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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: Chris1286 on Wednesday 08 February 17 08:24 GMT (UK)
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Can anyone help on the above. I have his marriage certificate dated the 13.9.1939 when he married Jessie Ann Ritchie, she was born in 1910 at Macduff, Banarkshire.
What I have on the certificate is that William John Williams was 67 years old? It states that he was formerly married to Alice Elizabeth Williams, formerly Hunter. I have never seen that before on a certificate. Also the age difference, 67 to 29 years. They were married in Surrey. William was a Chief Steward Mercantile Marine. His father was Albert Williams (deceased) also a Chief Steward. He was also known as William Williams.
From Williams daughter after the marriage, the couple moved to Rock Ferry, Birkenhead. Jessie her Mum was a school teacher.
William worked for the Ellerman Shipping Line and his ship was sunk in the WW11. The ships he worked on were The City of Dunkirk or The City of Lillie. Neither were sunk according to the Ellerman Line website. From his daughter, he was rescued and taken to Brazil, where he was there for about 3 months? He returned home and was to ill to carry on in the Merchant Navy, so he worked on local ships in the Birkenhead area. She questions the age on the marriage certificate?
He died around 1950ish in the Birkenhead area. His daughter was a little girl.
Can anyone help in tracing this man?
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Have you found him on the 1939 register :-\
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No, Ive not found him in that register. Chris Reeves
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All I can find in Merchant Navy records is a Medal listing. With a date of birth of 1871. There is no way of knowing at this stage, if it is him.
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D4370529
Could you tell us his place of birth and if possible his exact date of birth.
Do you know when he served on CITY OF DUNKIRK or CITY OF LILLE?
I will contact poster HMac, who is somewhat of an expert on Ellerman Line. (His dad was torpedoed on CITY OF CARIO), to ask him for an opinion
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Thanks for your interest. I don't know much more about him. I am getting this information from his daughter, she was about 10 when he died. So she doesn't know much, all this has come from her mother who has passed on. I get the feeling that there might be some half truth in his storey? But what is on the marriage certificate is plain fact. I have a copy.
Chris Reeves
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I think you have found him SW born 12. January 1871, Liverpool.
He has a CR1 and CR2 detailing ships from 1925 to 1939. Will dig a bit more.
As per my website: http://www.sscityofcairo.co.uk/warlosses.php - neither of those ships were war losses. However, the last ship mentioned on his CR2 card, was CITY OF SHANGHAI. There is no date of engagement (sometimes the clerks missed things like that). We do know that this ship was torpedoed and sunk on 10/5/41 by U-103 (Schutze). We probably need to get his CRS 10 to find out his WW2 service record.
Added:* he is shown on CITY OF LILLE 3.12.1935.
Regards
Hugh
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This looks like a daughter from his first marriage:
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QKMR-X2HQ
The family are in Toxteth Park on the 1901 census.
William Williams and Alice Hunter married West Ham 1899.
Maureen
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Thanks Hugh.
It looks like CITY OF SHANGHAI is a likely contender for the ship he was torpedoed on. Unfortunately U Boat.net doesn't have a complete crew list for this vessel.
http://www.uboat.net/allies/merchants/crews/ship919.html
All very interesting, I hear you say but how do's this information help me find out what happened to him.
As mentioned by Hugh you need to get hold of his form CRS10
This should tell you all of his ships from early 1941. You can then look at the vessels crew agreement, which should tell you his Next of Kin and his last address. Armed with this info, You can then go on to look at other records to build a bigger picture.
Let us see what Hugh digs up.
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Where do I find the CRS10. Once again thanks for all the help. Chris Reeves
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You would need to visit The National Archive at Kew.
If anywhere it should be here.
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C10990190
These records are stored alphabetically in blocks of 60 names. Be sure to quote his Discharge number, 900223, this number is unique to him and will help distinguish him from the dozens of seamen named William Williams.
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Just for interest:
LIVERPOOL DIVORCE PETITIONS SEVENTY-NINE CASES FOR HEARING A list of seventy-seven petitions for divorce, and of two for decrees of
William John Williams, aged 68. chief steward of the Hall Line steamer City of Durham, and residing at the Sailors’ Home. Liverpool, against Alice Elizabeth Williams, formerly of Park Hill Road. Prenton, and Taj Mai, The Dell, Rock Ferry.
February 14, 1939 - Liverpool Daily Post - Liverpool, Merseyside, England
Maureen
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Once again Thanks for the help. Its a Fascinating storey. His daughter was born when he was over 70. Her mother was 32 years old. She courted William John Williams for 5 years before they married, not knowing he was still married to Alice Hunter. She has a photo album with all the places in the World he visited whilst in The Merchant Navy, her mother is in some of the pictures, so he took her to Sea. All the photo's of William have been torn out, so I wonder if Alice found it and destroyed them?
William had quite a large family with Alice Hunter, so there might be still some survivers. Once again thanks.
Chris Reeves
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Below is a transcription of his CR 2 MN record pre 1941.
Please note there will be mistakes and omissions in most of those cards as some voyages were not recorded.
Clearly he was an Ellerman City Line seaman.
CITY OF SYDNEY - 7-6-1923
MALATIAN – 21-1-1925
CITY OF OSAKA – 7-3-1926
CITY OF YOKOHAMA – 3-1-1928
CITY OF EXETER – 5-2-1929
CITY OF EVANSVILLE – 25-2-1929
CITY OF KOBE – 5-12-1932
CITY OF LYONS – 15-6-1933
CITY OF BEDFORD – 24-3-1934
CITY OF BEDFORD - 28-11-1934
CITY OF LILLE – 3-12-1935
CITY OF MELBOURNE – 13-4-1937
SERBINO – 10-10-1939
CITY OF SHANGHAI – no date of engagement.
Regards
Hugh
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Hello Chris, Your posting is fascinating to me because although I knew nothing of William till reading this I have a family tree going back to the late 1700's for his second wife Jessie Ann Richie on her Mum's side. Her mother was Margaret Cowie born Portgordon 26 April 1877 and her mother was the younger sister of my Gt Grandmother Annie Cowie. Their parents were Alexander Cowie ' dodel' born Portgordon and Jane Morrison born Nether Dallachy. Jessie Ann had an older sister Jane Morrison Ritchie and two older brothers Frank and Alexander. I could never find a marriage or death record for Jessie Ann as I was looking on Scotlands People but did not think of her being married in England. Your question has helped me find information on Jessie Ann. I can pm you more information on Jessie Ann's ancestors if you need it. Best regards Ann
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Sorry for not getting back. To hot in the sun lounge to do tree's during the Summer.
The lady I amd looking at her family for is the daughter of Jessie Ann Richie. Any information on that side of the family I would be glad to have. She married William John William in 1939 after he divorced his first wife. He was 67 years old and she was 29. She had been travelling with him on the vessels he served for about 5 years. I believe she never new he was still married?
Chris Reeves
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To Peacekeeper. Can you let me have a copy of the Ritchie family tree. My email is (*)
Thanks Chris
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In my collection I have the WW1 medals- Mercantile Marine and BWM medal for “William Williams”. I wonder if it was the same person?
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Hi sorry for not replying sooner, been abroad. His daughter suggest that he did recieve medals in the 1st World War but she never saw them. What is your story about them and who is your William Williams.
Chris Reeves