
They have those dates the wrong way round ::)
Annie
-
Jane Blair signed the death cert of her son Thomas Gordon Blair in 1858 , son of James Gordon Blair, occupation Writer
So that's where part of the info. has come from regarding his name & occ.
Annie
Annie,
Can you just expand a little on this finding for me.
??? ???
Sue
From the DC, Thomas William Blair died 5th October 1858, son of James Gordon Blair (Occ. Writer) and Jane Norval, Address 84 1/2 King Street Glasgow.
Annie
-
DOD = Date Of Death
DOB = Date Of Burial
Their record to me [sic]
It's not alway me. I do get a few things correct.
-
Jane Blair signed the death cert of her son Thomas Gordon Blair in 1858 , son of James Gordon Blair, occupation Writer
So that's where part of the info. has come from regarding his name & occ.
Annie
Annie,
Can you just expand a little on this finding for me.
??? ???
Sue
Hi Sue and Annie,
I can verify that find .
The death record of little Thomas Gordon Blair who dies on 5th October 1858 - the informant of the death is Jane Blair ( Mother).
It is therefore most likely that Jane gave the child's father's name as James Gordon Blair , occupation Writer and not Gordon himself.
The child dies at 84 1/2 King Street , Glasgow.....a different address from the birth and the newspaper cutting .
Looby :)
-
;D
Thanks Annie and Looby, now I get it ::)
Sue
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DOD = Date Of Death
DOB = Date Of Burial
Their record to me [sic]
It's not alway me. I do get a few things correct.
My apologies, I took DOB as date of birth.
Annie
-
;D
Thanks Annie and Looby, now I get it ::)
Sue
Maybe jumping to conclusions but it does make you wonder if Jane & Gordon had already parted company by the time of the newspaper clip & certainly Thomas William's death as it does seem odd for a married couple that the mother was the informant of the death rather than the father which in most cases would have been the case?
Annie
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Not a problem Annie. I had to look twice myself. :)
Then I checked it about 30+ times after you posted in case I got it wrong.
People are pretty sharp and quick off the mark around here. ;D
Great Information coming in from everyone.
Thanks.
-
;D
Thanks Annie and Looby, now I get it ::)
Sue
Maybe jumping to conclusions but it does make you wonder if Jane & Gordon had already parted company by the time of the newspaper clip & certainly Thomas William's death as it does seem odd for a married couple that the mother was the informant of the death rather than the father which in most cases would have been the case?
Annie
Funny you should say that Annie, because I wondered about that too. I would've expected the father to be the informant .
Actually, on closer reading, the death was registered on 5th Oct but the child actually died on 27th September. Cause of death -tabes mesenterica. :(
Looby
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"People are pretty sharp and quick off the mark around here"
I think it's possibly because we always tend to double check dates/ages etc. so things like that jump out but of course, I wasn't paying enough attention to realise it was a burial date probably because I don't tend to use DOB other than for births & for Burials I use exactly that, Burial, to save any confusion.
Annie
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I think it's possibly because we always tend to double check dates/ages etc. so things like that jump out but of course, I wasn't paying enough attention to realise it was a burial date probably because I don't tend to use DOB other than for births & for Burials I use exactly that, Burial, to save any confusion.
Annie
Yes I know Annie and don't apologise ... These people at cemeteries aren't dealing with Birth dates.
Only Death & Burial dates. :)
Threw me too.
Sometimes they put it all in. I think only in modern era maybe or depended on Council.?
I asked them also could I get a picture of the headstone as it usually has, as you know,
a stack of sometimes missing information. Sir James William Blair has a grand monster
one with a 'lot of information' on it. I thought at least he & children would honour their
parents with a stone. I think they could afford to do that.
I asked for one in Sydney North Shore the other day and these ancestor's were very wealthy.
No Headstone !!!???
Thanks.
-
Probably not very helpful and possibly an impossible task, but I have seen headstones (especially in Scotland) which commemorate other family members even if they died and were buried elsewhere or even abroad. Commemorations often made at a later date to the person buried in the plot.
I wonder if it is worth looking to see if any of these children have headstones which mention their father, especially if he made something of himself in his new country ..... :-\
-
What information is on Isabella Dun BLAIR's 1864 Qld Birth Certificate? This lass is on the direct line for OzScot's friend.
Qld BDM reference #C659 The historic image is available to download, via plastic card Au$20.70 Info on Qld BDM is almost as detailed as Scottish ones. :) :)
https://www.bdm.qld.gov.au/IndexSearch/queryEntry.m?type=births
Please remember that although the Qld index has the registration under BLAIR, the actual registration in 1860s did not include a surname for any baby. Conventions at that time in at least Qld and NSW were that the baby take on mum's THEN surname, which if a married woman would match that of her husband. So the online index entry is under BLAIR, suggesting to me that Julia was at least known as Mrs Blair at that time. That convention re surnames did not change until well into the 20th century, in NSW it changed in about 1969.
May I gently ask again if anyone has contacted St Pauls, Ipswich to see where the parish registers for that era are currently located. Just because a civil birth registration cannot be found, does not mean a baptism record is also lost. The C of E family sheet system is often overlooked by family history buffs, but it can be full of details if it is available.
Similarly with the Presbyterians, Ann St, Brisbane .... where are those 1870s registers currently located?
Church records are not public records, so it may take some time to locate and then to seek permission for a volunteer archivist to check through them, but with the details from the Qld BDM's civil registrations at least the volunteer will have a starting date. There may be requests for donations, or perhaps even set fees for the look ups.
PS Thanks OzScot for clearing up the matter of James William Blair's fate .... I agree with Sue's comment ....
How easy it is to tangle our facts, as we all know, and then confuse them for lies ;D.
Sue
It is very easy to miss mis-steps in chronologies ....
JM
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http://www.textqueensland.com.au/item/article/e6b0a209b4b22d4a041e872e8388ffdc
This is a live link to an account in the Journal of the Royal Historical Society of Qld re James William BLAIR. It includes some positive comments about both his parents and his siblings. He married quite late in life, his wife was much younger than him. OzScot’s friend most likely would enjoy reading about her own connections too, via Isabella’s son and his place on Qld Supreme Court’s Bench.
It does mention that Gordon BLAIR was Scottish and that Julia DROUGHTON was Irish and they had married in Brisbane in 1864. It does not give any clues about the earlier life in Scotland for Gordon BLAIR. It does note the lack of recorded CIVIL birth registration for James William BLAIR.
JM
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What information is on Isabella Dun BLAIR's 1864 Qld Birth Certificate? This lass is on the direct line for OzScot's friend.
Yes. This would be of interest, and possibly, a very positive step in the search.
There seems to have been an impediment to an early marriage of Gordon and Julia and as far as I can see, it does not lie with Julia.
I have not spotted a previous or existing marriage for her, one does not sense parental opposition (anyhow, she was well of consenting age herself). She does not appear to have other children from prior relationships whom a new husband may not wish to take responsibility for. So nothing I can see for her.
The impediment therefore would seem to be with Gordon.
If he was the man of the NORVAL marriage, was he so pure of heart, that although this marriage was a secret, he chose to wait the 7 years or so.
Seems odd that Julia was co-operating with a charade re the marriage too whilst being in a clearly 'domestic situation".
Sue
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Jane Blair signed the death cert of her son Thomas Gordon Blair in 1858 , son of James Gordon Blair, occupation Writer
So that's where part of the info. has come from regarding his name & occ.
Annie
Annie,
I've attached a snip from the above certificate it's the father who signs J Gordon Blair...not the mother :)
Jen
-
Annie,
I've attached a snip from the above certificate it's the father who signs J Gordon Blair...not the mother :)
Jen
Jennywren,
I believe that the clip you have posted is from the 1857 Birth Registration of Thomas Gordon Blair where indeed the father has registered the birth.
However , Annie and I were referring to the 1858 Death registration of the child on 27/9/1858 :)
It is Jane Norval/Blair who registers this death and gives father's name as James Gordon Blair occupation Writer
Looby :)
-
Interesting that in the article about James William Blair it says his father Gordon came to Queensland from Glasgow. The name Gordon Blair is very uncommon - there are only a handful in the Scottish BMD records. I think it is fairly conclusive from the evidence that the Gordon in Australia was born in Stirlingshire. This article now links him to Glasgow as well. Gordon turns up in Australia in 1861 at the same time as Glasgow Gordon disappears and both have links to lawyers offices. For some reason Australia Gordon fails to marry until 1876 but then obtains a certificate bearing the details as they would have appeared if the marriage had taken place in 1863ish-( one wonders if this certificate was later 'doctored' to show an earlier marriage date thus providing the basis for the death certificate details). Brain working overtime here!
Isobel
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..... For some reason Australia Gordon fails to marry until 1876 but then obtains a certificate bearing the details as they would have appeared if the marriage had taken place in 1863ish-( one wonders if this certificate was later 'doctored' to show an earlier marriage date thus providing the basis for the death certificate details). Brain working overtime here!
Isobel
Exactly .... Many a legal document has been fudged. I continue to urge that the church records ... both the C of E at Ipswich and the Presbyterian at Ann St in Brisbane should be sought .... they ought to be extant, and they may well have same or similar info to that already found, but, to me, they are primary documents to unwinding the mystery and should have Gordon's signature on them, and perhaps contain 'margin notes' from the clergy. The wee lass born 1863 who succumbed at about three months - if baptised, there should be an entry for her to seek out too. Naming Godparents, giving usual abode, occupation of her parents .... It is perhaps showing my age, but in my opinion, family history information is not the exclusive domain of Ancestry or other online commercial websites.
JM.
-
Hopefully of interest ....
http://www.archivessearch.qld.gov.au/Search/BasicSearch.aspx
INDEX info only
Eccs Files
Gordon BLAIR Series 4486 Item 281260
Julia BLAIR, Item 2815283
Land Agreement 23/9/1863-22/2/1864
Gordon BLAIR as Purchaser …. Series 1215, Item 1959983
JM
These files would also be on my 'must have' list if this family were on my family tree. 2 x Probate and 1 x Land
JM
-
..... For some reason Australia Gordon fails to marry until 1876 but then obtains a certificate bearing the details as they would have appeared if the marriage had taken place in 1863ish-( one wonders if this certificate was later 'doctored' to show an earlier marriage date thus providing the basis for the death certificate details). Brain working overtime here!
Isobel
Exactly .... Many a legal document has been fudged. I continue to urge that the church records ... both the C of E at Ipswich and the Presbyterian at Ann St in Brisbane should be sought .... they ought to be extant, and they may well have same or similar info to that already found, but, to me, they are primary documents to unwinding the mystery and should have Gordon's signature on them, and perhaps contain 'margin notes' from the clergy. The wee lass born 1863 who succumbed at about three months - if baptised, there should be an entry for her to seek out too. Naming Godparents, giving usual abode, occupation of her parents .... It is perhaps showing my age, but in my opinion, family history information is not the exclusive domain of Ancestry or other online commercial websites.
JM.
I have just sent an email for a request of information from the Presbyterian Church Ann St., Brisbane from the original marriage document 7 July 1876. Also asking for any attached notes and copies of those signatures and if there is any evidence of an earlier marriage by both to each other and or parties. Hopefully they reply. Next I'll contact Ipswich C of E.
-
Second email seeking relevant information sent to Ipswich C of E ... now it's a waiting game.
Every Church I've ever contacted for information have been most helpful and even putting
me in touch with Local Historians etc. They were all Scottish!!!
-
:)
When I have been part of the team as a volunteer answering the enquiries about parish registers, and on the other hand, when I have been the enquirer, I too have not ever had anything but co-operation and helpfulness. My fingers are crossed that the C of E Ipswich will have a family sheet, perhaps back at least to the early 1860s.
RChat's Australia Board's Resources board has a child board for NSW. I mention this because on that NSW Resources are many live links including to some special images uploaded and free to search. These special images are from the parish registers of the C of E's Christ Church Cathedral, at Newcastle (NSW). And included there are their family sheets. Here's a direct link to the family sheets to give everyone an idea of what can be included. This link covers images from 1820s to 1890s. There's two images per double page ... so a family entry is on both left and right hand of the double page. I would expect C of E in Qld may well have offered same type of record keeping for their clergy (cheat sheets could be clerical jargon for these :D :D )
https://www.flickr.com/photos/uon/sets/72157606066769147/
(RChat's Australia board also has separate child boards for each of the eight jurisdictions that form the Federation of Australia. Main board : http://www.rootschat.com/forum/australia-resources-offers/ )
Fingers crossed
JM
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This sounds like a very good step you have taken OZscott.
If they locate something I hope they send good scans with signatures for us all to look at.
The delay in the marriage, even though the comfy home was all set up and children arriving, is significant for some reason. ??? possibly the NORVAL marriage. BUT maybe not.
Sue
-
Yes Sue can't wait.
I asked them for everything they had except what the cat had for breakfast.
Don't expect it right away though ... Hmm.. this has been too long already 50 mins ago. :)
-
You may need to wait a tad more than 50 minutes ..... Both churches would likely be busy, as they will be preparing for tomorrow's Good Friday services. You may need to wait until next week or longer. :D
JM
-
My Transcription Qld BDM 1864 Births in the District of Ipswich registered Ipswich 21 June 1864 by William Hendren, downloaded today 13 April 2017. There are FIVE registrations on the one double page image (pages 281 & 282)
527
When and where born
26th May 1864
Name and whether present or not
Isabella Dun, not present
Sex
Female
PARENTS
Father
(1) Name and surname (2) Rank or Profession of the Father (3) Age (4) Birthplace
1. Gordon Blair
2. Clerk
3. 31 years
4. Scotland
(1) When and where married
(2) Previous issue, living and deceased
1. In 1862 at Brisbane Queensland
2. 1 girl dead
Mother
(1) Name and Maiden Surname of the Mother
(2) Age and
(3) Birthplace
1. Julia Droughton
2. 27 years
3. Ireland
Signature, description and residence of the informant (JM notes : see *SNIP attached, look for the ‘d’ in Gordon, an unusual place for a capitalised ‘D’ for a clerk…. )
GorDon Blair
Father
Woodend Ipswich
No Accoucheur, No Nurse, Mrs Hogan as a witness.
…………………….
Our OP has Elizabeth’s birth cert (opening posts, see quote this reply), and info from it, and now we have Gordon’s signature available via Isabella’s birth registration and info from it too. So now we finally have the conflicting evidence provided by Gordon Blair re when and where married.
1863: 3 April Elizabeth is born and he is Gordon Blair 31yrs & Clerk. Mother Julia Droughton 25yr born Ireland. Gordon says they are married in 1863 in Ipswich Qld. ---
JM
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Just a comment regarding signatures and their likely comparison.
Experts says that people's signatures change over the years and they sign differently.
I know myself I have and I'm sure everybody's has as well.
I used to put my initials nicely separated followed by surname nice and neat.
Then I jammed them up closer together and not so neat and then I saw a friend of mine
who is was a solicitor who signed his with big bold old fashioned scrolling letters with Esq
and I thought how good that looked so I did similar [without Esq] and now it's something
only I could recognise because it looks like a spider's web.
I would still be able to recognise my old one's however.
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I posted at the same time.
This was just a comment on signatures in general before your post.
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Yes, agree, but not a lot of change should occur between say 1856ish and 1864ish.... particularly change to the letter D in middle of given name....
Very little change in my own signature from 1960s to now, still very difficult for 21st century eyes to read. Very easy for 1940s eyes though.
JM
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I am not sure that is a capital D in the middle of Gordon. I see it as a small d with the curved riser looped around to join onto the next ketter - o. I know it is different from the other ds, being lower and smaller, but that is how I see it. :)
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Hi Ruskie,
I have the advantage of the pdf enlarged to 680% but here's a new snip.
JM
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Two Blair signatures for comparison.
Perhaps OzScot may have access to a scanner and perhaps could scan Gordon's signature from Elizabeth's 1863 Qld birth registration to see any deteriorations in that short timeframe.
JM
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Um, it does look like a capital D.
Added: the small d in the top signature was the style of d I thought the second appears to be.
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In decades of transcribing 19th century documents, I have ..... errr ..... never ever seen a capital D in that position in any person's name .... never. I have seen strangely constructed letters, inversed, inverted etc, but a capital D as in say the title Don (Don Quixote etc comes to mind) within a name as Scottish as Gordon BLAIR ....
I love family history, something new to learn every day !
JM
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I am offering this ;D
The final r in the word Blair are not the same form.
The earlier signature uses a form which consists of a very small loop to the left of a squared off top and dropped ending. It is not used today. Gordon has made an imperfect use of this form.
The second signature uses a form of r still recognizable and in use today.
To me the d in Gordon is the same in both instances. The looped rise appears in both. It is unusual. I do not see either of the d 's as upper case.
The slant of the hand is diminished in the second instance.
I personally, cannot make a conclusion ???
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1864
The G stands very tall, the D is same height as B. The D's initial downstroke runs off the r and so to come back to form the D the writer carries up and across, and then back down to meet that initial downstroke before moving on for the o which then runs into the n which in turn then runs into the capital B which rushes off into the l without going completely back to the base of the B, but clearly it is a capital B. And so just as that B is capitalised, I see the D as capitalised.
I cannot say that the J Gordon Blair's signature is from same hand as Gordon Blair's signature, but I cannot say it is not, so I agree with Sue .... no conclusion, so I am hoping Gordon's signature on Elizabeth's birth cert is available.
Of course, errr .... Jane Novral may have had a male friend attend to register the 1857 birth ..... ::)
JM
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Just back.
The 1863 BC of baby Elizabeth Blair whilst it is badly blurred being a copy of a copy
and looks as it has been played around with to enlarge it, would be totally useless for a
signature comparison apart from that, as the piece I have has 3 births on it and they
are well done exactly in the same hand.
The witness was Mr/s?. Hogan & registrar appears to be Mr/s. Hendren
Age of Gordon 31yrs & Julia 25yrs.
I got the BC from a lady's tree on Ancestry and I think earlier I gave her the credit.
It will be there and easily found I suspect if anyone wants to see and if you agree or not.
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Yes, the image purchased today from Qld BDM for Isabella has five births on it, all in the same hand, that of the registrar EXCEPT for the section where the informant is required to sign, and so each informant has either signed or made their mark.
JM
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Is that now a 4th Marriage date/year we now have for Gordon Blair & Julie Droughton?
1862, 1863, 1864 & 1876. ??
If so the answer's a pineapple.
Can't wait to hear back from the churches. Has that been two days of waiting now?
In my little dog's time it is. :)
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Sorry that you can't wait to hear back from the churches, but family history matters.
JM
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If anyone finds the 1863 BC of Elizabeth's birth.
If those two signatures are from Gordon Blair then he has filled
out everyone else's birth's on the sheet and taken up a new vocation.
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There's five entries on the 1863 registration pages, with the Registrar as William Hendren.
I agree that it is all in the same hand and that the registrar (a position paid by Qld Colonial Government) has likely completed every section including the section that requires the informant's signature.
ADD
I think you will find that the Registrar's signature (on 1863 Elizabeth record) reads Wm Hendren rather than Mr or Mrs
JM
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Been meaning to send everyone this link for time and dates.
It's brilliant for finding what day of the week it was that an event happened
if you just type in any date. Very handy when doing Ancestry - for me anyway.
https://www.timeanddate.com (https://www.timeanddate.com)
and also http://www.thetimenow.com (http://www.thetimenow.com) which is better for those with sight impairments
It also has date calculation if you want to add or subtract a time period
from dates even before 1900 which excel spreadsheets don't calculate.
I'm not sponsored by them. It's just great. :)
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Thanks, appreciated. I will share that info with some of my family history friends who are not RChatters.
I must be very old fashioned ....
Umm.... when I read 66 years 11 months and 4 days and that this was in August, 23rd August .... I did some mental arithmetic .... 31 days in August less 4 equals 27. Date of death as per cert plus 27 days ... has to be September ..... 8 days left in August, so 19 days into September. So Gordon's birthday 19 September. 1900-67 = 1833.
ADD 23 (rd August) less 4 = 19 (th plus the one next month) September.
JM
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I have too much information in my head so I need a helper.
Anytime I can give my brain a rest it appreciates it.
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Here's Gordon Blair as Father registering Elizabeth’s 3 April 1863 birth on 22 April 1863 at Ipswich Qld. The registrar has recorded that Gordon and Julia were married in 1863 *(it may read 1862, image is poorly pixelated ) at Ipswich Queensland. If marrying in 1863 at Ipswich, then the marriage was obviously prior to 22 April 1863.
My ancient living rellies include retired NSW BDM senior officers ..... they have contacted me to mention that it has always (so since March 1856) been against NSW BDM regulations (so this likely applied in Qld too) for district registrars to sign in lieu of the informant. "Instant dismissal" apparently. But they all agree that the 1863 sheet of five births is all in the one hand. They also agree that by 1864 someone has 'educated' William Hendren about the regulations, for there's individual informants' signatures on that sheet of five births.
Attaching 1863 snippet to contrast with 1864 snippet posted earlier..
JM
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In the Pigots' Directory of 1825 -1826 there's a John Blair listed - Glasgow, 617 Argyle Street, Britannia Tavern. Posting on the off chance this is related in some way...
http://www.nls.uk/family-history/directories/post-office/index.cfm?place=Scotland
The snip from the Caledonian Mercury of the 16th of Feb 1824 would indicate the 'Britannia' only came into existence some time after that date.
Jen
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Where the former Lewis's building now is!
Skoosh.
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Very interesting. Jen and Skoosh.
So we have a John BLAIR, Hotel Keeper in Glasgow in the mid 1820's. Matches the alleged occupation of the father on the Death Certificate for Gordon BLAIR, Australia.
The Gordon BLAIR who married Jane NORVAL in 1850 would probably have a birthdate before 1830, in order to be of usual marrying age, and the sighted one on the 1841 census, aged 15.(reply #8) would confirm this birthdate.
The confusion about place of Birth is a stumbling block.
Sue
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If we are to believe all the evidence then both Gordon and his mother Jane had the same parents - John Blair, Hotelkeeper and Jane Dun. This information appears on both the death certificate of Jane in 1882 and that of Gordon in 1900. They can't both be right! There is very strong evidence that Gordon's father was William, not John. His mother Jane's death certificate says she was married to William Blair and the information on the shipping list for the William Miles in 1855 gives William and Jane as the names of the parents of both Jane Kippen and Elizabeth Aitken, sisters to Gordon.
Isobel
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I'm going round in circles with Blair births...keeping in mind the names Jean, Jane and Janet are interchangeable in Scotland and that St Ninians and Glasgow feature in this story.
In 1800 a Jean Blair is born to a John Blair and a Jean Dunn in Glasgow
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01jx6/
In 1810 a Jean Blair is born to a John Blair and a Jean Dunn in St Ninians
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01jx5/
If the ages of Jean 20, Elizabeth 19 and Gordon 15 are correct on the 1841 census then the Jean born in St Ninians is too young to be Jean's mother which would imply that the one born in Glasgow is the mother. So were there two couples with the same names having children ten years apart?
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The 1800 one is a birth and 1810 one is a baptism, so could be the same person.
Isobel
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I've had a look at the 1800 Glasgow birth and the 1810 St Ninians baptism for Jean Blair. 1800 provides the information that John Blair's occupation was Change keeper, whatever that was and the witnesses were John Ferguson and Hugh Cameron. 1810 baptism was witnessed by the congregation but place of residence of John and Jean is given as Glasgow. I think this may well be the same child in both records.
Isobel
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If we go back to Reply #207
Although there are some discrepancies, has anyone else noticed that the 'dot' for the 'i' is above the 'r' on both?
It may not seem significant but I would say it is ;)
Annie
Added
I also think the 'd' in Gordon looks to be a capital 'D' as the loop/circle of a small 'd' hasn't been filled in?
I have filled in the bit I mean in red ::)
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According to Mr Google a Change Keeper is someone who is in charge of an inn.
Isobel
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If someone is a Solicitor's clerk in Scotland in 1850, then is that similar to an Articled Clerk - ie someone working towards becoming a Solicitor? Would they progress by 1860 to have become a solicitor?
Both the 1863 and 1864 Qld birth registrations have Gordon BLAIR as a Clerk, no mention of Solicitor's clerk.
From the 1900 Qld death for Gordon, his youngest child is the informant, yet Gordon's older son was still alive, and so too was Gordon's widow. Perhaps James William BLAIR was the prominent son.
James William BLAIR, as a legal eagle (as barrister) should have been well trained and experienced in noticing discrepancies in information/evidence, yet it was James William who gave that Gordon was married at age 24 to Julia, in Queensland, and at same time that Gordon was (in August 1900) aged 66 years, 11 months and 4 days. Those two pieces of information conflict. If we accept that Gordon was born 1833, then he turned 24 in 1857, and he was not yet in Queensland, as James William also gives that Gordon was 40 years in Queensland... And then there's the umm.... err... significant ..... error Isobelw found too :D
If we are to believe all the evidence then both Gordon and his mother Jane had the same parents - John Blair, Hotelkeeper and Jane Dun. This information appears on both the death certificate of Jane in 1882 and that of Gordon in 1900. They can't both be right! There is very strong evidence that Gordon's father was William, not John. His mother Jane's death certificate says she was married to William Blair and the information on the shipping list for the William Miles in 1855 gives William and Jane as the names of the parents of both Jane Kippen and Elizabeth Aitken, sisters to Gordon.
Isobel
.
To me, James William's info on Gordon's death cert is based on James William's interpretation of the 1876 marriage certificate (not the registration, but the document handed to the bride at the ceremony) which may have been 'doctored' by others to show a different year for that marriage, or as mentioned in earlier reply, the 24 years may represent the number of years 'ago' that the couple married (1900 less 24 equals 1876).
I still cannot see a solid line joining Gordon in Qld back to Jane Norval in Scotland. I attach a snip from the Glasgow Herald, 11 July 1856 and wonder how the newspaper learnt of the birth, just the day previous, of this baby.... did someone take the info to the newspaper offices? Who were they seeking to inform? Is there any significance to the wording, in particular to the baby's mum being "Mrs Gordon Blair" when the baptism shows James Gordon Blair. Anyways, there's a residential address for Jane Norval in the cutting.
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:F79D-72Y
Australians can obtain (no charge) readers cards for the National Library of Australia. These have 'e-resources' including access from home computers to such electronic resources as the Gale Newspapers :D
http://www.nla.gov.au/app/eresources/browse/143
JM
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I've just spent many hours searching through Glasgow Directories from 1852-1858 the period just after Gordon's marriage to Janet and through to their last child's birth.
All of the birth places listed are essentially in the same area but Gordon & Janet Blair aren't listed as such in those area's at all or anywhere nearby even. 18 Clyde St., is listed on 2 births and at that address in 1855-56 living there is a John Mitchell Merchant & shipowner, John Mitchell jnr Merchant, John Mitchell jnr Ottoman & Portuguese Vice Consul.
A 'John Blair' is there at 55 Clyde Place Tradeston and Tradeston is where 2 other births are listed and he is a Wine & Spirit Merchant and from at least 1852-58 that I found. Is he related to Gordon? and was Gordon living there? In 1851 on the Census Gordon was at 18 Clyde St. as a Solicitor's clerk. What was 18 Clyde St.? A solicitor's Office and or a Portuguese Consul address?
I found 4 Wellcroft Place on an old map and it's close by a few blocks. So they lived there as well.
The only Blair listed in that area was a Mrs. Blair at 18 Russell St., is that where Jane and Gordon lived? why not is it listed as Gordon and or Jane Blair if it is.?
Weird to me and I wonder why? Everytime I needed to find someone in the Scottish directories I have found them. Why not the Blairs. They are certainly well hidden.
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Barrister=we don't have barristers in Scotland.
Solicitor's Clerk, a solicitor then was a Writer, whose clerk might have aspirations? but he was a clerk.
Change House is indeed an inn.
To be admitted to any of the trade incorporations in Glasgow your man would first have to apply for a Burgess'Ticket (still the case) Probably the Merchant's House would have been the same.
Skoosh.
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Just thought i'd have another look at the 1855 birth certificate to compare Gordon's signature with other found. Very poor scan but it looks to me as if Gordon is living at a different address to the birth address in Thistle Street. Is it my imagination, but could it say Stirling?
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Hi isobel,
Does look like Stirling & also looks to be 4th child.
Annie
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Just thought i'd have another look at the 1855 birth certificate to compare Gordon's signature with other found. Very poor scan but it looks to me as if Gordon is living at a different address to the birth address in Thistle Street. Is it my imagination, but could it say Stirling?
I believe on the 1855 birth certificates it asked for the parents birth place and in this case the informant has given Stirling as Gordon Blairs Place of Birth.
Hope this helps :)
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Barrister=we don't have barristers in Scotland.
Solicitor's Clerk, a solicitor then was a Writer, whose clerk might have aspirations? but he was a clerk. ........
Agh, thanks. Earlier (much earlier) in the thread our OP mentions sighting certificates which mention "Writer" as the occupation. Are you saying that this means that the "Writer" was a solicitor in Scotland.
..... I also saw him on some certificates as a 'writer'. Whatever that means. Did he publish? probably not much income doing that, and that as well may have lured him here or caused a problem at home. ? We may never know. .....
JM
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I've just spent many hours searching through Glasgow Directories from 1852-1858 the period just after Gordon's marriage to Janet and through to their last child's birth.
A 'John Blair' is there at 55 Clyde Place Tradeston and Tradeston is where 2 other births are listed and he is a Wine & Spirit Merchant and from at least 1852-58 that I found. Is he related to Gordon? and was Gordon living there?
Just to muddy the waters - John Blair , Wine and Spirit Merchant is listed on 1851 Census at 55 Clyde Place, Tradeston and his place of birth is Dumfriesshire - Kirkconnel (originally Ayrshire- Kirkconnel) . He is 43 years old and is with his family wife Agnes and 2 sons William aged 14 and James aged 10.
Wasn't there some mention much earlier in this post that Gordon was from Dumfriesshire ::) ?
Looby :)
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The address on the 1855 birth of Jane Blair is 116 Thistle Street , Glasgow.
The 1855 Valuation rolls on Scotlands People have a result for a Blair (no first name recorded) at 116 Thistle Street. I used 2 credits to view this. There is a first name written in the original ledger book, but unfortunately the way the book has been opened to take the photo mean that the first name is not visible ::) :-\
However the name Blair is recorded as is occupation, Clerk.
Looby :)
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JM, a solicitor is what the English call a Writer. "Soliciting" was an offence in Scotland! ;D
Skoosh.
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It was the entry under informant that I was querying, not the place of birth of Gordon, which is clearly Stirling.
Isobel
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majm wrote -
I attach a snip from the Glasgow Herald, 11 July 1856 and wonder how the newspaper learnt of the birth, just the day previous, of this baby.... did someone take the info to the newspaper offices? Who were they seeking to inform? Is there any significance to the wording, in particular to the baby's mum being "Mrs Gordon Blair" when the baptism shows James Gordon Blair. Anyways, there's a residential address for Jane Norval in the cutting
There is nothing unusual in the wording of this newspaper announcement. This was the standard format at that time. The announcement would have been placed by a family member and suggests a family slightly higher up the social scale,who could afford to do this.
Isobel
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It was the entry under informant that I was querying, not the place of birth of Gordon, which is clearly Stirling.
Isobel
I see what you are referring to Isobel and there does seem to be another address under Gordon's signature. Unfortunately I can't make anything out ::)
In the past when I had a very poor DC image from SP I asked for their assistance to read it (cause of death was faint and illegible) and they were able to enhance the image, greatly improving it . Maybe worth a wee message to them Isobel :-\
Looby :)
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I think the street name starts with M and, in my opinion, there is a good chance the last word in the address is Sterling. ::)
Sue
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Thanks Loobylooayr, have sent a request to SP.
Have been trying to trace John Blair, Changekeeper, in the Glasgow Directories-
First entry I found was 1804 in New Wynd. Continual entries to 1820 where address is given as 81 New Wynd. Changekeeper there until 1823 when he becomes a Vintner at same address. 1824 he is still down for New Wynd but also new entry for a John Blair at Britannia Tavern. From 1825-6 81 New Wynd is listed to Mrs John Blair, Vintner with John at Britannia Tavern. From 1827-30 Mrs John Blair listed as Vintner 60 New Wynd, John at Britannia Tavern. John disappears 1830 and Mrs John continues at 60 New Wynd till 1832 when she also disappears.
There is a marriage for a John Blair and Jane Dunn in Drymen in 1788 ( scanned copy on a tree on Ancestry). John is described as servant to John McEwan in East Cashlie and Jean Dunn as daughter of deceased James Dunn late in Ballochneck?, both of this parish. They had a son called Thomas in 1788 in Drymen who went on to be minister of Colmonell Church in Ayrshire. Not sure if this is the same couple who had two children (Jane and John) in the early 1800's in Glasgow.
Isobel
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Ballochneck's in Buchlyvie.
Skoosh.
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A couple of points...in 1893 it would appear Gordon Blair was notified of his retirement (based on reaching retirement age for the civil service) and from the newspaper clipping (Oct 13th) it would appear this came as a bit of a surprise - or perhaps I'm reading too much into the piece?
In 1848 Jean Blair (Gordon's sister) married James Kippen the banns were called in both St Ninians and Dunblane. A daughter Isabella was born shortly afterward and a son in August 1851 - both children were christened at St Ninians. I've failed to find them on the 1851 census.
Jen
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Agh, thanks. Earlier (much earlier) in the thread our OP mentions sighting certificates which mention "Writer" as the occupation. Are you saying that this means that the "Writer" was a solicitor in Scotland.
..... I also saw him on some certificates as a 'writer'. Whatever that means. Did he publish? probably not much income doing that, and that as well may have lured him here or caused a problem at home. ? We may never know. .....
JM
In Scotland at that time to be described as a WRITER did mean that you were a qualified and practicing Solicitor. See my summary at reply 145.
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A couple of points...in 1893 it would appear Gordon Blair was notified of his retirement (based on reaching retirement age for the civil service) and from the newspaper clipping (Oct 13th) it would appear this came as a bit of a surprise - or perhaps I'm reading too much into the piece?
I would agree Jen that the newspaper clipping gives the impression that Gordon was not expecting to be "retired" . The article is written Oct 13th....which would fit in with a September date of birth for Gordon , if he had just reached the maximum age for the Civil Service. I wonder what that age limit was in 1893 ?
Looby :)
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Daily Northern Argus 30 Jun 1892 p6
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/213429597?
...article about Public Service retirement conditions......
Possibly Gordon had attained the age of 60 years......and sometime after that he was being retired, hence the surprise.......
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Daily Northern Argus 30 Jun 1892 p6
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/213429597?
...article about Public Service retirement conditions......
Possibly Gordon had attained the age of 60 years......and sometime after that he was being retired, hence the surprise.......
An interesting article ... It is possible that Gordon Blair made the mistake that many others of his age group made according to that article and believed that mandatory retirement was not until 65 whereas between 60 and 65 it was entirely at the discretion of the "Governor in Council".
60 would tie in with the claimed birth date of 1833 but that in itself is problematic as it then excludes the Gordon Blair in Glasgow
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If we accept that this Gordon Blair is the brother of Mrs Jane Marks formerly Kippen maiden name Blair who died aged 78 on 1897 then Gordon is the boy recorded aged 15 on the 1841 Census at Cambusbarron in St Ninians parish Stirling - and then 23 on the 1851 Census in Glasgow then Gordon was 65 or over in October 1893.
However he had given dates of birth in Australia which made him several years younger. Perhaps his true age had somehow come to light....hence the hint of his retirement being a surprise.
Looby :)
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then Gordon was 65 or over in October 1893.
Looby :)
I think his age was an inconvenient number :P
15 in the 1841 census gives us an age range of 15 - 19 (birth dates 1821/22 - 1826)
23 in the 1851 census gives us a birth date around 1828
claimed birth date of 1833
and then it starts getting interesting ;D
With regard to the retirement given what little actual facts we have it is possible to dream up multiple scenarios each of which would appear plausible - for example as his son was a prominent figure - could there have been a political motive behind the panels decision to enforce the regulation ? or could it be that he was just getting on in years and not as physically or as mentally fit as he once was. Or even just that someone with connections wanted his job.
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Jane Kippen was living on her own in 1851 with her 6 month son William. They were at 6 Toll Street, Logierait, Perthshire and she was age 28, Joiner's wife, born Perthshire. Her husband James was lodging at 75 Dunkeld Road, Bankfoot, Perthshire age 28, a Wright, born Fortingall, Perthshire. According to Findmypast he was unmarried but this may be a misreading of the original. The passenger list for the William Miles says he was the son of James and Susan Kippen and there is a matching birth in 1822 in Fortingall to James Kippen and Susan Sinclair who married in Fortingall in 1821.
Isobel
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..... In Scotland at that time to be described as a WRITER did mean that you were a qualified and practicing Solicitor. See my summary at reply 145.
Many thanks Falkyrn.
Rhetorical question again ....
So, would solicitors be listed together under the one heading in the Glasgow professional directories in the 1850s?
So, may I reiterate and perhaps re-word what may well be the crux of the puzzle .... James Gordon BLAIR, writer, is he/could he be a different person from Gordon BLAIR, labourer....
Surely dots do need to join up, particularly as our OP is preparing this research for his friend, who is a descendant of Gordon and Julia BLAIR of Ipswich ... otherwise it is ummm.... not good research.
JM
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And, a further (probably another rhetorical) question ....
If you were a qualified solicitor and you migrated from Scotland to Queensland in the 1860s, why would you avoid practising as a solicitor in Qld....
JM
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Birth information Blair - Norval children and some timeline:
Marriage 7 June 1850. OPR - Gordon Blair clerk in Glasgow & Jane Norval residing there.
Georgina Lorimer Blair born 15 Nov 1850. OPR - Gordon Blair clerk 18 Clyde st Calton & Jane Norval
had a lawful daughter 1st child. witnesses Thomas Scot, James Norval.
Census 1851 7 April - Gordon Blair - Head - M - 23 solicitor's clerk Stirlingshire - St.Ninians
Jane Blair - Wife - M - 21 Lanarkshire - Glasgow
Georgina - dau - 4 m - Lanarkshire - Glasgow
Unnamed child boy born 10 July 1852 - [F] Gordon Blair [M] Jane Norval - from FamilySearch.
James Gordon Blair born 13 Dec 1853. OPR - [F] Gordon Blair [M] Jane Norval - only document I
could find was unreadable. Transcript only.
Jane Blair born 15 Jan 1855 - 116 Thistle st. Gordon Blair - clerk - 26 yrs Stirling - 1 female living
3 boys [unreadable] Jane Blair MS Norval - Informant Gordon Blair ...
and it looks as though he 'signed' it that way even though faint.
James Gordon Blair born 10 July 1856 - 4 Wellcroft Place Glasgow - James Gordon Blair writer - this
is the 1st use of 'writer'. Jane Blair MS Norval. She is the informant and
mother and it appears as though it could be her signature? not 100%
certain but 'Blair' may have started as 'N' and overwritten by a 'B'.
Her mistake? Also 1st use of 'James' was it a registrar mistake?
Thomas Gordon Blair born 27 Sep 1857 - 8 Crawford st. Glasgow. James Gordon Blair writer - Jane
Blair MS Norval. Informant - J Gordon Blair father and it's looking much
like a signature but ... it appears that the 'J' has been squeezed in later.
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If you were a qualified solicitor and you migrated from Scotland to Queensland in the 1860s, why would you avoid practising as a solicitor in Qld....
Equally, why would someone/anyone of that calibre have so many discrepancies in their general personal details, simple questions with dates/places :-\
If this is the 'James Gordon' when did he either 'drop' the James or 'acquire' the James & why the changes :-\
James does feature in his family but I'm still confused by the differing of his birth bet. 1826 & 1833 as that's a big difference from someone in a 'Legal' position & can/should be able to count :-\
Not to mention the differing places of birth, why if it's the same person?
I actually do believe this 'could' be the same person as the Gordon married to Jane Norval.
Very coincidental that he disappears & she is down as a 'widow' although a death for that era is a hit or a miss but it is strange that 'a' Gordon (from Scotland) is now in Aus with same job, having children but doesn't marry the mother until the 7 yr official 'no correspondence/unknown whereabouts' date is up :-\
He seems to 'abide by the law' on that issue if nothing else ;D
He's 'all there & a bit more' when it 'suits' ???
None-the-less, great thread & would love to see something finally proving/disproving whether this is indeed the same person.
This has me so intrigued, better than reading a book & can't wait for the next installment & keeping me from sleeping out of curiosity of what you sleuths come up with :D
Annie
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Re Jane a Widow as per 1861 ..... but no sighting of a burial for her husband in Scotland .... so did he die or did he flee ...
Could he have died serving the Empire .... Crimea War perhaps .... firstly of course he would have needed to enlist .... were there Scottish regiments?
JM
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Such a pity we can't find the death of Jane Norval.
I think the middle name of dau Georgina Lorimer Blair may give a clue to something which may/may not determine a possible link?
I do know that there was some connection in Perth (City), Scotland with a Soft Drinks Company (Factory), the name Peter Lorimer comes to mind who may even have had connections with alcohol (John Blair being a Vintner), I really don't know?
It's the Perth connection I'm wondering about?
It was in my own time but may have gone back decades?
I know of a Rootschatter who may be able to help with this so will PM him!
Annie
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Could he have died serving the Empire .... Crimea War perhaps .... firstly of course he would have needed to enlist .... were there Scottish regiments?
JM,
For the era of a possible death for James Gordon/Gordon there should be a listing on SP as the official docs. began in 1855.
Even if he died abroad he should be listed under 'Minor Records' on SP but he's not listed!
I'm sure I checked 'Wills' a while ago too but nothing.
Plenty of Scottish Regiments, just don't ask me to name them all ;D
Annie
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I think the middle name of dau Georgina Lorimer Blair may give a clue to something which may/may not determine a possible link?
I do know that there was some connection in Perth (City), Scotland with a Soft Drinks Company (Factory), the name Peter Lorimer comes to mind.
Annie
The name has now come to me, sure it was Thomson Craik which would have been prior to any 'Lorimer' connection...Pity!
Annie
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Caledonian Mercury (Edinburgh) Monday 10 March 1856.
War Office March 7 (1856)
8th foot Lieutenant AEneas Gordon Blair, from the Galloway Militia, to be ensign, without purchase, vice Mackay appointed to the 42nd foot
If the above is father of son born 4 Wellcroft Place, Laurieston on 10th July to Mrs Gordon Blair, then where were 42nd Foot stationed and would he have travelled back to sign registry?
Caledonian Mercury 20 Nov 1857
8th Foot ….. Ensign AEeas Gordon Blair, to be Lieutenant, without purchase, vice Grierson, deceased.
Did he get 'home leave' or did wife travel to him for overnight visitation rights.... or is this another Gordon BLAIR in Scotland .... :D
JM
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The London Gazette, February 26, 1864 issue 22823 page 887
8th Foot
Captain Sydney Henry Jones PARRY, from 102 Foot, to be Captain, vice Blair who exchanges. Dated 26 February 1864.
102nd Foot
Captain AEneas Gordon BLAIR from the 8th Foot, to be Captain vice Parry, who exchanges. Dated 26 February 1864.
JM
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102nd Foot
Captain AEneas Gordon BLAIR from the 8th Foot, to be Captain vice Parry, who exchanges. Dated 26 February 1864.
"Captain AEneas Gordon BLAIR"
I can't find what the word/name 'AEneas' means or relates to although from memory this is around the same time as 'a' Gordon being in OZ?
Is there no more info. relating to his 'home/married' life etc?
Seems a bit vague for now?
Annie
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Caledonian Mercury (Edinburgh) Monday 10 March 1856.
War Office March 7 (1856)
8th foot Lieutenant AEneas Gordon Blair, from the Galloway Militia, to be ensign, without purchase, vice Mackay appointed to the 42nd foot
If the above is father of son born 4 Wellcroft Place, Laurieston on 10th July to Mrs Gordon Blair, then where were 42nd Foot stationed and would he have travelled back to sign registry?
JM
JM,
Maybe a question for the 'Armed Forces' Board as they are well up on their stuff ???
They may even find a lot more ;D
Annie
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AEneas ..... wasn't he the son of Aphrodites :P
JM
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AEneas ..... wasn't he the son of Aphrodites :P
JM
Well............
The only connection I could find was Greek Mythology ::)
I think our Gordon was definitely related as he told many myths ;D
Annie
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Re reply 255. I have a barrister imprisoned in England for uttering, serving sentence, mutating to being a merchant, immigration to NZ 1851. Moved thru the social strata into civic positions and finally ended up back in court practicing as barrister. By 1863 wrote An Analytical Digest of Laws in NZ (claiming to be solicitor of High Courts of Westminster). It all began to unravel when it was shown that he had been dis-barred in London. Led to law change throughout the Empire.
So yes, a writer to a labourer wouldn't be out of the question perhaps.
Were there legal scandals of unnamed parties in the papers at the time? Were there legal registers of practicing Writers?
gladyseva
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Barristers in England, Advocates in Scotland. Most solicitor's/writer's were neither. "Writer's to the Signet," fancy Edinburgh lawyers! have a website & presumably a members list.
Skoosh.
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I don't believe there ever was a 'James Gordon Blair'. He was just 'Gordon Blair' and he didn't change it for any deception at all and it's only to my knowledge and recollection used on two occasions. It may have been reprinted several times. It was a big 'initial' mistake by the Registrar.
His name was ?icol MacDougall. He was the registrar on the 1856 BC who has accidently in the absence of the father Gordon and only Jane Blair mother present, wrote the childs name Blair on top, James Gordon underneath correct. Filled in date & where born & time and went onto the father and wrote James Gordon on top and Blair underneath. Still had the name on his mind.
Then comes the slight blunder by either Jane herself or Mr.MacDougall. Could Jane read or write?? as one of them has started with a capital 'N'? maybe? and rewrote Blair over it. Maybe I now think the registrar, as he had just written Norvel as his last word in that column and went up to the next line next column.
14 Months later they're back again to register Thomas Gordon Blair. This time Gordon is present and when it comes to writing the father's name he remembers them or Jane from the previous birth, as he also remembers things didn't go well as young James Gordon Blair died after a month and he was most probably the registrar for that event. [no evidence, supposition by me] .... because now Mr.MacDougall is still the registrar.
It appears to me when the father has to sign on Thomas' BC he signed Gordon Blair because that was his name. Later the registrar then most likely saw what Gordon had written and instead of making a complete mess of the document and or not be embarrassed squeezed in a 'J' as there is no room for 'James' which he thought was his name anyway as he had written it as he knew it at least twice before.
If your name was James Gordon, why would you call yourself Gordon and sign Gordon.
This is the only time I have seen him as 'James Gordon Blair' on Mr.MacDougall's 2 BC of his son's.
In 1855 on daughter Jane's BC he is Gordon Blair and signs Gordon Blair ... different registrar!! and earlier, but they're living close by in the same area 18 months earlier.
I'll stand corrected if someone can come up with a James Gordon Blair connected with the children of Jane Norval or anything else. There are 147 James Blair and 4 with Gordon with another forename and Blair on SP between 1820-1840. No James Gordon or Gordon James even.
The Blairs' certainly tried to call 2 children James only because of a death. Jane had a brother James who was a witness at the birth of Georgina Lorimer Blair. Maybe the James came from her side.
Look at their male children's names - they all had 'Gordon' in them. When Gordon married Julia Droughton the 1st male was Henry Gordon and then James William.
Distinct lack of any 'John' by Gordon which has him as his father on Gordon's DC. Maybe didn't get on with him. ?
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Wonder if this is relevant - Glasgow Free Press 14th July 1860
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I don't believe there ever was a 'James Gordon Blair'. He was just 'Gordon Blair' and he didn't change it for any deception at all and it's only to my knowledge and recollection used on two occasions. It may have been reprinted several times. It was a big 'initial' mistake by the Registrar.
...........
And then - may I contrast - a week or so ago you wrote ..... His name is either Gordon Blair [most used] or James Gordon Blair used often, but I haven't yet seen Gordon James Blair. .......
Please may I ask our OP to consider going through his two opening posts to re-check and possibly consider sorting out if there's any further changes to be made to those statements. (Add, understanding that we have already sorted out James William BLAIR did NOT die before his Dad).
JM
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Some info about the Presbyterian Church in Ipswich .... I notice the leading churchmen include
Prominent members of the Established Church of Scotland at that time were Arthur Macalister, later Premier of Queensland, John Pettigrew, William Hendren, William Craies and Hugh Nelson (later Sir Hugh). The church took on the name of St Stephens in 1862. This early church proved to have faulty foundations, and had to be replaced.
The present St Stephen's church was erected during the time of the Reverend Samuel Wilson, who arrived in 1863, also the year that the twelve independent Presbyterian Church of Scotland congregations united into the one Presbyterian Church of Queensland, with the Rev. Wilson being appointed the first moderator of the united church.
The foundation stone for the new church was laid by the Hon Arthur Macalister in August 1865
So there's mention of Arthur MACALISTER and William HENDREN .... Macalister as in Gordon Blair's first Ipswich employer and Hendren as BDM registrar for Ipswich .... and that the 12 independent congregations united into one under Rev WILSON .... so perhaps the 'impediment' causing Gordon and Julia to marry in 1876 according to Presbyterian rites is simply tied up in an ecclesiastical matter re the status of the celebrant back in 1860s when they were independent congregations. (Perhaps even an irregular Scottish marriage as mentioned many pages ago and accepted by the congregation).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St_Stephen%27s_Church,_Ipswich
JM
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I earlier stated that I had 'seen' those names used with reference to a Gordon Blair.
Why do I see a shadow over head following me all the time.
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Wonder if this is relevant - Glasgow Free Press 14th July 1860
That is very intriguing Isobel !
Could be a huge co-incidence but also could be a man hiding his true identity swapping names about or could be the press printed names wrong way round. I wonder if Flora's house was one of a dubious repute? :-X
Holm Street is in the Anderston area. Wish they had printed his wife's name !
Looby :)
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Reply#274
Some info about the Presbyterian Church in Ipswich .... I notice the leading churchmen include
Prominent members of the Established Church of Scotland at that time were Arthur Macalister, later Premier of Queensland, John Pettigrew, William Hendren, William Craies and Hugh Nelson (later Sir Hugh). The church took on the name of St Stephens in 1862. This early church proved to have faulty foundations, and had to be replaced.
The present St Stephen's church was erected during the time of the Reverend Samuel Wilson, who arrived in 1863, also the year that the twelve independent Presbyterian Church of Scotland congregations united into the one Presbyterian Church of Queensland, with the Rev. Wilson being appointed the first moderator of the united church.
The foundation stone for the new church was laid by the Hon Arthur Macalister in August 1865
So there's mention of Arthur MACALISTER and William HENDREN .... Macalister as in Gordon Blair's first Ipswich employer and Hendren as BDM registrar for Ipswich .... and that the 12 independent congregations united into one under Rev WILSON .... so perhaps the 'impediment' causing Gordon and Julia to marry in 1876 according to Presbyterian rites is simply tied up in an ecclesiastical matter re the status of the celebrant back in 1860s when they were independent congregations. (Perhaps even an irregular Scottish marriage as mentioned many pages ago and accepted by the congregation).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St_Stephen%27s_Church,_Ipswich
JM
Your reply #275
Why do I see a shadow over head following me all the time.
I am wondering OZScot how you intend this remark. ???
One would hope it is not to imply that the help of those more experienced than yourself is not welcome unless it agrees with your own viewpoint.
If you are satisfied that your own expansive view of the circumstances and life of Gordon BLAIR is the correct one, then it is a simple matter to mark your thread as complete.
Meantime, I am personally amazed with the extraordinary resources and breadth of knowledge brought to this topic.
Sue
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Sue,
The remark was that I feel the moment I say anything, JM is hovering overhead waiting to swoop and disagree and even bring up things that aren't relevant like the J.M.Blair mistake which I said that I had the wrong dates posts ago and put my hand up for ... so you can keep bring it up forever.??!!! Who does that ??!!! Not the 1st time either.
I put forward a proposition of why he maybe used or was called James as his name, as none were born in that time period. I didn't say it was gospel. It was a proposed 'find'.
I don't care if people make mistakes. It's not a perfect science. I thought we were all working towards a common goal of what actually happened. After all it was a long time ago and things are hard to find. That's why I asked for help in solving it and the response from most people has been exceptional and I'm amazed at the talent and very pleased and I've also thanked everyone when they help.
It was nothing more than that. I think some people are spoiling for a fight. Why?
I was looking forward to a conclusion but it looks as though I will have to bring it to a halt.
All because of people's nonsense and ego's ???? I haven't said anything to upset anyone.
I didn't think that you would take it the wrong way Sue. One of the last I thought.
What did I 'ever' say to put anyone offside?
If I get a few people to post and say close it down I will.
I thought everyone was enjoying it and the challenge.
Show me one initiated derogatory remark towards anyone and I'll close it now.
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I don't believe there ever was a 'James Gordon Blair'. He was just 'Gordon Blair' and he didn't change it for any deception at all and it's only to my knowledge and recollection used on two occasions. It may have been reprinted several times. It was a big 'initial' mistake by the Registrar.
...........
I must admit that I don't believe that there ever was a James Gordon Blair BUT I do believe there was every intention to pass off a deception
There are at least two occasions on official records where the "Glasgow" Blair uses the double barrelled name of "James Gordon Blair" in 1857 at the birth of his son his details are recorded as JAMES GORDON BLAIR and signed J Gordon Blair on another occasion his wife in reporting the death of the same son reports the father to be James Gordon Blair. On both of these occasions his occupation is claimed to be that of "Writer". Although it is theoretically possible that a Clerk in a Solicitors office could become a Solicitor at that time period it was expensive and time consuming having to at least register with the University and then having to pass an exam either by the Royal Faculty of Procurators in Glasgow or The Society of Writers to Her Majesty’s Signet.
- - whether the deception/claim was for personal gain or a "Walter Mitty" type of self promotion we'll never know.
Surprisingly as I have said previously there appears to be several Jane Norvals about in Glasgow at that time period but the chances of two such women marrying a man with the surname Blair and having ties with the legal community must be extremely small.
I believe that Gordon Blair husband of Jane Norval as per the 1850 marriage is the same person as James Gordon Blair the claimed Writer and father of Jane Norval's child in 1857 - where the waters start getting murky are the assumptions where this Gordon seems to disappear around the 1860 mark and a person with the same name appears in Australia the following year.
Is there a proven link or have we just settled for acceptance of the easiest route - they have the same name so must be the same person ?
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Sorry, this is a bit of a ramble...It would appear to me that William Kippen had a hand in much that is written about this family in Australia.
He claimed his mother only ever had two children - James who died in infancy and himself. From the family's arrival in 1855 (and the index at Family Search) a William Kippen and a Jean Blair had a daughter Isabella christened in 1848, not showing with her mother on the 1851 census, but showing on the shipping document age 6 along with her younger brother William.
Somewhere in this thread someone mentioned that Elizabeth may have married a Robert Aitken - well if that is correct she can be found on the 1851 census in St Ninians with her mother - Margaret Blair and two young children Isabella (2) and William (0). From the 1851 census both Elizabeth and Jean claim to be born in Perth, Perthshire - the mother Margaret has Glasgow down as her place of birth - she also claims to be the widow of an agricultural labourer. ::)
IF these two are the sisters of Gordon why is their mother listed as Margaret, the widow of an agricultural labourer, and why is Perth given as their place of birth?
Jen
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I think both Elizabeth (Aitken) and Jean (Kippen) were very likely born in Perthshire. Both are shown as not born in county in 1841 ( whereas brother Gordon is shown as born in Stirlingshire) and as born in Perth in 1851.
Isabella is a conundrum. James and Jean had a daughter Isabella in 1848 who is missing from the 1851 census and later it was claimed that Jane Kippen only had two children - William and a child James who died young. Yet in 1855 they have an Isabella listed as their daughter on the passenger list.
Robert and Elizabeth Aitken have no recorded birth for a daughter Isabella ( though there are two entries for a Jean, one in 1847 and one in 1849). In 1851 the census shows a daughter Isabel age 2 and stepdaughter Jane Cameron age 5 plus William 1 month. There is no Isabella on the shipping list for this family. Yet in 1873 when Robert Aitken died he left a will naming his children viz my daughter Jane Cameron, unmarried, Isabella now wife to John Stewart, Elizabeth now wife to Peter Sheridan and Jemima, unmarried ( born in 1855 in New South Wales) and son William.
Elizabeth Aitken/Blair died in 1904 in Copeton NSW. At some point she 'married' Asmus Strandt. Trees on Ancestry suggest that she had children by him from 1858 onwards even though her husband Robert Aitken did not die till 1873. There is no mention of her at all in Robert's will, suggesting they may have seperated shortly after arriving in NSW.
Both Elizabeth Aitken and Jean Kippen give parents as William and Jean on the shipping lists so don't know where Margaret comes from on the 1851 census. Place of birth (Glasgow) matches what we have for Jane Blair, daughter of John Blair and Jean Dunn but age is five years out.
This family is driving me nuts!!
Isobel
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The London Gazette, February 26, 1864 issue 22823 page 887
8th Foot
Captain Sydney Henry Jones PARRY, from 102 Foot, to be Captain, vice Blair who exchanges. Dated 26 February 1864.
102nd Foot
Captain AEneas Gordon BLAIR from the 8th Foot, to be Captain vice Parry, who exchanges. Dated 26 February 1864.
JM
This man is listed on the 1861 Census England at Gosport Barracks , Alverstoke , Hampshire.
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M743-6QH
His year of birth is 1837 - if this is correct he cannot be the Gordon Blair who marries in 1850.
I couldn't find him on the 1871 (possibly overseas? on service) but he is listed on 1881 Census - as Amos G Blair - born 1837 Kirkcudbright . https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q27W-LXYV
He is listed as Aeneas Blair on the 1841 Census in Kirkcudbright - 4 year old son of David and Mary Blair.
So I think we can rule the Captain/Lieutenant Aeneas Gordon Blair out as being the husband of Jane Norval.
Looby :)
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Hi OzScot,
May I please mention that I have no knowledge of ever meeting you, or any other RChatter. I can assure you that I do not hover, nor do I wait to swoop, nor do I set out to disagree or bring up things that are not relevant. In fact I do not understand the origins or the intent of your comments about me at reply #278. I see no reason for suggesting that anyone is spoiling for a fight, or that anyone posting on this thread does so by posting nonsense or has some ‘ego’ purpose. I did not post any comment in anticipation of putting anyone offside, but I do not appreciate being the focus of your comment ‘Why Do I see a Shadow over head following me all the time’ …. I am not a shadow, and I do not follow any particular RChatter’s posts at any time.
I do not care about what information you gather for your own personal family history, but I do care that as you are preparing information for someone else’s personal family history that you seek out primary sources, as well as secondary sources, and that you analyse both to fully extract fact from fiction, for to me, the greatest gift a friend can share with another friend is that of sharing knowledge.
JM
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Hi OZScot,
Yes it was the 1861 census when she is living as a boarder in the household of Esther Jamieson. The transcript on Findmypast says she was a widow. The original entry on Scotlandspeople ( pay to view) would confirm this.
I have also found a newspaper entry in the Glasgow Sentinel of 31/1/1863 which reports that the mistress of an establishment of questionable fame in Maxwell Street was fined £5.00 with the alternative of 30 days imprisonment for an assault on Jane Norval or Blair at the premises in Maxwell Street. This suggests to me that Jane may have been working as a prostitute.
Isobel
Still looking for what happened to Jane Norval/Blair after 1861 when she was listed at 42 Maxwell Street and 1863 when she was assaulted in Maxwell Street.
Is it a co-incidence that 1867 -1868 Post Office Directory Glasgow has a listing for a Mrs Janet Blair , commer. lodgings (commercial lodgings) , 52 Maxwell Street ?
http://www.archive.org/stream/postofficeannual186768gla#page/n113/mode/2up
Must look at other directories.
Looby :)
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Wonder if this is relevant - Glasgow Free Press 14th July 1860
Hello Isobel, This was a great find and could be the smoking gun that could explain why he left.
Once again the name is rubbery as usual with him but has all the names he has used previously but the job description and the timeline match are perfect.
If he was working for a Law Firm back then I assume it would have been instant dismissal as it would today. No self respecting Law Firm could afford to be attached to a serious scandal such as this as I'm sure that if it's him, he is now out of a job and he has been exposed in the paper as a wife beater. Time to leave and look for a new life. He set sail to Moreton Bay Brisbane 15 April 1861.
If we can find more details somewhere of this case it most probably will have his wife's name and if this house of Flora Sinclair's is indeed a brothel.? If it is it could signal that a bust up started earlier between them before 1861 and she essentially may have had no options left and he has found out and felt disgrace because of his position in his Law Firm. They even may have found out what she was doing and he was dismissed by them.
All a bit of a guess as usual.
Any ideas where I can contact to find this information Isobel?
Thanks.
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Thanks Looby great find Mrs. Janet Blair Commercial Lodgings sounds like it could be her for sure.
Maxwell street led down to the river Clyde from Argyle street back then and is much shorter today.
Jane Norval was in 28-77 Saltmarket St on 1841 Census with her parents age 11yrs. Maxwell street is not far from there. I found a few pictures of the area back then including #30 Saltmarket St.!! presumably next door.
When she married Gordon Blair they lived at 18 Clyde St., Calton. Calton wasn't a nice place to live as it had a high infant death rate and male life expectancy rates were in the low 50's. The Blair's lost 4 of their 5 children while living there and nearby. The area was full of Iron Foundry's, Cotton & Flax Mills, Flour Mills, Powerloom Factories, Boiler & Engine works, Ropewalks etc.
The cacophony of noise would be incredible & add to that the toxic smells from those industries hanging in the air where people had to put up with bad ventilation lack of sunlight etc.
The photo's will paint a better picture ...
Thanks Looby.
http://special.lib.gla.ac.uk/exhibns/month/Mar2006.html
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Sharing some of my scribbed notes…
Re isobelw’s reply #281 and Falkyrn’s reply #279 - And Gordon BLAIR’s sisters as per Qld dc 1882 (#C1284) for his mother Jane BLAIR.
If Gordon in Qld were previously husband to Jane NORVAL in Scotland, then Gordon’s sisters were Aunt to Jane’s (Norval) children by Gordon, and so Gordon’s mum was grandmother to Jane NORVAL’s children.
A question ....
Has there been any contact made with the descendants of Gordon’s sisters to see if there’s any mention of Georgina Lorimer BLAIR born 1850, in their respective families’ private papers, particularly when Georgina married in Scotland in 1868?
Now that would have to ‘clinch’ the connection, but the test simply does not need to be ‘that high’, although it should be higher than accepting the easiest route, of matching same names etc…. And so I support Falkyrn at #279 “Is there a proven link or have we just settled for acceptance of the easiest route – they have the same name so must be the same person ?”
To save others scrolling back through here’s the familysearch links for Georgina.
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X1S9-K9Z 1850
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XYWQ-4B7 1868
Re Gordon Blair, passenger on the Mangerton departing 15 April 1861 to Moreton Bay.
I mentioned earlier that the ship left from Plymouth, Devon, England. Plymouth seems to be a long way from Glasgow, and there were ships leaving Glasgow bound for the East Coast ports here in Australia, so when did Gordon quit Glasgow and when did he get to Plymouth? Where is he in the 1861 UK Census taken 7 April 1861… :)
Re being known by your middle given name rather than by your first given name.
As far as I am aware, it was not at all unusual during the 19th Century and for much of the 20th Century for people to be known by their middle name instead of their first given name.
So, perhaps as an aside or two …
One very good friend is known by ‘everyone’ as Michael. His given names are John Peter. My Uncle Jim’s birth cert has Richard George as his given names, and my Dad’s bc has John Albert, - answering to Harry of course. ::)
Two very prominent Australians were both known by their middle given names, during their public life, both became Prime Ministers of Australia, in the 1970s. And they were of course Gough Whitlam and Malcolm Fraser.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gough_Whitlam
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malcolm_Fraser
JM
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If Gordon left for Australia on the 15th of April, by rights he should appear on the Scottish or English census as pointed out by JM way back in this thread.
I did have a fairly good search for him in both England and Scotland, but did not find him.
Might it be worth revisiting that search? It just struck me now that I neglected to search for initials - he may be enumerated thus if he was in lodgings with numerous others prior to setting sail. (Or, he may not have bothered to provide his personal details as he was leaving.
The Scottish census can be difficult as the transcriptions sometimes leave a lot to be desired accuracy wise. :)
Added: apologies to you JM. I see we are thinking along similar lines - I neglected to read your post before posting mine regarding the 1861 census.
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As always, it is fine Ruskie, no need to apologise, very long thread, and some difficult posts, and I was posting at same time as the RChat system was finalising its daily re-boot.
ADD and I was trying to modify my post to set it out better, with sub-headings etc rather than as I had originally typed it up in my word document, before getting 'hung' on the 'waiting for' queue for that re-boot that currently comes through at around 11:15 am NSW Standard time.
JM
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Ruskie thanks for searching.
Gordon I see as not a meticulous man going on his past record keeping of dates and places of birth certainly in his mind. I don't see him looking to be accounted for with 7/8 days to go in his old life.
A life he may be running away from if it's him assaulting his wife. He's looking forward to his new life.
A note from his daughter's bad copy MC to Mr. Bamber. She correctly states her parents names and says Gordon Blair is a [unreadable] Clerk. She doesn't say 'deceased' on either of them. Probably a guess with her father Gordon but she would know of her mother Jane she calls Blair MS Norval.
She married in 1868 so Jane was still alive presumably then and not remarried.
There is yet to be found her death date.
Thanks.
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Attaching a snip, I suggest that Georgina's dad was noted on her 1868 mc as Gordon BLAIR, Mercantile Clerk.
JM
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Thanks JM.
I thought it may have been Mercantile but I couldn't see a crossed 't' so stayed out.
Gordon may have written her letters - Sounds better than a guess & would like to think so.
Mercantile Clerk: Trade & Commerce. Customs Clerk: Trade, Commerce & Tax.
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There's actually a grand board at RChat, the Deciphering Board... Here's a link, there's some real experts across on that board.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/handwriting-deciphering-recognition/
If Georgina is connected with your friend's Gordon BLAIR, then I suspect any contact would have been via his sisters or his mum, which is why I asked the question about if your friend had had contact with their descendants, with a view to any private family papers.
JM
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She's very old I'm afraid, has a reasonably good memory still but has very little if any paper work.
To get information from her is very slow, I have to go through my wife then to her daughter and her daughter asks her mum when she goes and visits her as she is still independant ... and it comes back the same slow way. When she get's any updates from me that are confirmed fact she asks her daughter where did he get that from? 'the internet Mum'... 'I don't understand all that dear'. God love her.
She proclaims she doesn't know any of her other [father's] side she says. I have found out probably why. She would have had a very hard time of it growing up in her family and I don't intend to give her anything other than names and dates after I speak to her daughter. Sometimes little said is enough said.
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Flora Sinclair was living at 157 Holm Street in 1861 and is described as a Lodging House Keeper.
Isobel
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OzScott, as obtaining any information from elderly relatives is so convoluted, I would suggest something which you may already have tried, and that is writing out a list of questions and leaving them with her to think about and answer if or when she can. This might be easier than firing off a load of questions she feels unable to answer and perhaps not recalling immediately or getting muddled.
I'm sure that collectively the rootschatters who have contributed to the thread can put together a list of questions for you to pass on to this lady. The questions need to be very straightforward and simple. I always end with something along the lines of "can you recall any family stories or gossip no matter how small" and " if you think of anything at a later date please let me know".
I did something like this and it was very worthwhile. I posted an elderly relative of my OH's a sheet of paper with a dozen questions and left a space for replies. I included a self addressed envelope. The sheet was eventually returned to me with most of the answers to the questions unknown, however a couple of vague answers to a couple of the questions was enough for me to eventually track down the illusive ancestor I had been searching for. Sometimes people do have some nuggets of information which they feel are not important enough to bother with, but they can prove quite the opposite. :)
Just an idea. :)
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It would be useful to locate Jane BLAIR's arrival in Australia, and her whereabouts in the early years -
I think this article, recorded during a period of extensive flooding in the area, accounts for James KIPPEN's death.
The Empire 1 Jun 1855 p5
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/60178479?
We are also Informed that three men of Mr. T. de Lacy MOFFAT's were drowned in Fraser's Creek, and that his brother had but a narrow escape with his life.
In 1884 William KIPPEN names his first son, second child, Harold Delacey KIPPEN.
William KIPPEN does well in life, being part owner of an established newspaper in 1877, aged 24 years. His sense of connection to the MOFFATT family must have been significant. Possibly he had the patronage of the influential MOFFATTs.
(reference to obit Jane BLAIR, 1882, removed by me )
At the death of Jane BLAIR, 1882, her grandson William KIPPEN is informant and names three living children (the word "living" is written above the names), including a daughter Elizabeth.
I think that this living daughter did not come to Australia, either as unmarried, or married.
Gordon BLAIR and his sons are obviously held in high regard by his family, and you can see reference to James William BLAIR in BDM, social occasions etc in the newspapers, numerous instances of his connection to BLAIRS, STANLEYs and DROUGHTONs.
I am not seeing any such instances, in Australia or NZ, that would lead to the family of Elizabeth BLAIR (alive at 1882)...........or Isabella KIPPEN (alive at 1855).
I do not have any ideas about the life of Isabella KIPPEN, but I suspect that Elizabeth BLAIR (alive 1882) migrated to another country...U.S, Canada, South Africa, but not NZ.......by the time that mother Jane BLAIR left Scotland to join her son and daughter in QLD.
Jane BLAIR left Scotland when all of her three children had also left Scotland.
Is there anything to find in a newspaper in Scotland about James William BLAIR, of the local family that prospered in the colonies?
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William Miles 1855 passenger list :
https://data.qld.gov.au/dataset/assisted-immigration-1848-to-1912
and
http://indexes.records.nsw.gov.au/ebook/list.aspx?series=NRS5316&item=4_4791&ship=William%20Miles
Oops, I missed the following words from my word document ..... So we need to find their Immigration records to see who was already in NSW awaiting their arrival and the names/status of their parents etc.
JM
-
Confirming Jane BLAIR (Gordon's mum) was still in Stirlingshire, Scotland in January 1855, and his father was deceased.
Snip from Immigration for KIPPER family on William Miles.
JM
-
This is the obituary of Jemima Aitken ( born in 1855 in NSW to Robert Aitken and Elizabeth Blair). Think the final paragraph ( plus the Frazers Creek link) proves that Elizabeth Aitken in NSW was the sister of Gordon and Jane ( Kippen).
Isobel
-
First part of obituary
-
Hi Wivenhoe,
This thread
Page 16 Reply #140
Page 18 #158
And others
Offer some sightings and conversation about the shipping arrival, passengers and their relationships to each other, including the NIECE theory in regard to Jane BLAIR and Elizabeth and the name KIPPER (sic).
Sue
-
Should have said obit is in the Inverell Times 2/12/1929 (Trove). Will post the rest of it here and below. Will only let me post small sections.
-
And the details of her children.
-
Found a possible 1871 census entry for Jane Blair/Norval. It is for a Mrs Blair, age 31, born in Glasgow and she is a patient in the Belvidere Fever Hospital, London Road, Calton, Lanarkshire. Occupation is Housewife.
Isobel
-
Found a possible 1871 census entry for Jane Blair/Norval. It is for a Mrs Blair, age 31, born in Glasgow and she is a patient in the Belvidere Fever Hospital, London Road, Calton, Lanarkshire. Occupation is Housewife.
Isobel
Worth a check given the Blair & Norval connection but bearing in mind she was married and had a child by 1850 and this census entry would have given a birth date around 1840
-
Sorry - should say age 40. Thinking about Year of birth! In 1851 Jane was 21, so this is a possible.
Isobel
-
Does anyone know, is there a way to get access to the information in these records?
What level of detail is recorded about patients?
http://www.archives.gla.ac.uk/gghb/collects/hb65.html
Sue
-
WoW!!! Opened the Computer earlier this morning and Boom!!
The Ancestry tooth fairy had come overnight. Can't wait to go through it all.
Cut my early morning walk with my wife and family [6kg Tibetan Terrier] to get back to it.
A BIG thanks to everyone from me and the lady's Family as well I'm sure. Eventually she will
be told of all the help involved from a lot of great people from all the 4 corners.
I was given an old dusty blank canvas that was handed to me that I knew had an unknown picture underneath and a lot of unknown people had painted parts of it. It had two revealed faces of a mother and daughter.
I brushed off some of the easier areas and I saw this picture will be great and it will tell an amazing untold story. It needed to be seen. The dust of several hundred years needed expert conservation to reveal the rest. I took it to a place where I knew there were experts who would help to try and reveal the rest.
Thanks.
More later.♥
-
Flora Sinclair was living at 157 Holm Street in 1861 and is described as a Lodging House Keeper.
Isobel
Sounds like a good cover for that type of work. People coming and going as 'boarders'. From memory the other place was also a Lodging House and Jane was 'boarding' there and a corset maker. I'm certain it was one now. I saw an old picture of Holm street and it made Saltmarket street look like a seaside Boulevard.
I looked at some directories and at the address there were all sorts of people and businesses at one time or another and one I saw was a 'Dressmakers'.
Thanks Isobel.
-
Found a possible 1871 census entry for Jane Blair/Norval. It is for a Mrs Blair, age 31, born in Glasgow and she is a patient in the Belvidere Fever Hospital, London Road, Calton, Lanarkshire. Occupation is Housewife.
Isobel
That sounds like another good fit and she changes her name regularly to suit. Good work.
The age is perfect.
I'd hate to be on the run and hiding under a rock in the desert and Detective Isobel had a tip off that he's somewhere in that vast expanse ... I wouldn't feel safe. That goes for everybody too.
-
*** Ruskie thanks for your advice about getting details from her Mum but I took the cowards way out some time ago and left it all to her daughter.
I think that she can screen all questions that can be asked whether delicate or not and what she wants to show her.
*** Wivenhoe thanks for your great and meticulous information once again that would have taken a lot of research and time just typing it all so succinctly.
*** Nothing yet from the churches.
An oddity about her mother's parents - there is no DC's of them on the Qld register's. I've been in touch with Ipswich Cemeteries [driving them mad I'm afraid] looking for all they have and they have been great. Have found most of what I want but not that so far.
More to come.
-
An oddity about her mother's parents - there is no DC's of them on the Qld register's. I've been in touch with Ipswich Cemeteries [driving them mad I'm afraid] looking for all they have and they have been great. Have found most of what I want but not that so far.
Qld BDM has restricted access to non historic registrations, and so the online indexes do not display recent registrations. Each of the eight jurisdictions in Australia have their own BDM registers and these state/territories regulations are not yet harmonised. Perhaps the deaths of her parents are within Qld BDM's restricted access period.
From Qld BDM:
https://www.qld.gov.au/law/births-deaths-marriages-and-divorces/family-history-research/information-and-how-to-access-and-order-records/information-you-can-access/
Historical records are:
•births that took place more than 100 years ago
•marriages that took place more than 75 years ago
•deaths that occurred more than 30 years ago.
How to access non historic records Qld BDM
https://www.qld.gov.au/law/births-deaths-marriages-and-divorces/birth-death-and-marriage-certificates/death-certificates/applying-for-a-death-certificate/
JM
-
Does anyone know, is there a way to get access to the information in these records?
What level of detail is recorded about patients?
http://www.archives.gla.ac.uk/gghb/collects/hb65.html
Sue
May I add to Sue's great question and ask if the following Glasgow website would be useful too.
http://www.glasgowguide.co.uk/info-tya.html
JM
-
JM, her parents both died before the 1987 cut off date.
Thanks.
-
Are you sure they died in Qld?
Have you contacted Qld BDM to ask for assistance in locating the registrations?
There are known flaws in most of the BDM online indexes covering the various Australian states/territories. Some have been discussed previously at RChat on the Australia board.
JM
-
I've been waiting a week already to the answers of these approx or actual death date questions from the Mother and the daughter said she had some answers from her written down on a piece of paper but now she has lost it. !!! ::)
Mother remember's them being buried in Ipswich only, hence my back and forth with them. They sent me attached snip along with other related burials. See where they couldn't get it either - maybe back then? and I couldn't now.
So now I wait again. This has been the process all along. She may have an age of them hopefully.
-
In this cutting, for Henry Gordon BLAIR's death/funeral, I think you may find that your friend's mum is mentioned using the initials for her given names, and in contrast to other family members, there's no mention of her husband.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/118255331 Qld Times 28 July 1954
JM
-
JM.
I have that Trove piece.
Whilst it's her Maternal Grandfather 'Harry' she and or her initials are not mentioned.
Thanks.
-
so umm.... Mrs I M O'Connor is not related to your friend ??? .....
JM
-
so umm.... Mrs I M O'Connor is not related to your friend ??? .....
JM
Yes it's her mother but this person's name isn't on there I was referring to. I'm trying to keep from naming her and giving any clues to her identity as you know she's still alive.
-
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/114556453 Queensland Times 5 June 1944
This cutting may add some sadness to part of Isabella Margaret O'Connor's marriage.
Yes, I realised there's something amiss re some of the grandchildren in that HG Blair cutting, and that was part of why I was so very careful in how I had worded my post :
In this cutting, for Henry Gordon BLAIR's death/funeral, I think you may find that your friend's mum is mentioned using the initials for her given names, and in contrast to other family members, there's no mention of her husband.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/118255331 Qld Times 28 July 1954
JM
.
It was your reply that confused me :)
JM.
I have that Trove piece.
Whilst it's her Maternal Grandfather 'Harry' she and or her initials are not mentioned.
Thanks.
Anyway, sorted now. :)
JM
-
Does anyone know, is there a way to get access to the information in these records?
What level of detail is recorded about patients?
http://www.archives.gla.ac.uk/gghb/collects/hb65.html
Sue
It would definitely be worth sending a quick email to ask the question. I don't know what is likely to be included in the records but one of our Scottish rootschatters may do.
It might be worth starting a new thread with a specific lookup request and hopefully one of the kind Glasgow based rootschatters might volunteer their services.
Added: rememeber to provide a link to this thread if you start any related threads.
-
Ruskie,
There's a contact page on their site;
http://www.archives.gla.ac.uk/gghb/contact.html
Then an Enquiry Form to fill in which is encouraging;
http://www.archives.gla.ac.uk/gghb/gghbform.html
Annie
-
Hopefully of interest ....
http://www.archivessearch.qld.gov.au/Search/BasicSearch.aspx
INDEX info only
Eccs Files
Gordon BLAIR Series 4486 Item 281260
Julia BLAIR, Item 2815283
Land Agreement 23/9/1863-22/2/1864
Gordon BLAIR as Purchaser …. Series 1215, Item 1959983
These files would also be on my 'must have' list if this family were on my family tree. 2 x Probate and 1 x Land
Qld State Archives website has “How can we help you?” page too. I think it would be good to check these files for Gordon and Julia BLAIR. Probate files should contain proof of death, the will, beneficiaries, administrative details and if Qld Probate files are similar to NSW ones, can even contain vital family history documents **, including hand sketches of family trees used during the hearings for proving a grant of probate. The land file dates from September 1863, and it may have a clear signature for Gordon ....
**ADD .... fingers crossed, as I wonder if there's baptism records there for Henry Gordon and James William, the sons of Gordon and Julia BLAIR....
JM
-
Ruskie,
There's a contact page on their site;
http://www.archives.gla.ac.uk/gghb/contact.html
Then an Enquiry Form to fill in which is encouraging;
http://www.archives.gla.ac.uk/gghb/gghbform.html
Annie
I followed through the information presented on the 1871 Census about the Hospital and it opened in 1870 sometime and the Census was 2 April 1871 so she was admitted in that timeframe. The hospital was mainly for infectious diseases so it doesn't look good for Jane. As there is yet to be found her DC my guess is she didn't come out and maybe buried a pauper but there still should be a record of it somewhere - maybe in these records.
The previous last mention of Jane was at 52 Maxwell St which suggested another possible 'establishment of questionable fame' in 1867-68. 1868 was the year Georgina Blair was married maybe a coincidence. Georgina's 1st child was born c1871 maybe the year Jane died. Sir James William Blair was born May 1870 the last child of Gordon Blair.
I can't help feel sorry for Jane regardless of what happened and we may never know.
Two very different lives were split into two different destiny's in 1860.
I filled the form out and asked some questions on that site Annie.
10 working days wait now.
Thanks.
-
OZS,
You may be lucky & hear back sooner, especially if the person who receives the email is intrigued with your query ??? ;D
Annie
-
Well there you go. 'Mail Delivery System' <Mailer-Daemon> message.
Unbelievable.
Something wrong with that site as I tried to search for quite a bit of information
earlier and yesterday and it came up mostly Page error 404.
Broken links everywhere usually means no one is looking after it.
I was looking forward to seeing what fate finally met Jane.
-
Aww, may have to be snail mail OR try the telephone number, as they may not know the link doesn't work?
Annie
-
The previous last mention of Jane was at 52 Maxwell St which suggested another possible 'establishment of questionable fame' in 1867-68.
Hi Ozscot,
It was myself who mentioned 52 Maxwell Street - however can I just point out - we do not know that was definitely Jane. The listing in the Post Office Directories is for a Mrs Janet Blair and the property is a commercial lodging house. This could be Jane with a slight name change or it might be some-one different altogether,
I would say your last sighting of Jane is the newspaper article which reports the assault on her in 1863?
Jane is certainly not recorded as being deceased by a 17 year old Georgina in 1868 when she marries. Although she could've neglected to tell the registrar that her mother was deceased I would think it more likely that Jane was alive at this point. Georgina and new husband move very soon after to England....one wonders if Jane moved with them or stayed behind alone in Glasgow.
Looby :)
-
FreeBDM births MarQ 1882 W.Derby 8b 468
BAMBER Henry Gordon
QLD BDM death
1922 C2043 Henry Gordon BAMBER parents Patterson Janvern BAMBER / Georgina Lorimer
NAA WW1
BAMBER George : SERN 4358 : POB Liverpool England : POE Sydney NSW
NOK M BAMBER Georgina
-
FreeBDM births MarQ 1882 W.Derby 8b 468
BAMBER Henry Gordon
QLD BDM death
1922 C2043 Henry Gordon BAMBER parents Patterson Janvern BAMBER / Georgina Lorimer
NAA WW1
BAMBER George : SERN 4358 : POB Liverpool England : POE Sydney NSW
NOK M BAMBER Georgina
BAMBER, Henry Gordon
Mother BLAIR
1882
WEST DERBY 08B/468
Sue
;D
-
Wivenhoe what have you found !!!???
Are you a magician? what rabbit have you pulled out of the Blair hat??
Just as the Blair Dragon's fire was nearly out and done ... this!
What even made you look for Georgina's son in Qld?
You certainly think outside the square. Great find and I have to go out now.!!
Probably can't get back until Sunday morning now.
One thing I'm thrilled about is they kept in touch. I thought and was hoping so
when she said on her MC what work he was doing. It was too close for a guess.
I'm soooo ...... pleased.
Made my day.
Thanks.♥
-
An arrival.
1911
H G BAMBER. Aged 31. Mariner. Born England. Intending permanently to live in Aust.
Ship, Runic. Departing Liverpool. To Sydney.
The attestation papers for George BAMBER show his mother's address as
17 Sylvania Road, ? ? , Liverpool, England.
His father was Mr P BAMBER.
Sue
-
Adding further to Wivenhoe's good find, the deaths of Paterson and Georgina.
Deaths Dec 1932
BAMBER Georgina L
Aged 81
At W.Derby
8b 336
Deaths Jun 1924
BAMBER Paterson J
Aged 73
At W.Derby
8b 537
Sue
-
A sad end, I think for Henry Gordon BAMBER, Second Officer. 1922.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/217093931
Sue
-
Here are some more births which seem to be to Georgina and her husband.
BAMBER, Alison Elizabeth
Mother BLAIR
1875 Dec Quarter
WEST DERBY AND TOXTETH PARK
08B/ 468
BAMBER, Edith Jane
Mother BLAIR
1879 Dec Quarter
WEST DERBY AND TOXTETH PARK
08B /514
BAMBER, Caroline
Mother BLAIR
1885 Dec Quarter
WEST DERBY
08B /499
BAMBER, Lily Agnes
Mother BLAIR
1889 Sept Quarter
WEST DERBY
08B /452
BAMBER, Arthur
Mother BLAIR
1887 Mar Quarter
WEST DERBY
08B / 425
BAMBER, Edward
Mother BLAIR
1883 Dec Quarter
WEST DERBY
08B /457
BAMBER, Frederick Paterson
Mother BLAIR
1878 Mar Quarter
WEST DERBY AND TOXTETH PARK
08B /478
Sue
-
Well Found Wivenhoe :)
https://recordsearch.naa.gov.au/SearchNRetrieve/Interface/ViewImage.aspx?B=3047764
80 plus pages of WWI service file.
ADD, Alas, :( I did not notice anything in the file to suggest he had contact with the BLAIR family in Qld.
JM
-
I think it is interesting that the death record for Henry Gordon BAMBER names his mother, with her family name.
If the record was informed by his employer, eg from staff records, it might name a next of kin ie his father, but hardly his mother's full name. This certificate would be interesting to see.
Who gave this information?. Unless his employers made more effort to find his family than they did to find him (on Thursday Island).
Otherwise, I suspect that the appearance of George certainly, and Henry possibly, is just the movement of adventurous men to the colonies, and independent of the BLAIRs being there.
-
I think the chap overboard off Thursday Island must have been found alive, for :-[ :-[ :-[ EDIT TO MAKE BOLD RED AND TO STRICK THROUGH.... JM confused the two brothers... :-X
the AIF papers show a letter 6 June 1952 from NSW Public Trustee re death at Concord Repat Hospital (Sydney NSW) for George BAMBER, 4398 who died 12 May 1952.
:-\ HOWEVER, ..... NAA files have been found to sometimes have flaws.... (page 39 of 81)
:-\ So, perhaps there's one here too.... Page 38 has Bamber G of 53rd Battn with reg no. 4358 (not 4398 as at page 39).
:-\ Page 8 has altered that service no. from 4658 to 4358..... (discharging a George Bamber in Feb 1916 'unlikely to become an efficient soldier') .... and
:-\ page 1 has also been altered from 4658 to 4358....
:-\ :-\ :-\ And to complicate it further ....
:-X NSW BDM has the 1952 death indexed as though that George was aged 44 years. (#12746)
family history searching is not meant to be this difficult ......
Trove has
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/18264748 14 May 1952 Sydney Morning Herald. Two funeral announcements for him, including one from the Disabled Soldiers Association, for their esteemed member, George BAMBER, 1st AIF.
JM
-
NSW State Archives has a Probate file for George BAMBER
Series 4-392630 Date of Death 12 May 1952, Granted on 31 July 1952
ADD
Intestate
George Bamber, late of Concord, formerly of Dawes Point, NSW ..... Ship's Cook
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/18276820 8 August 1952 SMH
Almost every photo of the Sydney Harbour Bridge would include Dawes Point. It is where the south Pylon sits.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dawes_Point,_New_South_Wales
JM
-
I have edited reply #340
JM
-
I think it is interesting that the death record for Henry Gordon BAMBER names his mother, with her family name.
If the record was informed by his employer, eg from staff records, it might name a next of kin ie his father, but hardly his mother's full name. This certificate would be interesting to see.
Who gave this information?. Unless his employers made more effort to find his family than they did to find him (on Thursday Island).
Otherwise, I suspect that the appearance of George certainly, and Henry possibly, is just the movement of adventurous men to the colonies, and independent of the BLAIRs being there.
I do not see Georgina's maiden name ( that is to say "family name" of BLAIR) on the death index record.
I see her name as the mother --Georgina Lorimer-- (2 given names) BAMBER (family name).
This does not seem an unusual item of record keeping in his particular occupation. "What are your parents' full names?"
One thing I'm thrilled about is they kept in touch.
Thanks.♥
By the time Henry Gordon arrived in Australia, 1911, both Gordon and Julia were dead.
So, I feel unsure about anybody being in touch with anybody.
Sue
-
I suspect H G BAMBER was a committed seafarer, for I think I have found him as a 3rd Mate as early as 1908. The mariners website is an ongoing project of volunteers typing up passenger and crew lists from the images on the reels held by NSW State Archives. There may be earlier lists available for transcribing.
http://marinersandships.com.au/
H G BAMBER, 3rd Mate aged 26, of Liverpool on Hyson (home port of Liverpool) ,
Glasgow to Sydney 2 May 1908
http://marinersandships.com.au/1908/05/media/006hys.jpg
Brisbane to Sydney 18 May 1908.
http://marinersandships.com.au/1908/05/media/097hys.jpg
Trove seems to be having some hiccups at present, but I think it is showing that Hyson came via Albany in Western Australia, arriving there 12 April 1908.
Perhaps H G BAMBER’s personal details were including in his Mates Ticket and associated paperwork.
JM
-
Mmm...
We must remember the 1911 immigration record for Henry Gordon gives only "Australia" as his intended place of future residence.
I have not seen Henry Gordon on Electoral Rolls in QLD
The fact that his death is registered in QLD is of course because it was in that state he was lost from the "Taiyuan"
Reminder too ;D. Thursday Island is at least 2000 kilometres from Ipswich where the Gordon BLAIR had once lived, 20 or so years previously.
By the way, it seems the "Taiyuan" went on to smash into rocks later on that voyage and was out of commission for a time.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/225213012
Of possible interest to you Ozscot, there is some census information suggesting Georgina and Paterson BAMBER had 12 children ;D
Not all survived to adulthood.
I agree that Henry was a professional seafarer and this sighting of possibly brother George suggests early visits to Australia for him too.
"KAROOLA" Of Melbourne
From Port of Fremantle via ports to Sydney, NSW
28th NOV 1910
CREW
BAMBER GEO. 1st G. Steward
Aged 22
Of LIVERPOOL
Sue
-
Here's the Bamber family in 1891, Cluney St, West Derby, RG12, 2979/33
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:731L-TW2
The head of the household was a Dock labourer, and their eldest son (William) was a Steward on Steamships.
JM
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Well here's a turn up.!!! They somehow got my email regarding Jane Norval/Blair.???
I've been contacted by the NHS Greater Glasgow and Clyde Archive.▼
Thanks for your message. I can confirm that we hold records from Belvidere: for the period you are interested in there are no case notes but may be entries in registers.
Owing to an increasing volume of enquiries, we are no longer able to undertake research in relation to biographical enquiries like this one. The relevant records are available for inspection and you are welcome to come in person or to hire a professional search agent to do the work for you.
We share a room with Glasgow City Archives on Level 5 of the Mitchell Library at Charing Cross. We are usually open Wednesday to Friday but are sometimes unable to open due to staff shortages. So it may be prudent to contact us in advance before making a research visit.
Regards
Alistair
A G Tough, Archivist
0141 287 2883 (Wednesday to Friday)
*** Anyone nearby?
-
An arrival.
1911
H G BAMBER. Aged 31. Mariner. Born England. Intending permanently to live in Aust.
Ship, Runic. Departing Liverpool. To Sydney.
The attestation papers for George BAMBER show his mother's address as
17 Sylvania Road, ? ? , Liverpool, England.
His father was Mr P BAMBER.
Sue
Yes Sue that was George's arrival for sure.!
1911 Census of his parents Paterson Bamber 60 - Freight Clerk. Georgina Bamber 59 - Wife
42yrs married 12 children 7 alive 5 dead
Address: 17 Sylvania Road, Walton, Liverpool.
-
I suspect H G BAMBER was a committed seafarer, for I think I have found him as a 3rd Mate as early as 1908. The mariners website is an ongoing project of volunteers typing up passenger and crew lists from the images on the reels held by NSW State Archives. There may be earlier lists available for transcribing.
http://marinersandships.com.au/
H G BAMBER, 3rd Mate aged 26, of Liverpool on Hyson (home port of Liverpool) ,
Glasgow to Sydney 2 May 1908
http://marinersandships.com.au/1908/05/media/006hys.jpg
Brisbane to Sydney 18 May 1908.
http://marinersandships.com.au/1908/05/media/097hys.jpg
Trove seems to be having some hiccups at present, but I think it is showing that Hyson came via Albany in Western Australia, arriving there 12 April 1908.
Perhaps H G BAMBER’s personal details were including in his Mates Ticket and associated paperwork.
JM
Yes JM he became a Master of Foreign Going Ships in 1906 and had 1st & 2nd mate Certificates.
He was 5' 4" with blue eyes
I found them on Ancestry trees.
-
Here's the Bamber family in 1891, Cluney St, West Derby, RG12, 2979/33
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:731L-TW2
The head of the household was a Dock labourer, and their eldest son (William) was a Steward on Steamships.
JM
You have to admire Paterson Janverin Bamber.
He and his family must have gone through some tough times: +/- 1881 : 1891 +/-
1871 - Shipping Clerk
1881 - Commercial Clerk - Unemployed
1891 - Dock Labourer
1911 - Freight Clerk
-
1871 - Shipping Clerk
1881 - Commercial Clerk - Unemployed
1891 - Dock Labourer
1911 - Freight Clerk
I wonder where he was & what he was doing in 1901?
I've been contacted by the NHS Greater Glasgow and Clyde Archive.▼
Owing to an increasing volume of enquiries, we are no longer able to undertake research in relation to biographical enquiries like this one. The relevant records are available for inspection and you are welcome to come in person or to hire a professional search agent to do the work for you.
We share a room with Glasgow City Archives on Level 5 of the Mitchell Library at Charing Cross. We are usually open Wednesday to Friday but are sometimes unable to open due to staff shortages.
A G Tough, Archivist
0141 287 2883 (Wednesday to Friday)
*** Anyone nearby?
Hi OZS,
It may be worth opening another thread to request a 'look-up' for this info?
It's not a lot to ask in terms & people are really good where they can help!
As long as you can quote all details you know, you may even need to contact the Mitchell Library to ask for a 'Reference' for the info. to help anyone willing to do a search for you as all info. you have would be very helpful to save time as it will need to be pre-arranged prior to their visit so that the info. is available on their specific date.
Annie
-
1874 Glasgow Registry of Parliamentary Voters
Paterson BAMBER, 3 Corunna St, Customs Surveyor, tenant and occupant. (Same address as on the 1868 marriage certificate)
1871, same details except occupation: Customs Officer
1869-70, same, Custom Officer
1868 Paterson BAMBER married,
1871 Paterson BAMBER was a shipping clerk, on the English Census with Georgina, his wife, at West Derby...
(So seems perhaps TWO Paterson BAMBER chaps .... one in Scotland, and one in England ... Father and Son :D )
Re Mercantile Clerk v Customs Clerk
:) Mercantile Clerk for occupation of Georgina's Dad when she married in 1868 in Scotland .... v Customs Clerk for Gordon BLAIR in Ipswich, Queensland in 1865.... As Georgina's Paterson BAMBER's (her father in law) occupation was Customs Surveyor, perhaps "Mercantile Clerk" was a convenient way for Georgina at 16 years of age to describe her Dad.
A Queensland Customs Clerk in the 1860s was a colonial government appointment, and Gordon's express responsibilities would have included charge of the locked powder magazine ... surely any gunpowder storeroom was kept under close supervision, any gunpowder issued would have needed to be well documented, weighed out precisely, careful handling, packaging etc, a 'hands-on' position. Customs at Ipswich would have been involved in assessing any DUTY for imports from other colonies, particularly New South Wales and New Zealand, and of course EXCISE on alcohol etc.
A Mercantile Clerk (in 1860s Qld) would likely be a commercial appointment in the private sector, not a government position.
Re the 1868 marriage
The image shows no mention of if Georgina's dad and/or mum was/were already known to be deceased ....
:) Was it a compulsory question asked by the clergy at that time?
Remember that earlier in this thread there's the 1861 Scottish census showing Jane NORVAL with Georgina and Jane was recorded as a widow
Re Joining dots
I am still having trouble joining dots for Gordon BLAIR in Qld being the husband of Jane NORVAL in Scotland, but regardless, I cannot see that Georgina sought out the Blair family in Qld, or that James William BLAIR sought out Georgina's family when he went to England, as I have not yet found any likely newspaper cuttings re "Missing Friends" or "Missing Relatives" .... or similar.
Re 1901
And, answering Rosinish's question, I think in 1901, Paterson Bamber, husband of Georgina was recorded as a Dock Freight Clerk. :)
Re Asking for further help
Excellent suggestion re asking for specific help. May I suggest similar request on the Australia Board may find RChatter willing to go to Qld State Archives to look up Gordon BLAIR's land file of 1864 and even look up the Probate Files for Gordon and Julia.
JM
ADD : I was posting this around same time as the 're-boot' was kicking in, and some of my sentences got 'mish-mashed' during my copy/paste from a word document, but I have subsequently edited. 11:40am NSW time 24 April 2017.
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I have gleaned an image of a 1874 marriage, Glasgow. Ref 644/10 0347) Charles TAYLOR and Jane Drummond NORVAL attached to an Ancestry SUBMITTED tree, which is also showing that Gordon BLAIR as the chap who died in Queensland in 1900.
Jane Drummond Schawbe signed aged 25,
of 113 Hospital St Glasgow, a Spinster,
father : Henry Schawbe, Ship owner, (deceased) reputed father
mother: Jane J Norval, formerly House Keeper afterwards Wife of Gordon Blair, Law Clerk.
Similar info on Jane TAYLOR’s 1911 dc., Jane NORVALL, and Gordon BLAIR were NOT noted as deceased, although Henry SCHAWBE was.
May I please suggest our OP contacts the tree owner and asks for further info to show why/how their research has any connection to Gordon BLAIR in Qld... :) I am happy to provide pdf of Isabella BLAIR's Qld birth cert if any 'new' documents are needed for any 'swap' of official documents.
JM
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I think we have ascertained beyond doubt now that the Gordon Blair in Queensland is the same one that was in the 1841 census in St Ninians, Stirling. Is he the same person that married Jane Norval in 1850? Not sure we will ever prove that conclusively and 'join the dots' However-
He is the only Gordon Blair to appear in the Scottish records in that period apart from Aeneas Gordon Blair who we have discounted.
He was born in Stirlingshire, as was the husband of Jane Norval per 1851 census.
He worked in the legal profession and Queensland Gordon claimed to have worked extensively in that field.
He disappeared from Scotland just prior to popping up in Australia ( no death found in U.K. Records).
He appears to have delayed marrying in Australia despite having several children.
If he is not the Gordon Blair who was married to Jane Norval, where was he in 1851 and where was Jane's husband in 1841?
Isobel
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Sorry, but I have not actually found any Queensland documents showing Gordon claiming to have extensive work experience in the legal field.
I agree it is very likely that is him in 1841, but have we actually confirmed he was the chap noted as James Gordon or Gordon BLAIR fathering Jane/Janet's boys in 1853 and later and the chap who married Jane Norval?
The ship that he came to Australia left from Plymouth a week after the 1861 census .... have we sighted him there, he may have been gone from Glasgow when his mum et al left in the mid 1850s?
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X1HH-ZMK
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:F79D-72Y
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:VQQF-83X
And the 1861 census with Jane as a widow?
Sorry, but I have not ever joined dots by using the negative response and I am still not sure that it is accepted practice in family history researching... If he is not the Gordon Blair who was married to Jane Norval, where was he in 1851 and where was Jane's husband in 1841?
Isobel
I don't understand why anyone would rely on info found on Ancestry trees, there's been many a thread about the hazards involved. But I do support the OP seeking the tree owners to find out if they know of any connection between the Blair family in Qld and the Bamber family in Lancs. Work back, one step at a time, don't jump generations, find the official records, seek out primary sources .... perhaps I am old fashioned, but if preparing information to give to a lady aged in her 80s then surely it needs to be accurate, and supported by independent sources. To me, I reiterate, it does not matter what a person records on their own personal tree, but when preparing information to provide to someone else, pro bono or otherwise, it needs to be accurate, or there's no benefit in the gift.
JM
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Even if we can't ever prove the link, we have provided a lot of additional information regarding the Gordon Blair in Australia e.g. regarding his sisters and their families. Not sure where you have found the proof that his mother left Scotland in the 1850's?
Isobel
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majm posted - There is a Gordon BLAIR in Ipswich,Qld in the 1860s who is NOT working in a lawyers office. Please see my earlier reply giving live links to newspaper cutting.
From an obituary in the Queensland Times Ipswich Herald and General Advertiser 25/8/1900 -
Gordon Blair was born in Scotland. He arrived in Australia almost 40 years ago and during nearly all of that time resided in Ipswich. He first entered the office of Hon Arthur McAllister, that gentleman at the time practising his profession as a solicitor in Ipswich. Mr Blair's somewhat extensive legal knowledge acquired in the old country served him in good stead in his fresh sphere of duty. It was in connection with her Majesty's Customs that deceased gentleman was best known. His first appointment with the government of Queensland dated from 8th May 1865.
Isobel
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I agree, the public record is not likely to tell us whether the Gordon BLAIR in Australia was previously married to NORVAL or otherwise.
The illustrious son, James [EDIT to correct this forename] William, who probably supplied the biographical notes for the obituary.
and may even have exaggerated the man's "legal knowledge" credentials as well as whatever other aspects he selected to highlight.
After all, he was a highly credible citizen ;D
IF, he was the Gordon of the NORVAL marriage, it is fairly clear his extended family in Australia- mother and sisters- must have known of the earlier marriage, but perhaps Gordon's children did not.
However it has been an interesting challenge to dig out the information the team has found about Gordon BLAIR.
Sue
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Jane Norval / Blair may have claimed in 1861 to be a widow as a façade of respectability or to obtain lodgings. She may have lied about her marital status to the woman she lodged with , She may have known Gordon had left Scotland for Australia forever and decided she was as good as a widow.
All supposition ...we will never know.
However if her husband Gordon Blair died in Scotland between 1857 and 1861 there is no register of his death , and there should be.
Re- The Mercantile Clerk as Gordon Blair's occupation on Georgina Blair's 1868 marriage cert - I wondered if that occupation came from Georgina's knowledge of what her father had done in Scotland rather than his occupation in Australia. A Mercantile Clerk would be employed by a shipping merchant perhaps? Which Henry Schwabe appears to have been? All supposition :P ;D
The fact the both Gordon Blair and Jane Norval are not recorded as deceased on this certificate means that Georgina did not declare them to be deceased. She should have been asked the question. However she may not have known for sure whether either was dead or alive.
I wish we could find Jane Norval / Blair after 1861 ::)
Looby :)
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A question ;D
In the BLAIR to BAMBER marriage both parties were about 17 years old.
In Australia someone would need to give permission for such young people to marry and this would be recorded on the certificate.
Was this not an expectation in the Scotland of the time?
Sue
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Hi Sue,
https://www.nrscotland.gov.uk/registration/getting-married-in-scotland/minimum-age-for-marriage-in-scotland
Many people have been known to arrive from England & other places to marry in Gretna Green (Scotland) for this reason.
Annie
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On the 1882 Qld dc for Jane BLAIR, a dau of John BLAIR and Jane DUN, the informant (grandson William KIPPEN of Ipswich) has provided info that Jane was born Glasgow, and was about 36 years in Queensland. She had married William BLAIR in Glasgow at 18 years of age, and she had three children living, Jane 36 years, Elizabeth 33 years and Gordon 30 years.
Here is a Jane BLAIR arriving to Moreton Bay in the 1850s.
http://indexes.records.nsw.gov.au/ebook/list.aspx?series=NRS5316&item=4_4791&ship=William%20Miles page 12
SINGLE FEMALES
Jane BLAIR, 33, House Servant, Stirlingshire, Presb (Presbyterian), Both (Read and Write).
Please note on that voyage, that there’s also the KIPPER (ie KIPPEN) as in Jane, sister of Gordon BLAIR, and her family, listed at page 3 and the AITKEN (ie AIKEN) family listed at page 2, as in Elizabeth, sister of Gordon BLAIR, and her family.
I recall several discussions from earlier on this thread about this/these details for the BLAIR family.
Earlier today, my husband and I spent some time with two older relatives, aged in their 90s, who while physically needing some assistance, continue to be actively alert in their thinking. I gently asked them what expectations they would place on a short report on their own ancestors .... I asked how many generations back would they want someone to research, and what depth, including if they would want 'warts and all'.
They are both former NSW BDM senior officers, and so have open minds about the validity of info on informant driven certificates. Both served in the 2nd AIF during WWII and in the Occupation forces in Japan.
But, in general terms, they would expect to hear about the generation earlier than their grandparents because while they knew their grandparents, they only know of their great grand's. They would expect to learn about the last generation prior to migration to Australia, and all the warts and all about every generation up to their Grandparents in Australia. From their grandparents to their own generation and then beyond through to current youngest .... that's the responsibility of themselves to share. (May I note that both chaps do share, and are actively part of my 'phone a rellie' for help in responding to many RChatters on the Australia Board).
I hope their views are useful to our OP in determining how to and what to communicate about Gordon BLAIR and Julia DROUGHTON, the parents of Henry Gordon, who married Margaret JONES, and included among Henry Gordon and Margaret's children was Isabella, whose Qld death registration has not yet been located, but whom is confirmed by our OP as deceased, and whose registration should be displayed at Qld BDM index as it occurred much more than 30 years ago.
JM
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As an aside,
I wonder
:) where Jane NORVAL's daughter by Henry SCHAWBE, ship owner, was in 1851, was she with Gordon, Jane, and her half-sister, new baby Georgina?
JM
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Hi Sue,
https://www.nrscotland.gov.uk/registration/getting-married-in-scotland/minimum-age-for-marriage-in-scotland
Many people have been known to arrive from England & other places to marry in Gretna Green (Scotland) for this reason.
Annie
Well, How interesting. Thanks ;D
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As an aside,
I wonder
:) where Jane NORVAL's daughter by Henry SCHAWBE, ship owner, was in 1851, was she with Gordon, Jane, and her half-sister, new baby Georgina?
JM
Jane was brought up by William and Janet Drummond nee McKay in Glasgow and is with them in 1851 ( transcribed as Jane Stholmie, visitor, on Ancestry) through 1871 where she appears as Jane Drummond, daughter.
Isobel
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Hi Sue,
https://www.nrscotland.gov.uk/registration/getting-married-in-scotland/minimum-age-for-marriage-in-scotland
Many people have been known to arrive from England & other places to marry in Gretna Green (Scotland) for this reason.
Annie
Well, How interesting. Thanks ;D
16 -old enough to marry.... but not to drink, drive or vote in a general election . (Although recent changes in the voting age in Scotland lowered it to 16 for local elections and the Referendum )....but I digress.
The marriage between the 17 year old couple Georgina and Paterson was witnessed according to the record by Paterson Bamber's parents Paterson snr and Louisa Catherine Bamber. With both the groom's parents acting as witnesses it makes me wonder if the bride's mother was there ?
Georgina has knocked a year off her age and consistently sticks with that throughout the Censuses. Perhaps she was not aware of her correct DOB?
Her address at the time of the marriage is a bit of a scrawl....but I think it might say 20 Candleriggs, Glasgow.
Looby :)
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Her address at the time of the marriage is a bit of a scrawl....but I think it might say 20 Candleriggs, Glasgow.
Looby :)
The address show for BAMBER on the certificate 3 Corunna Street seems only about a mile from 20 Candleriggs, if your reading is correct.
Sue
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Her address at the time of the marriage is a bit of a scrawl....but I think it might say 20 Candleriggs, Glasgow.
Looby :)
The address show for BAMBER on the certificate 3 Corunna Street seems only about a mile from 20 Candleriggs, if your reading is correct.
Sue
Ahhh I couldn't make Bamber's address out but I believe you are correct, Sue.
I could be wrong (I'm no expert on Glaswegian housing at that period) but I think that 3 Corunna Street would be quite an affluent address in 1868.
Looby :)
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;)
I got it from Reply #352 by JM. ;)
Sue
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;)
I got it from Reply #352 by JM. ;)
Sue
Apologies to JM. I didn't notice that.
There is so much info on this thread it's hard to keep track.....and yet it's fascinating !
After saying that I though 3 Corunna Street would be a fairly affluent address - I now find that 20 Candleriggs (which I think was Georgina's address) was the location of a Great Western Cooking Depot ( a soup kitchen ??) and the Bakers' House of Call (no clue ??? ....a trade house ?? ).
Looby :)
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Hi Looby, no apologies needed, this very long thread can definitely be hard to keep track of, and yes, it is definitely fascinating.
Very early in the quest, I read a biographical piece about Sir James William BLAIR, the youngest of Gordon and Julia's children. In it there's mention of the gossip about Sir James, and the word used in reference to his character was venality. That's not a pleasant word, but to associate it with a Justice of the Qld Court system in an era before the Bjlke-Petersen reign simply 'floored me'.
Here's the bio I read about Sir James attached as a 3 Meg pdf *** NOPE, cannot attach, too big
Here's a bio about Sir Joh https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joh_Bjelke-Petersen
*** search google for J.C.H. Gill M.B.E., B.A., LLB., F.R. HIST. S.Q. and "A Brief Account of the Life and Times of The Honourable Sir James William Blair, K.C.M.G. Chief Justice of Queensland." The 25 page pdf is fully referenced, which to me suggests it has been peer reviewed.
JM
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Looby, anent this "House of Call" the Incorporation of Bakers owned a building at the head of the Candleriggs for storing wheat.
Corunna Street was at Kelvingrove.
Skoosh.
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"..Jane was brought up by William and Janet Drummond nee McKay in Glasgow and is with them in 1851 ( transcribed as Jane Stholmie, visitor, on Ancestry) through 1871 where she appears as Jane Drummond, daughter."
Isobel, I am having trouble locating these census entries. Can you please direct me to them using names, ages, addresses, birthplace, rather than folio, page etc
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After saying that I though 3 Corunna Street would be a fairly affluent address - I now find that 20 Candleriggs (which I think was Georgina's address) was the location of a Great Western Cooking Depot ( a soup kitchen ??) and the Bakers' House of Call (no clue ??? ....a trade house ?? ).
I have 3 Corunna Street in my tree. It was the home of Archibald Logan, general practitioner MD Glasgow University, in 1881 and 1891, and of his mother Agnes Wotherspoon or Logan or Peden, who died there in 1890. Archibald died there in 1894, but his unmarried aunt Jane Wotherspoon lived there (she was described as a visitor in 1891) until her death in 1916. These Wotherspoons were not an affluent family.
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After saying that I though 3 Corunna Street would be a fairly affluent address - I now find that 20 Candleriggs (which I think was Georgina's address) was the location of a Great Western Cooking Depot ( a soup kitchen ??) and the Bakers' House of Call (no clue ??? ....a trade house ?? ).
I have 3 Corunna Street in my tree. It was the home of Archibald Logan, general practitioner MD Glasgow University, in 1881 and 1891, and of his mother Agnes Wotherspoon or Logan or Peden, who died there in 1890. Archibald died there in 1894, but his unmarried aunt Jane Wotherspoon lived there (she was described as a visitor in 1891) until her death in 1916. These Wotherspoons were not an affluent family.
Thanks Forfarian for that background. ;D
Looks like I'm wrong - not like me ! :P Although perhaps affluent was the wrong word to use. Maybe I should have said slightly better off than many other Glaswegians ?
Looking at images of Corruna Street, I thought the buildings looked a cut above the average Glasgow tenement.
Paterson Bamber, Customs officer's neighbours in 1868 included 2 surgeons, a teacher, a Reverend, a Captain, a smith ( no clue if that's a gold/tin/blacksmith ) , so I assumed the people of Corunna Street at this time were slightly higher on the social scale than the boarding room ladies the thread was earlier equating Jane Norval/Blair, Georgina's mother with. Am I wrong in thinking that?
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Wivenhoe - not surprised you are having problems. The transcriptions vary wildly between Ancestry and FindMyPast.
Using FindMyPast
1871 113 Hospital Street, Govan, Glasgow ( address on Jane's marriage certificate)
Janet Drummond, head, married 49 born Cambuslang
Jane Drummond, daughter 21 born Glasgow
William Drummond, son 20 born Glasgow
John Drummond, son 18 born Glasgow
Gavin Drummond, son 16 born Glasgow
Janet Drummond, daughter 10 born Glasgow
Jane McKay, boarder 45 born Rutherglen
1861 St Andrews Sq, Calton, Glasgow
M Drumond (f) head, widow, 36 born Cambuslang
William Drumond, son 16 ( shows as 10 on Ancestry) born Lanarkshire
John Drumond , son 8 born Lanarkshire
Gavin Drumond , son 6 born Lanarkshire
Robt Drumond, son 2 born Lanarkshire
Jean S?abie, boarder 8 born Lanarkshire ( Jean Shdabie on Ancestry/ Shrabie on Speople)
Josiah Niven, boarder age 12 born Lanarkshire
Jean McKay, sister age 20 born Lanarkshire
1851 2 William Street, Calton, Glasgow
William Drummond, Head, married 38, machine maker born Glasgow
Janet Drummond, wife, 29 born Glasgow
John Drummond , son 0, born Glasgow
William Drummond, brother 28, Plumber, born Glasgow
Elezabeth McKay, servant 27 born Glasgow
Jane McKean, visitor, 25 born Glasgow
Jane Sthornlie, visitor, 2 born Glasgow (Sthomlie on Ancestry)
Isobel
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Jane Sthornlie=Tolmie?
The terraces in Corunna Street would have had servants, it's still a bit swanky, Finnieston is now the place to live in the west-end!
Skoosh.
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*** search google for J.C.H. Gill M.B.E., B.A., LLB., F.R. HIST. S.Q. and "A Brief Account of the Life and Times of The Honourable Sir James William Blair, K.C.M.G. Chief Justice of Queensland." The 25 page pdf is fully referenced, which to me suggests it has been peer reviewed.
JM
Couldn't find that at all JM. My search engine would not spit out that pdf file :-\
Venality is certainly a strong term to use in a bio.
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Improved scan of 1855 birth for Jane Blair -
NB all the informants signatures on the page are witnessed either by the Registrar or by his clerk on his behalf.
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Improved scan of 1855 birth for Jane Blair -
NB all the informants signatures on the page are witnessed either by the Registrar or by his clerk on his behalf.
Was that the document we thought there was another address listed for Gordon, Isobel?
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Yes - but sadly it was just a witness signature. Now clear, however, that Jane was indeed her 4th child.
Isobel
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Yes - but sadly it was just a witness signature. Now clear, however, that Jane was indeed her 4th child.
Isobel
Which is not true :o
If the rest of the information provided is to be believed, Jane would have been her 5th child.
1. Jane Schwabe /Norval Drummond.
2. Georgina Lorimer Blair
3 . + 4. 2 Deceased (and probably unnamed boys).
5. Jane born 1855
Looks like Jane wiped first baby daughter Jane from her calculations.
Looby :)
Added. SP made a great job of enhancing that image Isobel !
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One of the deceased boys was a James Gordon Blair born 1853. The other appears to be unnamed.
Yes - very impressed with the re- scan.
Isobel
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Looks like I'm wrong - not like me ! :P Although perhaps affluent was the wrong word to use. Maybe I should have said slightly better off than many other Glaswegians ?
Don't forget that in some places where there were tenements, the poorest tenants would be on the top floor, where the rent would be cheapest, and the more affluent ones on the first floor. Just because these Wotherspoons weren't an affluent family doesn't mean that all the occupants of the tenement were in similar circumstances.
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The FreeCEN transcription of Jane's surname in 1851 is HHONILIE !
Jane D Norval or Schawbe, 61, died in Hutchesontown in 1911. (Apologies if someone has already posted this!)
So (a) it looks as if Jane Schawbe never married, yet we know that she did marry Charles Taylor in 1874 and (b) the fact that her death is registered under her mother's surname as well as her father's might imply that she was illegitimate.
In passing, I have wondered about that surname. 'Schawbe' looks wrong, somehow. 'Schwabe' would make more sense, being the German for 'Swabian' and there are several Schwabes in both the 1841 and 1851 censuses.
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In passing, I have wondered about that surname. 'Schawbe' looks wrong, somehow. 'Schwabe' would make more sense, being the German for 'Swabian' and there are several Schwabes in both the 1841 and 1851 censuses.
Yes I think that is a misspelling. Henry Schwabe was as reputed father but as you say Forfarian there are several Schwabes of German ancestry on the 1841 and 1851 Census.
I have already speculated about Herman Schwabe recorded as a Merchant shipper in Ayr on the 1851 and as Hermaan Schwaber , Merchant on the 1841.
Looby
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Jane Sthornlie=Tolmie?
The terraces in Corunna Street would have had servants, it's still a bit swanky, Finnieston is now the place to live in the west-end!
Skoosh.
I've never been on Corunna Street , to my knowledge, but must admit from the images I thought they looked at bit posher.
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There are four entries for jane's death in 1911 on SP.
Jane Drummond Blair
Jane Drummond Taylor
Jane D Schawbe
Jane D Norvall
The original can be viewed on a tree on Ancestry and confirms parents as Henry Schawbe, ship owner (deceased) and Jane Norvall, Housekeeper, subsequently married to Gordon Blair, Law Clerk. Informant was her husband Charles Taylor.
From the wording of the parental info on both marriage and death certificates it would seem that Jane was illegitimate.
There were several Schwabe families in Glasgow in the 1850's but there is only one Schawbe ref on SP other than two entries (marriage and death) pertaining to Jane Drummond Schawbe. The other ref is for Ludolp Schawbe in the 1855 valuation roll but he appears as Schwabe in 1851 census.
There is a Henry Schwabe who marries in Liverpool in 1851, who is described variously as a merchant and ship owner. He went bankrupt in 1857 and died in Scarborough in 1861, his wife having predeceased him in 1857.
Isobel
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F.F, I think you're confusing Glasgow tenements with those in 18th century Edinburgh, Old Town. If you have a nice building with a tiled close, inside toilet/bathroom & well looked-after back court, the flats will all have the same amenities & beyond the means of most working folk. There would be a rent difference depending on the size of flat but doctors & dustmen didn't share the same street never mind close! A top floor flat was sought after whatever the close, nobody above you & the ground floor the least popular as everybody traipsed through it plus street noise. Brought up in a room & kitchen myself, middle-class folk were on another planet! ;D
Skoosh.
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Just looking back over notes and realised that I have inadvertantly downloaded the death certificate for Jane Norval's mother Jane Norval nee Baird while searching for the death cert of Jane herself ( without success) Her mother died on 8th July 1865 at 24 Lilybank Street, Glasgow age 69. She was the widow of John Norval, Comb Maker and her parents were James Baird, Tailor (dec) and Agnes Baird nee Brown ( dec). Informant was her son in law Thomas Scott of 2 Athole Terrace, Victoria Road, Glasgow. Thomas appears to have been married to Jane's sister Agnes and she also died in 1865. Thomas was a Draper's Assistant in 1851 and a Warehouseman in later census.
Isobel
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*** search google for J.C.H. Gill M.B.E., B.A., LLB., F.R. HIST. S.Q. and "A Brief Account of the Life and Times of The Honourable Sir James William Blair, K.C.M.G. Chief Justice of Queensland." The 25 page pdf is fully referenced, which to me suggests it has been peer reviewed.
JM
Couldn't find that at all JM. My search engine would not spit out that pdf file :-\
Venality is certainly a strong term to use in a bio.
Hopefully this shrunk link will work. But/Also/In case of ;D :-X :) .... I am attaching a snip of the paragraph using that word. The pdf is 25 pages, numbered 80 to 104, as it is part of a journal. So, the snip is of the first paragraph at page 100. The endnote reference no. is 54.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01jzs/
JM
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Although we have meandered far and near from the original query about Gordon it all remains very intriguing indeed.
I have nothing to offer right now, but am amazed by the wonderful local knowledge that has been applied to the matter by the team in Scotland and England and of course here in Australia ;D
I do wonder about Georgina's name. Georgina being the feminine of George and Lorimer.
Is there something in this naming?
We seem not to have come across a George or a Lorimer in our searches so far.
Sue
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Improved scan of 1855 birth for Jane Blair -
NB all the informants signatures on the page are witnessed either by the Registrar or by his clerk on his behalf.
DOTS MAY BE JOINING UP
Are we certain that Gordon signed this document? If so, please look at the unusual way this Gordon has written the 'd' in his name.
Please compare with the snip from Isabella's birth registration in Queensland as per my earlier reply.
JM
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Reply #206 for snip from Isabella's bc. :)
JM
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Enlarged snip from 1855 scan ....
JM
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I do wonder about Georgina's name. Georgina being the feminine of George and Lorimer.
Is there something in this naming?
We seem not to have come across a George or a Lorimer in our searches so far.
Sue
I did wonder about that too!
A very strange combination indeed, makes one wonder ???
In 'normal' terms this would indicate the father being a George Lorimer or at least an incline towards a George....intriguing for sure.
I wonder if there was ever any application for Parish Relief for any of the children born prior to the 1850 marriage?
Annie
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I have been away and the Blair hive has been exceptionally busy and much appreciated.
Some amazing people out there with great information. Thanks again.
JM I contacted that Ancestry person on the 4th April before posting here ... no reply as yet
so unlikely.
No word back from the 2 churches I contacted as yet either. I don't want to push them too
hard but I may ring down the track at some stage as I think they may have a few hidden gems.
I was contacted by that lady's daughter the other day through the usual way and she wanted
to know whatever happened to her Grandmother's brother who was gassed in France in WW1
and came home very sick and was looked after always at home.
Well I did some digging with an extraordinary result.
He never went to WW1. ??? :o
He joined the army to go and was medically fit but needed some dental work was all.
After a little over a months training here, he just walked out. First thing I noticed was in large
writing on his record he was marked a DESERTER. A warrant was issued for his arrest.
A bit more paperwork and evidence in his record of leaving AWOL but no record of his penalty.
More evidence of stories to protect people and for young ears not to find out.
Every family usually have them one way or the other. Family secrets.
'Don't say anything to the children their too young'. Correct.
One of my favourite of many favorite Uncle's I found out was actually my Cousin. :o
Quite a shock when I found out when doing the Ancestry. Then found out how it came
about ... All good. He'll always be my Uncle.
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....
No word back from the 2 churches I contacted as yet either. I don't want to push them too
hard but I may ring down the track at some stage as I think they may have a few hidden gems.
I was contacted by that lady's daughter the other day through the usual way and she wanted
to know whatever happened to her Grandmother's brother who was gassed in France in WW1
and came home very sick and was looked after always at home.
Well I did some digging with an extraordinary result.
He never went to WW1. ??? :o
He joined the army to go and was medically fit but needed some dental work was all.
After a little over a months training here, he just walked out. First thing I noticed was in large
writing on his record he was marked a DESERTER. A warrant was issued for his arrest.
A bit more paperwork and evidence in his record of leaving AWOL but no record of his penalty.
The Churches can often take weeks as the request is usually handled by a volunteer.
You mention Isabella had a brother who went AWOL after a month's training after enlisting in AIF in WWI .... I am further fascinated .... as I thought Henry Gordon BLAIR's sons were born 1908 and 1915 - too young for WWI....
JM
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Isabella's mother JM
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Agh thanks, so Henry Gordon BLAIR's brother in law.
JM
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Reply #206 for snip from Isabella's bc. :)
JM
In my opinion the signature on the rescan of 1855 & your snip on reply #206 are a definite match!
On the 1855 rescan, the writing below 'GorDon Blair' Father looks like ? Montieth Street, ?????
I can't make out the number or the area.
Annie
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Thanks Annie :) :) :) I think they are both from same hand too.
Hopefully shows the benefit of seeking out clear primary sources, many thanks to Isobelw for that re-scan. Team Work :)
JM
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So JM,
Although the signature is a match I do wonder as to the place of birth being Thistle St. (Street), Glasgow (which it looks like) & the fact that the father 'GorDon' is at a different abode.
I don't know what info. is recorded 'as in' who was present at the birth etc. or who lived at Thistle Street but does make me wonder if they were already separated at that time?
Annie
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So JM,
Although the signature is a match I do wonder as to the place of birth being Thistle St. (Street), Glasgow (which it looks like) & the fact that the father 'GorDon' is at a different abode.
I don't know what info. is recorded 'as in' who was present at the birth etc. or who lived at Thistle Street but does make me wonder if they were already separated at that time?
Annie
Hi Annie and JM,
I agree that the distinctive D in Gordon on both documents looks like the same hand has signed them.
Annie, I don't think that is a different address for Gordon. I believe that below his signature it reads A Monteith Clerk Witnefs ?......
Lobby :)
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The bit below the signature is the signature of A Monteith who was the clerk witnessing it ( so definitely Gordon's signature). Other entries on the page are witnessed by the same person. Well done JM for spotting the definite similarity. I was a bit dubious about proving through signatures, but that 'D' is so unusual it is a real pointer to both documents being completed by the same person.
Annie - I suddenly wondered about the Poor Law records as well. Maybe if someone was going to the Mitchell Library could have a look.
Isobel
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Now, umm.... who was Horatius and is there any family connection between him and Gordon Blair, Writer. ?
Glasgow 1857 Register of Electors Fifth Ward
Name :Horatius BLAIR,
Abode : Greenbank, Govan Road,
Occupation : WRITER,
Qualification to vote : Proprietor of houses,
Where situate : 155 Stockwell Street,
Agh, Annie, I had not noticed the different address, I had assumed one of those words read "Clerk". If they had separated, I wonder if some speculative theories are worth considering:
a) what if Gordon had no idea that Jane, his housekeeper had previous relationship with Henry and had by 1855 discovered her (oops .... 1849 daughter's) existence and so felt that there were at least theological impediments to his 1851 marriage
b) that Jane Drummond SCHWABE had learned of her mum's marriage to Gordon via Gordon or a member of his family, or perhaps the clergyman who conducted the 1851 ceremony striving to help him sort out his 1851 marriage status
c) what if Gordon was advised to leave Glasgow and so he followed his mum and sisters to Queensland
d) what if Gordon explained that failed marriage to his clergyman in Brisbane or Ipswich, and it was the determination of that independent congregation - perhaps after letters exchanged with clergyman in Glasgow, that Gordon's marital status was 'bachelor'.... and so the independent congregation in Ipswich decided Gordon and Julia were a married couple prior to the unification of those 12 independent Presbyterian congregations
e) what if the Queensland parliament's Marriage Act of 1865 did not cover the 'marriage' determination of that independent congregation and that flaw was overcome by the 1876 marriage ceremony which has the likely ages and occupations for Gordon and Julia from 1864ish
ALL speculation of course .... but in my own research of the history of marriage in NSW from 1788 on, I can assure you that there was still a hot topic of debate even forty years after civil registration of marriages commenced in NSW, and the debate centred around the differences between secular marriage requirements of NSW parliament and the ecclesiastical laws for the sanctity of marriage, and basically the statute definition of marriage. The practical problem stemmed from combining the two ceremonies into one, so that the clergy (any denomination) were required to be approved to conduct marriages in accordance with statute laws, and the details of the parties to the marriage would be recorded in civil registers by persons who were not of that denomination. :) I do not know if similar difficulties were faced in Queensland, but it took more than 40 years for NSW civil admin and the NSW churches to find a solution that worked.
RED POST, I will post anyway. :-X
JM
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It has crossed my mind to wonder whether perhaps Gordon Blair and Jane Norval's banns were called, but there was no actual marriage ceremony. Have we seen the original of the record of proclamation of banns? Does it actually say they were married?
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My transcription of a document on an Ancestry tree ::) ::) .
The tree owner labels this document OPR Marraiage, (sic)
Blair & Norval, 1850 and it was originally shared 13 April 2015
::)
07/06/2850 BLAIR, Gordon [O.P.R. Marriages 644/01 0430 0636 Glasgow ] and it seems to be a download from SP.
632 Glasgow 19th May 1850
(Sixth entry down the page as per JM’s count)
BLAIR Gordon Blair, Clerk in Glasgow & Jane Norval residing there, Married 7th June by Mr Alexander Wilson Free Church Minister in Glasgow
(Six more entries follow, not all include the date of the marriage ceremony, and this one seems to be the only one on that page for that clergyman. Other clergy include Dr Duncan McFarlan, Minister of Glasgow; Mr Alexander Wilson, United Presbyterian; Dr John Cadie, United Presbyterian; Mr David Russell, Independent Minister in Glasgow; )
JM
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Gordon Blair, Clerk in Glasgow & Jane Norval residing there, Married 7th June by Mr Alexander Wilson Free Church Minister in Glasgow
Oh, well, that disposes of the idea that there was no marriage ceremony. Back to the drawing board.
-
Original marriage entry for Gordon and Jane which I downloaded from SP a while back.
Isobel
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Reading JM's speculative theories has made me venture to post one of my own.
What if Gordon Blair in Scotland never was a Law Clerk or a Writer?
We have no proof he did either job. Only his occupation on birth/death certificates for his children and on some of them he becomes James Gordon Blair .
His occupation on his marriage to Jane Norval is simply Clerk.
His occupation on his daughter Georgina Lorimer Blair's marriage is Mercantile Clerk. Did her mother tell her that was her father's occupation ??
But....his wife's first daughter Jane Schwabe gives his occupation as Law Clerk on her marriage certificate. ::) ::)
I tend to think Gordon knew of Jane Norval's child to Henry Schwabe (still wonder about Herman :P) . He must have met Jane not long after the baby's birth. I have wondered if both worked for Schwabe - Jane as a housekeeper / maid. Gordon as a Clerk.
Jane Norval & Gordon Blair marry on June 7th 1850.
Georgina Lorimer Blair is born November 15th 1850. James Norval (Jane's brother perhaps?) and Thomas Scott , (Jane's sister's husband) are witnesses.
I too wonder where Georgina Lorimer Blair's name comes from. Sounds very much like she was named after a George Lorimer. Reputed father? Employer? Other relative? Good friend? We may never know.
I wonder how the Drummond family came to integrate Jane Schwabe/Norval into their family?
Was the "adoption" , obviously informal back then, arranged by Schwabe or Jane. Maybe the Church was involved. Certainly the Drummonds seem to have been well aware of Jane's reputed parentage and her mother's marriage to Gordon.
Goodness lot's of speculation. And still no death for Jane Norval/ Blair ;D
Looby
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I note there was a Free Church Minister in Barony, Glasgow at the time called Lorimer (John Gordon L). Just feasible that she was named for him, as Gordon and Jane seem to have had links to the Free Church ( married by a Free Church minister).
Isobel
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Reading JM's speculative theories has made me venture to post one of my own.
What if Gordon Blair in Scotland never was a Law Clerk or a Writer?
:) :) :) Excellent :) :) :) and chronologically, we don't actually learn that Henry was deceased until the 1874 marriage of Jane Drummond SCHWABE, so Henry, the ship owner, may have been in and out of Glasgow and may have sought out Jane NORVAL, and shown some 'proof' to Gordon that the 1851 marriage was negated or at least voidable. Henry may not have died until after (months/years, a decade or more ::)) Gordon married Jane NORVAL.
Now I am wondering about the reputed father v punitive father/s for Jane's sons . If Jane's public claims to be Mrs Gordon BLAIR (newspaper cutting posted earlier), were not challenged, then what was Scottish law...
You see, in NSW law at that time, a married woman's children were 'fathered' by her husband, regardless, unless she registered them and declined to provide the required information about her husband and their marriage. (So by extension, women could simply wear a wedding ring, attend a registry office and give their details and the details of their husband (fictional or otherwise), their marriage place/date, and register their baby. In NSW, this process was Informant driven, from 1856 to 1918ish without pre-printed forms for the informant's use, so oral questions posed by clerks in part time positions as deputy registrars. Pre 1856, no civil bdm process in NSW - researchers rely on parish registers for baptisms, burials, weddings.
What was Scottish law at that time - 1850s ? Would Jane's children be legally the children of her husband .... is that part of the reason for the father being nominated as James Gordon BLAIR ....
All speculations of course....
JM
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Annie, I don't think that is a different address for Gordon. I believe that below his signature it reads A Monteith Clerk Witnefs ?......
Lobby :)
Thanks Looby & Isobel,
Can see it now but I suppose with not having it in front of me (full size) it did make it a bit awkward, mystery solved now though ::)
Annie
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Now I am wondering about the reputed father v punitive father/s for Jane's sons . If Jane's public claims to be Mrs Gordon BLAIR (newspaper cutting posted earlier), were not challenged, then what was Scottish law...
You see, in NSW law at that time, a married woman's children were 'fathered' by her husband, regardless, unless she registered them and declined to provide the required information about her husband and their marriage. (So by extension, women could simply wear a wedding ring, attend a registry office and give their details and the details of their husband (fictional or otherwise), their marriage place/date, and register their baby. In NSW, this process was Informant driven, from 1856 to 1918ish without pre-printed forms for the informant's use, so oral questions posed by clerks in part time positions as deputy registrars.
What was Scottish law at that time - 1850s ? Would Jane's children be legally the children of her husband .... is that part of the reason for the father being nominated as James Gordon BLAIR ....
All speculations of course....
JM
JM,
Depending on where births were (area), people would be known by the Church i.e. if unmarried it would be common knowledge I would think for someone/anyone who had been a lifelong citizen?
However, depending on whether Parish Relief was sought by an unmarried women, she would be questioned as to who the father was etc.
This thread is now so long I don't recall if there was any other baptisms found other than the 2 girls or their marriages but the fact that 'Gordon' acquired 'James' is a total mystery & that was written by Jane herself?
I still wonder who the 3 other children were, their names, where born, were they baptised, was Parish Relief sought......
So many questions yet unanswered such as did Schwabe sign anything to state he was father or was his name used as a 'cover-up' as father post his death?
I think Looby's theory of Gordon & Henry Schwabe knowing each other/working together etc. is highly likely.
Those missing children are a mystery as is the death of Jane.
I wonder if she's just mistranscribed on the Index....well......hoping ???
Those Parish Relief records could reveal something........
WHO CAN DO A LOOK-UP PLEASE ;D
Annie
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Hi Annie, I had a quick look at the poor relief records a couple of weeks ago didn't see anything, but I only had about half an hour before they closed. I'll be back in the Mitchell either today(Thursday) or Friday will try to make a bit more time to search.
If anyone else is going to be around hope they'll look too. Two heads, four eyes , maybe just maybe we'll find something.
Val
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Ugh...Not sure what happened to my post, must have pressed wrong button earlier ::)
Val,
That would be great as this is becoming an obsession with the unknowns ???
Thought this might have been an 'unknown' son?
NORVAL
JANE
NORVAL
EDWARD
1874
644/10 10
10
Hutchesontown
Annie
Can't be a remarriage of Jane as there's no corresponding entry under a different surname i.e. must be a single Jane but it's Edward I'm curious about.
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What was Scottish law at that time - 1850s ? Would Jane's children be legally the children of her husband
Certainly as far a formal registration from 1855 was concerned, the law assumed that a child born to a married woman was her husband's unless she declared otherwise.
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Can't be a remarriage of Jane as there's no corresponding entry under a different surname i.e. must be a single Jane
unless she was being less than 100% truthful.
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A look for them in 1881 may give a clue!
Annie
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Can't find a couple Edward & Jane in 1881.
Looks like the only Edward Norval I can see, his wife was a Margaret (Hunter), mother was Margaret & he was born Perthshire c1850
Annie
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► I think the records from the Belvidere Infectious Diseases Hospital Calton hold the key to Jane Norval.
Isobel found an 1871 Census record for Jane Blair/Norval as a patient there see #331.
How many Jane Blair/Norval's could there be in the Calton area and who's name has a strong likelihood of connected to at least 2 houses of ill-repute and 2 assaults by the Madame's of such establishments and then assaulted by a James Blair Gordon, clerk - probably mistakenly written or given as no such person exists in the whole of Scottish births and deaths for that period range.
As stated before the Hospital opened in 1870. I feel it's definitely her. She's a highly likely candidate for infectious disease. When she entered that hospital like every hospital they would have taken down ALL her particulars including current address, next of kin, where they can be contacted, her job title etc, etc.
I also think she's not going to be coming out - alive. Catch a disease back then you're in big trouble. Tens of thousands of people died just from TB over those years. Penicillin wasn't discovered until 1928 - 57yrs later than her Census entry and there were no antibiotics either. The need for such a hospital in Calton speaks for itself. It was a substandard place just to be living amongst all the toxic industries and she is in one of the worst.
There's no death record of Jane Blair/Norval. Who has the money to bury her if she died in there which is highly likely or out of there even? No husband and her daughter has been married barely 2yrs. A likely Pauper's grave maybe even on the grounds if they had a burial lot. All that survives of Belvidere is a few crumbling brick walls that housed very sick patients most of whom would never leave.
Mr.Tough stated in his email reply to me that those records existed for that period. Not what was in them however so it could be finding a nugget of gold or fool's gold of just a name.
That's what I think happened to Jane/Blair Norval. :(
Sad but I think true but I'm willing to wash off any egg that lands on my face.
*** Those records hold the key. They may even confirm that it's not her.
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Can I just point out that the 1871 entry is simply for a Mrs Blair ( not even a first name). Age is about correct and right area which is why I offered it up as a possibility.
My own feeling is that Jane possibly followed her daughter South. I have scoured the Scottish deaths and she definitely doesn't seem to be recorded there.
Isobel
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Thanks for clarifying that Isobel.
I'm still hoping it's her otherwise you just threw a bucket of ice cold water on me. :)
Let's not let the truth get in the way of a good story ...
Still would like to scan those hospital entries.
Thanks.
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The theory of the "seven year rule" is certainly worth keeping in mind, but it may not in fact be the basis for the delay in the Australian marriage for Gordon.
There is nothing in Julia DROUGHTON's background offering impediment to an earlier her marriage to Gordon.
I suspect therefore the delay was due to Gordon's existing marriage to NORVAL.
I further conjecture it likely that the moment he was notified of her death in UK, he took action to marry DROUGHTON.
The family connections which Gordon had in QLD must have been aware of his NORVAL marriage. (though possibly it was not mentioned to his children).
He had a "respectable position " in the community and would wish that his personal files and credentials were above reproach. It was a case of bigamy or delaying marriage until he was free to take the step (i e NORVAL's death)
As a researcher mainly in Australia, I have noted often how there was a surprising amount of correspondence between the old country and the residents in the new colonies.
People really did keep in touch to a great extent, especially if they possessed the level of writing and skills of a man like Gordon. Information about her may have been sent to him.
I think Jane NORVAL's death may be after the possible 1871 census sighting, but quite close to the marriage of Gordon to DROUGHTON as it was this which made it OK.
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Birth information Blair - Norval children and some timeline:
Marriage 7 June 1850. OPR - Gordon Blair clerk in Glasgow & Jane Norval residing there.
Georgina Lorimer Blair born 15 Nov 1850. OPR - Gordon Blair clerk 18 Clyde st Calton & Jane Norval
had a lawful daughter 1st child. witnesses Thomas Scot, James Norval.
Census 1851 7 April - Gordon Blair - Head - M - 23 solicitor's clerk Stirlingshire - St.Ninians
Jane Blair - Wife - M - 21 Lanarkshire - Glasgow
Georgina - dau - 4 m - Lanarkshire - Glasgow
Unnamed child boy born 10 July 1852 - [F] Gordon Blair [M] Jane Norval - from FamilySearch.
James Gordon Blair born 13 Dec 1853. OPR - [F] Gordon Blair [M] Jane Norval - only document I
could find was unreadable. Transcript only.
Jane Blair born 15 Jan 1855 - 116 Thistle st. Gordon Blair - clerk - 26 yrs Stirling - 1 female living
3 boys [unreadable] Jane Blair MS Norval - Informant Gordon Blair ...
and it looks as though he 'signed' it that way even though faint.
James Gordon Blair born 10 July 1856 - 4 Wellcroft Place Glasgow - James Gordon Blair writer - this
is the 1st use of 'writer'. Jane Blair MS Norval. She is the informant and
mother and it appears as though it could be her signature? not 100%
certain but 'Blair' may have started as 'N' and overwritten by a 'B'.
Her mistake? Also 1st use of 'James' was it a registrar mistake?
Thomas Gordon Blair born 27 Sep 1857 - 8 Crawford st. Glasgow. James Gordon Blair writer - Jane
Blair MS Norval. Informant - J Gordon Blair father and it's looking much
like a signature but ... it appears that the 'J' has been squeezed in later.
very helpful summary provided by OZScot earlier in the thread. Thought it might help to refresh memories.
Isobel
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Trying to attach la snip from little James Gordon Blair's death cert.
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Good it posted.
The snip is from little James Gordon Blair's death in Aug 1856.
He was 4 weeks old. Cause of death "Sudden"
That is definitely our Gordon Blair's signature with its distinctive D ( Thanks GorDon :P)
I would assume that Gordon was the father of this child if he accepted responsibility to register his death and organise his burial at Catherdral burying ground.
Can I just point out re. Jane Norval/Henry Schwabe. It is entirely possible that the two were never in a relationship .
Jane was according to her daughter's marriage certificate a housekeeper (maybe sounded better than "Servant" ?) .
Henry Schwabe was allegedly a ship owner/shipping merchant.
You don't need to read Catherine Cookson to see where I'm going with this !
But just because Jane fell pregnant by Schwabe and gave birth to a daughter does not mean that the couple were in a proper relationship. Indeed we , so far, have uncovered nothing to link Schwabe to Jane Norval other than her first daughter's marriage.
Looby :)
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I think your general assumption that people entering the Belvedere wouldn't come out alive is doubtful to say the least, what you don't know you don't know. The hospital (now gone) was in Parkhead, not the Calton.
Paupers in that quarter of the city were buried in the Eastern Necropolis which had a contract from the Poor Inspector, these new cemeteries opened following the scandal of irregular burials during the cholera epidemic of the 1840's,
http://www.glasgowhistory.co.uk/Books/Tollcross&Dalbeth/TollcrossCHapters/BelvedereHosp.htm
http://archives.gla.ac.uk/gghb/collects/hb65.html
Skoosh.
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A couple of brief comments:
Just because there was an infectious deseases hospital in Calton does not necessarily mean that area had more infectious diseases than anywhere else. It was probably located centrally for easy accessibility or vacant land or premises. As a comparison, a hospital for tropical diseases or an eye hospital's location does not mean there are more people in that are who have tropical diseases or eye problems.
I note in the above d/c for little James Gordon, the distinctive D in the name Gordon, his father, however the rest of the certificate looks to be written in the same hand?
As Jane Norval's death can't be found in Scotland or England ... is it too much of a stretch to consider the possibility that she went to Australia too?
Added: apologies if any or all of this has been covered earlier in this long thread. :)
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I'm with Ruskie, I'm afraid I think that the signatures posted by various people on the register pages all appear to me to be the hand of the Registrar or the Clerk completing the Register.
On another note, I see that Jane's daughter, Jane, states that she was a Cotton Power Loom Weaver when she married in 1874. Herman/Herman Schwabe seems to have had a link to this industry and his full name appears to be Herman Levi Schwabe (possibly the owner of H L Schwabe & Co of 146 West George Street, Glasgow?). Could he also be linked to the Schwabes also who appear to be from the far north of Germany and of the same age group and who had a factory in Middleton in the Manchester area? He also appears to have been a steward at a banquet in honour of Sir Robert Peel being elected Rector of Glasgow University in 1837.
I don't know if this takes us anywhere but you never know when some clue will link up!
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Perhaps, Herman's will might hold a clue?
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I'm with Ruskie, I'm afraid I think that the signatures posted by various people on the register pages all appear to me to be the hand of the Registrar or the Clerk completing the Register.
Really :o ? I'm afraid I disagree.
The D in GorDon ( signature of informant) is not repeated in any other word with a d in it on the entire page of the register , as far as I can see.....the words 'cathedral, sudden, maiden, undertaker and Gordon (deceased's name and father's name)' all have a lower case d.
I don't know much about handwriting but looking at the other 2 entries on the page I would also say both signatures were not in the hand of the Registrar.
Would a Registrar disguise their handwriting to sign the register on behalf of people?
I have attached a snip from the same certificate of death which shows Gordon Blair's name under the parents column for comparison.
Looby :)
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I see what you mean looby. I still think that the writing looks fairly similar, although with more formal writing there will be similarities between everyone's writing as they were all taught to write the same way. :)
I was not aware that an informant signed a Scottish death certificate.
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Perhaps, Herman's will might hold a clue?
If he was the father of Jane Norval's daughter, he was actually married with at least 1 child.
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X137-FYD
Herman Levy Schwabe
Spouse Auguste Bandman
Daughter...
Mathilde Auguste Schwabe
Born 07 Nov 1840
GLASGOW, LANARK
Annie
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Perhaps, Herman's will might hold a clue?
If he was the father of Jane Norval's daughter, he was actually married with at least 1 child.
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X137-FYD
Herman Levy Schwabe
Spouse Auguste Bandman
Daughter...
Mathilde Auguste Schwabe
Born 07 Nov 1840
GLASGOW, LANARK
Annie
Wonder what address Herman and Auguste had during that 40's decade. :o
We have little Jane/Janet Schwabe/Sthornlie in 1851 aged 2.
Sue
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1841
Hermaan Schwabe
40
Born Foreign Parts
Civil Parish Glasgow (St Mungo)
Lanarkshire
Address Provanside
Occ. Merchant
Parish NO. 644/1
Household Members:
Hermaan Schwabe 40
Auguste Schwabe 35
Ottilie Schwabe 6
Ludwig Schwabe 1
Mathilda Schwabe 7 Mo
Catherine Leela 25
Margaret Mccoll 20
Eliza Phillips 25
Sophia Kling 40
Annie
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Perhaps, Herman's will might hold a clue?
If he was the father of Jane Norval's daughter, he was actually married with at least 1 child.
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X137-FYD
Herman Levy Schwabe
Spouse Auguste Bandman
Daughter...
Mathilde Auguste Schwabe
Born 07 Nov 1840
GLASGOW, LANARK
Annie
Wonder what address Herman and Auguste had during that 40's decade. :o
We have little Jane/Janet Schwabe/Sthornlie in 1851 aged 2.
Sue
I believe I have already posted Herman's 1841 & 1851 Census details much earlier on this thread when I first speculated about him as a candidate for being Jane Norval's daughter's father.
Herman is in Glasgow - address Provanside in the parish of St Mungo in 1841
In 1851 he is in Ayr in Ayrshire. However in the Schwabe family , he has a 1 year old son Frederick who was born in Glasgow. So Herman has not been living in Ayr for very long.
Looby :)
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I have been talking with several of my Qld cousins and they assure me that Qld probate files can be full of quality family history info, including wills, affidavits from beneficiaries giving 'proof' of their family relationships, and affidavits from claimants seeking benefits. None of my rellies are able to get to the Qld Archives to physically read the file, and I don't anticipate being in the Brisbane area anytime soon (although I could be up at Urangan a suburb of Hervey Bay Qld next month or early June, OP's profile shows located Hervey Bay) but I am assured that anyone can apply for copies of those files on payment of Qld Archive fees. I have previously posted the index info re the two probate files (Gordon and Julia) and the 1864 land file. So may I suggest our OP makes a request of the Australia Board asking for a lookup at Qld Archives, and with a link to this thread. http://www.rootschat.com/forum/australia/
JM
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1836 - 37
SCHWAB, A. F. commission merchant, 135 Buchanan street
Schvvabe, M. H. & Gobert, merchants, 31 Buchanan street
Schwabe, H. L. of M. H. Schwahe Sf Gobert, house Provanside
Schwabe, L. of M. H. Schwabe §• Gobert, house 8 Blythswood square
1837 - 38
SCHWAB, A. F. commission merchant, 135 Buchanan street
Schwab, Adolphus, at A. F. Schwab's, house 69 Bath street
Schwabe, M. H. & Gobert, merchants, 51 Buchanan street
Schwabe, H. L. of M. H. Schwabe & Gobert, house Provanside
Schwabe, L. of M. H. Schwabe & Gobert, house 129 Hope street
1838 - 39
SCHWAB, A. F. commission merchant, 135 Buchanan street
Schwab, Adolphus, of A. JF. Schwab, house 69 Bath street
Schwabe, M. H. & Gobert, merchants, 51 Buchanan street
Schwabe, H. L. ofM. H. Schwabe Sj" Gobert, house Provanside
Annie
Ooops, Schwabe & Gobert House is at 8 Blythswood square, Glasgow
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I think your general assumption that people entering the Belvedere wouldn't come out alive is doubtful to say the least, what you don't know you don't know. The hospital (now gone) was in Parkhead, not the Calton.
Paupers in that quarter of the city were buried in the Eastern Necropolis which had a contract from the Poor Inspector, these new cemeteries opened following the scandal of irregular burials during the cholera epidemic of the 1840's,
http://www.glasgowhistory.co.uk/Books/Tollcross&Dalbeth/TollcrossCHapters/BelvedereHosp.htm
http://archives.gla.ac.uk/gghb/collects/hb65.html
Skoosh.
Hi Skoosh,
When I was looking for the Belvidere Hospital I tried to find it on maps as close to 1871 when it could have been her when she entered the Belvidere. I wasn't able it get a map with an exact date.
The best one I could find that established exactly where it was is on the link below.▼
http://maps.nls.uk/view/74400475
It's a cracking 1912 Bartholomew survey and shows the hospital on the banks of the Clyde at the U-shape bend of the river. Parkhead above London Road. I looked for an earlier one now knowing where it was situated. Wikipedia gave some more information that it was originally - 'Belvidere Hospital, built on the Belvidere estate which extended from London Road to the river Clyde.'▼
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parkhead
I looked for the Belvidere estate on an earlier map and I found it on an 1858 Ordnance Survey.
There it is right at the U-shape bend of the Clyde and on the banks - Low Belvidere & Belvidere Cottage with sprawling gardens south of the London road down the river Clyde.▼
http://maps.nls.uk/view/74427695
Written across it in large Capitals is CALTON. First ward. North of the London road is Parkhead.
That's why assumed it was in Calton. The map is 12 years before it's building. the other is 1912, 42 years after so it probably was originally Calton then changed at some stage as they do Parkhead.
http://maps.nls.uk/view/82891812
The above link ▲ is much later again 1935 showing a huge sprawling hospital which is then in the Parkhead Ward written across it. Nice map! Not a place I'd like to have visited however.
Thanks.
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Sue’s comments re Gordon and Julia’s marriage being formalised in 1876 are worth following up, so here’s some possibles for the Elusive death registration of Jane NORVAL in the UK. I am also of the strong view that families kept in contact, and that Grandmothers kept up good correspondence. I have recently finished a decade long project sorting out private family papers which, according to a request in my own Gran's will, are now fully conserved, catalogued and ready to be added to the family's existing holdings at The Mitchell Library. NO, NO, NO, not the one in Scotland, but THE MITCHELL, the one in Sydney NSW, now part of the NSW State Library. ::) ::) ;D ;D (Yes, hiding the family scandals in a Public Library makes good sense ! The existing holdings for this particular family include correspondence across several generations from 1800s to 1860s, mainly between female first cousins in NSW and Cornwall)
Free bmd has index references for several possible Jane BLAIR deaths in Lancashire (Georgina Lorimer BAMBER and family moved to Lancs by 1869 when Catherine Louisa at St Catherine’s (C of E) at Edge Hill, Liverpool was baptised on 18 May 1869
https://www.freebmd.org.uk/
December Qtr 1869
Jane BLAIR, 38, W. Derby, GRO 8B/421
June Qtr 1872
Jane BLAIR 46, W Derby, GRO 8b/322
December Qtr 1894
Jane BLAIR, 59, W. Derby, GRO8b/265
I have NOT looked for these lasses on any Lancs Census. It is entirely possible that none of these lasses were connected in any way to the Qld Gordon BLAIR.
https://familysearch.org/wiki/en/Walton_on_the_Hill_St_Mary,_Lancashire_Genealogy
http://www.lancashirebmd.org.uk/
I have not yet found time to concentrate of searching passenger lists for Jane's possible migration to Australia. Even if she did, if she travelled steerage she may just be a number.
http://www2.sl.nsw.gov.au/archive/events/exhibitions/2010/onehundred/100-years/DS-Mitchell-and-the-Mitchell-Library.htm
JM
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https://www.freebmd.org.uk/
December Qtr 1869
Jane BLAIR, 38, W. Derby, GRO 8B/421
June Qtr 1872
Jane BLAIR 46, W Derby, GRO 8b/322
December Qtr 1894
Jane BLAIR, 59, W. Derby, GRO8b/265
JM
According to the 1855 birth, Jane was 23 yrs i.e. born 1832
This would give a birth of 1831/32
December Qtr 1869
Jane BLAIR, 38, W. Derby, GRO 8B/421 - most likely if it's her (in my opinion)
This one would give a birth for c1825
June Qtr 1872
Jane BLAIR 46, W Derby, GRO 8b/322
This one would give a birth for c1835
December Qtr 1894
Jane BLAIR, 59, W. Derby, GRO8b/265
Annie
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Jane jamieson Norval was born 30th November 1829 (Familysearch). She is age 11 in 1841 ( with her family in Saltmarket, Glasgow) and 21 in 1851 ( with Gordon in Clyde Street, Glasgow).
Isobel
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Just a wee note about a legal connection!
Herman's daughter, Ottilie married a John McLaren who was an Advocate, in 1868. He became a High Court Judge and, therefore a Lord, and she, a Lady. From googling, I note that their daughter, Ottilie, became a Sculptor and trained by Rodin!
I had a nosey (my nose was bothering me!) at Herman's and August/a/e's wills and Herman's DC. Herman died in Helensburgh with the DC just saying married but not who to. The Informant was the Doctor who certified his death - odd!
His Will left everything to his wife or, whom failing, his children with a list of people to help his wife as executrix.
August/a/e's Will is quite strange. She left everything to her 2nd daughter, Mathilde, "in acknowledgement of her unremitting and tender care for her invalided parents". Then "To my equally beloved eldest daughter and her respected husband, John McLaren, Advocate, I leave a Mother's blessing and heartfelt thanks for all their considerate actions of kindness and love, by which my last year's of life were made to pass more comfortably than they otherwise could have done." I thought this a strange sentence for a will which was written 9 years before she actually died but maybe she thought she was at death's door.
The next bit is quite strange too - "I shall die in the hope that moral as well as bodily strength may be given to all the members of our family circle to work out for themselves such a life of usefulness as will keep their memory respected by all with whom they come in contact during their earthly pilgrimage.
No note of any witnesses to the Will although apparently signed by her but a note that their was an envelope with "My Will" written on it. The Will was docquetted in the usual way by Mathilde (her 2nd daughter) and then witnessed by her brother-in-law, John McLaren as a JP (haven't checked when he became a Lord). I would have thought that strange for him to witness when he is mentioned in Will??
Anyway, perhaps again no help at all but interesting documents.
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No note of any witnesses to the Will although apparently signed by her but a note that their was an envelope with "My Will" written on it. The Will was docquetted in the usual way by Mathilde (her 2nd daughter) and then witnessed by her brother-in-law, John McLaren as a JP (haven't checked when he became a Lord). I would have thought that strange for him to witness when he is mentioned in Will??
When you say 'docquetted', what exactly do you mean?
You said there were no witnesses to the will, and it would perhaps have been odd if Mathilde or John had been asked to witness it, as they were either beneficiary or executor.
Assuming that Mathilde and John McLaren acted jointly or separately as Executors, they would have had to go to court with the will to have it confirmed (confirmation being, in Scots law, the equivalent of probate in English etc law). It is perfectly normal for a beneficiary also to be an executor.
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Sorry Forfarian, I didn't explain.
I meant that the original Will was docquetted by Mathilde i.e. a particular paragraph that has to be written by an Executor/Executrix on a Will and signed when lodging an Inventory with the Commissary Office when applying for Confirmation. Of course, what is in the Commissary Register on SP is just a handwritten copy by the Commissary Clerk or his deputies.
The docquet states "Edinburgh 25th June 1883. Referred to in Oath to Inventory of the Personal Estate of the late Mrs Augusta Bandmann or Schwabe of date 25th June 1883 signed M A Schwabe/John McLaren JP"
Nowadays, it's a declaration rather than an Oath, I believe.
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Cheers Oz, that Calton thing will be a political ward boundary. I think there were quite a few nurses died working in the Belvedere with infectious diseases. They were very brave lassies!
Skoosh.
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...I have previously posted the index info re the two probate files (Gordon and Julia) and the 1864 land file. So may I suggest our OP makes a request of the Australia Board asking for a lookup at Qld Archives, and with a link to this thread. http://www.rootschat.com/forum/australia/
JM
I am willing to visit the Qld State Archives. :)
As I have only partially been following this thread, may I ask if someone can please direct me to the post giving the information I need to complete this lookup. (reference details etc)
JM, you mention probate files - I have not looked up probate files before, however I have looked up wills. Does anyone have Gordon's will or death certifixate? (I wonder if it names a previous marriage and children) ;)
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Hopefully of interest ....
http://www.archivessearch.qld.gov.au/Search/BasicSearch.aspx
INDEX info only
Eccs Files
Gordon BLAIR Series 4486 Item 281260
Julia BLAIR, Item 2815283
Land Agreement 23/9/1863-22/2/1864
Gordon BLAIR as Purchaser …. Series 1215, Item 1959983
These files would also be on my 'must have' list if this family were on my family tree. 2 x Probate and 1 x Land
Qld State Archives website has “How can we help you?” page too. I think it would be good to check these files for Gordon and Julia BLAIR. Probate files should contain proof of death, the will, beneficiaries, administrative details and if Qld Probate files are similar to NSW ones, can even contain vital family history documents **, including hand sketches of family trees used during the hearings for proving a grant of probate. The land file dates from September 1863, and it may have a clear signature for Gordon ....
**ADD .... fingers crossed, as I wonder if there's baptism records there for Henry Gordon and James William, the sons of Gordon and Julia BLAIR....
JM
Fingers crossed
JM
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1841
Hermaan Schwabe 40
Hmm, i.e. born c1800
According to the 1855 birth, Jane was 23 yrs i.e. born 1832 (32 yr age difference)!!
Jane/Janet Schwabe/Sthornlie in 1851 aged 2 making Jane only 17 yrs old........was she taken advantage of ??? Possibly 'with child' aged 16?
I wonder if Jane was Servant/Housekeeper to the family before 1851?
Annie
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Thanks for the recap and information JM.
I will see how the week pans out - might try to get there Thursday or Friday.
Yes. Fingers crossed. :)
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Hi
I have a reflection ;D
Georgina Lorimer BAMBER had a number of children and one, whom we have we have discussed, had the same given name as her father. Henry Gordon born in 1882.
It seems to me that if Gordon BLAIR had really deserted Georgina's mother, Jane (NORVAL), leaving her to struggle alone to survive, the BAMBERs would not have respected him enough to give his name to one of their children.
Just odd ::)
Henry Gordon was born twenty years after the alleged departure of Georgina's father.
Great to hear you can help out with the look up Ruskie ;D
Sue
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Ruskie,
That should be an interesting day. Hope you find some interesting info. ;D
I wonder if you would be allowed to photograph/download info. to usb/cd etc?
Sue,
It has occurred to me that Georgina may only have been told her father had died, given that Jane is claiming to be a widow i.e. Georgina would have had no idea possibly of the circumstances & of her father being alive & well in Oz :-\
Annie
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And of course, Jane herself may not have claimed to be a widow, as I think it would have been the head of the household that provided info to the enumerator in 1861.
I am still trying to figure out how Jane Drummond SCHAWBE knew in November 1874, when marrying, of her own mum's occupation and subsequent marriage to Gordon BLAIR and even knew his occupation and knew that her own father was deceased (but the clergy did not record "Gordon BLAIR, Law Clerk, residing in Queensland, Australia" ;D ;D ;D if only ::) ::) ).
JM
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Jane herself may not have claimed to be a widow, as I think it would have been the head of the household that provided info to the enumerator in 1861.
I am still trying to figure out how Jane Drummond SCHAWBE knew in November 1874, when marrying, of her own mum's occupation and subsequent marriage to Gordon BLAIR and even knew his occupation and knew that her own father was deceased (but the clergy did not record "Gordon BLAIR, Law Clerk, residing in Queensland, Australia" ;D ;D ;D if only ::) ::) ).
JM
JM,
"but the clergy did not record "Gordon BLAIR, Law Clerk"
Because he was GorDon Blair ;D
Annie
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Oh &.....
Henry Schwabe happened to die in 1874 too....
I wonder what date he died & was this when Jane decided to tell young Jane that he was her 'supposed' father?
I wish this was my tree right now, DNA would be on the cards looking for Schwabe descendants ;D
It's so easy to get really interested in certain threads, gives me a buzz :P
Annie
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Ruskie,
That should be an interesting day. Hope you find some interesting info. ;D
I wonder if you would be allowed to photograph/download info. to usb/cd etc.
Annie
I use a scanner app on my phone so it's as simple as taking a photo of each page. :)
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I have serious reservations about a Hermann Schwabe and Henry Schwabe being one and the same. Apart from the huge age difference already mentioned there is no indication anywhere in available records that Hermann was a Shipowner.
Isobel
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I have serious reservations about a Hermann Schwabe and Henry Schwabe being one and the same. Apart from the huge age difference already mentioned there is no indication anywhere in available records that Hermann was a Shipowner.
Yes, I think I would agree.
Unfortunately there seem to have been at least two famous Heinrich Schwabes. One (1789-1875) was a distinguished amateur astronomer, but I have not been able to find out (so far) what his day job was; the other (1847-1924) was an architect and sculptor and Professor at the Nuremberg College of Applied Art, plainly too young to have met Jane Norval, but he comes up so frequently in searches that he swamps other references to Heinrich Schwabe.
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Sorry - just found him in the 1851 census in Ayr where he is described as a Merchant Shipper. Don't know if that means he owns his own ships or not. Still don't think he is the father of Jane.
Isobel
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Sorry - just found him in the 1851 census in Ayr where he is described as a Merchant Shipper. Don't know if that means he owns his own ships or not. Still don't think he is the father of Jane.
What is the earliest reference found to Henry Schawbe/Schwabe in relation to Jane Norval's child?
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I have completely lost track of what has and has not been posted already on this thread, but has anyone looked at the original baptism of James Gordon Blair, son of John Blair, on 7 October 1842, baptised October 1842 in the Ivy Place Associate Church, Stranraer, Wigtownshire?
1851 Census, Newton Ralston, Neilston, Renfrewshire (from FreeCEN)
John Blair, head, 47, joiner
Elizabeth Blair, wife, 47
Jean R Blair, daughter, married, 20, sea captain's wife
John Blair, son, 14
Hugh Blair, son, 13
Neil Blair, son 11,
James Blair, son, 9, born Stranraer
William Blair, son 6
Elizabeth Adair, granddaughter, 5
Interesting coincidence that there should be a daughter Jane apparently married to a Mr Blair?
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As far as I can recall the earliest mention we have found of Henry Schwabe as reputed father is Jane Norval/Schwabe/Drummond's marriage certificate on 12th Nov 1874 when she is 25 years old.
The same information is recorded on her death cert in 1911.
I don't think anyone has said that Herman Schwabe was Jane's father, only that he is a possible candidate , based on the fact that there were very few Schwabes in Glasgow circa 1841-1851 . There could of course have been a Henry Schwabe who has passed through Glasgow without leaving a trace on records. And then there is the "shipping" connection. We haven't found that Herman had a ship or ships but by the time Jane Drummond married information given to her may have been slightly muddled. All supposition ;D
I wouldn't rule Herman out because of his age either. He may be 50 on the 1851 Census, however he has 3 children aged 10, 5 and 1 year old all born in Glasgow recorded with him.
Looby :)
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As far as I can recall the earliest mention we have found of Henry Schwabe as reputed father is Jane Norval/Schwabe/Drummond's marriage certificate on 12th Nov 1874 when she is 25 years old.
The same information is recorded on her death cert in 1911.
So it is quite conceivable that Jane misrememberedthe given name of her errant father - whom she may never actually have seen.
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As far as I can recall the earliest mention we have found of Henry Schwabe as reputed father is Jane Norval/Schwabe/Drummond's marriage certificate on 12th Nov 1874 when she is 25 years old.
The same information is recorded on her death cert in 1911.
So it is quite conceivable that Jane misrememberedthe given name of her errant father - whom she may never actually have seen.
Exactly!
Although, Schwabe is an unusual name in Glasgow at this time for Jane to have invented :-\ But she may have misheard it or misheard the forename .
The Drummonds obviously take her on when she is very young. I have wondered if we could find a connection there.
Looby :)
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1851 Census, Newton Ralston, Neilston, Renfrewshire (from FreeCEN)
John Blair, head, 47, joiner
Elizabeth Blair, wife, 47
Jean R Blair, daughter, married, 20, sea captain's wife
John Blair, son, 14
Hugh Blair, son, 13
Neil Blair, son 11,
James Blair, son, 9, born Stranraer
William Blair, son 6
Elizabeth Adair, granddaughter, 5
Interesting coincidence that there should be a daughter Jane apparently married to a Mr Blair?
On SP she's Jane.....
1851
BLAIR JANE R
20
572/ 10/ 27
Neilston
Renfrew
I don't have enough time to look for a marriage at the moment 1845 - 1851
Annie
Added, Think this may be her, born Ayrshire;
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:VYYS-XXZ
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I have completely lost track of what has and has not been posted already on this thread, but has anyone looked at the original baptism of James Gordon Blair, son of John Blair, on 7 October 1842, baptised October 1842 in the Ivy Place Associate Church, Stranraer, Wigtownshire?
1851 Census, Newton Ralston, Neilston, Renfrewshire (from FreeCEN)
John Blair, head, 47, joiner
Elizabeth Blair, wife, 47
Jean R Blair, daughter, married, 20, sea captain's wife
John Blair, son, 14
Hugh Blair, son, 13
Neil Blair, son 11,
James Blair, son, 9, born Stranraer
William Blair, son 6
Elizabeth Adair, granddaughter, 5
Interesting coincidence that there should be a daughter Jane apparently married to a Mr Blair?
James Gordon Blair appears to be the son of John Blair ( born New Daly Ayrshire) and Elizabeth McCartney ( born Kirkmaiden, wigtonshire) who married in 1823. The Jane R Blair in 1851 is actually John and Elizabeth's daughter Jane Kirkland Blair. She married George Frederick Adolphus Augustus Adair in 1848 and the two Adair grandchildren living with John and Elizabeth in 1861 are hers. George supposedly died in Calcutta in 1856 and Jane then married George Weir in Liverpool in 1864.
Isobel
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There are four entries for jane's death in 1911 on SP.
Jane Drummond Blair
Jane Drummond Taylor
Jane D Schawbe
Jane D Norvall
The original can be viewed on a tree on Ancestry and confirms parents as Henry Schawbe, ship owner (deceased) and Jane Norvall, Housekeeper, subsequently married to Gordon Blair, Law Clerk. Informant was her husband Charles Taylor.
From the wording of the parental info on both marriage and death certificates it would seem that Jane was illegitimate.
There were several Schwabe families in Glasgow in the 1850's but there is only one Schawbe ref on SP other than two entries (marriage and death) pertaining to Jane Drummond Schawbe. The other ref is for Ludolp Schawbe in the 1855 valuation roll but he appears as Schwabe in 1851 census.
There is a Henry Schwabe who marries in Liverpool in 1851, who is described variously as a merchant and ship owner. He went bankrupt in 1857 and died in Scarborough in 1861, his wife having predeceased him in 1857.
Isobel
Ref the Henry Schwabe , shipowner, mentioned above I have found the following newspaper report. This ties him to the Schwabe families living in Manchester. Henry's sister is Julie Schwabe wife of Salis Schwabe ( it would appear from the birth entries if her children on gro that her maiden name was also Schwabe). It is conceivable that the Manchester and Glasgow families were linked in some way - there was a Hermann in Manchester as well.
Isobel
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Hi, on my way out but just noticed last post,re Salis Schwabe .
Will listed for him 1855 Edinburgh , residing in Manchester
Val
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Silas' will is on Ancestry in the Prerogative courts of Canterbury wills. Several pages, but I am having problems reading it. Anyone with some experience of reading these kind of documents fancy taking a look!
Isobel
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From An obituary of Salis Schwabe it appears that he was sent from Germany to look after family business interests in Glasgow, before moving to Manchester. Pretty sure the two family groups must have been related.
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Another cutting showing link between Henry Schwabe in Liverpool and the Manchester families.
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Great finds Isobel ;D
So perhaps Salis's brother-in-law Henry (who could possibly be a cousin too :-\. Just seems odd that 2 unconnected Schwabes- Salis and Julie -should meet and marry in London. ) was in Glasgow at some point. Salis looks to have been in England from around 1837 , but could still have had business interests and family in Scotland.
Still of a mind that Jane Norval was not in a conventional relationship with Henry Schwabe where ever they met. Don't think she was in the same social class.
Looby :)
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Interesting article about Salis and Julia which says they were cousins.
http://www.middletonia.co.uk/peopleandplaces/schwabes.html
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Jenny Lind "The Swedish Nightingale" when she visited Glasgow stayed in the Stockwell Street in an old building on the west side, (long gone), there is also a district named after her. So a connection also to the Schwabe family. Schwabe has three hits on,
http://www.happyhaggis.co.uk
Skoosh.
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I did the Blair errands today at the Qld State Archives but I don't think there is much of interest in the documents, sadly no revelations or clues to a former life. :( There is a lot of repetition as expected with legal documents.
(I have not read them thoroughly though).
A brief rundown of some of the details found in the Ecclesiastical Files for Gordon and Julia:
Gordon Blair:
Will dated 13 Oct 1877
Left everything to wife Julia, the sole executrix and guardian of his children
Gordon died 23 Aug 1900, age 66 years 11 months 4 days (I think we already have this information?)
Buried 24 August, Ipswich Cemetery
Occupation – Customs Officer
A few details from his death certificate: born Glasgow, Lanark, 40 years in Queensland, children - Isabella Dun 36, Henry Gordon 34, James William 30 – one dead female
Signature on will
Julia Blair:
Died intestate 20 Sept 1906, aged 67 years, buried 22 Sept 1906, Ipswich Cemetery
Her father is Henry a farmer, her mother is Eliza Lowe (?)
She was born Westmeath Ireland, about 52 years in Queensland
Gordon’s land purchase in Ipswich:
His signature appears twice
I expected all of the documents to be paper copies however unfortunately the Ecclesiastical files were on microfilm and I did not think to take a USB with me ::), so instead I had to resort to photographing each page from the screen using the scanner on my phone. I think it is all readable but if the quality is not good enough I can re-do.
Both files contained the death certificates – they were very wide so unfortunately I had to photograph them in sections.
I have yet to extract the documents from my phone and put them in order, remove duplicate pages etc. There are many pages, so I need to sort it all out before I can forward copies to anyone who wants them.
I will attempt to attach the signatures here, but am likely to mess it up.
Added: yes, I did mess up - having problems which I will try to sort out .... >:(
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Quite a big undertaking for you Ruskie.
If nothing new comes to light from your work, at least we can say "no stone left unturned" ;D ;D
Sue
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Well done Ruskie, and yes, Sue is spot on, - no stone left unturned.
I am not familiar with Qld Archives, but I have had plenty of experience looking up archived files at NSW Archives and it is not a two minute task, particularly if the Supreme Court seals are still in place, and you are the first person to have sought access since the files were archived.
Thank you Ruskie.
So no mention of an earlier family back in Scotland.
JM
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No mentions of a Scottish family JM, though I have not thoroughly read all of the paperwork.
I haven't had a chance today to try to sort through the images, but hope to try to do that soon.
In the meantime, if you have any questions please ask. :)
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Hi All
Just adding the image of Gordon Blair's signatures for Ruskie here below.
The first signature is taken from a screen – it’s taken from Gordon’s will. The second and third are from Gordon’s land purchase.
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You hero Monica. Thank you so much! :-*
Added: Just to note that the first signature is 1877 and the other two are from 1863 - quite a difference I think. :-\
I find it a little odd that Gordon didn't write a new will in the 23 years between 1877 and 1900.
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The land purchases may be his "business" signature and his Will, his "personal" signature?
Many people have to have 2 signatures.
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I see some strong similarities in the 3 signatures.
For Gordon, the letter 'd' is similar and does not rise (I am not familiar with describing letters! Feel like saying for the 'd' there is not an upper stick ::)).
For all 3 signatures, for the word Blair, all three have very similar '..air'. The dot of the 'i' over the 'r'. The flourish of the last 'r' looks the same on all 3.
Monica
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You may well be right Caroline, but I would think a will, being an official document, would require his best signature. I know I have various signatures for different applications. ;)
The signatures are written in the same hand, but I just thought that the differences were quite marked.
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I think the 'd' in 'GorDon' is the dead giveaway as there is no extended tail on the 'd' on the 1877 signature either.
Annie
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I find it a little odd that Gordon didn't write a new will in the 23 years between 1877 and 1900.
1877 was the year after his July marriage to DROUGHTON.
The drawing up of the will may have been a quick affair in order to firmly tie his estate, whatever that may become in the future, to his new wife and so avoid any "claims" from the former family if he were to die intestate.
Sue
ADDING a further thought here
Some of the signatures on wills I have seen have been very poor specimens.
Reason- the person was apparently extremely ill because in many cases, a death is recorded within days or weeks. The signature may in these circumstances may even have been executed in a half reclining position etc.
Although we know the death of Gordon was not until decades later, perhaps he had a health scare in 1877. The signature to me looks ' in haste' or 'under duress' ;)
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I did not put two and two together regarding the timing of the will, but it what you say makes sense with him making Julia the sole executrix and beneficiary, and his mention of her being guardian of "his" children. I thought that the addition of those words was a little odd as I would have thought as they were her children too Julia would obviously be their guardian anyway? I assumed it was just one of those things that was always included in wills kf children were involved.
I did wonder if Gordon's rushed looking signature was due to illness.
It does bring up some more questions though I think. :-\
Once I get my act together and sort out the documents, I am happy to forward them to anyone who is interested, but it amounts to around 80 pages. :-\
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I now have the files sorted, so if anyone would like a copy of the land sale and Gordon and Julia's Ecclesiastical Files, please send me a PM with your email address.
The documents look very complicated, repetitive and dull to me but some of you may find it interesting, and more importantly you may be able to extract something useful.
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Marathon undertaking for you Ruskie. We need a shining star smiley.
I am not skilled with documents of the sort, so shall not ask for a look, but I do hope others have the expertise to extract any vital clues.
Such an interesting topic it has been.
Sue
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Sue, all the Ecclesiastical documents are in one file and the land sale (only a few pages) is in another, so I am only sending out two attachments to an email - it is easy to just scroll through and avoid the 'boring bits' if you like. ;)
There are some dupicate pages such as with the death certificates as I was trying to ensure I had clear copies in case there was anything of importance on them.
:)
As you put two and two together regarding the date of Gordon's will being not long after his marriage, I thought you might be the one to discover any other 'clues', if there are any to find. ;D One thing I thought unusual, and I don't think this is the norm on wills, but may relate to the will being written so close to their marriage, is that Gordon confirms Julia's maiden name as Droughton. I wonder why?.
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Good on you Ruskie 8)
Reading through that lot will be like reading a novel ;)
Can I please have a copy of pages 2, 8, 11, 23, 27 & 29 :P ::) ;D
I actually wondered if the signature on the will was more of a 'mind elsewhere' possibly guilt knowing he's reading over & handing over his possessions to the 'guardian of "his" children' yet has other children elsewhere ???
It's surprising to see (not that I've seen it) a will where the children's names are not written down or was that common? I'm sure the ones I've seen have all mentioned the children's names?
Annie
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Hi Ruskie,
I will send you a PM with my email address so that if you have spare moment you may send attachments through. I doubt I could add much, as I have very little experience of Queensland records from that era. I do know that in the NSW Probate files, that where my male ancestor has been married more than once, that those chaps wills written/signed etc prior to about 1875 always seem to nominate their wife as beneficiary using the following terms "my wife, (her given name/s), formerly "HER-MAIDEN-NAME." I have assumed this was because until around 1875 NSW did not have any Divorce Laws, but that is simply speculation on my part.
So, unless 'Dad's' children are formally named in his will, they have no claim on his deceased estate when 'Dad's' lawful wife is his nominated beneficiary. And to ensure that 'Dad's' intent is clear, 'Dad' formally names his wife .... hence Gordon names Julia and gives her maiden surname too.
It could also be that Gordon was following Scottish tradition by including Julia's maiden surname.
Anyway, PM will be sent off to Ruskie. :)
JM
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Re names of the deceased's children not mentioned in a will.
I have had a quick look at my notes for nine of my NSW ancestors deceased estates, with wills prepared 1850s, 1860s, 1870s. - none formally name their children ::) - I had not ever considered that aspect, thanks Annie for mentioning that. All leave everything to their lawful wife, and fully identify her ... mostly by her given names and her maiden name and in one case, even naming her dad and her mum (and mum's maiden name).
I would expect Qld practices to be similar to NSW in that era, Qld hived off from NSW 1859. :)
JM
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JM,
I can only relate to Scottish wills (where someone was married with family) unfortunately which all name the children or at least some of them.
The only other one I have is a Canadian will of a 'bachelor' priest (my grand uncle) naming all known living family members.
In the case of my own father (very recent times), he was a divorcee & my mother was already deceased many years ago, his will did not specify our names, the term 'among my children and the survivors and survivor of them' (still don't understand the phrase) ??? ::) but all others I've seen have named children.
I don't know what the difference would mean :-\
Annie
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Yes, there we are, you relate to Scottish wills and I relate to NSW wills, and likely even within those two jurisdictions there's changes to the ways the legal eagles construct the words to those legal documents across the decades. I can complicate it further by explaining that in the 20th century, my family members' wills do name each individual beneficiary, and not just 'everything to the wife' .... (which to me using 21st century eyes means the deceased was expecting the wife to cope with not just her own grief, but also deal with any 'squabbles' over who gets what.... and when and how and etc)
JM
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his will did not specify our names, the term 'among my children and the survivors and survivor of them' (still don't understand the phrase) ??? ::)
I think it is to allow for the possibility that all but one of the people affected dies before the will is executed, to make it clear that everything goes to that one. I've seen it many times.
I've also seen lots of wills where the children are not named. Usually that's when the estate, or the residue thereof, is to be divided equally among them. Obviously if the children are not all getting the same it is necessary to name them individually.
I have for example, one will (in 1847) that reads, "I leave nothing to the family of my deceased son George .... in respect his education and outfit in business cost me more than his share of my means would have amounted to". The testator also names two daughters, Helen and Ann, leaving me to wonder what happened to the rest of his 10 children. I know that three of them died young, but that still leaves four not accounted for.
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I can't recall Gordon's children's dates of birth, but maybe he did not name them in his will as they were minors at the time, and as he left is estate to Julia, there was no need to mention them specifically?
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Here we are, almost 500 replies, and it is 10 May 2017 here in Australia. Our OP last posted on 28 April at reply #441. His profile shows he has been online, so I do hope he continues to be interested in these latest developments.
JM
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The OP has contacted me via PM and email to thank me. :)
(Just when I thought it was all sorted, there is an issue with files sent not able to be opened by the recipient. I am looking into this. ::) )
After all these pages, all this research, and all the documentation is it just me, or is there still that tiny bit of doubt that Scottish Gordon and Australian Gordon are one and the same? It is possible that I missed something somewhere in the thread - but do we have Gordon's signature on anything in Scotland? If not I think that finding a signature of Scottish Gordon would be that one final missing piece of the puzzle. Would there be anything that Gordon worked on while employed in Scotland that might contain his signature?
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Agh, good to know Ruskie.
I have not been requested for the pdf image of the Queensland Birth certificate for Isabella Dun BLAIR, that I purchased. It is the document which has Gordon's actual signature with that 'D' in the middle of GorDon. :-X
I posted a snip back at reply 201 on 13 April. :D Isabella is direct line to our OP's friend :)
JM
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Yes, I remember the signature JM.
(I have added to my previous post.)
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Post 379 has the scan of the 1855 Scottish birth certificate of daughter Jane. This has Gordon's witnessed signature on it.
Isobel
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Thanks Isobel. I'd forgotten about that signature.
There's no doubt then is there with the fistinctive D in thd middle if Gordon and the flourish on the r?
It only goes to show that even pillars of the community are apt to fib and have secrets they want to keep hidden.
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I have finally received an answer from one of the churches.▼
'We do have the original Marriage Register from 1876 and the marriage of Gordon Blair and Julia Droughton is recorded on 7 July 1876.
The date would be correct as the entries are in chronological order.
There is no other information about an earlier marriage.
If they were married earlier as you say in Ipswich it is possible they later found out the marriage was not registered or undertaken by an official registrar so they tied the knot properly at Ann Street. At that time marriages were performed in the manse and not the church building so there is nothing strange about that.'
We do have the signature of Gordon Blair and that of Julia Droughton on the register.
If you would like an electronic copy that can be arranged.
Blessings
Dianne.
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I have finally received an answer from one of the churches.▼
'We do have the original Marriage Register from 1876 and the marriage of Gordon Blair and Julia Droughton is recorded on 7 July 1876.
The date would be correct as the entries are in chronological order.
There is no other information about an earlier marriage.
If they were married earlier as you say in Ipswich it is possible they later found out the marriage was not registered or undertaken by an official registrar so they tied the knot properly at Ann Street. At that time marriages were performed in the manse and not the church building so there is nothing strange about that.'
We do have the signature of Gordon Blair and that of Julia Droughton on the register.
If you would like an electronic copy that can be arranged.
Blessings
Dianne.
Yes, as the email response suggests, it is possible that an 1860s marriage may not have been conducted in or at least not registered in accordance with the then statute Queensland law, and that on discovering this civil flaw that Gordon and Julia overcame that impediment by marrying in 1876.
So, I do not find this explanation from 'Dianne' at all unusual. There was a long running dispute (from mid 1840s to at least 1895) in NSW between 'Church' and 'State' re the recording/registering of marriages, and it is possible that similar dispute may have impacted onto Queensland, particularly in the early 1860s, considering Qld was hived off from NSW in 1859. The info supplied by the bride and the groom to the clergy for the 1876 registration, is relevant to an earlier 1860s marriage.
JM
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Agreed.
No answer from the other church so I won't hold my breath any longer.
Thanks for everyone's support and efforts. It was a difficult Ancestry with so many twists & turns and ambiguous at times, names and dates, either by mistake or intention.
There were so many clever people with great input.
Thanks everyone. ♥♥♥
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Sir James Blair death
Sir James died on 18/11/1944 in Brisbane at the age of 74.
Regards
Di
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Sir James Blair death
Sir James died on 18/11/1944 in Brisbane at the age of 74.
Hi Di & welcome to Rootschat :)
This thread is now 11 pages long & the info. you've posted is already known & posted here on page 2...Reply #86
However, I'm sure anyone connected to this family would be interested in any additional info. you have to contribute.
Annie
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Sorry if this point has already been dealt with .....
I am not sure the image of the form you posted Falkyrn is actually showing a signature.
Isn't the form completed by the registrar?
It all seems to be in the same hand, and I would have thought it the hand of said registrar??
Sue
The hand does look quite similar but there are slight differences in some of the lettering which possibly indicates a genuine signature. The section does claim that it is a space for the signature.
The procedure was that the Registrar entered all the particulars in his register, and got the informant to sign (assuming that the informant could write).
Then the Registrar copied all the information from this book into a second book, which involved copying out the name as signed.
At the end of the year the Registrar sent one book to the Registrar General in Edinburgh, and kept the other. Sometimes it was the register with the original signatures that was sent off, and sometimes it was the copy.
The scans on Scotland's People are from the Edinburgh copies of the registers. So if the book sent to Edinburgh was the copy, the SP document doesn't have the original signature.
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No disputing that "a" Gordon Blair did marry Jane Norval and that they did have a child together.
Although one point that Isobel picked up in her excellent research was that Gordon and Jane were married by a minister from the Free Church. The Free church was formed from the secessionist churches and many of their records are not available online, this might explain the difficulty in finding proof of birth.
The Free Church of Scotland was formed by a schism in the Church of Scotland in 1843, so it cannot have had anything to do with Gordon's baptism being missing.
It is true that there were many dissenting/secession denominations long before the Free Church of Scotland was formed, and that some of these later joined the Free Church. It is also true that the registers of many dissenting/secession denominations have not survived. Most of those that do survive are in the 'other churches' section of the church records on SP, along with the post-1843 ones.
See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_Church_of_Scotland_(1843%E2%80%931900)#/media/File:Reformed_Scots_Church_Denominations.svg
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I've had a look at the 1800 Glasgow birth and the 1810 St Ninians baptism for Jean Blair. 1800 provides the information that John Blair's occupation was Change keeper, whatever that was and the witnesses were John Ferguson and Hugh Cameron. 1810 baptism was witnessed by the congregation but place of residence of John and Jean is given as Glasgow. I think this may well be the same child in both records.
I disagree.
If there were witnesses, they witnessed the baptism. It was not customary unheard of for (apparently) unrelated males to witness the birth of a baby, but it was the rule that at least two people should witness its baptism.
The Glasgow parish register is unusual in that it often gives the date of birth but not the date of baptism.
I think these are two different children of the same parents, the elder one having died and the new one having been given the same name.
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I can't find what the word/name 'AEneas' means or relates to
It's a given name.
See https://www.whatsinaname.net/php/search.php?action=search2&search_name=aeneas
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"Writers to the Signet," fancy Edinburgh lawyers! have a website & presumably a members list.
The Register of the Society of Writers to Her Majesty's Signet was published in book form in 1983. I have a copy. No Gordon Blair, James Blair or James Gordon Blair is listed in it.
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I do not see Georgina's maiden name ( that is to say "family name" of BLAIR) on the death index record.
I see her name as the mother --Georgina Lorimer-- (2 given names) BAMBER (family name).
That is because it's an English death certificate. English death certificates don't record the maiden surname of a married woman. Nor do they list even the father of the deceased person, let alone the mother.
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In the BLAIR to BAMBER marriage both parties were about 17 years old.
In Australia someone would need to give permission for such young people to marry and this would be recorded on the certificate.
Was this not an expectation in the Scotland of the time?
No. Parental consent was not required - this is the reason why Gretna Green became famous as a place to elope to, because it was the first place an eloping couple arrived at after crossing the Border, and they could get married there without it.