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Some Special Interests => Travelling People => Topic started by: Kevin61 on Saturday 04 March 17 12:16 GMT (UK)

Title: Albert BRAZIL& Phoebe SMITH, Croydon, Surrey
Post by: Kevin61 on Saturday 04 March 17 12:16 GMT (UK)
Hoping to find help tracing ancestors of

        Albert Brazil b 1889, Surrey d 1975, Surrey - son of William

        Phoebe Smith b 1891 d 1945, Croydon, Surrey - dau of Charles

        m 1915, Croydon, Surrey

Children: Councilette b 1910 d 1986
              Alice b 1914 d 1915
              Phoebe b 1915 d 1976
              Albert b 1920 d 1977     
   
Phoebe's sisters:  Alice b 1881, m 1914, Henry/ Harry Scott b 1878
                          ??? Counsellette  b 1894 d 1933, m 1915 Henry James b 1890

Any help would be gratefully accepted as we have hit a brick wall and researching from Australia is a tad difficult.

Many thanks,

Kevin & Kathy


Title: Re: Albert BRAZIL& Phoebe SMITH, Croydon, Surrey
Post by: rosie99 on Saturday 04 March 17 12:31 GMT (UK)
Christ Church, Croydon
15 April 1915
Albert Brasil age 26 occ Carman - 41 Priory Road - father William Brasil occ Hawker
Phoebe Smith age 23 -41 Priory Road - father Charles Smith occ Hawker
Title: Re: Albert BRAZIL& Phoebe SMITH, Croydon, Surrey
Post by: Kevin61 on Saturday 04 March 17 12:36 GMT (UK)
Thanks rosie99,
We do have this info but having trouble going any further backwards.....
Kathy
Title: Re: Albert BRAZIL& Phoebe SMITH, Croydon, Surrey
Post by: KGarrad on Saturday 04 March 17 12:37 GMT (UK)
There is a family called Brazell - but no forenames?
1901 census at Ash & Normandy, Surrey.
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X9XQ-3RF
Title: Re: Albert BRAZIL& Phoebe SMITH, Croydon, Surrey
Post by: rosie99 on Saturday 04 March 17 12:42 GMT (UK)
I posted the marriage to show abode & occupations in case it helped us find them   ;)
Title: Re: Albert BRAZIL& Phoebe SMITH, Croydon, Surrey
Post by: Kevin61 on Saturday 04 March 17 12:53 GMT (UK)
Thanks again rosie99
Title: Re: Albert BRAZIL& Phoebe SMITH, Croydon, Surrey
Post by: Kevin61 on Saturday 04 March 17 12:55 GMT (UK)
thanks KGarrad,
will have a look
Title: Re: Albert BRAZIL& Phoebe SMITH, Croydon, Surrey
Post by: rosie99 on Saturday 04 March 17 13:08 GMT (UK)
Is this Phoebe's sisters baptism
Kounsilette Smith
born 20 November 1892
bapt 15 October 1893
Father Charles Smith
Mother Aneseth Smith
Abode - van  - the arches ........
Battersea Christ Church
Title: Re: Albert BRAZIL& Phoebe SMITH, Croydon, Surrey
Post by: Kevin61 on Saturday 04 March 17 13:14 GMT (UK)
possibly... I know names are handed down through families so I assume?? this is a sister. My husband's grandmother, Councilette Brazil "married out" so most interaction with her family was lost
Title: Re: Albert BRAZIL& Phoebe SMITH, Croydon, Surrey
Post by: rosie99 on Saturday 04 March 17 13:26 GMT (UK)
You have already mentioned her as marrying Henry James
Title: Re: Albert BRAZIL& Phoebe SMITH, Croydon, Surrey
Post by: Kevin61 on Saturday 04 March 17 13:30 GMT (UK)
wasn't totally sure of the connection ???
Title: Re: Albert BRAZIL& Phoebe SMITH, Croydon, Surrey
Post by: rosie99 on Saturday 04 March 17 18:33 GMT (UK)
I can't see an online marriage to Henry James which may have clarified that she was a sister of Phoebe.
Title: Re: Albert BRAZIL& Phoebe SMITH, Croydon, Surrey
Post by: Mabel Bagshawe on Saturday 04 March 17 19:17 GMT (UK)
You have already mentioned her as marrying Henry James

No - that's Councilette Smith assumed sister of Phoebe. It's Councilette Brazil, daughter of Phoebe who married out
Title: Re: Albert BRAZIL& Phoebe SMITH, Croydon, Surrey
Post by: Mabel Bagshawe on Saturday 04 March 17 19:26 GMT (UK)
I'm intrigued as to why  Councilette , daughter of Albert and Phoebe, is baptised in 1910 under the surname Bradley
Title: Re: Albert BRAZIL& Phoebe SMITH, Croydon, Surrey
Post by: Kevin61 on Saturday 04 March 17 20:06 GMT (UK)
I think baptism as Bradley was a mishearing or mistranscribing by the vicar
Title: Re: Albert BRAZIL& Phoebe SMITH, Croydon, Surrey
Post by: Mabel Bagshawe on Saturday 04 March 17 20:08 GMT (UK)
THis is speculative, but there's a William and Caroline Brazil(l) whi baptise a son John in the Croydon area - William is a hawker

This could be them in 1881 - a group in a travelling van in East Grinstead. It's not clear whose the grandchildren are, as the image on ancestry doesn;t include the page they are on. Places of birth generally not known

John Brazill    69
Prescilla Brazill    53
Matthew Brazill    34 - son
Selina Brazill    32 - daughter in law
William Brazill    24 - son
Caroline Brazill    22 - daughter in law
Cordelia Brazill    13 - Granddaughter
James Brazill    11 - grandson
Henry Brazill    3 - grandson
Fanny Brazill    2 - Granddaughter
Moses Brazill    1

RG11, 1056, 66,  20
Title: Re: Albert BRAZIL& Phoebe SMITH, Croydon, Surrey
Post by: Kevin61 on Saturday 04 March 17 20:15 GMT (UK)
I have spent months searching on ancestry but can't find Albert Brazil anywhere within the right time frame - could he have changed his name?
There are quite a few Brazil families in the Croydon/Mitcham area but I can't find a definitive  connection
Title: Re: Albert BRAZIL& Phoebe SMITH, Croydon, Surrey
Post by: Mabel Bagshawe on Saturday 04 March 17 20:31 GMT (UK)
Working on the assumption the younger grandchildren belong to the younger couple, Moses and Henry Brazil are registered with mmn Collins

There's a load of Brazells with mmn Collins in Islington - including an ALbert b 1890 - but this is another family

I think given the traveller backgruond they are going to be hard to pin down and there's a high chance of surnames changing
Title: Re: Albert BRAZIL& Phoebe SMITH, Croydon, Surrey
Post by: Kevin61 on Saturday 04 March 17 21:07 GMT (UK)
Thanks for your input Mabel.
Kathy
Title: Re: Albert BRAZIL& Phoebe SMITH, Croydon, Surrey
Post by: rosie99 on Sunday 05 March 17 08:09 GMT (UK)
You have already mentioned her as marrying Henry James

No - that's Councilette Smith assumed sister of Phoebe. It's Councilette Brazil, daughter of Phoebe who married out

I am confused Mabel this is what I was referring to :-\

   
Phoebe's sisters:  Alice b 1881, m 1914, Henry/ Harry Scott b 1878
                          ??? Counsellette  b 1894 d 1933, m 1915 Henry James b 1890



Is this Phoebe's sisters baptism
Kounsilette Smith
born 20 November 1892
bapt 15 October 1893
Father Charles Smith
Mother Aneseth Smith
Abode - van  - the arches ........
Battersea Christ Church
Title: Re: Albert BRAZIL& Phoebe SMITH, Croydon, Surrey
Post by: Mabel Bagshawe on Sunday 05 March 17 14:00 GMT (UK)
sorry for any confusion - I read messages 8 (referring to Counselette B) and 9 (referring to Counselette S) as following on from each other, when perhaps they didn't