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Research in Other Countries => New Zealand => New Zealand Completed Requests => Topic started by: Printer on Friday 31 March 17 02:18 BST (UK)
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Hi,
This is a wild shot. I have recently discovered that my grandparents, Arnold Hart (1884-1971) & Margaret Hart (1885-1947) might possibly have owned a Private Hotel during the early 1920's, but no-one in the family today, knows where it was.
Could it have been in Christchurch, Canterbury where they came from, or was it in Milton, Otago where the Hart family lived during the late 1920's.
Is there somewhere that lists all the Private Hotels in Christchurch, or Otago?
Any help would be very much appreciated. Photo attached. Thank you.
Printer
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There was a "Hart's Private Hotel" in Aldinga, Adelaide, Australia in the late 1890s. Could they have been visiting there, and been photographed outside?
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Hi Johnf04,
No, they never left New Zealand. Both the grandparents were born in 1880's and gt grandfather Hart was an architect. I know it is a long shot, but maybe someone, somewhere just might know! Thanks anyway for your reply.
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Hello,
There is a book about Dunedin Hotels.......
Pubs galore : history of Dunedin hotels, 1848-1984 / Frank Tod
[As this topic is in the "Completed" section I have asked a moderator to move it to the main board]
Minniehaha.
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Minniehaha - Hart's Private Hotel does not appear in "Pubs Galore".
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Thanks John...... :)
Minniehaha.
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Hello...
The WW1 Reservists list compiled in 1917 mentions a Henry FITZSIMMONS (labourer) who gave his address as...
C/- Harts Hotel Waverley Kumara
No punctuation so most annoying.
I know Kumara is down on the West Coast of the South Island. Not sure if there is a Waverley down there too.
Regards
Beg
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Hi Printer,
I could only a single reference to a Hart's Private Hotel on Papers Past and it's a long shot (and very likely wrong, I reckon):
Evening Post, 16 September 1902, Page 1
Spades
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Hi johnfo4 and spades, and minniehaha (love the name by the way!)
Thank you. I have just this week (minniehaha) purchased "Pubs Galore" off Trade Me! Another rellie features in there as a licensee of a pub. But Hart's was a Private Hotel. So will pursue further. Fingers crossed. Regards to all.
Printer
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Hello Printer
Can you tell us please, where the photo of the hotel came from (- where you found it ) ?
~ Lu
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Hello Lu,
The photo was sent to me by a relation in Australia. Do you recognise it? If so, would very much like to know more about it if possible. It has also occurred to me that perhaps the grandparents only stayed at this private hotel, which might have been owned by someone else.
Printer
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Hi Printer
Despite best efforts, (and like the others), haven't been able to find anything on "Hart's Private (or otherwise) Hotel". :(
I feel sure if it was in New Zealand though, there would have been some reference found for it. ;)
Looking at NZ electoral rolls, it seems your Arnold Cecil HART was for many years listed as "a drover" (1911-1919) ... "a stockman" 1928 to 1935. 1938 Christchurch North roll has him as "a clerk" and in 1946 and 1949 he's on the Fendalton roll as "a salesyard employee". And by 1969 he's at Rangiora, listed as "a pensioner".
So given the residential addresses and occupations, doesn't look like he was in the business of operating a private hotel ? [I also tried listings for "boarding" establishments ... but to no avail.]
~ Lu
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Hello...
The WW1 Reservists list compiled in 1917 mentions a Henry FITZSIMMONS (labourer) who gave his address as...
C/- Harts Hotel Waverley Kumara
No punctuation so most annoying.
... just checking further on Henry FITZSIMONS (aka FITZSIMMONS) at Westland as I have some notes on one of my "wild West" families, which include him. ;D
~ Lu
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Hi Lu & Beg,
Sorry Beg, overlooked your response yesterday. Thank you anyway. Yes Lu, I too have been thinking about that, having also found different addresses, which makes me think they might have only stayed at the establishment. As many of us do in our travels, we see something familiar from home and usually take a photo as a keepsake. There were many Private Hotels in Christchurch in the early years of the 20th Century. I will need to pursue another path maybe. Thank you for your assistance anyway. Regards.
Printer
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... found nothing re: Henry FITZSIMMONS (wrong chap in my notes) ... nor any Hart's at accommodation establishments, West Coast or Waverley (Taranaki district) :
~ Lu
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Hello again Printer
... yes, certainly many private hotels / accommodation houses (all over the country).
BUT ... if a photo exists, as it does for "Hart's Private Hotel" ... why can't we find a trace of it in NZ ???
* Are you able to check the source of the photo with your relative ?
[Am guessing it was sent to you without notes or an explanation ? ]
~ Lu
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Perhaps it was the hotel in Adelaide, and the relative sent it because of the coincidence of the names.
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Hi
There is a notice in the Wanganui Herald 1 Nov 1912 for the Commercial Hotel Waverley EH Hart
proprietor
Muss
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Hi
There is a notice in the Wanganui Herald 1 Nov 1912 for the Commercial Hotel Waverley EH Hart
proprietor
Muss
Sure ;D ... E.H. HART was one "Edward HART" ... and this also >
http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/PATM19120513.2.27.4
Application for Licence for Commercial Hotel, Waverley.
I'd spotted E H HART earlier also. A little background info on hotel :
The original Commercial Hotel (30 to 40 rooms) at Waverley had burned down in June 1909. Jas. SMITH was proprietor at the time. Seems to have been rebuilt by 1911 (Jas. SMITH still about) then in 1912 Edward HART takes up licence (of a possibly smaller "namesake hotel" ?) HART is there until 1920 when he transfers the licence to a Joseph H. STRAWBRIDGE. Can see in newspapers fairly regular licence renewals being granted for the Commercial (just nothing though for a HART's hotel). :D
Inclined to favour the view of johnf04 that photo is possibly not of a hotel in NZ. ;D
~ Lu
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Hi Lu, muss & Johnf04,
It really is quite a mystery. I do have another photo, showing my grandmother standing in the doorway. This is what started our search. I have sent messages to the rellie in Australia, and am still waiting for a reply.
I am not familiar with an E H Hart in the family at any time.
When I hear back I will post anything new. Thank you all for your efforts. Regards.
Printer
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Hi Lu & others,
I have now been told that the photo was in a collection, found after someone passed away. But not named. It now seems likely then that perhaps one of my grandfather's siblings might have been the owner. There's William Charles Hart (b 1877 Christchurch) - not much known about him, and Clement Douglas Hart (1886-1953). Clem Hart later lived on the West Coast, after the First World War, along with his wife Mabel (1892-1957) and their daughter Mary Hart. Clem Hart died in Greymouth.
Could this be the missing link I wonder?
Printer
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I have never tried it, but using Google.images will bring up any similar photos that are out there in the internet.
Jean
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Forget that bright idea.
Google very helpfully came straight back at me and suggested RootsChat. ;D ;D
Jean
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Yes, Google search tried earlier ... but image unable to be located. ;D
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Hello Jean & lu,
Anything is worth trying! Thank you. I can see I will need to go back to the Public library, hopefully get someone who knows what this is all about. But needed to try first on Rootschat, such an excellent source of information from wonderful people. Regards.
Printer
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Hi Printer. Just read complete thread. I mentioned Harts Hotel to my wife. She said Christchurch (probably) and proceeded to describe it fairly accurately - square, 2-storey, no verandah. Agreed again when she saw photo. She cannot remember HOW she knows this - sorry.
To me Harts Hotel looks relatively similar to the Red Lion, Rangiora (a public hotel and with a history of its own).
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Image of Red Lion Hotel, Rangiora - circa 1900
http://ketewaimakariri.peoplesnetworknz.info/en/rangiora_museum/images/show/154-red-lion-hotel?view_size=large
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Hello Kweecopl & Lu,
That's the first indication that I have seen! Thank you, However, as it was Hart's Private Hotel, I very much doubt that it could have been the Red Lion Hotel, Rangiora. That hotel has had a chequered past over the years, and someone in the family would have mentioned it. Regards.
Printer
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Hi Printer
... I only added the photo link of Red Lion Hotel, Rangiora for the purpose of eliminating it ... to show that it was completely different in style to the Hart's Private Hotel. ;D
~ Lu
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Hi Lu, muss & Johnf04,
It really is quite a mystery. I do have another photo, showing my grandmother standing in the doorway. This is what started our search.
Are you able to also add the above photo ? [ It may give additional "clues" ].
~ Lu
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Hi Lu,
Here's the other photo. It doesn't really give much more than the other one posted.
Printer
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That's good. ;)
* Any idea when the photo was taken ?
* That is Margaret HART [w/o Arnold HART] b. 1885 ... is it ?
* Do you know who the seated lady is ?
~ Lu
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Hi Lu,
No date given, but probably late 1920's, early 1930's. Yes, that is my grandmother, Margaret Hart standing in the doorway. identity of other woman unknown. Thought it might have been a family member too, but not recognisable.
I do know the family moved down to Milton, near Dunedin around 1930 period. But they didn't stay there that long, and returned to Christchurch.
Printer
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Hi Printer
Well ... this for starters I suppose ? ;D
Electoral :
1938 - Otago - Clutha
HART - Margaret Elizabeth Ann - Private Hotel - Milton - married
[Can't see her hubby on that particular roll though ? Will check further. ]
~ Lu
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... here's husband ...
1938 - Canterbury - Christchurch North
HART - Arnold Cecil - 29 Gordon Ave - clerk
[He is on the main ChCh North roll - no alterations to address or removal from that roll. ]
~ Lu
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Hello Lu,
My goodness, I think you have solved it! Thank you. This has proven to be a difficult search, but when you have access to the records, eventually it all falls into place. I know that my grandparents separated around the beginning of the war, now the date shows when. Delighted and appreciate your efforts for finally getting the answers. Kind regards.
Printer
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Hi Printer
Had been going to ask if grandparents had perhaps gone their separate ways.
Still digging for you ... there may be additional information to come.
~ Lu
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Maintenance order re Arnold Cecil Hart.......
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/CHP19390613.2.104?query=arnold%20cecil%20hart
Minniehaha.
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Lu & minniehaha,
Thank you again. Wasn't aware of the newspaper piece. I have been looking too for old photos of Milton, but none about that time. The Milton Information Centre & Museum could be a good source to try, but they don't yet have a web page or email address for researching. Now that I have an actual place to look.
Printer
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Hi Printer
Here's a link to Milton / Tokomairiro Historical Society >
http://www.museumsaotearoa.org.nz/museums-directory/22817/details
~ Lu
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Despite looking at other resources, that 1938 e/roll listing was the only info I found for Margaret HART
which showed involvement in a "hotel".
Hopefully the Milton Historical Society can help (there is an email address at the link I gave you earlier.)
~ Lu
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Hi Lu,
Many thanks for your help and success in this mission!
I will post any further information that I might get back. Regards.
Printer
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The 1933 NZ Postal Directory for Milton lists an "E Hart, mtr prop", the 1936 Directory an "Edwd Hart, mtr prop." Both Directories list a "Gray's Private Hotel." Suspect mtr prop might mean a taxi owner. Had a quick look at the ERs but couldn't find him.
Alan
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Hello Alan,
Thank you. The plot thickens! Plenty to check now, another name enters the picture, although not aware of an family with initial E/Edward. Regards.
Printer.
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The 1933 NZ Postal Directory for Milton lists an "E Hart, mtr prop", the 1936 Directory an "Edwd Hart, mtr prop." Both Directories list a "Gray's Private Hotel." Suspect mtr prop might mean a taxi owner. Had a quick look at the ERs but couldn't find him.
Alan
Hi again Printer
Some further info so that you can eliminate the above "E. HART - mtr prop" who resided for a time at Milton.
This man was also known as "Edward George Vassie HART" (and while there is an affidavit on his probate file referring to the fact he was Edward HART a.k.a. Edward G.V. HART, it's not made entirely clear which of the two was his "real" name.) However he died at Dunedin in 1953 aged 50 years (bc 1903) and the cemetery records states he was born in Scotland.
http://www.dunedin.govt.nz/facilities/cemeteries/cemeteries_search?recordid=23862&type=Burial
He seems to have had two women "friends" the first of whom was Annie Gillies HART (married) who was with him in 1928 at Dunedin and in 1931 at Milton where they were both residing at the Commercial Hotel. She's later at Oamaru 1935/1938 ... and her death record shows she was some 13 years older than him ? He's still on Clutha roll 1935 and 1938 - motor proprietor but address just shown as Milton.
[Gray's Private Hotel, Milton, according to NZPO listings was operated by Ms Elnr J.GRAY (prob. Mrs Eleanor Jane GRAY as per electoral roll listings ).
In the Will of Edward G.V. HART he bequeaths his Ford V8 de Luxe Taxi and balance of cash at National Bank, to Hazel COPPERWRIGHT* otherwise known as Mrs HART ..
A correction to her surname appears on file ... as *COPPERWAITE.
Seems Hazel COPPERWAITE was born England (Herts or Beds.) in 1922 - returned there after his death - and died at Peterborough, Northants. in 2005.
You'll see there is a plaque (Service # 14085) for Edward George Vassie HART's Dunedin burial.
And, Edward HART (Service # 14085) appears on New Zealand WWII Nominal Rolls (1940-41) - residing at 433 George Street, Dunedin. His next-of-Kin is shown as Miss (or Mrs) Sarah KNOX (cousin) of 313 (or 315 ?) King Street. [Sarah Jane KNOX (55 years) d. 1942 - bur. Dunedin -- d/o Jane (nee HAMILTON) and Alexander CRAIG.]
I'm guessing your HART's were from Birmingham, so wouldn't think above Edward HART is related ?
~ Lu
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Hello Lu,
Goodness, that is a lot of information. Thank you. That also now eliminates E/Edward Hart. I have written to the Milton Historical Society, as was given by you and await a reply.
Yes, my Hart line did come from Birmingham. Regards.
Printer
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... yep ... apologies for all that extraneous E HART info ;D (really did want to be able to rule him out, though.) :D
~ Lu
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Hi Printer
Also wanted to ask ... do you think that Margaret was alone at Milton when she set up the private hotel ?
* What of her family ... her children or any of her siblings ... might they have lived nearby ?
~ Lu
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From reply #20........
"William Charles Hart (b 1877 Christchurch) - not much known about him"
I have not found his birth but the following would appear to be the children of your Mary Elizabeth Hart?:
1882/7456 Hart Amy Louise Mary Elizabeth Alfred Henry
1880/15020 Hart Percy Bernard Mary Elizabeth Alfred Henry
1886/5061 Hart Clement Douglas Mary Elizabeth Alfred Henry
1884/10881 Hart Arnold Cecil Mary Elizabeth Alfred Henry
Minniehaha.
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Hello Lu & minniehaha,
My apologies, William Charles Hart was actually born in West Bromwich (Warks) in 1877.
When Margaret was in Milton, she had her youngest daughter, Joyce, living with her. The other children were older and living in Christchurch or Wellington. But until the photo was produced, none of my generation knew anything about it. Many of Margaret's siblings also lived in Christchurch or the North Island.
Printer