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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Topic started by: chinakay on Tuesday 14 February 17 18:55 GMT (UK)
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Hiya gang!
I'm bashing my head against a stubborn family of Dargans at the moment. They're a mysterious bunch :)
Seems one Charles Dargan (variations Dargen Dargin Dargon etc) had three children that I can find: Chester b 1822, Francis b 1827, and Eleanor b 1828. All in Antrim county. The family migrated to Belfast where the children married a McAffee and two Campbells (siblings).
So these are Scottish names and the families are known to be Protestant. But Dargan is a pretty Irish name and there are only 2 Protestant Dargans in the 1901 and 1911 censuses. The rest are all Roman Catholic. Somewhere back in time, my Dargan family seems to have converted to protestantism.
I'm asking for some practical insight into why the family might have done this. Apart from theological reasons, like someone was reading his Bible and came to the conclusion there was no need for priests etc...this kind of thing would be purely personal, subjective and impossible to prove. I'm looking for some kind of pragmatic reason.
I know it's a touchy subject in Ireland, but I'm not from there and have no idea how to approach the matter. Thanks if anyone can help :)
Cheers,
China
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It's Valentine's Day so how about 'Because they were in love'.
Marriage was a common reason for conversion.
There was an interesting case on TV once where a woman had pretended not only to COI all her life but also from Northern Ireland she had in fact been born RC in Cork, but research also discovered her entire family in an earlier generation had converted from COI to RC.
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It could have been easier to find a good job as a protestant.
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Interesting. Valentine's Day, of course...Happy Valentine's Day ;D
Wouldn't conversion be a bit dangerous? In my travels I came across an O'Connor who had been murdered by his own family for converting to protestantism.
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Wouldn't conversion be a bit dangerous? In my travels I came across an O'Connor who had been murdered by his own family for converting to protestantism.
Maybe that's why they migrated to Belfast?
Philip
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Could be, I suppose.
Charles was a writing clerk. Wouldn't a firm offer that sort of job to a Catholic?
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Depends on the firm and the period.
The period in time plays a large part in this stuff, it varied through time, we should never assumed relations were always tense or that everyone felt the same way even if social convention at the time forced them to behave one way or another.
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Seems from what I've read that Belfast was pretty unsettled in the early 1800s. Big riot in 1829 when somebody tried to ban the Orange Parade, so they must have been having those parades for quite a while.
But I do take your point :)
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Seems one Charles Dargan (variations Dargen Dargin Dargon etc) had three children that I can find: Chester b 1822, Francis b 1827, and Eleanor b 1828. All in Antrim county. The family migrated to Belfast where the children married a McAffee and two Campbells (siblings).
Belfast is partly in County Down and partly in County Antrim ;D
So, not much of a migration? :-\
My in-laws are from Newtonabbey, County Antrim, which is in North Belfast.
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Seems from what I've read that Belfast was pretty unsettled in the early 1800s. Big riot in 1829 when somebody tried to ban the Orange Parade, so they must have been having those parades for quite a while.
But I do take your point :)
Since the parade commemorates a battle in 1690 which was won by the Protestant side it probably had been going on for a while.
There was a lot going on in that period that people felt strongly about.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Catholic_Relief_Act_1829
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Okay, they migrated from around Lisburn (Derryaghy) to Belfast :)
Thank you for the link, I hadn't found that yet. I'll have a read this evening.
Cheers,
China
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Because the law mandated that they should convert. The Catholic Church being an illegal organization until 1828, with lingering disabilities until 1920.
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Links about the Penal Laws.
http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~irlker/penallaws.html
http://www.libraryireland.com/HistoryIreland/Penal-Laws.php
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Because the law mandated that they should convert. The Catholic Church being an illegal organization until 1828, with lingering disabilities until 1920.
The Roman Catholic Relief Act 1829, passed by Parliament in 1829, was the culmination of the process of Catholic Emancipation throughout Britain. In Ireland it repealed the Test Act 1672 and the remaining Penal Laws which had been in force since the passing of the Disenfranchising Act of the Irish Parliament of 1728.
This removed many of the remaining substantial restrictions on Roman Catholics throughout the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland. However, at the same time the minimum property qualification for voters was increased seriously reducing the number of those entitled to vote, although after 1832 the threshold was again lowered in successive Reform Acts.
The major beneficiaries were the Roman Catholic middle classes, who could now enter careers in the higher civil service and in the judiciary. Lower class Catholics took far longer to catch up.
During the famine a phrase evolved "he didn't take the soup" referring to people who converted to get food from food kitchens.
Later because of conversions to Protestantism the Catholic Church and a growing trend of mixed marriages, they brought in Ne Temere. This decree was issued under Pope Pius X, 10 August 1907, and took effect on Easter 19 April 1908. A priest then could refuse to perform mixed marriages between Roman Catholics and non-Roman Catholics, he could impose conditions such as an obligation for any children to be baptised and brought up as Catholics, and for the non-Catholic partners to submit to religious education with the aim of converting them to Catholicism.
You can see in some 1901 census returns where the family are shown as both religions and the sons the as the father and the daughters the same as the mother!
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Okay, I just had a look at the penal laws, thank you very much! It must have been a tough life for a Catholic, imagine having to convert for food. I imagine many of those "conversions" were lip service.
I have another question...I found the Converts Rolls, and there is only one Dargon, 1793 in County Carlow. That's quite a way from Lisburn/Belfast. Do you suppose this could be the right family?
Okay, yet another question :) The roll register says Tulla, County Carlow. The handwriting is beautiful and very clear. But there's a Tullow, Carlow, and also a Tulla, Cty Clare. Both are pretty far from Belfast. Which one would it be, I wonder?
Thank you all for your help.
Cheers,
China
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Aaaand another question :) There's a Patrick Durgan, from Bonlak or Boulak. Actually I think the name is Duigan. But I'm not finding anything like Bonlak. Any ideas?
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It's in the Tipperary section so somewhere in Tipperary appears to be near or in Clonmel
http://census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/cq/IRE_CATHQUALCONV_007604281_00532.pdf
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Oh, hadn't noticed that, thanks. Well it's even farther. I guess we'll never know.
Thank you all for your help.
Cheers,
China
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I know you don't need it but where it is was bugging me, think it may be the historic parish of Boulick
http://maps.osi.ie/publicviewer/#V2,626891,654918,7,7
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Oooh, what a fabulous map! Thank you so much, Sinann, I've been playing with it :)
I don't think my lot would have been from there, but I have been there. When I was about 15 or so we flew into Shannon and rented a car, and drove all around the south. I have been to Kilkenny, and Limerick, very nearby. I have a lot of lovely memories of green fields and friendly people. We went to Tara, and Bunratty castle, and Blarney. Yes, I kissed the Blarney Stone ;D
Thanks again,
China
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Assuming the original births were Protestant (specifically CoI), I would suppose the primary reason was economic, somewhat comparable to how so many converted Islam, after the Islamic conquest.
At the extreme end, (with what level of enforcement I don't know) I believe, at one time, by law, the Catholics were not supposed to even work the land on the larger estates in the Ulster Plantation, let alone own land. Now, I'm not sure whether this applied to Antrim or not, but perhaps they saw the writing on the wall anyway.
It would have been pretty hard to be a Catholic in Ulster, I think. Under Cromwell, Catholic churches were destroyed or converted all over Ireland. Mass was usually held outside and in secret. They were still hunting priests at least as late as 1700.
I wouldn't suppose that your family would be on the rolls. I think they involved a bit of travelling, and likely many families converted beforehand.
My understanding is that there was a lot of unofficial discrimination, especially in Ulster, for a long time, even after the Penal Laws were lifted. Ulster was sort of economically depressed compared to England, and people looked out for their own, in terms of resources, so it isn't inconceivable that an open job would be filled preferentially by a Protestant.
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Hi Ghostwheel, thank you. I didn't find much on the rolls, no. I suppose we'll never find out, which is a shame because I'm so curious about them :)
Sorry myluck, I didn't thank you properly for the information you provided. I've read it all again and as an outsider I'm disturbed at the added layer of social and economic pressure the laws forced on little people just trying to cope with life as it was in those times. As if it wasn't tough enough back then.
Cheers,
China
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It wasn't actually as simple as a division between Protestants and Catholics. The Church of Ireland (established or state church) and landlords had quite a bit of control over people and it wasn't just Catholics who were discriminated against.
My local C. of I. collected tithes in their parish (thus allowing other denominations to be buried in their ground) but many, many non-CofI headstones were thrown away and plots re-issued to members of their church.
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You. Are. Kidding. Right?? :o
That is unconscionable. Never come across that one, that is filthy and disgusting. They can't even leave the dead in peace??
I know about the other groups, not just Catholic but any group deemed dissenting. My bunch are mostly Presbyterian so they'd be included. But I haven't seen any evidence of discrimination against them because I can't trace any of them back very far. Not enough records...but, you already knew that :)
Thanks Aghadowey, I'll chew on that. Unbelievable.
Cheers,
China
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I know about the other groups, not just Catholic but any group deemed dissenting. My bunch are mostly Presbyterian so they'd be included. But I haven't seen any evidence of discrimination against them because I can't trace any of them back very far. Not enough records...but, you already knew that :)
Up to the 19th Century many of the people whom had left ireland were Presbyterians whom the established church were not in favour of.
It is why Washington had many men from an irish background who were not Catholic during War of Independence in the 1770's.
They opposed the Crown and the United Irishmen were founded by members of the non extablised churches
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Hmm, didn't know that. I do know a huge number of Irish arrived in eastern Canada in, probably, the early 1800s. Saint John New Brunswick was crawling with pre-famine Irish and another branch of mine apparently arrived around 1820. They seemed to have been Methodists.
Thanks, Oliverd.