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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: TamlaDawn on Saturday 25 February 17 23:30 GMT (UK)
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Hello all,
I just registered this evening so forgive me if I am posting in the wrong area or something equally stupid :)
I am trying to find out any information about my nan's father. My nan is 95 in May and in frail health so I would love to be able to tell her anything concrete I can find on him .... and soon.
Nan has no memory of him and story has it he simply walked out and no one spoke of him after that.
All I really have on him for certain is that he married my nan's mum in 1917 aged 24, so I assume was born in or around 1893 ... from the wedding certificate I have his name and his father's name....and thats' STILL the only proof I have that he ever existed. I've searched all the records I can think of (Ancestry.co.uk) but cannot find him being born or dying, quite a trick!
Any tips gratefully received, thank you
TamlaDawn.
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Welcome to Rootschat, TamlaDawn
The only thing you've done wrong is you haven't given us his name or which country you are searching in! ;D ;D If you post with as much detail as possible someone will be able to help. Just don't mention your nan's name as she is still alive.
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Welcome to rootschat TamiaDawn.
You might be able to find him on the censuses too. Have you already tried that? As groom says, some names and places might help track him down.
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Thanks Groom :D
Sorry - that may help!
England!
His name on the wedding cert is Bertram James Watson...marrying Edith Field on 25th December 1917 at St John's Church, Highbury Vale
Thanks verrry much all!
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Who does he say was his father?
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His occupation might help, also that of his father. The names of the witnesses could also be useful, they are often family members.
If his father had been in the services then Bertram might have been born somewhere other than England.
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Okay, I've found the marriage ( for others looking) - father was Sydney (deceased) a Tailor.
Witnesses are both Fields, so not much help
Bertram was a secretary.
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Thanks Ruskie....and no luck with any census either :(
Am wondering if he switched his 1st and middle names about or something....such a guessing game at times isn't it!
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Thanks Nanny Jan - good point!
And yes, his father was Sydney - I can't find hind nor hair of him either...
Witnesses Fields as you have found, Nans Grandfather and Auntie....
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If his DOB and names are right, the only one born about that time was
Births Sep 1894
Watson Bertram James
Eastbourne 2b 71
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An online tree gives birth matching groom's find plus a death in 1960 in Brighton. He left a Will, probate to Florence Winifred Watson, widow.
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There is a tree on Ancestry that has that Bertram marrying Edith Field. They also have his death as 1960 Brighton.
Then if you look on the Government website, the National Probate Calendar, that one died 1st August 1960 and left a will. Probate was granted to his widow Florence Winifred Watson. So if it is him he may have committed bigamy unless he divorced his first wife!
Snap NJ!
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Marriages Jun 1956
PICKARD Florence W WATSON
WATSON Bertram PICKARD
Brighton 5h 183
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Hi TamlaDawn and welcome to RootsChat....you may want to consider that he went by the name of Bertie Cutts-Watson....later on...or it could be coincidence.
Edit....maybe not...his wife was Ethel.
Carol
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Hi TamlaDawn and welcome to RootsChat....you may want to consider that he went by the name of Bertie Cutts-Watson....later on...or it could be coincidence.
Carol
Didn't that one marry an Ethel Broad in 1915? I think also he was Bertie John
NAME: Bertie John Cutts-watson
BIRTH: Sep 1894
DEATH: Dec 1974
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Just edited my post Jan...on the iPad so not very quick or so easy to negotiate ::)
Carol
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Thanks all!
I found the Eastbourne Bertram too...followed him and found the marriage to Pickard (and no, he never divorced Edith tsk tsk!) and his death in 1960...however when I contacted the lady on Ancestry who had created him along with Pickard, she said that I had the wrong Bertram! She said her Bertram's father wasn't called Sydney, so I dropped it.
I think I may have inadvertently linked the 1960 death on Ancestry to the tree I made..I thought I had deleted that to save confusion but seems not, duh!
So I need to go back to this lady then and say look I think we DO share the same Bertram!?
ooh Treetotal - Bertie Cutts-Watson?! That's a new one....will investigate now thanks!
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I'm not sure about the one who died in Brighton - he seems to have been in Hove in 1939 with another wife! The only way to check would be to get his marriage to Florence and see if he gives his father as Sydney. Or, perhaps better, send for his birth certificate as if his father was Sydney not only would it confirm it was the right one, but would give his mother's name.
Added: Why not go back to the lady who has the tree and ask if she has either certificate so you can eliminate him? That would save you money!
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ooh Treetotal - Bertie Cutts-Watson?! That's a new one....will investigate now thanks!
See Carol and my posts, it isn't him.
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I can't find a match in 1939 can you Jan?
Carol
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No. The problem is, if he left his wife and child he may also have changed his name so he couldn't be found.
Have you got your grandmother's birth certificate TamlaDawn, does that give any more clues i.e occupation when she was born?
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If he is the Eastbourne one there's no MMN given on the GRO site, this generally indicates an illegitimate birth. You must consider he may have made up a father's name - it happened, to keep respectability
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I think there's something in these records to consider.
1901, Eastbourne. RG13; Piece: 883; Folio: 46; Page: 31
James Watson 73, Westham, Sussex
Edith Searle 35, dau, Westham
Ernest Watson 18, son, Westham
Bertram Searle 6, grandson, Eastbourne
Sidney Searle 5, grandson, Eastbourne
May (or Mary) Searle 3, granddaughter, Eastbourne
1891, Eastbourne, RG12; Piece: 774; Folio: 106; Page: 32
James Watson 63
Edith Watson 25
George Watson 24
Frederick Watson 18
Ernest F Watson 8
Marriages Dec 1895
Edith Watson, also listed Sydney John Searle.
My opinion is that as Bertram was born (1894) before Edith and Sydney married, he was registered Watson, Sydney Searle may not be his biological father.
SEARLE, SIDNEY ALBERT, MMN WATSON
GRO Reference: 1896 J Quarter in EASTBOURNE Volume 02B Page 74
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Why, I don't know, but this site doesn't allow us to post the 1911 census. Take a look yourself by searching for Sydney Albert Searle, born 1896 Eastbourne. He's with his father, but not his mother.
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This is Sydney snrs 2nd marriage.
Sep 1910, Sydney J Searle/Susana M Simmonds. Uckfield vol 2b page 283
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I may be wrong but the name Bertram would suggest the surname of a family member possibly on his father's maternal line if he was illegitimate (usually a wee clue) ;)
I have Bertram in my tree as a surname but would have to investigate where from as (from memory) they married into my line (I think) & I can't remember just now where from but was England.
Annie
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Crikey everyone you have made more headway with findings and/or possible theories in less than 24hrs than I've managed in a couple of months! I'm very grateful and shall go back to the other lady again, plus order the certs anyway, just for peace of mind.
Just hope I can wrap this up with a bit more clarity whilst nan is still with us! 😊
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Ooh I'm liking that theory Libby - Sydney John Searle's occupation also fits nicely as well. Great finds.
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I'm not sure about the one who died in Brighton - he seems to have been in Hove in 1939 with another wife! The only way to check would be to get his marriage to Florence and see if he gives his father as Sydney. Or, perhaps better, send for his birth certificate as if his father was Sydney not only would it confirm it was the right one, but would give his mother's name.
Added: Why not go back to the lady who has the tree and ask if she has either certificate so you can eliminate him? That would save you money!
Groom - I can't find anything about a potential other wife in Hove in 1939? Can you give me any pointers?
The lady on Ancestry (who I have mailed again today) has a photo of "her" Bertram on her tree..very odd to see him! I saw my nan today and showed her the pic which was lovely to be able to do. She said "yes I get the impression he was a bit of a rogue"! I thought....you don't know the half of it nan lol! :D :D
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The woman that Bertram is with in 1939 is described as married, but I can't find a marriage either, so perhaps they just lived together.
I'm getting a bit confused here - are you certain that the Eastbourne one is your Bertram? Why did the person with the tree say that he wasn't yours - if it is the tree I'm looking at, she doesn't have his parents, so why was she so sure?
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No I can't be certain that Eastbourne Bertie is the right one..all I had to go on was his full name (if he gave it correctly ) and a rough DOB from the marriage cert.
The lady with the tree said he couldn't be mine as her Bert had a different fathers name, not Sydney. But now we know that this may have not been the case anyway. She said he also had a daughter called Sheila. ..that still doesn't rule him out as mine though...
Are you able to help me with a name/tips where you found the info of the Hove lady? Maybe I can see if she ever had a daughter called Sheila ?
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Have we ruled out that he wasn't the Bertram J Watson who married Elsie Bowyer in 1913?
In 1933 Elsie Watson was granted probate in the estate of Mary Bowyer and was named as the wife of Bertram James Watson.
It seems quite a coincidence that the full name is exactly the same. Could he have married Edith Field bigamously?
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There;s a Sheila Watson born in Brighton 1931 - mothers maiden name Cinnamon
There's a Sheila Watson born in Eastbourne 1940 - mothers maiden name Page
Can't see a Watson marriage to either a Cinnamon or a Page
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The woman that Bertram is with in 1939 is described as married, but I can't find a marriage either, so perhaps they just lived together.
Just a thought - but it just says if they are married or not - not who to, so both married to other people wouldn't be a lie
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This is getting more and more complicated isn't it?
So could we be looking at:
Marriage to Elsie Bowyer in 1913 probably not the same man
Marriage to Edith Field in 1917
Poss marriage/living with an Annie pre war
Marriage to Florence Winnifred in 1956
Or are we looking at at least two different Bertrams?
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I would say the 1913 marriage is definitely worth looking into further as this & the 1917 marriage both have the same full name as Bertram James Watson.
I can see children born to Watson/Bowyer in 1915, 1920, 1923 & 1930, and then the probate record naming Elsie as wife of Bertram James Watson in 1933 - not found anything after that so far.
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The one married to Elsie is with her & the children in 1939 & gives a DoB of 29 Jan 1889, so could be the one born in Prescot, Lancs Q1 1889.
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I can see children born to Watson/Bowyer in 1915, 1920, 1923 & 1930,
That suggests they were still together - so unless he was with two woman at once, perhaps we can rule that one out, especially in view of Jomat's last post?
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Plus none of the Watson/Bowyer children are born on the South Coast
I suspect there are (at least) two seperate men we are dealing with
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The Hove Bertram (circa 1939) has him married to Anne and 3 closed records - presumably 3 children as born after 1917 with the 100 year ruling
Going back to my earlier suggestion with Sheila - suggested by the ancestry woman - (mmn Page) born 1940 (and therefore not on this register) I looked up for other Watson/Page births in the area
There is 1930. 1934 and 1937 - which could tie in with the 1939 register
There is also a corresponding Annie Page born at the right time not far from Eastbourne
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The Eastbourne Bertram can be found in 1911, search for BERTHAM Watson, born 1893 Eastbourne.
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The Eastbourne Bertram can be found in 1911, search for BERTHAM Watson, born 1893 Eastbourne.
In the right area to meet his future wife as well! It is looking more as if it is the right one. So, if he had children with Annie Page, even if they weren't married, that means TamlaDawn's grandmother has half siblings who could still possibly be alive.
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There;s a Sheila Watson born in Brighton 1931 - mothers maiden name Cinnamon
There's a Sheila Watson born in Eastbourne 1940 - mothers maiden name Page
Can't see a Watson marriage to either a Cinnamon or a Page
These people could be still living so be careful about giving the full names.
I spent a lot of time last night playing with name variations :-\ Curiouser and curiouser!!! ;D
Carol
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Do we know when Edith died?
If she dies shortly before 1956 (when he marries Florence) that could be more suggestion that he is the same one
It may be that the lady who has the tree on ancestry has him as a widow, assuming his first wife is Ann (or yet another unidentified lady) which is why she's sure this is a different Bertram
BTW in support of Bertram giving his stepfather's name one of my relatives did the same thing - he was tiny when his father died. I also have one who is illegitimate but know who the father was as there is a bastardy bond - on his marriage certificate it has his father's first name with his mothers surname - such a person never existed - whether he was covering up the illigitimacy or if the person recording just said 'what's your fathers first name?' - assuming the surname was the same
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That's a good point about Edith's' death. He may not have married Florence until after Edith died as they weren't divorced, that certificate would possibly confirm if it is the correct Bertram if it gave his father as Sydney. It may well be worth getting it.
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WOW everyone! You seriously all need to go into business and start charging! :D
Thank you so much for all of your information.
I have found the 1911 census for "Bertham" as you say, in the right area to meet Edith - she was working in Kensington as a domestic at that time I believe...
The ancestry lady has come back to me and said that she thinks the Sheila Watson in her tree's Mother was Cinnamon and not Page... and she has no idea if hers came from Eastbourne or not?!
Edith lived to a ripe old age, I even remember visiting her in the early 1980's! Think she died around 1984. She had 2 more children who always thought their parents were married...turns out when they were going through her things they found she had never married their father - still technically married to Bert!
So it seems Bert didn't wait for Edith to die before marrying again!
Nan says she has no memory of him at all...just that he left when she was very small and no one would talk about him - she went to live with her grandparents by the time she was about 10.
I've ordered Berts birth cert, his wedding to Florence and Sheila's birth certs...just for starters!
I'm so thrilled that there MAY be some half siblings of nans out there who may still be alive..and if not almost certainly will have descendants who are :-)
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The ancestry lady has come back to me and said that she thinks the Sheila Watson in her tree's Mother was Cinnamon and not Page... and she has no idea if hers came from Eastbourne or not?!
Looking at her tree, she doesn't seem to know much about him, I would think that she is related to Florence and just added him as her husband.
You've discovered the beauty of Rootschat - everyone here is helpful and friendly and usually by working together we eventually do manage to find people. Please let us know what the certificates say.
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It's been so helpful and I am so very grateful to you all in giving up your time to spend on someone else's history.
If you aren't all sick of me I shall be pleased to share the certificate findings with you :-)
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It's been so helpful and I am so very grateful to you all in giving up your time to spend on someone else's history.
If you aren't all sick of me I shall be pleased to share the certificate findings with you :-)
Please do, it is nice to get a follow up. Hopefully they will show he is the right one, then if you need help finding his other children, we may be able to help there. Although that will probably have to be done by PMs as they could still be living.
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You've discovered the beauty of Rootschat - everyone here is helpful and friendly and usually by working together we eventually do manage to find people. Please let us know what the certificates say.
And break down some really high and strong brick walls - you all managed to do one of mine which I know I'd never have worked out on my own
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And break down some really high and strong brick walls - you all managed to do one of mine which I know I'd never have worked out on my own
Often all it takes is a fresh pair of eyes, or someone with access to a different source. Sometimes it helps when it isn't your own family and you come at it from a different angle, so you aren't working from family stories etc.
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It's more than simply that fresh pair of eyes.
It's willing hard work, intelligence and thoroughness.
I've had some great help where people on here have kindly not only taken my ideas, given them a good shake-out and dusting, but also done some real research and hunting to help me out. I'm always totally delighted when in some small way I can in my turn help someone else, and humbled by how clev er other members are.
-And this is a pretty good example of many RootsBrains working well together! As usual.
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I totally agree!
All that time spent when people could be doing their own things. I was thrilled and forever grateful.
Certificates still not arrived. ...maybe tomorrow ;D
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The ancestry lady has come back to me and said that she thinks the Sheila Watson in her tree's Mother was Cinnamon and not Page... and she has no idea if hers came from Eastbourne or not?!
Looking at her tree, she doesn't seem to know much about him, I would think that she is related to Florence and just added him as her husband.
Yes ... just because someone else has been there before you, and has posted an online tree, and tells you that "their" Bertram isn't "your" Bertram ... that doesn't mean they are right.
And just because they tell you the name of "their" Bertram's father, THAT doesn't mean they are right, either.
An example of this is a great uncle of mine, who was gay, and moved to America in the 1950s where there was more acceptance and toleration of homosexuality than there was here in England at the time. He never married, and never had children. He died in 2002 and my great aunt, who is still living (the only one of my grandfather's siblings who is) flew to America and scattered his ashes on the Potomac river.
The source of my information is unimpeachable. But somebody else has my great uncle (and my other ancestors in this line ... not particularly well researched and with many errors) in their online tree claiming that he married one of their ancestors and had children. I have e-mailed giving them my information and letting them know that they're following the wrong line. But they have ignored me and their tree still shows my ancestors as theirs.
Now, if I hadn't known everything I do from my great aunt, his sister, I might have approached them saying that I thought we had a relative in common, and when I told them that my great uncle had been gay they'd have said "then he isn't my great grandfather" ... which would be true; but that wouldn't mean that MY great uncle wasn't the man THEY were WRONGLY showing on their online tree as their great grandfather.
So ... if your research convinces you that the man shown in their tree IS your man, then go with that conviction. And if your research suggests a different lineage than that which is shown in their online tree ... go with your research.
Not everyone who posts online has done better research than you ...
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Hear, hear! Agree totally. Most of us have found "kidnapped" ancestors hanging on someone else's tree from time to time - and we just hope that we have never kidnapped anyone else's ancestors by error - i once got a chap mixed up with his cousin, same age, place of birth, wife's name and four childrens' names!!! Eventually realised that he'd be unlikely to have changed jobs for 20 years, then back again, so looked more closely .... next door but three, actually! embarrassing if I'd not checked myself fully.
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Hello folks - been a while since I could get my mits on the laptop!
So I have 3 certificates here...
Bertram Watson aged 66 marrying a 47 year old Florence Pickering in June 1956- has put his father as Sidney, deceased...as he had on Edith Field's marriage cert in 1917.
However he has put his age in 1917 as 24...so that maths isn't adding up! He should be 63 in 1956 not 66? Why would you lie about that?
So am a bit confused here.
He has stated that he was a widower interestingly..
I also have his birth cert. No father named. Mother's name Edith Watson - no other help here.
Lastly I have Sheila Page's birth cert from 1940 and her father's name is not Bertram Watson...so she isn't his daughter.
I still think he's the right Bertram though!?
???
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I wouldn't worry about 3 years here or there on the age of a sexagenarian, you know.
The circumstances of his birth were shrouded in mystery. He probably didn't know for certain.
Maybe he was trying to claim an old age pension and needed to make sure that whatever he told the registrar about his age tallied with what he was telling the pensions people.
There could be any number of reasons.
What is far LESS likely is that somebody totally unconnected should have plucked a father's name out of the air and come up with Sydney.
This is often a useful way to test your conclusions in genealogy. The evidence is the evidence. That is a given, and it won't change if you change your hypothesis. So ask yourself "If my hypothesis as to what happened is wrong ... what alternative hypotheses are available?" Then offer those alternative hypotheses up against the evidence, and ask "If this is what happened ... would the evidence look like this, or would it look different?" If the alternative hypothesis would have produced different-looking evidence, then it can be dismissed, because it didn't: it produced the evidence you've actually got!
(That's not to say that once you have dismissed the alternative hypothesis, your original hypothesis must be right: there might be another alternative hypothesis, which you have not considered, which WOULD have produced evidence looking like the evidence you've actually got ... which is why we always say go back and check everything, and recheck it, every time you get some new evidence ... )
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Thank you jbml :-)
I hear what you are saying. I have been back to the lady related to his 3rd (possibly?) wife and she is now more on board with believing, or at least prepared more to delve into, the fact that we share the same Bert.
She is going to contact the children of wife number 2, who are still alive and have families of their own. So I am on tenterhooks to see if this can be achieved and any information gathered I can give to my nan.
Fingers crossed.
In the meantime I can double check all that I know as you suggest :-)
Thank you
TD
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Fingers crossed for you, Tamla, and hoping that something really positive and useful will come out of this.