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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: jcmac on Sunday 12 February 17 18:40 GMT (UK)
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Lloyds Register of Brit.&For. Shipping for 1843 has an entry for a ship named "Waterville" 198tons built 1835 and now recorded as belonging to the Port of "Gristne".
Entries are often abbreviated or have apostrophies to fit the column space.
This one beats me - can anyone help ?
jcmac.
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I am wondering whether that 'i' is an 'l' and the port is Gorleston in Norfolk.
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Could it be a bad transliteration for Gris Nez?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cap_Gris_Nez (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cap_Gris_Nez)
Regards
Chas
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I am wondering whether that 'i' is an 'l' and the port is Gorleston in Norfolk.
I would agree.
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Thank you Bbx,Kp & Bbk.
I was convinced the third letter was "l" but looking at other items on the page I agree that it is "i" and that Gorleston(e) would fit the bill.
Never heard of it but now I am away to increase my knowledge of the east coast.
Many thanks for all your help.
jcmac.
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Gore's Liverpool General Advertiser, 17 Oct 1844, under a heading "Cargoes landed Liverpool", reports the arrival -
"Waterville (198, of Wigton), J Mills from Buenos Ayres ..."
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Re "Wigton", there's Wigtown, Newton Stewart and immediately south is a "Garlieston".
Else, Gorleston, Great Yarmouth.
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HT,
Thank you for that find and the details certainly fit the LRofS entry for 1843.
I had finished my wiki look at Gorston and plumped for Yarmouth as the probable Port.
The Garlieston option seems to fit as the original port was Liverpool and Wigtonshire has a west coast position not that far from Liverpool.
I will rethink and try some searches to see if I can fit the movement of the ship/master into the limited 1843 detail I have.
many thanks,
jcmac.
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Just to say that it might help you with boats/ships to find a library with historical Lloyd's Lists and Lloyd's Registers. The Guildhall Library in London is one. They have an extensive Lloyd's section. When I was researching a trawler, I read the Lists for the period and could see it arriving and leaving ports on its journey. I also looked at its dimensions and registration details etc in the Register.
If you can be fairly precise about which ship you need to know about, they may be able to help by phone.
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I have just tried my access to the British Newspaper Archive for the period 1.1.1843 - 31.12.1845 but had no success for Waterville.
Bbk - I have used the NLS,Edinburgh for the Lloyds List etc but not for this enquiry. I am compiling lists for my next London trip so would probably give the NLS a miss just now.
The information I have is from a visit to Kew in 2013 and notes my wife took from BT112 and if I feel like going back (pre 1844) in the BT98 series I have ships such as this as back-up searches.
This is what my wife recorded:
S 1 725 S 36 353 ? S 62 1842
21 1 43 24 12 43 17 11 45
Princess Royal Waterville Uraguay
At this moment in time I am only tracing basic infomation to identify the Waterville.
jcmac.
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I am going to be at the Guildhall Library myself in the next couple of weeks and don't mind checking something out for you. Do you have a particular interest in the Waterville?
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Bbk,
I am trying to tie a John M(a)cArthur from Argyleshire, whose BT112/BT120 records provided the various ships, to a specific birth Parish. I have ship names from 1836 - 1853 (several with popular names) with two CL&A (1836-Resolution and 1838-Renown) recording Argyle.
I had hoped Waterville might be easier to identify !!!!
He is only ever noted as S (Sailor/Seaman) so I wouldn't expect him to appear in any of the Lloyds records.
Thank you for your offer but please do not use up your time at the Guildhall as I will follow up any leads at Kew when next down - if I can avoid ports like Glasgow, Liverpool or London !!
jcmac.
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BNA.
The Waterville is mentioned several times in early 1843 until -
"Gravesend, April 10 - Sailed ...... Waterville, for Barbados"
No further sighting until 16 Sep -
"INSURRECTION AT ST. DOMINGO
....... the Waterville was to sail on 3rd August, for Falmouth, and she may well bring more detailed accounts"
Next sighting 7th October -
"VESSELS SPOKEN WITH
The Waltry Isle (query Waterville, from St. Domingo, the 21st ult (ie. September), in lat.? long.? ....")
She then begins to appear more regularly in shipping reports
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The first ting that comes to my mind is Grimsby. Possible?
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I'm not sure that "Grlstne" is Gorleston. I've seen it written many, many times on documents through the 1800's and it rarely has an 'e' on the end. I'm not saying it is never written Gorlestone, but 'ton' is the usual ending.
Perhaps because (at least in the part of the world I grew up in) it would normally be pronounced with short 'stun' at the end, not a longer 'stone'.
If you had to shorten the name to 7 characters to get it to fit in the column then why would you add an 'e' which isn't normally there? The contraction "Gorlstn" would make more sense, being quite an accurate representation of the way it is pronounced, and also avoiding confusion with places starting with 'Garl..'
A second issue, though on the basis of my impressions not factual evidence, is the nature of trade at Yarmouth/Gorleston. I've always understood Yarmouth to be primarily a fishing port and for goods to and from the area served by the waterways in the area including Norwich. E.g. coastal trade of coal from the North-East and agricultural products to London.
From the examples given the Waterville sounds like it was involved in far more exotic trade than Gorleston generally saw. So whilst it isn't impossibe, would it really make sense to pick a home port for a ship which was on the East Coast of England and predominantly engaged in different activities?
Just some thoughts, not necessarily facts!
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HT,
Thank you once again - I tried BNA search under: ship "Waterville" and shipping "Waterville"
and I don't recollect any obvious relevant hits 1843-1845 !!!
Just tried under Waterville only from 1843-1846 and have 106 hits !!! - with many under shipping so now about to read results.
Many thanks,
jcmac.
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Guyana and Nick,
Sorry for delay - I checked BNA hits from 25.1.1843-1.12.1845 then went to visit friend in hospital.
Nick has covered a point I was troubled with - the "e" at the end of Grlstne - but I assumed it was just a variation. I also agree about the east coast trade and Yarmouth connection and with your logic.
HT listed 3 extracts - I found 1 and 2 but not 3.
I noted an entry for 2.10.1844. Cove of Cork. The Waterville, Mills of Sun-.....and from Buenos Ayres for Falmouth.....
The Sun- was the end of the line with the start of next line blurred and the name ending in "and".
Maybe Sunderland ? but may not help !!
I have entries for 8.10.1843 (from Aux Cayes at Falmouth) and 27.12.1843 (from Antwerp at Liverpool) so I will see if I can pick out more relevant details.
jcmac.
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I have just tried my access to the British Newspaper Archive for the period 1.1.1843 - 31.12.1845 but had no success for Waterville.
I was very surprised to read this, having found so many myself before posting the "Wigton" reference. Good to hear you hit on the right search key.
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Garlieston in Galloway mebbes?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garlieston
Skoosh.
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My inclination is to go with the Garlieston option but HT's find of Wigton as against Wigtown still raises a doubt.
On that basis I now have to consider which port CL&A are likely to be filed in the 1840's.
I can see BT98/139 and BT98/563 relate to Various Ports (1837-1853 and 1835-1844) respectively with 195(Carlisle), 250(Dumfries) and 482(Stranraer) possibles.
Can anyone suggest which of these, or any other, might be a reasonable order in which to procede ?
jcmac.
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It would seem to me that Lloyd's Reg is very slow in updating information.
From the newspaper reports I have digested it appears that. She was originally registered in Liverpool before being sold to owners in Garlieston when Mills became master, from 1838 until the late 1840's when Andrews became master.
According to the London Standard of 19/Oct/1852 a vessel with the name WATERVILLE registered in Liverpool was lost off Cape Horn, bound for the Sandwich Islands. No crew were lost.
I don't know if they are the same vessel but there are no reports for a vessel with that name after this date.
Andrews sailed with WATERVILLE from Liverpool around the 24/April/ 1852 bound for Oahu.
Armed with what you have. I cannot see any other way forward other than the route you have proposed. Good luck with your search.
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Seaweed,
Thanks for your observations and I do appreciate your opinion. I will follow up when next at Kew.
I spent some time this afternoon looking at Uruguay and find this ship lost off Cape Verde Islands due to fire then explosion on 19.6.1845. Crew returned to Britain on the Benin (of Liverpool) per newspaper report of 16.7.1845.
My reply #9 has a date 17.11.1845 for the Uruguay entry. Do you have any thoughts on how this date should be interpreted ?
jcmac.
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1832 Map of Wigton-
http://maps.nls.uk/view/74491941
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If you search BNA under "garlieston" it returns a number of hits, some describing a vessel as " ... of Garlieston". From your records would it be possible to check if, and how, these were registered. I also searched under "garleston" - which then drew in the Yarmouth group - confusing!
Purely out of interest, at this period could a vessel be registered against any location an owner wished or was there a prescribed/restricted list?
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Designated ports I should think! :)
Skoosh.
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HT,
I agree with you on the Wigton option but "just in case" I didn't want to lose the Cumbria option even though it had no obvious waterfront.
I am not clear on registration at this time as the early 19C newspapers note vessels linked to harbours which could only service very basic traffic and these places disappear quickly as shipping became more regulated. I have searched BT111/21 for a specific ship and although "Date of Register" (1853,'60 & '71) and "Port belonging to" had details, I am not sure how accurate earlier pre1850 records would be.
I have noticed many early vessels noted as "Creek of ......" and filed under a nearby Port.
jcmac.
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I continued searching a specific period (1/10-27/12/1843) in Brit.Lib.News'r archive under waterville then mills then antwerp with no other graphics in the search box and under antwerp came across this:
Liverpool Mercury 22.12.1843.
20.12.1843 Waterville, Mills, from Antwerp for this port at Stornoway, leaky and with sails split.
HT found an entry for Waltry Isle and I later came across a Water Lily so perhaps entries are being missed.
I rechecked for the period 20/12-23/12 as above and only antwerp produced a return. I then tried the first two followed by a comma and still nothing !!!! I'm not giving up yet !!!
From 8/10 at Falmouth, to Antwerp, at Stornoway 20/12, at Liverpool 27.12.1843.
No change yet to the possible BT98 ports to search.
jcmac.
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Decided to look at Princess Royal and from the information in my #9 reply I have decided to base my searches as follows:
Princess Royal, Brock, from Calcutta 24.1.1843 (of Aberdeen). 1 = Aberdeen
Waterville, Mills, arrived Liverpool from Antwerp 27.12.1843 (of Garlieston). 36 = Dumfries
Uruguay(of Liverpool) lost off Cape Verde 19.6.1845 - crew saved. 62 = Liverpool
Many thanks for the various replies with information and advice. I not yet worked out my next trip to Kew but will report on return what details, if any, has survived and found.
jcmac.
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I made it to TNA,Kew and searched BT98/250 (Dumfries Ships Names M-Z 1835-1844) and eventually found the bundle with "W" names and amongst them several CL&A for Waterville variously described as "of Dumfries", "of Wigton" and "of Wigtown".
Waterville (of Dumfries), Master James Mills, voyage London>Barbadoes>Liverpool 19.4.1843 - 27.12.1843.
McArthur joined the ship on 6.8.1843 in St.Domingo and left on 19.10.1843 in Antwerp.
As for my original query ?
No mention of Garlieston or Gorleston or any combination of these letters !!!
Can I thank all who responded to my query for your input.
jcmac.
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I just wonder if Garlieston counts as being part of the "Port of Wigtown" as Wigtown itself doesn't appear to have much of a harbour whereas Garlieston - which I visited a few years back - does.
I mention this because the "Port of Lancaster" includes Glasson Dock, four miles away and the only place where trade is carried out these days - Lasncaster itself too silted up.
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Silting up is/was a big problem in Cumbrian ports.
Skoosh.