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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Lanarkshire => Topic started by: ali_wooding on Saturday 11 February 17 22:11 GMT (UK)
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Hi
I am researching my neice's family tree for her 16th Birthday, and am struggling to find the birth record for one of her great grandparents. We are in England, and I have totally got into the ScotlandsPeople website thingy (excellent value compared to English certificates!), but I just cannot find her great grandfather John Docherty born between 1880 and 1883 in Lanarkshire to John Docherty and Elizabeth Marshall.
He married in 1911 in Cowdenbeath to Elizabeth Parker, and died in 1962 in Dunfermline.
His age on his marriage certificate, death certificate and on census place his year of birth in question, but I know from the 1911 census that he was definitely born in Lanark. Nothing more specific though I'm afraid.
If anyone by any strange chance has any more information or would be willing to help me discover it it would be much appreciated!
Not that my neice will probably see the value in this until she's much older of course, but I still think it's worth doing for her!
Many thanks!
Ali
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I can see a John Dougherty m an Eliza Marshall in Kirkintilloch, Dumbartonshire in 1873 SP reference 498/ 34. It may be a different couple, but at moment, not seeing a better match.
At least one birth, daughter Mary:
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XY5T-C5N
Have you looked for your John under alternative spelling of surname and possible alternative area/s?
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Hi there
What was John's father's occupation on that 1911 marriage cert?
Monica :)
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Scotsmum, this might fit as a family for that marriage and daughter Mary?
1891:
John Docherty 38 stone mason b. Ireland
Elizabeth Docherty 44 b. Ireland
Mary Docherty 17 b. Kirkintiloch, Dumbartonsh
Lizzie Docherty 15
Jane Docherty 13
John Docherty 10 b. Maryhill, Lanarkshire
James Docherty 8
William Docherty 6
Edward Docherty 3
Address: 38 Bell St New Monkland/Airdrie, Lanarkshire
Monica
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Was just about to post same, MonicaL.
;D
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My John Docherty's father was another John Docherty, who was shown as a Mason (Journeyman) on the 1911 marriage.
Thanks for the replies by the way, super speedy!
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Think the marriage and census are likely to be right family then.
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I did see that census entry, but my Elizabeth wasn't born in Ireland. And I had a look at a Maryhill birth that I thought would match and it didn't... Sometimes I dislike my hobby.
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That is promising then Ali. Looks like Scotsmum marriage details may well be correct :)
Trying to find the family now in 1901. This is the closest I can see:
Elizabeth Docherty 45 b. Milton, stirlingshire
Jeanie Docherty 25 power loom weaver Partick, Lanarkshire
William Docherty 16 b. Kirkintilloch, Dumbartonshire
Edward Docherty 14 b. Kirkintilloch, Dumbartonshire
Address: 11 Church Pl, Glasgow-Milton
Birth places a little different. Can't tell the marital status for this Elizabeth from the transcript, Ali.
Monica
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but my Elizabeth wasn't born in Ireland.
It can happen that a wife's birthplace is assumed to be same as husband's, even if not, and thereby recorded on census as such.
What records do you have for Elizabeth Docherty/Dougherty (nee Marshall) to know she wasn't Irish?
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I have seen both a birth and marriage certificate for Elizabeth Marshall, born to Alexander Marshall in 1864 in Govan, Lanarkshire. I guess it's possible that I've got the wrong Elizabeth Marshall to John Docherty marriage (1882) and from that I've gone wrong?
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Hi Ali,
You say that your John Docherty was born in Lanark according to the 1911 census. This was taken on the 2nd April.
Can I ask the date of his marriage in Cowdenbeath to Elizabeth Parker? Could you possibly have the wrong census record.
Dorrie
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I think I must have even dreamt about all of this last night...
The date of the 1911 marriage was 22nd Dec, and John's address on there and on the census is the same - Natal Place, so I've got that bit right at least!
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Hi Ali,
I have been doing a bit of searching for you and I feel that the birth/marriage records that you have are indeed not correct if the following are the ones that you have-
Birth record - Elizabeth Hamilton Marshall - born 6th March 1864 to Alexander Marshall/Jean Laird.
Marriage record - Elizabeth Hamilton Marshall - 22nd December 1882 to John Docherty.
Looking at this marriage/census records they do not appear to have had a son named John.
However, the information given to you by Scotsmum and Monica is a very strong possibility as on your 1911 marriage record for John Docherty/Elizabeth Parker a witness is a JAMES Docherty who could have been his brother.
See the 1891 Census as posted earlier and there is a James too.
This unfortunately takes you back to the drawing board with finding John's Birth Record.
Personally, I never take a place of birth given on a census as 100% correct as I have found out in my own family research.
Dorrie
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Thanks Dorrie.
I am now questioning the info that I thought I knew that led me down this path. Shamefully have assumed that info given to me further down the tree is correct.
I am starting from a safe birth of a grandparent named Mary Parker Docherty in 1923. I assumed that her parents were therefore a Docherty and a Parker, and pounced on the only marriage I could find with those 2 surnames, which did also match the info I'd been given. But having not seen Mary Parker Docherty's birth or marriage I see now that it's actually a pretty big leap. Looks like I need to spend some money on the 1923 birth and go from there! Thanks so much again for the input and advice, I'm sure I'll be back!
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Who, when and where did Mary Parker Docherty marry?
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Hi Ali,
Yes, I think that you would be better doing that and working your way back from there.
Birth for Mary Parker Docherty in 1923 Carnock, Fife ( small village about 4 miles west of Dunfermline)
Possible marriage for Mary Parker Docherty to a Robert Gray Skinner in 1947 at Auchterderran, Fife in 1947 (small village not far from Lochgelly).
From Scotlands People Index.
Do you recognise the name of Skinner ?
All from Scotlands People Index.
Both records would need to be ordered because of the 100 year rule for births and 75 year rule for marriages.
Dorrie
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Yep, Skinner is my starting point! I figure I'm best off ordering the birth because that will give names and marriage date for Mary's parents, John & Elizabeth or otherwise!
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If Mary's birth certificate confirms that her parents were indeed John Docherty and Elizabeth Parker, then previous details from 1891 and 1911 are Census are correct with Maryhill being John's birthplace.
However, he was actually 2 years older than expected!
Decided to look at the birth entry for the Edward bc.1888 Burston, Stirlingshire and took a while but eventually found it confirming parents as John and wife Eliza/beth Marshall with her showing as having had a previous marriage to what I thought at first was Greer but now know was Gruer/Grewar.
Edwards' birth entry is under Dougherty, born 14/1/1888 at Birdston , Campsie, Stirling.
Then found John and Elizabeth on 1881 census when they were in Maryhill, Glasgow with 2 children from her first marriage as Gruar and 4 children from their own, the youngest being 5 month old John Docherty born Maryhill. Back to births index on SP and John's birth also recorded as Dougherty and he was born 8/11/1880 to John and Elizabeth (nee Marshall).
The 1873 marriage is definitely correct for the couple although she married in her maiden name. Familysearch shows the birth entry for son David from 1st marriage as 26/8/1868 as 'Grewar', son of Daniel Grewar and Elizabeth Marshall. 1881 census also states she was born in Ireland and wanted to find her and her 2 children in 1871 to see again if it states Ireland but alas couldn't find them. (A Daniel Gruer aged 31 died in New Monkland, Lanarkshire in 1872 which could be him I suppose). Again, familysearch shows Daniel Grewar and Elizabeth Marshall married 17/10/1862 Kirkintilloch.
Let's hope Mary's birth certificate will confirm the above details are all correct.
Annette
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I thought at first was Greer but now know was Gruer/Grewar.
Annette
Annette, you did well with the 'variants' of that surname!
It's great when you acquire knowledge of such variants but only when you don't have to spend lots of £'s to find them ;D
Annie
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Great info, Annette. Well done for finding the birth etc ;)
On a/try, the 1871 census has the family transcribed as Petersen with a correction to Grewar:
Daniel Peterson 29 blacksmith b.Slamannan, Stirlingshire
Elizabeth Peterson 27 b. Slamannan, Stirlingshire (looks like she has gone down same as husband)
Robert Peterson 31 should be 7 as born in August 1863
Margaret Peterson 5
David Peterson 2
Daniel Peterson 3 Months
Address: 112 High St, New Monkland/Airdrie
Monica
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From the names of the children from Elizabeth's first marriage to Daniel Grewar, we have in order:
Robert
Margaret
David
Daniel
Wondering if they followed Scottish naming pattern, Elizabeth's parents may have been called David and Margaret?
Ali, the 1873 marriage that Scotsmum mentioned earlier will confirm her parents' names for you. If they are David and Margaret...there is this possible 1861 census entry for her with family maybe just before the marriage to Daniel Grewar:
David Marshall 37 coal miner b. b. Antrim, Ireland
Margaret T Marshall 38 b. b. Antrim, Ireland
Elizabeth Marshall 18 cotton mill worker b. Antrim, Ireland
James Marshall 15 b. Antrim, Ireland
John Marshall 12 b. Campsie, Stirlingshire
David Marshall 10 b. Old Monkland, Lanarkshire
Samuel Marshall 5 b. Old Monkland, Lanarkshire
Margaret Marshall 2 b. Kilmarnock, Ayrshire
Address: Garden Sq Hamlet W Side, New Monkland Landward
If the correct family and her parents died in Scotland, you should be able to get the next generation back from their death registrations.
Monica
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I think the T in mother Margaret's name above from 1861 was for her maiden name of Thomson. There is an 1855 birth for them in Scotland for a Thomas (may have died pre 1861) https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FQBS-3JM
1855 BMDs in Scotland are very fortunate when you get them. The first year of Scottish official registration, the certs ran over two pages of the register before being reduced down to one side by 1856.
Lots of detail on birth certs from 1855 on parents. You should be able to confirm their marriage date and place, their ages and where they were from. Also how many children they had (boys/girls, alive/deceased).
Hope these are her parents :)
Monica
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There are numerous online trees on a/try which can be viewed with a subscription, such as here http://person.ancestry.co.uk/tree/45781727/person/230050712713/facts
The famlily were already in Scotland by 1851:
David Marshall 28 Agr Servant b. Ireland
Margt Marshall 28 b. Ireland
Eliza Marshall 7 b. Ireland
James Marshall 6 b. Campsie, Stirlingshire
John Marshall 2 b. Campsie, Stirlingshire
David Marshall 6 Months b. Campsie, Stirlingshire
Willm Thomson 21 Brother-in-law b. Ireland
Address: Blue Row, Milton, Campsie Stirlingshire
There are details on this family tree of Elizabeth Marshall/Greir/Docherty's death in December 1919 from heart failure. Also included is the original marriage cert for Elizabeth to Daniel Greir in 1862 confirming her parents as David Marshall and Margaret Thomson.
Interestingly, from the many well documented trees, none of them seem to have been able to trace what happened to John born 1880 in Maryhill. Quite a lot of details, including death dates, have been included for his siblings but nothing for him...
Monica
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All of the above are good guesses, but as you mentioned earlier, you are going to need to get the details from that 1923 birth for Mary Parker Docherty in Carnock, Fife.
There is a couple who could also connect to Mary. There is a John Docherty and a Mary Parker. The family in 1901 - everyone showng as born in Glasgow:
John Docherty 37 Dock Labourer
Mary Docherty 35
James Docherty 12
Mary Docherty 7
William Docherty 3
Hanna Docherty 6 Months
Address 4 W College St, Glasgow/Blythswood
It could be that one of these children called a daughter Mary Parker Docherty in 1923. They are all in the right age range.
Enough guesses from me now ;) Too many for me to feel comfortable that we are on the right family for now!
Monica
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Said I would stop guessing. Well, a half guess!
We have the key birth that you are working from:
1923 birth for Mary Parker Docherty in Carnock, Fife.
There is another birth in Carnock Fife in 1915. For a John Parker Docherty. His parents are showing below, the couple you were already looking at:
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And so we are back (hurray...we have so much on them!) to John Docherty and Elizabeth Marshall who look to be grandparents to Mary Parker Docherty (still good to get her 1923 BC ::)).
From the marriage details which you have of John Docherty to Elizabeth Parker in Cowdenbeath in 1911, as below. With additonal details going back on family lines from everyone and confirmation of his birth from Annette, looking good and firming up what you had already :)
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I think I'm a bit more confused than I was before...sorry, clearly more of a novice than I thought I was...!
So, I have ordered the marriage certificate for my Mary Parker Docherty, because I needed that for my niece's family tree and it will also confirm her parents (I know I won't have their marriage date from it but I can get that later).
Am I now scrapping the idea that the John Docherty who married in 1911 to Elizabeth Parker the confectioner is my John Docherty? Or is that marriage right and he was born John Dougherty in 1880, but I've got the John and Elizabeth that I thought were his parents wrong?
I also found this headstone that I think belongs to my original John Docherty and Elizabeth Parker:
https://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=141884248
Sorry!
I have another stumbling block on another branch of the tree, but I'll probably start a new thread on that...
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Ali, I think you are on the right track for the family of Mary Parker Docherty. Doesn't matter really whether you order her birth or marriage as both will confirm her parents' names. The marriage cert makes sense to also let you confirm her husband's family from his details on that.
So far, from what you have and mentioned here I think you have:
1947 Marriage of Mary Parker Docherty to Robert Gray Skinner in Auchterderran, Fife.
1923 Birth of Mary Parker Docherty in Carnock Fife.
1915 Birth of a John Parker Docherty in Carnock Fife (a brother to Mary? Elizabeth Parker's father's name).
1911 Marriage of John Docherty and Elizabeth Parker in Cowdenbeath Fife in December. John Docherty's parents showing as John Docherty, mason, deceased and mother Elizabeth Marshall.
Before these dates, lots of details here on this post regarding John Docherty's family, including his birth details from Annette.
The marriage cert for Mary Parker Docherty will help you confirm further :)
Monica
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I also found this headstone that I think belongs to my original John Docherty and Elizabeth Parker:
https://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=141884248
I think you have found her death. There are corresponding details for an Elizabeth Wilson Parker/Docherty, aged 81. Death in Cowdenbeath in 1970.
From the stone you found, the son John we had b. 1915 looks to have died young www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GSln=docherty&GSiman=1&GScid=2471849&GRid=141884246&
You also have the death for John father don't you? From the stone www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GSln=docherty&GSiman=1&GScid=2471849&GRid=141884247&
Couple of other deaths showing on SP for possible siblings to Mary Parker Docherty.
Monica
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Thanks everyone, will hang on for certificate and go from there.
On to next thread...
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Just following up on this thread, John Docherty (born Dougherty in Irish spelling) and Elizabeth Marshal are my g-g-grandparents.
From my investigations, I believe they had at least 7 children
Mary, b. Kirkintilloch
Elizabeth, b. Partick
Jane / Jeanie, b. Partick
John, b. Maryhill <- Your John, know in my family as "Uncle Jock"
James, b. Kingarth <- My g-grandfather
William Marshall, b. Kirkintilloch
Edward, b. Birdston
Elizabeth Marshall had at least 4 more children (Robert, Margaret, David and Daniel) with her first husband, Daniel Grewer or Grier who died young.
I believe the family moved around following John's work as a stonemason. Both John and Elizabeth were born in Ireland and moved to Scotland as children with the great famine around 1850.
My mother used to spend her summer holidays with your John's children :-)
I also understand your John was very active in the Salvation Army