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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Yorkshire (West Riding) => Topic started by: Paige20 on Monday 27 March 17 07:48 BST (UK)
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In 1851 there was a census of four Holmes' living in a workhouse together. Martha, William, Solomon, and Ann. I know Ann died at the age of four, Solomon moved to America, and I think I've connected Martha to a William Morcambe. In several of the census's lists (1871 and 1881) has a Lucy Holmes living with them and lists Martha and William as her parents. I'm wondering if this might be William's daughter (he was born in 1843 and about 20) and living with them after something might have happened to him. Or if she is Martha's daughter before she married. They've all been living in the Doncaster area all this time too.
I'm wondering if anyone is able to look up a baptism in this possible area for me? FreeReg doesn't list anything for a 1863 or 1864 birth, but before I buy a possible record could someone possibly check?
Thank you so much!
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Lucy Holmes - born 1864 - Doncaster Yorkshire - Q4 - Oct/Nov/Dec -
Volume 9C Page 500
Sandra
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From the new GRO feature - Lucy's mother's maiden name was Reynolds - the registration given by "Sandra"
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Beat me to it BumbleB - making coffee ;) ;)
HOLMES, LUCY REYNOLDS
GRO Reference: 1864 D Quarter in DONCASTER IN THE COUNTIES OF YORK AND
https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/default.asp
Sandra
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From the new GRO feature - Lucy's mother's maiden name was Reynolds - the registration given by "Sandra"
Oh awesome thanks! For some reason I had a hard time getting on the GRO today, was the father list as William then?
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That's all the information it gives - would mean buying the certificate.
Sandra
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That's all the information it gives - would mean buying the certificate.
Sandra
Thanks again! I'll have to root around to find the baptism then.
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The new feature only gives the additional information of mother's maiden name.
I've had a look on FindMyPast for a possible baptism for Lucy, but the only one in Doncaster is in 1865 had her parents as Robert and Sarah of Bridge Street, Doncaster - Robert is a Railway Guard.
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Yea that's the same issue I've been having on my ancestry for some reason. They probably didn't get married to find the marriage record. If it's Martha's daughter, she got married to someone else the next year. Then if it's William's daughter, anything could have happened to him.
Thank you all for looking! It's helpful.
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Robert and Sarah have a Lucy Holmes with them in 1871- Wallace Street Bramley Yorkshire
Robert Holmes 44 Sarah Holmes 43
Sarah M Holmes 16 William R Holmes 15
Elizabeth C Holmes 12 Lucy Holmes 6
Alice Holmes 3
Sandra
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^ thanks for looking! I think I'll end up buying it to see if it's William or Martha though.
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Is this the family you were looking at in 1871?
RG10/4717 folio 82, page 14
Orchard Street, Doncaster
William Morcombe - 30 - born Devonshire
Martha - 29 - born Doncaster
Lucy Holmes - 8 - (mmn Reynolds) see my later post
John Morcombe - 7 - (mmn Holmes)
Charles Morcombe - 5 - (mmn Holmes)
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Is this the family you were looking at in 1871?
RG10/4717 folio 82, page 14
Orchard Street, Doncaster
William Morcombe - 30 - born Devonshire
Martha - 29 - born Doncaster
Lucy Holmes - 8 - (mmn Reynolds)
John Morcombe - 7 - (mmn Holmes)
Charles Morcombe - 5 - (mmn Holmes)
Yep that's the one, I didn't see the version with the Reynolds afterward. I'm on mobile and some of it hard to use (first time with it, sorry!).
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The addition of mmn was from my looking at GRO - that doesn't appear on the actual census entry. :-[
15 June 1863 - Christ Church, Doncaster - by Banns
William Sivel Morcombe, 22, bachelor, Engine Fitter. Father: William, Shoemaker
Martha Holmes, 23, spinster. Father: George, Surveyor
The marriage also took place prior to Lucy's birth in 1864, which I think would rule out Martha being Lucy's mother, apart from Lucy's mother's maiden name was Reynolds.
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I've just had another look at that 1871 census entry - Lucy is aged 8 so cannot be the Lucy registered in 1864 :o
There is another Lucy Holmes, registered in Doncaster district - December quarter 1861 - no mother's maiden name given. ;)
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The addition of mmn was from my looking at GRO - that doesn't appear on the actual census entry. :-[
15 June 1863 - Christ Church, Doncaster - by Banns
William Sivel Morcombe, 22, bachelor, Engine Fitter. Father: William, Shoemaker
Martha Holmes, 23, spinster. Father: George, Surveyor
The marriage also took place prior to Lucy's birth in 1864, which I think would rule out Martha being Lucy's mother, apart from Lucy's mother's maiden name was Reynolds.
So is it likely to be William's daughter and something just happened to him not too long after her birth. I'll check free reg to see if that generates any results for maybe a death not too long afterward or maybe a marriage around that time. Or see if there are any other family living in the area.
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I'm confused by your latest post - "something just happened to him not too long after her birth" - do you mean William Morcombe? Whose death are you looking for?
Lucy is noted as having the surname of Holmes on the 1871 census, not Morcombe. She might be William's daughter, or she might not.
You know that William Morcombe and Martha Holmes were married in 1863, and you know that John and Charles Morcombe have mother's maiden name of Holmes when their births were registered - after the marriage.
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I'm confused by your latest post - "something just happened to him not too long after her birth" - do you mean William Morcombe? Whose death are you looking for?
Lucy is noted as having the surname of Holmes on the 1871 census, not Morcombe. She might be William's daughter, or she might not.
You know that William Morcombe and Martha Holmes were married in 1863, and you know that John and Charles Morcombe have mother's maiden name of Holmes when their births were registered - after the marriage.
William Holmes, sorry! I'm still not used to looking into English records I guess. Hmm, kind of messy in that regard. Maybe Lucy might be Martha's daughter then.
Not sure what would have happened to William Holmes, Martha's brother then.
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I've had a look at the 1851 census return where Martha (14 - born Hooton Pagnell), William (7 - born Howden), Solomon (5 - born Howden) and Ann (3 - born Howden) are all in the Union Workhouse in Howden.
From the new GRO facility, I have found William with mmn of Holmes and Solomon with mmn of Holmes, both registered in Howden District. I cannot see Ann at this moment. A possible for Martha, registered December quarter 1837 in the Doncaster District - no mother's maiden name given.
OK, so you're now looking for William Holmes, born 1844 in the Howden area.
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I've had a look at the 1851 census return where Martha (14 - born Hooton Pagnell), William (7 - born Howden), Solomon (5 - born Howden) and Ann (3 - born Howden) are all in the Union Workhouse in Howden.
From the new GRO facility, I have found William with mmn of Holmes and Solomon with mmn of Holmes, both registered in Howden District. I cannot see Ann at this moment. A possible for Martha, registered December quarter 1837 in the Doncaster District - no mother's maiden name given.
OK, so you're now looking for William Holmes, born 1844 in the Howden area.
Yea that's the original census that I connected all of them together. I've looked into Ann, she died at four. Solomon moved to America. Martha married William Morcombe. I'm looking into William, when I saw Lucy Holmes living with Martha, I thought she might have been his daughter and something might have happened to him.
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Fine, I'll keep looking.
A bit more information for you, which you may or may not have:
1841 Census - Hooton Pagnell, Yorkshire - HO107/1327/12 folio 9, page 12
Mary Holmes - 60 - born in Yorkshire
Martha Holmes - 3 - born in Yorkshire
So this could be Martha's grandmother - no relationships are shown in 1841.
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Fine, I'll keep looking.
A bit more information for you, which you may or may not have:
1841 Census - Hooton Pagnell, Yorkshire - HO107/1327/12 folio 9, page 12
Mary Holmes - 60 - born in Yorkshire
Martha Holmes - 3 - born in Yorkshire
So this could be Martha's grandmother - no relationships are shown in 1841.
I have seen that, but I didn't notice the no relationships in the 1841 census. So it's likely that she died between those dates.
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Baptism at Hooton Pagnell - 5 November 1837
Martha, daughter of Rachael Holmes, single woman of Hooton Pagnell
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Baptism at Hooton Pagnell - 24 October 1814
Rachel, daughter of William (Labourer) and Mary Holmes of Hooton, born 15 October.
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Could this be William:
Marriage at Howden - 12 August 1869 - by Licence
William Holmes - full age - bachelor - Post Messenger of Howden. Father: George, Road Surveyor
Hannah Burgen, nee Cuttill - full age - single woman of Howden. Father: Samuel, Retired Labourer
Witnesses: Robert Hall and Marina Winter
1891 Census: RG12/3918 folio 107, page 40
William Holmes - 47 - Fisherman's Outfitter - born Howden
Hannah - 64 - born Howden Dyke
M E Hall - 24 - niece - born Howden Dyke
So William appears to give the same father as Martha with a similar occupation ;)
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Hey!!!! ;)
Marriage - Howden - 25 November 1843 - by Banns
George Holmes, full age, widower, Labourer. Father: ------
Rachel Holmes, full age, spinster. Father: William, Labourer
So: Martha was Rachel's child before marriage. William, Solomon and probably Ann, after marriage.
:D :D
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Hey!!!! ;)
Marriage - Howden - 25 November 1843 - by Banns
George Holmes, full age, widower, Labourer. Father: ------
Rachel Holmes, full age, spinster. Father: William, Labourer
So: Martha was Rachel's child before marriage. William, Solomon and probably Ann, after marriage.
:D :D
Now that is really awesome! :D
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Let's hope that I am right :)
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A little bit more for you:
Burial - Howden - 30 July 1848 - George Holmes aged 33
Marriage - Howden - 9 September 1849
Mark Nutbrown, full age, widower, Husbandman of Howden. Father: Mark, Shoemaker
Rachel Holmes, full age, widow of Howden. Father: William, Labourer
1851 Census - HO107 2358 folio 273, page 16
Hailgate, Howden
Mark Nutbrown - 46, widower - Ag Lab
Ann Nutbrown - 20 - daughter
plus housekeeper with her children
I can't see Rachel in 1851, nor can I see a death in England and Wales prior to 1851 census!
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Found her!
Burial - Howden - 16 July 1850 - Rachel wife of Mark Nutbrowne - 36
Burial - Howden - 16 July 1850 - David son of Mark Nutbrowne - infant
How sad! :'( :'(
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Found her!
Burial - Howden - 16 July 1850 - Rachel wife of Mark Nutbrowne - 36
Burial - Howden - 16 July 1850 - David son of Mark Nutbrowne - infant
How sad! :'( :'(
Oh that's sad :'(
I'm trying to think of anything I else I can tell you that I do now.
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Perhaps you do need to purchase Lucy's birth certificate to confirm or refute our assumptions. I'm assuming that it is still your aim to ascertain her parentage. I can't readily see a baptism for her, certainly via the Church of England records available on FindMyPast and Ancestry.
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Perhaps you do need to purchase Lucy's birth certificate to confirm or refute our assumptions. I'm assuming that it is still your aim to ascertain her parentage. I can't readily see a baptism for her, certainly via the Church of England records available on FindMyPast and Ancestry.
Thanks, will have to do when I get the chance.