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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Buckinghamshire => Topic started by: hasta on Saturday 11 February 17 23:55 GMT (UK)

Title: Agnes Brophy & her daughter died Chesham, Bucks.
Post by: hasta on Saturday 11 February 17 23:55 GMT (UK)
I have a great aunt married name Agnes Brophy (born Agnes Madeline Morgan in 1897 in Dublin) I lost track of her in Dublin in 1931 when she was widowed.
Recently I have come across a letter written by her in 1971 in which she writes that she is now living at 36 West View, Chesham, Bucks as she is looking after her deceased daughters family. We never knew that she had any children but this daughter would have been born before 1931 - I don't know her birth or married name so I wonder if there is any way to find out the names of who else was living at that address  c. 1971 and before.

Also a further document says she (Agnes Brophy) died in 24 May 1981 at Townfield Flats, Chesham, Bucks - but I can find no death record for her.

If anyone can help with the above I'd be grateful.
Title: Re: Agnes Brophy & her daughter died Chesham, Bucks.
Post by: CaroleW on Sunday 12 February 17 00:04 GMT (UK)
Quote
Also a further document

What type of document is it?

Does the 1971 letter confirm she is still Brophy?  By 1971 she would be 74yrs old and surely her daughters children would be adults by then?
Title: Re: Agnes Brophy & her daughter died Chesham, Bucks.
Post by: groom on Sunday 12 February 17 00:13 GMT (UK)
No deaths at all for anyone called Agnes in 1981 on Freebmd.
Title: Re: Agnes Brophy & her daughter died Chesham, Bucks.
Post by: hasta on Sunday 12 February 17 00:24 GMT (UK)
Hi Carol
It's a Military widow's cheque (for her husband's duty) to her at the Downfield Flats address in May 1981 and was returned to the Department of Defence saying she had already passed away in March 1981. The cheque was then reissued to another address in The Hawthorns Great Missenden - to someone who might be another married daughter - have no clue at the moment.
(these are all online on the Irish Military Pension website)
Title: Re: Agnes Brophy & her daughter died Chesham, Bucks.
Post by: hasta on Sunday 12 February 17 00:25 GMT (UK)
No deaths at all for anyone called Agnes in 1981 on Freebmd.
Yes, I can't find one either, very odd since I have her exact date of death and place.
Title: Re: Agnes Brophy & her daughter died Chesham, Bucks.
Post by: CaroleW on Sunday 12 February 17 00:28 GMT (UK)
Is there any mention in her husbands military records of the names of any children?
Title: Re: Agnes Brophy & her daughter died Chesham, Bucks.
Post by: CaroleW on Sunday 12 February 17 00:30 GMT (UK)
Quote
Also a further document says she (Agnes Brophy) died in 24 May 1981 at Downfield Flats,

Quote
and was returned  the Department of Defence saying she had already passed away in March 1981.


Did she die in March or May?
Title: Re: Agnes Brophy & her daughter died Chesham, Bucks.
Post by: hasta on Sunday 12 February 17 00:35 GMT (UK)
Hi Carol
No - there is a letter from him just before his death in 1931 where he mentions he has 2 children to provide for - but no names given.

It is possible that the deceased daughter was married to a BURROWS as Agnes lists her address in 1971 as c/o Mr BURROWS, Son in Law but it's just a scrawl that's my reading of the name - hence looking to research the 36 West View, Chesham, Bucks address.
Title: Re: Agnes Brophy & her daughter died Chesham, Bucks.
Post by: hasta on Sunday 12 February 17 00:39 GMT (UK)
Quote
Also a further document says she (Agnes Brophy) died in 24 May 1981 at Downfield Flats,

Quote
and was returned  the Department of Defence saying she had already passed away in March 1981.


Did she die in March or May?
Sorry Carol !
She died 24 May 1981.
The returned cheque was issued 31 May 1981.
New info - i'm still processing it !

Title: Re: Agnes Brophy & her daughter died Chesham, Bucks.
Post by: CaroleW on Sunday 12 February 17 00:44 GMT (UK)
I am sending you a pm with the possible name of a son
Title: Re: Agnes Brophy & her daughter died Chesham, Bucks.
Post by: hasta on Sunday 12 February 17 00:45 GMT (UK)
Here is the snippet where she mentions her son in law's name - I'm seeing BURROWS
Title: Re: Agnes Brophy & her daughter died Chesham, Bucks.
Post by: groom on Sunday 12 February 17 00:49 GMT (UK)
I am sending you a pm with the possible name of a son

I wonder if thats the one I've found in 1960 in Amersham?
Title: Re: Agnes Brophy & her daughter died Chesham, Bucks.
Post by: CaroleW on Sunday 12 February 17 00:51 GMT (UK)
Yes it is - great minds etc etc ;D

Possible death for daughter

Dora M Burrows aged 39 June 1965    Amersham  Vol   6a Page   286
Title: Re: Agnes Brophy & her daughter died Chesham, Bucks.
Post by: groom on Sunday 12 February 17 00:52 GMT (UK)
Just about to suggest that as well, it's the only one in the right place of an age that fits isn't it, the other females are too old?

Still can't find a death anywhere for Agnes, I wonder if she returned to Ireland to die?
Title: Re: Agnes Brophy & her daughter died Chesham, Bucks.
Post by: CaroleW on Sunday 12 February 17 00:53 GMT (UK)
Marriage

Dora M Brophy June qtr  Bootle 10B 1427
Spouse:    Andrew R G Burrows

Showing on www.lancashirebmd.org.uk as either an RC marriage or registry office

 
Title: Re: Agnes Brophy & her daughter died Chesham, Bucks.
Post by: CaroleW on Sunday 12 February 17 00:59 GMT (UK)
It's ok - he's deceased as well

Andrew Richard G Burrows aged 60 born:   26 Jan 1920
Death registered December 1980
Chiltern and Beaconsfield Volume   19 Page   1115
Title: Re: Agnes Brophy & her daughter died Chesham, Bucks.
Post by: groom on Sunday 12 February 17 01:01 GMT (UK)
It's ok - he's deceased as well

Andrew Richard G Burrows aged 60 born:   26 Jan 1920
Death registered December 1980
Chiltern and Beaconsfield Volume   19 Page   1115

Which could explain her change of address in 1981 - maybe retirement flats or a nursing home.
Title: Re: Agnes Brophy & her daughter died Chesham, Bucks.
Post by: hasta on Sunday 12 February 17 01:05 GMT (UK)
Dora looks a good possibility.
What do you guys think the snippet says - do you definitely think its BURROWS ?

I'm looking for a Dora Brophy birth in Dublin between 1922 and 1931 and not seeing one but I guess it could be Nora, Doris etc. Still looking on that.

thanks both for the info !!
Having a bit of trouble keeping up with you both   :D
Title: Re: Agnes Brophy & her daughter died Chesham, Bucks.
Post by: CaroleW on Sunday 12 February 17 01:05 GMT (UK)
There were 6 children born to the Burrows/Brophy marriage between 1950 - 1960 in various locations on Merseyside.  It looks like they only moved to Bucks between mid- 1959 - Mid - 1960

Re: name - Andrew died 1980 so can't be him
Title: Re: Agnes Brophy & her daughter died Chesham, Bucks.
Post by: groom on Sunday 12 February 17 01:08 GMT (UK)
Quote
Dora looks a good possibility.
What do you guys think the snippet says - do you definitely think its BURROWS ?

Yes, fits with the marriage Carole found and the birth of the child.
Title: Re: Agnes Brophy & her daughter died Chesham, Bucks.
Post by: groom on Sunday 12 February 17 01:11 GMT (UK)
Quote
Re: name - Andrew died 1980 so can't be him

Why not, wasn't that the name Agnes put on her letter in 1971?
Title: Re: Agnes Brophy & her daughter died Chesham, Bucks.
Post by: hasta on Sunday 12 February 17 01:11 GMT (UK)
It's ok - he's deceased as well

Andrew Richard G Burrows aged 60 born:   26 Jan 1920
Death registered December 1980
Chiltern and Beaconsfield Volume   19 Page   1115

Which could explain her change of address in 1981 - maybe retirement flats or a nursing home.


Yes - and the cheque was then re issued 30th JUNE 1981 to what must be a married grand daughter at 'The Hawthorns, Great Misenden, Bucks' - so the introduction of a new name in 1981would make sense. So I now have BURROWS - X marriage to look for. I'll let you know if I can find.
Title: Re: Agnes Brophy & her daughter died Chesham, Bucks.
Post by: groom on Sunday 12 February 17 01:14 GMT (UK)
What was Agnes's husband's name? There is this grave in Dublin, but later than her given death

https://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=97257286&ref=acom
Title: Re: Agnes Brophy & her daughter died Chesham, Bucks.
Post by: CaroleW on Sunday 12 February 17 01:15 GMT (UK)
This is a real shot in the dark for a death for Agnes and would depend on whether she remarried

Agnes O'Farrell aged 84 born 2 Feb 1897
Date of Registration Jun 1981 Chiltern and Beaconsfield  Volume 19 Page   1045
Title: Re: Agnes Brophy & her daughter died Chesham, Bucks.
Post by: CaroleW on Sunday 12 February 17 01:18 GMT (UK)
Quote
Why not, wasn't that the name Agnes put on her letter in 1971?

No names on 1971 letter.  Army letter May 1981 shows payment re-sent to son in law but Andrew died 1980
Title: Re: Agnes Brophy & her daughter died Chesham, Bucks.
Post by: hasta on Sunday 12 February 17 01:19 GMT (UK)
What was Agnes's husband's name? There is this grave in Dublin, but later than her given death

https://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=97257286&ref=acom
Hi Groom
Yes I've seen that one. her husband was Thomas and he is buried in a family plot in Deans Grange Cemetary and she's not there.
Am very confused why there is no record of her death in bucks.
Title: Re: Agnes Brophy & her daughter died Chesham, Bucks.
Post by: CaroleW on Sunday 12 February 17 01:20 GMT (UK)
See my reply 23 - do you know Agnes's full birthdate?
Title: Re: Agnes Brophy & her daughter died Chesham, Bucks.
Post by: groom on Sunday 12 February 17 01:21 GMT (UK)
This is a real shot in the dark for a death for Agnes and would depend on whether she remarried

Agnes O'Farrell aged 84 born 2 Feb 1897
Date of Registration Jun 1981 Chiltern and Beaconsfield  Volume 19 Page   1045

That's a good one Carole - right place and date. Agnes is quite an uncommon name.
Title: Re: Agnes Brophy & her daughter died Chesham, Bucks.
Post by: hasta on Sunday 12 February 17 01:24 GMT (UK)
See my reply 23 - do you know Agnes's full birthdate?

Oh WOW !
Yes, her birth date was 2 Feb 1897.
Title: Re: Agnes Brophy & her daughter died Chesham, Bucks.
Post by: groom on Sunday 12 February 17 01:25 GMT (UK)
He died Dec quarter 1980 didn't he and she died a few months later. Could it be they weren't informed of his death?
Title: Re: Agnes Brophy & her daughter died Chesham, Bucks.
Post by: groom on Sunday 12 February 17 01:26 GMT (UK)
See my reply 23 - do you know Agnes's full birthdate?

Oh WOW !
Yes, her birth date was 2 Feb 1897.

BRILLIANT Carole - you've cracked it. Can't find a marriage, so it looks as if she married in Ireland. Now I can go to bed. Well done.  ;D
Title: Re: Agnes Brophy & her daughter died Chesham, Bucks.
Post by: hasta on Sunday 12 February 17 01:42 GMT (UK)
Sorry if I was misleading along the line - a bit difficult to keep up.

Just to clarify the 'Son in Law - BURROWS" snippet is from 1971.
It makes perfect sense that the cheque reissued after Agnes's death is to a completely new Mrs. X name. Who must be a married grand daughter.

The Agnes O'Farrell death, (Irish marriage)  Dora Brophy marriage and Dora Burrows death certs will all be ordered and I'll up date you.
And grateful for both your time and fantastic detective work - I had spent the evening going round in circles and getting more and more confused.
 8)
In order to claim this pension at all Agnes had to state that she had never remarried since her 33 year old husband died in 1931. I will be so delighted if it turns out that she told a little fib and got the money and a new life. She deserved both.
Title: Re: Agnes Brophy & her daughter died Chesham, Bucks.
Post by: Annette7 on Sunday 12 February 17 01:57 GMT (UK)
Agnes Madeline Brophy (nee Morgan) appears to have married a Herbert John Farrell in Sept.qtr.1941 Rathdown.

Annette
Title: Re: Agnes Brophy & her daughter died Chesham, Bucks.
Post by: hasta on Sunday 12 February 17 02:01 GMT (UK)
Just found an Irish marriage for 'Agnes Madeline Morgan' also listed as 'Agnes Madeline Brophy' to Herbert John Farrell - Q3 Rathdown 1941. Has to be her.
Delighted.
Title: Re: Agnes Brophy & her daughter died Chesham, Bucks.
Post by: hasta on Sunday 12 February 17 02:02 GMT (UK)
Agnes Madeline Brophy (nee Morgan) appears to have married a Herbert John Farrell in Sept.qtr.1941 Rathdown.

Annette
Thanks Annette
Just found that as well !
Title: Re: Agnes Brophy & her daughter died Chesham, Bucks.
Post by: groom on Sunday 12 February 17 10:01 GMT (UK)
So naughty Agnes claimed the pension for 40 years when she was Mrs Farrell, when did John Farrell die?  I wonder if she kept a bank account in the name of Brophy as she was paid by cheque? Interesting that she must have used the Farrell name when she came to England as she was registered as that on her death.
Title: Re: Agnes Brophy & her daughter died Chesham, Bucks.
Post by: CaroleW on Sunday 12 February 17 15:24 GMT (UK)
Quote
I will be so delighted if it turns out that she told a little fib and got the money and a new life. She deserved both.

I doubt the taxpayers would be as delighted!! 

Her pension would cease on re-marriage to Farrell unless she had dependant Brophy children at that time in which case the children would be provided for.

I am unsure whether she could have re-claimed her own part of the pension when Farrell died, but if she could (and did) reclaim it,  payments would presumably have been made under her Farrell surname - not Brophy...............
 
Title: Re: Agnes Brophy & her daughter died Chesham, Bucks.
Post by: CaroleW on Sunday 12 February 17 15:59 GMT (UK)
There is no death in Bucks for a John Farrell / O'Farrell with a likely birthdate.  I wonder whether he died in Ireland before Agnes went to Bucks to look after her grandchildren?
Title: Re: Agnes Brophy & her daughter died Chesham, Bucks.
Post by: hasta on Monday 13 February 17 00:25 GMT (UK)
I did a bit of digging today. Herbert John Farrell was born 2 Feb 1894 in Dublin but I can't find a death for him. One possibility in 1951 that might be worth following up when I can get to the library and check the electoral registers.

Also found the probate index for both Dora and Andrew Burrows and both give the same address at 36 West View, Chesham that Agnes was using so that really nails it without even getting certs.

Re: the pension, it wasn't a normal state widows pension - it was specificially for widows of men who had fought in the 1916 Rising. Her husband was awarded it in 1928 but then he died shortly after and the pension died with him.
The legislation to extend it to widows was brought in in 1971 and that's the one she applied for.
Title: Re: Agnes Brophy & her daughter died Chesham, Bucks.
Post by: CaroleW on Monday 13 February 17 14:11 GMT (UK)
Quote
Herbert John Farrell was born 2 Feb 1894 in Dublin

How coincidental that Herbert & Agnes shared the same birthday - albeit 3yrs apart.

She was probably widowed again by 1971 but I'm puzzled why the payments were being paid as Brophy.  Still - it was a very long time ago so it's in the past.

Was the 1951 death in England or Ireland?
Title: Re: Agnes Brophy & her daughter died Chesham, Bucks.
Post by: CaroleW on Monday 13 February 17 14:23 GMT (UK)
Another "shot in the dark" here

Dora married in Bootle.   There is this death

Herbert J O'Farrell aged 69 (1894) Date of Registration   June 1963 Bootle Vol   10b Page   633
Title: Re: Agnes Brophy & her daughter died Chesham, Bucks.
Post by: groom on Monday 13 February 17 15:53 GMT (UK)
Looks like another good one, Carole - name, age and place are bit too much of a coincidence.
Title: Re: Agnes Brophy & her daughter died Chesham, Bucks.
Post by: CaroleW on Monday 13 February 17 17:32 GMT (UK)
Hi Hasta

You may want to consider getting that 1963 O'Farrell death cert to see if the informant was Agnes or whether she is mentioned as his widow.  I wonder if the family moved to Bootle after Agnes & Herbert married?
Title: Re: Agnes Brophy & her daughter died Chesham, Bucks.
Post by: HannahB on Wednesday 25 April 18 02:18 BST (UK)
Townfield Flats are old peoples flats. I think they are some kind of public housing. Might there be nformation available with whoever handles rentals for the flats? Any Chesham people know?
Title: Re: Agnes Brophy & her daughter died Chesham, Bucks.
Post by: CaroleW on Wednesday 25 April 18 18:18 BST (UK)
She died in 1981 so I doubt records would be available from 37 years ago
Title: Re: Agnes Brophy & her daughter died Chesham, Bucks.
Post by: Mimo on Friday 12 November 21 14:25 GMT (UK)
Just came across this topic recently. Anyone got information on 6 children of Andrew Burrows/Dora Brophy.
Agnes Brophy(Morgan) is my wife's Grand Aunt.