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Old Photographs, Recognition, Handwriting Deciphering => Handwriting Deciphering & Recognition => Topic started by: PTRACER on Wednesday 22 March 17 05:59 GMT (UK)
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I won't tell you its subject matter (perhaps you can guess from the 'In loving memory of...'), but it's the name I'm after on the third line. I really do think the second name is 'Mike' but I may be wrong!
(http://i66.tinypic.com/2qrzi1s.jpg)
I also find the dates hard to read. Is that 26 or 16? And below, 10 or 19?
(Already spent a considerable amount of time on Ancestry.co.uk scrolling through names associated with those dates...Nada)
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Could his first name be Tobias??
Kay
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Possibly Milne for the surname?
Isobel
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So long as your suggestion isn't based on this...: https://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=46943584&ref=acom
It was likely set up after a previous (and presumably incorrect) attempt at deciphering the name on this photo. The name Tobias Milne doesn't appear on the 1871 census or in any BMD records so I am discounting it.
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I hadn't seen the reference you posted. It is a puzzle
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It is interesting if you both came up with that unprompted though! ;D
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I assume the photographer was London UK based, but I wonder if perhaps the photographer mounted a post mortem photo initially taken somewhere outside of England, perhaps by some other professional photographer, so I am suggesting a possible reason for the death to not be found via GRO indexes... ?
http://paulfrecker.com/pictureDetails.cfm?pagetype=library&typeID=1&ID=3764
I read the March date as 10th (as I would expect the number '9' should have a long tail as long as the '7' in the year 1875)
On first reading of the handwriting I thought the surname was MILE or MILES, I don't see 'k' and I don't see 'n' in that word. I think the third letter may also be considered as a poorly formed 'r' but not a 'k'.
JM
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I hadn't seen the reference either. Just thought it looked like Milne.
Isobel
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I can't stop seeing Tokie Mike or Mile, but I am sure that is not right. :-\
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I hadn't realised that the actual photo on reverse was a 'post mortem' one of a child until I inadvertently viewed it when clicking through to a site on google, so appreciate now why you only posted the back of it. Perhaps a 'warning' in the thread title will prevent folks, when working on the search, from doing as I did (or at least give them the chance to choose to view it or not).
Regarding the first name, I read it, before seeing others thoughts or any of the web links, as 'Tobie', and wonder if perhaps this was a family 'pet' name for him, with perhaps Tobias as part of his full name, but not necessarily his first name.
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The dates are 1871 to 1875.
I was curious about what was on the front of the photo. Can you please provide a link?
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The dates are 1871 to 1875.
Yes, but not having come across and/or remembered about the Victorian 'fad' for 'post mortem' photos of children, I had assumed it was a picture of a living child, that had been sent to someone to remember him by and let them know of his death.
Whilst the original post did say I won't tell you its subject matter (perhaps you can guess from the 'In loving memory of...
the hint was perhaps not clear enough.
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It does say born 1871. Died 1875. ;)
Are you able to provide a link please? If not, I will do some searching later.
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The link is in post #6 on the previous page.
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Looking at other letters for similarities I see the 'ie' in died is similar to the last 2 letters of the name. I can also see a similarity between the H in March and what could be either a B or an H in the name.
Tobie is as good a guess as any other but I would then thought Toby would have been a preferred spelling.
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My thoughts also were Tobie Milne.
Could be as scotsmum has suggested that Tobie was a pet name.
Strange that we are all having no joy finding a candidate.
Are we sure the child was male?
Looby :)
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I'm wondering if it's .....'s Mite (as in wee child) - in which case finding a name may be almost impossible.
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Could it be 'Jobie' as in a pet name of Job? There is a christening registration for 19th February 1871, York / Guisborough for Job Taylor Miles at FamilySearch. It would tie in with what appears to be a birth date of January 26th, 1871 on the card (possibly!)
Jobie is also, though a little unusual, a girl's name
Alex
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The link is in post #6 on the previous page.
Thank you. I missed that ...
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Ruling one out: I had a look at Florence Lucy Miles, who died in Islington Mar qtr 1875 aged 4 (so age and location match). However, she was born on 26 Sep 1870 according to her baptism record.
Her death was also earlier - she was buried 22 Jan 1875.
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Could it be 'Jobie' as in a pet name of Job? There is a christening registration for 19th February 1871, York / Guisborough for Job Taylor Miles at FamilySearch. It would tie in with what appears to be a birth date of January 26th, 1871 on the card (possibly!)
Jobie is also, though a little unusual, a girl's name
Alex
Still marked as living in the 1901 census, so that rules that out.
It's a shame I can't simply find a list all deaths registered on March 10th 1875, I could rule them out one by one.
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I'm wondering if it's .....'s Mite (as in wee child) - in which case finding a name may be almost impossible.
Just had another look, and I think I can make it out as Lotties Mite.
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To add to the mix,
I thought it looked like John Miles :-\
Annie
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So long as your suggestion isn't based on this...: https://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=46943584&ref=acom
It was likely set up after a previous (and presumably incorrect) attempt at deciphering the name on this photo. The name Tobias Milne doesn't appear on the 1871 census or in any BMD records so I am discounting it.
I think it may be worth requesting a photo of the MI as I would assume this to be where the info. with names/dates (which match perfectly) were found?
Annie
Added I don't see any info. as to where the grave is/which cemetery :-\
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With Annie here, I thought John Miles too.
Claire
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So long as your suggestion isn't based on this...: https://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=46943584&ref=acom
It was likely set up after a previous (and presumably incorrect) attempt at deciphering the name on this photo. The name Tobias Milne doesn't appear on the 1871 census or in any BMD records so I am discounting it.
I think it may be worth requesting a photo of the MI as I would assume this to be where the info. with names/dates (which match perfectly) were found?
Annie
Added I don't see any info. as to where the grave is/which cemetery :-\
I don't think it's based on a grave - I think it's based on someone's reading of the words on the back of this photo.
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It's a shame I can't simply find a list all deaths registered on March 10th 1875, I could rule them out one by one.
The date on the card is surely the date of death, which is not necessarily same as that on which the death was registered.
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It's a shame I can't simply find a list all deaths registered on March 10th 1875, I could rule them out one by one.
The date on the card is surely the date of death, which is not necessarily same as that on which the death was registered.
Also bearing in mind the mess I've discovered some of my family made with birth/death dates, please remember that we don't know who wrote on reverse of photo and we don't know when it was written.
Looby
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I don't think it's based on a grave - I think it's based on someone's reading of the words on the back of this photo.
Thanks avm,
I was unaware that info. on findagrave was not taken from MI's or burial records!
Another site with a heap of 'mish/mash' info.
However, it may be worth contacting the contributor to ask some questions :-\
Annie
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I don't think it's based on a grave - I think it's based on someone's reading of the words on the back of this photo.
Thanks avm,
I was unaware that info. on findagrave was not taken from MI's or burial records!
Another site with a heap of 'mish/mash' info.
However, it may be worth contacting the contributor to ask some questions :-\
Annie
I was going to post earlier as I don't understand Findagrave site - as you say Annie, I thought it was information from a grave. I also wondered how PTRACER was in possession of a photograph but didn't recognise the name but then realised that it may have been acquired at a sale etc.
However, I have now noticed that there are several references to the photo online including a long published article which I came across by searching with the photographer's name.
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Yes, I'm writing a university thesis on post-mortem photography, so I'm trying to track down anything with names, dates of birth/death and so on to understand more about them and their family.
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Thanks for the explanation.
It is odd that nothing can be found.
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If the birth date is January, as seems possible, then the J is formed very differently from the first letter of the name.
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Could first name be 'Tobin' and the second name not the surname but a second forename? Are we all agreed it's a boy?
One 'i' is not dotted [see 'loving'] but I do not think any of the other dots are extraneous, so to me the first, second names & 'died' all have a definite 'i' in. So we have XoXiX.
Birth registration, if any, should be in Mar quarter 1871 & death registration, if any, could be in Mar or Jun quarter 1875.
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Looking at the image, I think the child could be female.
Another thought is, that if the photo was remounted as suggested earlier and maybe details from none UK records, as the writing is in English it is more likely written by someone with English as a first language. :-\
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Looking at the image, I think the child could be female.
That's what I thought too, but it's difficult to be sure.
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For what it is worth, the photographer William Samuel Atwood appears to have operated from the 113 Pentonville Rd address 1870-1879, so was based there at the relevant time.
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The 'B' in Born doesn't look very typically English to me, but I can't think what it would be other than a B.
As mentioned above, I wondered if the character following the 'o' in the forename was a 'tt' rather than a 'b', because a cursive 'b' as usually seen in England has the loop written in an anti-clockwise direction, with a link to the next letter from the top of the loop. There's a slight crossing at the bottom of the loop here where the link to the next letter is made (hence my suggestion of 'tt'), but there's something similar in the 'B' of Born.
So maybe it could be a 'b' in the forename, but the writer might not have been English/British? In fact the 'B' of Born almost looks like a 'G', which made me wonder if the writer was, say, German, and started to write Geboren (= born) but then changed it.
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Following on from your suggestions arthurk it does look like a 'tt'
What about Lottie - Charlotte - which I think has been suggested
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Following on from your suggestions arthurk it does look like a 'tt'
What about Lottie - Charlotte - which I think has been suggested
Yes, that was me, and I still think it looks like Lottie. But the same little crossing in the 'B' means I'm not 100% certain.
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Yes I was puzzled about the 'B' - perhaps then someone writing to an English speaking person rather than by.
I can see Lottie now as a possibility but it's very difficult.
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Maybe it's not a B but a continuation of the child's name
In loving memory of
?? ??
HORN 26 Jan 1871
Died 10 March 1875
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I have no doubt that the word immediately before the dates is 'Born'.
That H-like shape appears on an 1873 marriage certificate I have, where it looks the groom was a 'Hachelor' and the marriage was in 'Herkshire'. I've also seen PRs for that parish (not available online) and the clergyman wrote his 'B' that way every time.
Carol
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I have no doubt that the word immediately before the dates is 'Born'.
Without doubt.
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I keep coming back to this as it is very puzzling.
I think there are a few discernable letters-:
?o?ie Mi??
Given that the B of born, which I agree is definitely a B, is formed unusually, I am wondering if what looks like a T for the first name might be something completely different? But what? :-\
Carol A3 - in the documentation you have seen with this style of writing, can you see a letter which looks like this "T"? (and is it a "T" in your documents?)
Like many others, I have looked on freebmd for births and deaths, also on Ancestry burial and baptismal records, but found nothing that looks likely. I also checked the 1871 census as the child should be there, but either found too many matches or no matches using wild cards. Maybe someone else might spot the name on the 1871 census?
Others have suggested that the writing looks "foreign" - as no records have been found using the regular channels, it crossed my mind that the family might be non conformists or perhaps Jewish? :-\
Even the sex of the child is ambiguous.
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Conundrum indeed Ruskie!
The Miss Marple in me really wants to solve this one, but like everyone else I can't find a candidate.
I would agree with ?o?ie Mi??? - the end of the surname (if indeed that's what it is) is a bit of a scrawl.
I had wondered if the child was a girl :-\ , but the wee soul :'( could be either sex.
Also wondered if the child could have been born abroad or Ireland ??
I don't know much about post-mortem photographs but I would assume there would be a bit of expense connected to this in the 1870s. So are we looking for an affluent family ? Or am I jumping to conclusions.
Looby
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The handwriting looks very much like my (very English) grandmother's, I don't think it's a foreign hand, although not being able to find the name in the BMD records is strange.
When I first saw this, I immediately read the first name as Josie. I know the 'J' is different from January & the middle letter doesn't look like s - but then the B of born looks odd too. I must admit when I was taught joined-up writing I wrote T like the initial letter of the name & J like the first letter of January so I've no idea why my brain says it's Josie.
Added - could it start with F?
???
Pat
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Not necessarily an affluent family I don't think Looby. They may have spent everything they had on the photograph .... :(
I originally thought the child was male. Then, looking at the hair, I thought female. Now I am undecided. I would have thought a girl would have her hair neatly tied up, and a boy may have had his arranged differently ... although the hair has been cared for it looks quite puffy and unusual. :-\
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I'm tending towards girl. Does anyone else see what might be a ribbon at about hairline level, just visible at the temples?
This is a really baffling conundrum. One would think the place of death must have been near-ish to the photographer's address, as presumably time was of the essence in this genre of photography. But my (rather sad) trawl of deaths of 4 yr olds in Holborn and neighbouring districts in Mar qtr 1875 has not yielded any obvious candidates.
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On the B in born and what possibilities it might be, its only a slight thing but I am going with B.
In both the B for Born and the middle letter the writer has curled back inwards, yet in the H in March and in 'the' the letter end directly proceeds away.
I agree the J in Jan is different and I would love to make an argument that it was a different writer as the ink looks different, but then it does on 'March' as well.
I am confident the last name is M-I-L-* as the L in loving and this word are similar. I wonder if the last letter is a final L
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In common with others I can only see Tobie Milne....I can't see anything else that makes sense...I also think the child is a boy as they have a more prominent brow than girls. I also agree with Ruskie that the family would not necessarily be affluent....this was common practise in Victorian times as it would be the only reminder they had of the child if no previous photos existed.
Carol
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Thanks for the info re- the financial status of families who wished to have a post mortem photo as a keepsake.
Another suggestion - and apologies if this has been suggested already.
Is it possible that the name beginning with M......is in fact not a surname but a middle name?
If this photo was being kept as a memento by a parent or sibling perhaps they wrote the youngster's forenames?
Looby
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Possibly a red herring and I cannot find this child on 1871 Census but -
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:2X4R-9SM
Simeon Ragers T Mills born Jan/Feb/Mar 1871 Islington.
There is a death https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:2JK3-LGM
Simeon Mills age 4 Jan/Feb/Mar 1875 at Axminster, Devon ::) :-\
Don't know if these are the same boy.
And Axminster not exactly handy for a post mortem photograph by an Islington photographer. But as he is the closest I have found I thought I would point him out.
Looby :)
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Well, here's my current thoughts on this conundrum...
I wonder if any the following helps … these are my thoughts after studying the handwriting and looking back at the many examples I have of the handwriting of six of my great grandparents (born in the 1840s and 1850s in NSW Australia, including one who was forced to write 'right handed').
Please, let’s accept that it is all written in the same hand, at one session, using a quill pen that needs frequent refilling. Perhaps the inkwell was almost empty for the writer dipped that pen many times.
So, starting with the ‘easy’ letters of the two words at the third line.
let us look at the Capital M in “Memory” and March” …. To me this confirms that the second word starts with that same capital. M
Looking at the fifth line (‘died’) we can see that that M is clearly followed by the letter ‘i’ . YES, there’s a ‘dot’ missing in the word ‘loving’ at line one.
Look at the word ‘loving’ again … and at the first letter the ‘l’ …. Agh …. It is similar to the next letter so now we have Mil
Go down to ‘died’ again and we have the ‘e’ that is also found back at “Memory” ….So now we have the first FOUR LETTERS in that name ….. we have MILE
It is possible that there is a fifth letter, but the writer ‘ran out of room’ on the card. I think there’s only FOUR letters, …. The writer seems to have run on tails (dags/ tags ?) ’ at the end of many words where the final letter ends eg “In” "Born” “died” and “March”
Now to the more difficult first word of that third line.
There’s either five or six letters. I think FIVE …. (see earlier comments re tags at end on words)
There is NO capital letter to compare with this initial (capital) letter. I read it as a capital T, but it could also be a J or an L or less likely an F or an S.
The second letter is an ‘o’ (as in “Born” and “Memory” and “loving”)
The third letter is a ‘b’ (NOT a ‘k’ or an ‘h’ ) It is poorly formed, the writer was too lazy to take the pen back to ‘join it up’ before moving on to the next letters, the ‘ie’ as in 'died'.
So to me the elusive two words are Tobie Mile and so my questions rush on …. Is there any dc showing up as registered in the first or second quarter of 1875 at GRO’s indexes. I notice just two for MILE as a surname and immediately eliminate the one for a 46 year old chap.
http://www.freebmd.org.uk/
Could Tobie be Robie? I revisit the handwriting …. NOPE that is NOT an “R” which likely would be as difficult for this scribe to write as the “B” in Born …. ::)
That’s where I am ‘up to’ ::) ::) ???
Of course, Tobie Mile may well both be given names.... ::) and the death may not have occurred within the GRO's realm.
JM
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I came to the same conclusion as majm, rendering it as Tobie Mile, so I searched GRO indexes and 1871 census using Tob* Mil* and using the dates as given and haven't been able to find a thing other than the find a grave reference.
If we go back to the theory that it might be a re-mounted picture then it could have come from anywhere, Scotland, Ireland, Canada, America, India, Australia etc. sent to a relative "back home".
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I have to say, I can't fathom why the 2 dates differ in the way they were written i.e. the Born date & Died date, different formats ???
Probably of no significance but noticeable.
Annie
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Born Jany 26th 71
died
March 10th 1875
I think the abbreviated "Jany" would be due to insufficient space to write January in full, and then by writing 'died' on a line by itself, there was then sufficient space to write March in full. (Same reasoning with the writing for the years too)
I do not see more than one hand writing on that reverse side of the card. :)
JM
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Possibly a red herring and I cannot find this child on 1871 Census but -
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:2X4R-9SM
Simeon Ragers T Mills born Jan/Feb/Mar 1871 Islington.
There is a death https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:2JK3-LGM
Simeon Mills age 4 Jan/Feb/Mar 1875 at Axminster, Devon ::) :-\
Don't know if these are the same boy.
And Axminster not exactly handy for a post mortem photograph by an Islington photographer. But as he is the closest I have found I thought I would point him out.
Looby :)
GRO online shows the birth reg as Simeon Rogers Thomas Mills, mmn Chant.
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Would boys of 4 yrs still have long hair?
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Yes, boys of 4 years of age in the 1870s could well have 'long' hair.
JM
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Thanks majm,
I wasn't sure and photos I checked all seemed to have shorter hair.
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https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:2X4R-9SM
Simeon Ragers T Mills born Jan/Feb/Mar 1871 Islington.
Looby :)
GRO online shows the birth reg as Simeon Rogers Thomas Mills, mmn Chant.
Och, I hoped the T might stand for Tobias/Tobie ;D Never mind.
I agree with majm - only one hand writing on the reverse of the card.
Looby :) :)