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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: muriellecampbell on Wednesday 15 March 17 14:15 GMT (UK)
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My ancestor John Lonsdale is listed as being born in England from National Archives: Census of Ireland Year 1901. He is living in Antrim, Court Ward, Sherbrook Street with his wife Catherine and family.
Census of Ireland, 1911, he is identified as being born in Co. Antrim. A family member has told us that John Lonsdale may have been born in Manchester, England but we have no proof.
Where do I try to find John Lonsdale? I can't locate his marriage certificate that may help solve the mystery. Please help? :(
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Welcome to RootsChat! ;D
When was he born?
Have you looked at FreeBMD (.org.uk) for his birth?
Or LancashireBMD for just Lancashire births?
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Do you know Catherine's maiden name and DOB?
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1911 census gives John Lonsdale as age 59- married 29 years-
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Antrim/Court_Ward/Sherbrook_Street/149984
age 50 in 1901 census-
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Antrim/Court_Ward/Sherbook_Street/947148
Unfortunately this places his birth before the start of civil registration in Ireland.
Birth certificate for son Stanley lists mother as Catherine Matchet-
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1908/01669/1664650.pdf
Can't see marriage in Ireland yet.
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There is a birth for Catherine Matchett born 1864 Belfast.
Marriage for Catherine Matchett to John Lousdale 1881 4Q Belfast.
Could this be who you are looking for?
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Catherine Lonsdale died 1932-
https://ssl.belfastcity.gov.uk/burialsearch/BurialRecordDetails.aspx?RecordID=6255.9638
John Lonsdale died 1926-
https://ssl.belfastcity.gov.uk/burialsearch/BurialRecordDetails.aspx?RecordID=6221.2693
Looks like 4 of their children buried in same plot.
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Welcome to rootschat muriellecampbell
My OH's GGF 1911 census return states he was born in Dublin and the 1901 states India
He was born in India
I don't know why they differ for definite, it may be because
he was living with his mother in 1901 who would have said exactly where he was born
maybe he said Dublin as he didn't want to ask questions about India
maybe he wasn't present when the census enumerator came around and the person filling out the form said where he thought he was from
I'll never know but I am sure that he is the same man
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I have seen different variations of John Lonsdale such as Lausdale as it appears in his marriage to Catherine Matchett in 1881. I'm curious of the 4Q Belfast. What does that mean?
Also in the Belfast City Council burial search there is John Lonsdale and his wife Catherine Matchett with 4 children in the same burial plot. The children were listed as Priscilla, Walter, William and Alice. We believe that Alice may have died as a result of a fire. How would I find a newspaper article identifying the truth of her death on January 13, 1903? Or it is another child listed in this burial plot? Would love to hear more. :-\
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To the kind persons who have provided some help or verification for my ancestor John Lonsdale. That is a first for me finding out that John could have been born in Dublin or India. I would need to know more if that is truly the case for John. That is very intriguing to me. Could someone verify for me? :o
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4Q Belfast
In birth registration index it is 1Q, 2Q 3Q, 4Q so it is a quarter of the year, so 4Q is October, November, December that he was REGISTERED , he may have been born in one of those months or from the quarter before ( 3Q) and registered late. Belfast indicates Belfast area
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Where does 'finding out that John could have been born in Dublin or India.' come from? perhaps you are mis-reading myluck!'s example about their ancestor?
Also in the Belfast City Council burial search there is John Lonsdale and his wife Catherine Matchett with 4 children in the same burial plot. The children were listed as Priscilla, Walter, William and Alice. We believe that Alice may have died as a result of a fire. How would I find a newspaper article identifying the truth of her death on January 13, 1903? Or it is another child listed in this burial plot? Would love to hear more. :-\
Here's Alice's death certificate-
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1903/05673/4598228.pdf
and her birth-
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1896/02175/1823670.pdf
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I think 'Lousdale' in the marriage index might be a mis-reading of Lonsdale. Notice the way Lonsdale is written on Priscilla's birth certificate- the 'u' could be mistaken from'n'
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1893/02285/1857755.pdf
Priscilla's death-
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1898/05823/4648886.pdf
Walter's birth-
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1887/02563/1947935.pdf
Walter's death-
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1917/05204/4438226.pdf
William's birth-
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1899/02021/1775524.pdf
William's death-
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1902/05689/4603477.pdf
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What does OH GGS (Census records) mean ???
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Would it be possible to see if anyone can locate the parents of Catherine Matchett who married John Lonsdale (Lausdale). I have been on ancestry and I could not find any records of her parents through family trees, etc. Any help would be useful so I can get past the brick wall in finding her parents.
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OH = other half
GGF great grandfather
you'll soon learn the abbreviations used in family history and rootschat but don't be afraid to ask those you can't decipher!!
I am sure others are looking for Catherine but we can also give you some websites where you can look for yourself.
Being born in India may indicate a father in the army.
See reply #4; the marriage record will have Catherine's father's name & occupation. irishgenealogy.ie do not have the image of the marriage record, so you would have to buy the certificate. You can get a research copy for 4€ using info from
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/en/civil-records/help/i-want-to-get-a-copy-of-a-certificate-what-do-i-do
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Another person in my family tree that I can't find any more information for is Mary Ann Baillie. She is listed in the 1911 Census as living at House 11 in Arkwright Street (Court Ward, Antrim) . She was married ca 1895 to Alexander Boyles born Feb. 16, 1874. Mary Ann Baillie was born on June 21, 1877 according to family records and died on May 3, 1938 in Belfast. The 1911 Census identifies her birthplace as Scotland and the 1901 birthplace was Glasgow, Scotland. I have hit a brick wall trying to locate Mary Ann Baillie's parents. Can anyone help finding who her parents are? :(
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Another person in my family tree that I can't find any more information for is Mary Ann Baillie. She is listed in the 1911 Census as living at House 11 in Arkwright Street (Court Ward, Antrim) . She was married ca 1895 to Alexander Boyles born Feb. 16, 1874. Mary Ann Baillie was born on June 21, 1877 according to family records and died on May 3, 1938 in Belfast. The 1911 Census identifies her birthplace as Scotland and the 1901 birthplace was Glasgow, Scotland. I have hit a brick wall trying to locate Mary Ann Baillie's parents. Can anyone help finding who her parents are? :(
As this request is about different people, you'd be better off posting a new thread on this topic on the Lanarkshire board; put Mary Ann Baillie's name in the title.
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Continuing to provide more information re Mary Ann Baillie born June 21, 1877. Her husband Alexander Boyles born Feb. 16, 1874 and Mary Ann Baillie had many children but I am going to focus on their daughter Elizabeth Baillie Boyles born 1902. Elizabeth married Thomas Lonsdale also born 1902. I have a marriage certificate for Elizabeth and Thomas married November 3rd, 1922. A witness at the wedding is James Coulter Baillie. I have done some research on James Coulter Baillie and I believe that Mary Ann Baillie is her older brother but I have no proof. James Coulter Baillie was born ca 1873 Co. Antrim. He lived at house 40 in Crosby Street (Wood Vale Ward, Antrim) according to Census of Ireland 1911. James's father was Samuel Heenan Baillie born 1851 in Belfast. Samuel married Mary Ann Coulter born 1855. It appears that they had a child Margaret who was born in Scotland. I'm curious if the family moved for a few years to Scotland and that would be the reason that Mary Ann and Margaret were born there. Can any one agree to my idea that Mary Ann could be the child of Samuel Heenan Baillie and Mary Ann Coulter or am I totally mistaken? I have not found any family trees identifying Mary Ann Baillie as belonging to the family of Samuel and Mary Ann Coulter. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
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Are you certain you have the correct John Lonsdale? The name John Lonsdale is very common and provides many records through to quite recently (1950's), so you need to be very sure of your dates and place of birth in order to narrow the search down. It would also help if you can connect them without doubt to relatives you know for a fact are your ancestors. If your family has said he was born in Manchester, and this is a fact they are certain of, then that is the John Lonsdale you should be following. If you find John Lonsdales with conflicting birth dates/birth places, then they are likely not the person you are looking for. You have to careful not to merge different families into one tree. But if your family is guessing at his birthplace and date then without verifiable corroborating evidence your search will lead you down many paths, many will be wrong.
Within the time frame you mentioned, I have found 3 census records in 1911, showing 3 different John Lonsdales, 3 different birth dates/birthplaces/residence, but all having a wife named Catherine. Quite a coincidence to be sure. One of them is born in Ireland c. 1852, the other two are in England. One of those is Manchester, Lancashire, born c. 1858, the other born c. 1877 in Liverpool. You would have to look at the census records and see whether the names of any children are your relatives. There was also a strong tradition of naming children after themselves or their parents and siblings, so again it can muddy the waters.
Looking further into their marriage records, the Catherines all have a different maiden name.
Confusing as all heck, isn't it? ::) Start with what you know and work back from there. Pay close attention to dates and places so you don't find yourself running down the wrong path. Good luck!
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I think you might not have read all the replies posted on this thread yet?
Another person in my family tree that I can't find any more information for is Mary Ann Baillie. ...
As this request is about different people, you'd be better off posting a new thread on this topic on the Lanarkshire board; put Mary Ann Baillie's name in the title.
Marriage took place in Belfast and lists her father's name & occupation-
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1895/10532/5836123.pdf
You really do need to start a new topic looking for her family.
There was also this question I asked earlier-
Where does 'finding out that John could have been born in Dublin or India.' come from? perhaps you are mis-reading myluck!'s example about their ancestor?
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Do you know Catherine's maiden name and DOB?
Matchett - this info is from family information.
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So new at this that I need some guidance. Thank you for your help.
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http://www.rootschat.com/forum/lanarkshire/
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Welcome to rootschat muriellecampbell
My OH's GGF 1911 census return states he was born in Dublin and the 1901 states India
He was born in India
I don't know why they differ for definite, it may be because
he was living with his mother in 1901 who would have said exactly where he was born
maybe he said Dublin as he didn't want to ask questions about India
maybe he wasn't present when the census enumerator came around and the person filling out the form said where he thought he was from
I'll never know but I am sure that he is the same man
Sorry if I misread your reply. It appears that there is an "India" in Ireland. I did not know. Would that help understand why I was so confused.
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There isn't an India in Ireland :-\ Myluck! was just explaining that her relative is listed as born in India in one census and as born in Dublin in another census.
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Apologies for causing confusion
Yes my comment was that I have a relative of my other halfs that has two different places of birth.
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There is a birth for Catherine Matchett born 1864 Belfast.
Marriage for Catherine Matchett to John Lousdale 1881 4Q Belfast.
Could this be who you are looking for?
Yes, I believe that they are the right couple.
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Are you certain you have the correct John Lonsdale? The name John Lonsdale is very common and provides many records through to quite recently (1950's), so you need to be very sure of your dates and place of birth in order to narrow the search down. It would also help if you can connect them without doubt to relatives you know for a fact are your ancestors. If your family has said he was born in Manchester, and this is a fact they are certain of, then that is the John Lonsdale you should be following. If you find John Lonsdales with conflicting birth dates/birth places, then they are likely not the person you are looking for. You have to careful not to merge different families into one tree. But if your family is guessing at his birthplace and date then without verifiable corroborating evidence your search will lead you down many paths, many will be wrong.
Within the time frame you mentioned, I have found 3 census records in 1911, showing 3 different John Lonsdales, 3 different birth dates/birthplaces/residence, but all having a wife named Catherine. Quite a coincidence to be sure. One of them is born in Ireland c. 1852, the other two are in England. One of those is Manchester, Lancashire, born c. 1858, the other born c. 1877 in Liverpool. You would have to look at the census records and see whether the names of any children are your relatives. There was also a strong tradition of naming children after themselves or their parents and siblings, so again it can muddy the waters.
Looking further into their marriage records, the Catherines all have a different maiden name.
Confusing as all heck, isn't it? ::) Start with what you know and work back from there. Pay close attention to dates and places so you don't find yourself running down the wrong path. Good luck!
Catherine Matchet/Matchett is definitely the right spouse for John Lonsdale. From the Census 1901 and 1911 John Lonsdale was born in ca 1851. He was about 13-15 years older than Catherine.
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I too have an ancestor who was seemingly born in Ireland & Scotland on different census records.
I was also unaware of a Catholic connection having trawled scotlandspeople.gov.uk not finding him nor could I find him in Ireland.
A great RC researcher (MonicaL) found him in Catholic Records in Scotland, somewhere I hadn't given thought to as all his descendants were Protestant i.e. Church of England/Church of Ireland.
He obviously chose the religion of his 2nd wife who was my g g/mother (Great Grandmother)
Annie
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Best to keep things on thread so everyone can help ;)
Richard Matchett, wife Caroline, etc.- 1911 says married 26 years, 9 children/4 living
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Antrim/Court_Ward/Sherbook_Street/947150
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Antrim/Court_Ward/Sherbrook_Street/149950
Birth of son Richard (1900) gives mother as Caroline Morris but birth registered by Catherine Lonsdale, 5 Sherbrook St.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1900/01977/1761873.pdf