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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: BettyBoops on Tuesday 07 February 17 01:02 GMT (UK)
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G'day, Based on the information my dad gave me, his father was a photographer/touch up artist who operated somewhere in Sydney. Under the name given me, I've had no luck. The closest I've come is a photographer from Grafton. I'm still on his trail. Has anyone come across signed work done in gold ink? If so, apart from being elated, I'd like to know the name, which may help to finding my paternal family. The surname Dad went under is as common as Smith and Jones, but I don't want to mislead anyone by giving the name. Many thanks in advance for any help. Regards, Betty Ballard.
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Welcome to rootschat Betty.
I would advise giving his name. There could be dozens of photographers in NSW within that broad range of dates, who were signing in gold ink.was the gold ink an actual signature or just his name printed in gold ink?
Some examples of his photographs, the cardstock (ie the backs of the photos as well as the entire front including edges) as well as a scan of his signature might be helpful.
I am not sure that anyone would be willing to spend the time looking for photographers who signed in gold ink on the off chance that they might be your ancestor. :-\ I don't understand how giving his name would be misleading - the opposite in fact. :-\
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I wasn't sure how popular signatures in gold ink would be. I'm guessing he signed on the front because Dad was in NZ and spotted one of his father's works, which he recognized by the signature. The surname was supposed to have been Stevens. My hope is that, just on the off chance, someone happens across a photo. I certainly wouldn't want anyone to spend hours looking through a photography haystack! :) Thank you, Betty
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O, and also, I'm striking out on finding any of his family, or even placing Dad, in Sydney further back than 1921. He was born in 1898. Cheers, Betty
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Hi Betty.
If you give us the details of his birth and anything you know about his parents and his movements, someone is sure to be able to help you. I am not sure if this request might be better on the Australia board. :-\
Some of the sleuths over there might be able to help with your photo too.
Let me know if you would like it moved and I will ask a moderator to do that for you. :) I think you will get a better response.
Added: you didn't say if it was a printed signature or a written one?
Added: what is the photograph of? Do you have a first name or initial for Mr Stevens? We really need more information. For example I found a Henry Stevens who was a landscape photographer .... :-\
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Firstly, Ruskie, any assistance is GREATLY appreciated. I've been searching on and off over the past few years, and more intently these past few months, as well as a daughter. And now, another on-line friend has come on board. My dad is a difficult man to track down.
I only know from what Dad (Robert Stevens) said about his parents and siblings.
Father - Walter. Mother - Kathleen. Sisters - Rita and Shelagh (or is it Sheila?). Brother - Colin.
Lived in Gosford, Sydney. Walter worked as a touch-up artistic photographer in Sydney.
Robert sung in Church (of England) choir. Colin was keen on trains.
Walter did well with his business as he sent Colin and Robert overseas with a tutor. The thing is, Robert had an accent, not too dissimilar to an Indian/Burmese. I had heard him speak what I took to be Hindi on a couple of occasions. Though not much was said of it.
Robert was in the first WW. I know not where, as like so many of his time, little was said. It would appear (through friend's tracking) that he left Sydney for Wellington, NZ, in 1921. I know he worked there 1922/23 (May). The reference included "W" for the middle initial. A later reference (hand written) has what looks like a "H" as the middle initial. He was back in NSW around August 1923. Through work references, I can pretty much track Robert Stevens until he died.
I hope this will help, Ruskie. And many thanks, Betty
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I'm guessing the signature was written (this is circa 1890-1920).
As Dad only let himself be known as Robert, I've no idea what the middle initial stood for, as I only read the documents (work references) after he and mum had passed away.
Kathleen Stevens (his mum), was nee Johnstone. Gleaned from Wedding Certificate of my parents.
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And I've absolutely no idea if Walter concentrated on portraits, landscapes or other general types of photography. The information I've given is only what was told to me (and what I selfishly took the time to listen to:-\) in my youth.
Robert was born 1895 (he says, but could have been as late as 1898) in Sydney. I'm beginning to question those dates and location based on my searches.
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I'm off to Sydney (live in Warnbro, Western Australia) on Saturday and during the week's stay in Sydney I'm going to the library as well as visiting a couple of the cemeteries in the Gosford area. I had hoped to gain some knowledge from CofE confirmation records 1905-1910, but my understanding is that the library has that information. Cheers
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Thank you for the additional information Betty - that should help.
I will request that a moderator moves this thread to the Australia board. There are some excellent researchers over there who I hope will be able to help.
:)
Added: It might help in the search if you could scan and post the photograph and signature. You say you don't know what kind of photographer he was - what is the photograph of that you have?
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I'm sorry, Ruskie, but I don't have any photos. It's all just what Robert said. As my husband is a Kiwi they were discussing the town as that is also where hubby had lived. Many thanks, cheers. And happy for you to move it across. :)
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Ok thanks Betty.
This is wrong location and era, but this is the kind of thing I was thinking of with the gold embossed signature:
http://genealogy.about.com/od/photo_dating/p/cabinet_card.htm
It is not uncommon.
In my opinion, it might be wise to trace the family where possible using the 'usual' methods, and see if this leads to any of the family having occupations related to photography, rather than focussing solely on his occupation as a way to find the family. :) I hope that makes sense. :)
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Thank you, Ruskie. Yes, I see where you are coming from. I've still yet to trace my dad back to his roots. So will try and do that over the next few days. Will you be passing this on to the Australian researchers as well? As I feel they may be able to access places I can't.
Also, if needed, I can put up a photo of Robert, but he is an "older" person, as I don't have one of him younger than about 50 years of age.
Cheers, Betty
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You missed my first line in our last correspondence.
I'm sorry, Ruskie, but I don't have any photos. It's all just what Robert said
Cheers,Betty
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You missed my first line in our last correspondence.
I'm sorry, Ruskie, but I don't have any photos. It's all just what Robert said
Cheers,Betty
No Betty. I did see that. :)
This thread is now on the Australia board and has a subject title which is appropriate to your search. At this time it is probably not necessary to add a photo of Robert.
(Many thanks for moving this Sarah. :) )
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A couple of questions I'm afraid Betty ....
When and where did Robert die?
Who did he marry and do you have the marriage certificate? What was his occupation on the marriage certificate?
I have had a (quick) look at some electoral rolls and can't easily see any Stevens in the photographic trade in NSW.
If Robert had a middle initial, it is easy to see the confusion as an M and H can look similar when written.
If Walter was a photographic touch up artist I am wondering about the signature. I would have thought it would be the studio which had their name on the photo rather than the 'artist'. What was Walter's occupation on Robert's marriage certificate?
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Have you searched for him here?
http://www.naa.gov.au/collection/explore/defence/service-records/army-wwi.aspx
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Hi Betty,
I think it's Walter Stevens who was a photographer - is that correct? Or was Robert also a photographer?
Looking at NSW state records at index to register of firms http://indexes.records.nsw.gov.au/
There is a firm called The Trade Finishing Company, photographic work, 23 Market St, Sydney, registered 6 sep 1911, John Septimus STEVENS (person carrying on business).
That's the only STEVENS in the index related to photography. Could it be a brother, father?
Ros
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Hi Betty,
If your mother is now deceased, it may be a helpful point to start with if you could give details on their marriage certificate.
It will contain information given by your father about himself, and may just contain a clue to move forward with.
Sue
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Some familiar names here from NSW BMD indexes, though they don't tally with what you've told us:
Birth
STEVENS RITA I
birth registered 1913
father: ROBERT C
Mother: ORELLIA M
District: REDFERN
And this one registered in both Murwillumbah and Lismore in 1914:
STEVENS RITA F
mother: KATHLEEN O
No father named
They may fit into your tree somewhere.
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Betty,
Do you know where and approx when Walter died? I think you were also suggesting that there could have been a name change?
On browsing through the probates for Walter Stevens in NSW https://www.records.nsw.gov.au/ I notice that there are a couple with alternative names given.
https://www.records.nsw.gov.au/item/1011824
https://www.records.nsw.gov.au/item/1117286
If you see a likely probate record for him (have a look at the rest too) then I can photograph it for you.
Ros
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At the New Zealand Archives online index there’s a digitised NZ Defence Force WWI file for a Robert STEVENS, SA9827, WWI 17/187 Army.
https://www.archway.archives.govt.nz/
....
Robert was in the first WW. I know not where, as like so many of his time, little was said. It would appear (through friend's tracking) that he left Sydney for Wellington, NZ, in 1921. ....
JM
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Dad (Robert) died 18 June 1984. Mum (Myrtle nee MAYFIELD) died 12 Dec 2002.
Wedding Certificate details re Robert -
Married 6 Dec 1941 in Childers - Robert listed as labourer (cutting cane in the Isis District)
Bachelor - 46yrs - DOB 20 April 1895 - BIRTHPLACE Sydney - FATHER Walter - MOTHER Kathleen (nee Johnstone)
Cheers, Betty
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…. The Mayor then presented Mr Murphy with the address, which was exquisitely printed and illuminated by Mr W Stevenson, photographer of Grafton and handsomely framed….
Daily Examiner, Grafton 17 Oct 1929.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/195243621
From the Electoral Roll, 1930, COWPER, polling at Grafton
Walter Thomas George STEVENSON, 72 Fitzroy St, photographer
Eldred Lionel STEVENSON, 72 Fitzroy St, photographer
From Sands NSW 1925 Directory
W STEVENSON, photographer, GRAFTON (I could NOT find an entry for STEVENS, photographer, Grafton, sorry).
From Sands NSW 1919 Directory for GRAFTON and GRAFTON SOUTH
W STEVENSON, Photographer
From Sands NSW Country Directory 1909
W STEVENSON, photographer, GRAFTON
http://www.cityofsydney.nsw.gov.au/learn/search-our-collections/sands-directory
From NSW Electoral roll 1902 COWPER, polling Grafton
Angelina STEVENSON, Fitzroy Street, domestic duties
Water STEVENSON, Fitzroy Street, photographer
There are electors with surname STEVENS at that polling place, but NONE with given names Walter or Robert and NONE with occupation as photographer.
JM
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Oh, and as they were living in Gosford when Dad was growing up, and Walter's photography business was somewhere in Sydney, I assume Walter and Kathleen died in Sydney. As Dad was a member of the CofE choir, again, I assumed the family were of that faith - or maybe Catholic.
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NSW Electoral Roll 1902 NORTH SYDNEY, polling at Gosford
NO entries for the surname STEVENS or variations.
JM
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JM - I have done some tracking of Walter (Thomas George) STEVENSON and he had a son, Eldrid and daughter, Violet. Father was Josiah and Mother-Georgina. Married in Grafton. I almost suspected he was of Jewish decent. I don't know if there were other children to the marriage. Ta, Betty.
I'll be back in a couple of hours.
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Oh, good, JM. I'm glad I wasn't the only one to come to that end either.
Then there is the Indian connection. If he could still speak the language (and retain an accent) into his 80s he must have spent a few years in India/Burma in his young childhood.
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Assuming Robert did alter his surname I do have work references:
10 May 1923 - Mangahao Hydro Electric - States that R W Stevens worked for 15 months etc (typed)
25 Aug 1923 - "Forest Home" Matcham - Robert worked for 3 months ....
13 Apr 1925 - R H Stevens (hand written) worked for nearly 2 years ... "Wakefield" SCONE.
So it is a definite he was using Robert Stevens from 1922.
Cheers, Betty (not Elizabeth, and only one name, as Dad said people rarely used a middle name.)
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Another couple of snippets, which may help. And again, they are only what was told to me
Robert was left money from a Will but refused it as he hadn't earned it.
As a child, him and his brother were sent around the world with a tutor.
Reading his references, and hearing what people thought of him, and of course growing up with him, he was a man of high morals and principals, so his "disguise" could have been to "hide" from the money. Does that make sense? TIF Betty
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What was Robert's birthday? We can search NSW BDM for a particular day.
And when and where did he die?
Ros
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As mentioned on the wedding certificate to my mum, 18 April 1895.
I've posted the details on the wedding certificate. Betty
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Here's the live link to the free to search NSW BDM indexes :) You can enter the dates in the dialogue boxes on the relevant pages.
http://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/Pages/family-history/family-history.aspx
JM
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Sorry Ros, he died in Perth 18 June, 1984. Betty
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Re "Wakefield" Scone NSW
Sands Pastoral Directory 1920
UPPER HUNTER DISTRICT
Mrs B PAGE, Wakefield, Scone. 26 horses, 140 cattle, - 917 acres.
JM
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Trove has plenty of info re Wakefield, Scone in the 1920s.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/?q=
JM
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Hi
Did your aunts and uncle marry ? if so do you know the name of their spouses ?
Muss
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Apologies for the mixup in names, JM :(
The BDM fizzled out. Without sitting with a map of the Gosford area, I tried Gosford, Kincumber and Sydney, and as someone else said, there were no Stevens' in the area at that time. :( Cheers Betty
I'm excited to view the Wakefield news. Ta
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Did Walter Stevenson of Grafton have any other children aside from Eldrid and Sybil Violet Oram? Just wondering why Robert would be deceptive in the issue of siblings/names.
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Live in Gosford and Work in Sydney .... even in this century it seems to be a very time consuming exercise to live Gosford and Work in Sydney.
Do you know the decade that Walter was living Gosford, working Sydney? Do you know whereabouts in Sydney - CBD, or in the suburbs?
JM
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Info on Walter' STEVENSON's Dad
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/61262888 7 August 1894 Clarence & Richmond Examiner.
ADD
Walter's Grafton studio named "Vice-regal studios " http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/61629270 16 May 1914 Clarence & Richmond Examiner
JM
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Hi Muss - Robert's sisters and brother's names are just here-say, as I have never met/spoke/heard from them. What became of them was never discussed (in my presence). Betty
Oh, HUGE blunder on my part. Robert's DOB IS 20 April (not 18th)1895. oops
MAJM - I understood Walter to travel by train, and the business was in Sydney cbd. The latter was an assumption, as Dad would say the father had a shop in Sydney.
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MAJM - As Walter was a photographer when Dad was a child, and apparently well established in the profession, I'd say anywhere between 1870 to 1930. Betty
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http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/193823807 9 March 1945. Daily Examiner, Grafton.
death of Eldred Stevenson
So, Walter STEVENS by train Gosford to Sydney well - Sydney Harbour Bridge not finished until 1932, so the train came Gosford - Hornsby etc to Central via Strathfield. The railway bridge across the Hawkesbury, at Brooklyn opened in about 1889 (relying on memory). Again, from memory - Electric trains to Hornsby (from Central) started just before the Great Depression, so about 1929ish...
JM
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I am currently waiting on one of my elderly rellies to return my phone call, he worked in the photographic trade prior to WWII, in Sydney CBD. He has a reliable memory so to write, ;D
Fingers crossed he can give me some clues as to where to start to join the dots to help sort.
JM
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Deceased Estate: https://tinyurl.com/julxytj
STEVENSON, Walter Thomas George; Grafton; DoD 01/02/1934; Occupation: photographer
NSW death: 17688/1953 STEVENSON Angelina; Father-William; Mother-Sarah Ann; Paddington
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/18379427
IN the Will of ANGELINA STEVENSON late of Randwick near Sydney, in the State of New South Wales, Widow deceased -Application will...
...may be granted to Sybil Violet Oram the sole Executrix named In the said Will...
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Hope I am not posting a link already given
Obituary Walter T G STEVENSON.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/193592422
It contains information which suggests this is the right track thanks to JM and others. ;D
References to Choir work and accumulation of wealth as referenced by Betty, as well as the photography.
Sue
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NSW marriage: 15779/1913 ORAM, Edward T. and STEVENSON, Sybil V. ; Grafton
NSW Death: 1549/1977 ORAM, Sybil Violet; Father-Walter Thomas George; Mother-Angelina
Probate notice: https://tinyurl.com/jejjkm6 (pg 18 in this link)...executors Richard Thompson ORAM and John Thompson ORAM
3815/1983 ORAM, John Thompson; Father-Edward Thompson; Mother-Sybil Violet
Wife Joan ORAM death notice http://tributes.smh.com.au/obituaries/smh-au/obituary.aspx?pid=175205197
ORAM, Richard Thompson death 29JAN1990; age 70; late of Bexley North; SMH 15FEB1990
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Yes, Sybil noted as Eldred's sister in the 1945 article. He was the only son of Wally & Mrs Stephenson
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/193823807 9 March 1945. Daily Examiner, Grafton.
death of Eldred Stevenson
JM
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NSW marriage: 4831/1883 STEVENSON, Walter T.G. and AUSTIN, Angelina; Grafton
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Ancestry has some info http://www.rootschat.com/links/01jg8/
PHOTO: Stevenson Family Eldred (Dick) Angelina Walter & Sybil
ATTACHED TO: Angelina Austin (born 1866)
PHOTO: Stevenson Family Eldred (Dick) Angelina Walter & Sybil
ATTACHED TO: Walter Thomas George Stevenson (born 1862)
PHOTO: Stevenson Family Eldred (Dick) Angelina Walter & Sybil
ATTACHED TO: Sybil Violet Stevenson (born 1885)
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May be of interest http://ancestorsanddescendantsofehudgale.blogspot.com.au
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Here's a list of photographers in the Sydney Camera Circle founded 1916, but I guess these are more artistic photographers than business photographers ...?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sydney_Camera_Circle
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:)
Sands Sydney Directories
back in the 1880s, and still there during WWI and later:
318 George St, Sydney
Freeman & Co, Ltd, photographers.
JM
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http://archival-classic.sl.nsw.gov.au/item/itemDetailPaged.aspx?itemid=825450
75,000 negatives
JM
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These news items relate to the death of a woman named Kathleen JOHNSTON.
She died in North Sydney and was 32 years of age. It is hinted that the death was "unusual" but an inquest was not held as it appeared to be from natural causes.
It is not clear whether or not she was married.
I cannot see the death on the registration indexes.
Perhaps others will have luck, and I'll keep looking.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/229303533
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/14598592
Funeral to Rookwood
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/14598645
Sue
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Gosh, thanks JM :) When I'm in Sydney next week I'll try and make it to the library and see what I can see. Betty
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I had a little bit of good fortune. i contacted one of the Tree Custodians of Walter Stevenson regarding having a look at photos, and she has already responded. I did let her know about the vagueness of the information that we are searching with. She may be able to offer up more info on the Josiah link. Betty
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hi
Maybe clutching at straws here from Family search
Kathleen Anne Johnston married 15 Oct 1885 India to Walter Eurie Seale
children Sheila Gertude Harrette Seale 1886 Bengal India
Colin 1889 Bengal India
Muss
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Muss, those straws are as useful as the many others I have had a hold of! ;D ;D I don't know where you found them, but if there is some way I can be set onto that trail, I'm happy to give it a go. Do we look for a Seale as a photographer in Australia? Can we find out if/when they came to Australia? One thought within the family is, Robert, like so many other soldiers, may have "stolen" the name.
I only have a small window tomorrow to go on the computer as we go to Sydney on Saturday, so any checks of the internet will be on my phone. So apologies in advance if I don't appear to be checking. Thanks so much. Betty
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Muss, you have found the strongest link yet. Hugz - A daughter has been searching for a couple of years, but because of work etc, I've only been able to put in a full-time effort the past couple of months as I'm now retired. Thank you. Like a dog on a scent, I'm going to run with this one!!! Betty
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hi
Maybe clutching at straws here from Family search
Kathleen Anne Johnston married 15 Oct 1885 India to Walter Eurie Seale
children Sheila Gertude Harrette Seale 1886 Bengal India
Colin 1889 Bengal India
Muss
Walter Earle Seale, 1856 - 1937
https://www.myheritage.com/names/walter_seale
http://www.familytreebuilder.com/person-3000182_77713681_77713681/walter-earle-seale
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As I'm not a member of "familytreebuilder", I searched via Ancestry, and contacted a Tree member. So will wait and see what comes of it. So much of the information is absolutely the closest yet. And his Walter was a photographer!. Muss, you excel :)
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Looking very good .
Fantastic work Muss ;D ;D ;D
Sue
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;D yes, Muss, looking good.
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familytreebuilder - Meant to be. My dear MOTH had joined earlier last year on a trial, and as we are both feeling the most confident ever, I've joined the site. It seems to be the most comprehensive. OOOo I feel like a kid about to go on a special journey. Trying not to, as these things can be full of disappointments. Another thing which I hadn't disclosed until now, is Robert's age at my time of birth. It was 56 - now its pushed out to 61!! He was an active man - obviously :) :) Cheers, Betty
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Seems Sheila married in India.
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FGJ2-6VR
(error in father's name)
Sue
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Yes, through familytreebuilder I was able to build up a good line on that family - except for Colin. His tracks stop dead. I'm having trouble finding his movements from India. There was a Colin Seale who died in England aged 70. Praying he belongs to someone else, as the Tree I'm following has a ? against their Colin. Ta Betty
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Wondering about this marriage?
Walter Earl SEALE and Lily Dorothy JONES
Event Date: 23 Feb 1925
Event Place: Secunderabad, Madras, India
Father's Name: Walter Earl Seale
Spouse's Father's Name: Walter Jones
Spouse's Mother's Name: Allice
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FGVN-PFH
May be worth checking: (since Sheila married in Jhansi 1915 and listed Father as Colin Seale. Sheila's DoB shown as 1888 instead of 1886, but that could be mistranscribed)
Military records; Indian Army Regiments: Indian Army Reserve of Officers (I.A.R.O.)
Colin Ian Seale https://tinyurl.com/zpsg7n2
Adding: https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/29993/page/2769/data.pdf
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These may be of interest (some of these have images that can be viewed at libraries)
https://tinyurl.com/zbq97qm
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FGKT-XN5
https://tinyurl.com/glkqv8t
https://tinyurl.com/jogn6jc
https://tinyurl.com/hnexwt4
https://tinyurl.com/jj6vsgx
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If I could see a signature of Colin's that would help. One day. :)
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If I could see a signature of Colin's that would help. One day. :)
Maybe Colin signed as a witness on Sheila's marriage?
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Ive looked and looked at the wedding details, and it seems the whole document was written in one hand. Another thing. Though it's not familial (I think), but Kathleen died of pernicious aneanmia. Dad also had a very severe case of it, when he would have been 80. Thanks for these sites. Brilliant. Ta Betty
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Though it's not familial (I think), but Kathleen died of pernicious aneanmia. Dad also had a very severe case of it, when he would have been 80. Thanks for these sites. Brilliant. Ta Betty
Appears to be hereditary http://chealth.canoe.com/condition/getcondition/pernicious-anemia
Pernicious anemia is caused by a deficiency of vitamin B12, which is needed for normal production of red blood cells. It is often hereditary.
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Was it Robert who told you the cause of death of Kathleen?
Had he ever mentioned any other particulars about her life and death?
By the way ;D. Who do you think Robert was speaking to when he used Hindi?
Sue
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I read the transcription on Kathleen's death which gave the cause. same for Walter.
I had seen Dad write in the language (he told me it was shorthand. I was about 11 or 12 at the time and I've only just recalled it, after seeing some writing. I was with him when he spoke to a lady. I was told the story of a fellow who came to town. No one could understand him, and dad happened along and translated. And later, when I was working as Post Office telephonist, he made a trunk call (which I thought odd, as we had a phone at home) and I heard him speaking in a strange language then, but only very briefly in case the supervisor was listening in to me :)
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Robert apparantely sung in a church choir (he did have an amazing voice, and the ability to whistle on a gum leaf). His mother could play the piano and sing, as so could his sister. But not his dad. If this is the right family, then I follow his dad!
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Wondering about this marriage?
Walter Earl SEALE and Lily Dorothy JONES
Event Date: 23 Feb 1925
Event Place: Secunderabad, Madras, India
Father's Name: Walter Earl Seale
Spouse's Father's Name: Walter Jones
Spouse's Mother's Name: Allice
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FGVN-PFH
Wondering if the above is Colin?
Should have info on marriage like bachelor/spinster, ages & signatures, witness etc (if you have access to view this image) http://www.rootschat.com/links/01jgu/
On your parents marriage, Robert is states he is a 'Bachelor' age 46 (or older ;)) not unheard of but quite unusual.
What was Myrtle's age on the marriage certificate?
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She was 19. Caused a bit of a stir at the time. Her dad tried to discredit him, but too many people were willing to come forth with high recommendations to his character.
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That Colin Seale is definitely not dad. Just compared the writing. :-X
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From marriage image http://www.rootschat.com/links/01jgu/
What were their ages? bachelor/spinster? or names of witnesses?
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Mum and Dad's? Mum 19, unmarried. Dad, 46 Bachelor. Witnesses were the woman who made Mum's dress and somebody dad worked with. Just the 2 at the Registry office. in Childers.
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Mum and Dad's?
Sorry for the misunderstanding, I meant from marriage image http://www.rootschat.com/links/01jgu/
What are the details on this one please (if you have access to view the image) What were their ages? bachelor/spinster? or names of witnesses?
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The written transcription was issued in 1960. No ages given.
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The written transcription was issued in 1960. No ages given.
Can you view the image? (Camera icon). I don't have access to view the marriage image (camera), but most libraries have access.
Interesting, here the marriage to JONES he is listed as John SEALE
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01jgv/
First name(s): John
Last name: SEALE
Spouse's last name: JONES
Marriage year: 1925
Place: Secunderabad
Presidency: Madras
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Can I be directed to the schooling link for Sheila and Colin Seale? This may provide an insight. He was very well educated, but once away from India (assuming Colin is Robert) he did quite a few labouring/farm jobs until he commenced work at the local hospital.
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I read the transcription on Kathleen's death which gave the cause. same for Walter.
Sorry if I seem "left behind " on this.
But do you have the transcription of Kathleen's death. ::) ???
Sue
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Sue,
I am assuming it is noted on her burial record (camera icon) https://tinyurl.com/hnexwt4
I don't have access to this particular one so cannot be sure what details are on there, but cause of death is usually on British India (Church) burial records.
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Ahh, thanks for the explanation. ;D
Can't see it either :(
Sue
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Hi guys I'm on my phone 4 the next 10 days so will do my best. Is the attachment readable? Can someone please look up the details for Robert, brother to Walter? Has he died, or still floating around?
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There was an estate dispute http://tinyurl.com/ja67lk4
(Various spellings) SEALE v BROWN
...Certain persons, being executors of the will of an Englishman domiciled in India...
....from the defendants Sarah Emma Saale, Robert Edward Seale, and William Frederick Seale, acting as executrix and executors of the will of the late Colonel Robert Henry Seale, deceased, the owner of the said estate..
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What a read. Thank you :)
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I've had confirmation that the Walter Stevenson photographer of Grafton is definitely not my dad/s family. Each of my older daughters, husband and I still feel Seales are the hottest favourite. Being on hols over East from the West, I'm limited with searching but keenly check each day in case one of you comes up with a gem of a find. I'm really curious to find when Colin left Bengal and to where. Was it to WW1? Hmm Keep your feet dry in the West, and stay cool in the East. :)
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Hi
From The Pioneer Mail and Indian weekly News 26 Nov 1920
GRANT - at Cawnpore Georgina M? Hospital 11 Nov 1920 at 11pm HILDA GRANT daughter of Mr and Mrs Walter Earl Seale and Grand Daughter of Major General Robert Henry Seale of The Hon East India Company service aged 25 years.
Muss
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Hi
From Family search HIlda born 1895 wife of George Oscar Grant married 10 may 1917 Jhansi, Bengal India
Father listed as Walton Earle Seale
Muss
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Hi
From The Pioneer Mail and Indian weekly News 26 Nov 1920
GRANT - at Cawnpore Georgina M? Hospital 11 Nov 1920 at 11pm HILDA GRANT daughter of Mr and Mrs Walter Earl Seale and Grand Daughter of Major General Robert Henry Seale of The Hon East India Company service aged 25 years.
Muss
Adding link (see pg 43, right-hand column DEATHS) http://www.rootschat.com/links/01jh1/
GRANT - at Cawnpore Georgina MacRobert Hospital...
(Adding for interest) Alexander founded the Georgina MacRobert Hospital, after his wife Georgina died of Cancer http://www.themacroberttrust.org.uk/annualreport2016/index.html#6
Hilda GRANT Headstone photo may provide more information
FIBIS http://www.rootschat.com/links/01jh0/
Hilda GRANT
All Souls' Church Kanpur
Burial Year: 1920
Ref No: ASB256
Photo No: P1080617
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Hi
From The Seale Family of the Island of St Helena data base
Lt Robert Henry Seale son of Major William Seale and his wife Mary Alexander.
Robert born 6 Jun 1806 mar 1 Jan 1836 died 1 Apr 1869 wife Sarah Emma Taylor
Muss
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http://www.rootschat.com/links/01jh2/
Seale, Colin; Born 1887 — Event 1905; British Army Service Records; Dehra Dun, India
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Muss-just took notes of your comments. I concede that Hilda/Rita could be the same person as it was my mum who mentioned names and it's probable that I've confused the name, though my notes do go back 20yrs. Who knows. Anyway, I hope you are deriving some pleasure from these searches, as to me they are exciting. Many thanks for your diligent searching.
And not to leave you out, either, cupoflife as you are obviously having a bit of a dig into this little bit of history. Thank you. If the latest Colin Seale is the same person, and my dad, then he's aging! Other records do say 1889. :-\ It enhances the mystery.
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hi
I think that Robert is another son who was born to Walter and Kathleen. Is there a researcher in India who has access to the birth records ?. Your father said his brother Colin liked trains.
I do like a mystery and I am having a great deal of fun.
Happy to help
Muss
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If the latest Colin Seale is the same person, and my dad, then he's aging! Other records do say 1889. :-\ It enhances the mystery.
I would not be surprised that both Colin's are the same man, original birth recorded 1889 and Army records birth 1887 to get into the Army, making him 18. There was some fudging in order to get into the Army, as my ancestor did the same, increased his age (from 15yrs 9mths) to 18yrs 1mth get into the Army (used his brothers year of birth).
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I have NOT found Colin Seale or Robert Seale in my hardcopy NSW electoral Rolls ie pre-1930. ::)
This is one of those very intriguing and interesting threads, and I am an avid reader !
JM
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hi
I think that Robert is another son who was born to Walter and Kathleen. Is there a researcher in India who has access to the birth records ?. Your father said his brother Colin liked trains.
I do like a mystery and I am having a great deal of fun.
Happy to help
Muss
You may well be right Muss,
Other family records, death notices or headstone transcriptions may prove useful. They were quite a prominent family so bound to have newspaper articles.
There are LDS family history centers in Australia. Parramatta in Sydney NSW, specialises in India records. Volunteers transcribe records, so they have a collection of British India microfilms onsite. Having said that, it is quite a time consuming task, some very difficult to read, so easy to make mistakes or miss names when transcribing. If you have the time it may be well worth trawling through again. I have done that on past ocassions and found records that were mistranscribed or missed altogether. I would start with records already available online, through libraries (State libraries usually have wider subscription to access more records)
LDS family history center 169 Pennant St; North Parramatta (02) 9683-5849 http://www.transcriptions.com.au/pages/ldsnsw.php
Very good knowledge and used to volunteer at Parramatta http://www.unlockthepast.com.au/our-team/sylvia-murphy May be worthwhile ringing ahead and making some enquiries.
Yes, quite a mystery...but love a good hunt :)
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Majm- Robert has work ref in 1922-23 over in NZ then he went to Matcham nsw. A friend found a Robert Stevens who sailed on Ulimara 21/04/1921 to NZ. Soo, backwards 1922 who went where?
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Juggled schedule n @ gr8 risk 2 womankind we are driving to Paramatta 2mora ;D ;D
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(Pg 115) not a very flattering description: http://www.rootschat.com/links/01jh4/
...Mrs Weller was a hypochondriac; John Connolly was a violent and abusive drunk; Robert Seale, the young nephew of the Colonial Secretary was physically (and pethaps also mentally) disabled, such that he was "incapable of rendering the least service"....
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What you suggest I concentrate on in my search? Just the family of Walter, Kathleen and off spring and estate? Which hopefully might lead to something.
Another titbit of info, which may help with the immigrating side of things. Apparently Robert was sent "around the world" with a tutor. Could there have been other Seale rellies in Gosford say between 1900-1910 with whom they stayed? I'm just reluctant to dismiss Gosford completely. Cheers betty
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the rellies of Colin on army record are Walter, Kathleen, Sheila and Hilda. All known quantities for this branch.
Also, back to the trip overseas, after seeing the army record, maybe look between 1895-1905? Ta Betty
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..... maybe look between 1895-1905?...
;D ;D ;D
E L U S I V E :D :D
SEALE/STEVENS/STEPHENSON or variations
NSW ER 1902/3 NORTH SYDNEY (dd = domestic duties) remember, Nth Sydney started at Milsons Pt and goes to Morisset.
Polling at:
Brooklyn -NONE by those surnames
Cooranbong – STEVENSON only :
Harriet Jane Matilda, dd
Richard, mill hand
Thomas, mill hand
William, (at Martinsville) teamster
Gosford – NONE by those surnames
Jilliby – NONE by those surnames
Kincumber – STEPHENS & STEVENS only
Mary Ann Stephens (at Davistown) dd
Clarabella Ever STEVENS, dd
Cyril Francis William STEVENS, farmer
Ethel Irene STEVENS,dd
Lower Mangrove – NONE by those surnames
Mangrove -Creek – NONE by those surnames
Ourimbah – Robert Stevens, farmer (needed to be 21 or more to enrol )
Port Erina – John Stephens, baker
Wamberal – NONE by those surnames
Have you tried the City of Sydney’s online Sands Directories?
http://www.cityofsydney.nsw.gov.au/learn/search-our-collections/sands-directory
JM
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What do you make of this?
Western Mail 9Dec1898 PORT OF FREMANTLE http://www.rootschat.com/links/01jh7/
DEPARTURES
December 2.
Adelaide, s.s.; 1,164 tons, Captain Davies, for the Eastern colonies. Passengers: .....
Lyon and child, Roberts, Seal and two children,
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Certainly won't discount the Fremantle passengers - yet. :)
Some of those Stevens' I feel I know well, coming across them in my researchin so often. Lol Thank you x
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Hi
Where did your father work in New Zealand ?
Muss
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Hi Muss. Wet as here in Sydney, so staying close 2 unit (Darling Harbour) rather than drive on unknown roads. He worked for the Mangahao Power Station at Shannon. Ref has his name as Robert W. Stevens 1922-23. Probably due to my lack of knowledge but I couldn't backtrack him to Australia and a friend who had a go found the one Robert who left Sydney for Wellington in 1921. Ta Betty
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Didn't think I'd look forward to getting home to a computer so much. Lol Still a week to go. I want you to know I'm really appreciating the time, the effort and the cuppas you are putting in to the searches. Betty
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Other than hearsay, you have nothing to truly place Robert in Australia until his shipping departure to NZ in 1921. No documented evidence.
So, as another straw for clutching, I offer this. :o
Inward passenger list to UK.
Year 1919 Ship Morvada. Shipping line, British India S. Navigt. Co.
Voyage Australia via Bombay to London
R. STEVENS
Aged 37
Schoolmaster,
Embarked Bombay. To land Plymouth
Country of last permanent residence. India
Country of intended permanent residence, Overlynch Farmhouse, Surrey.
Sue
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Unfortunately sparret we think that straw is too short to hold. :( But, and again I will be glad to get home to a computer, I'd like to give some further attention to a Robert C Stevens, married to Orellia, father of Rita. To see how far back that Robert can be traced to. Às he could be closer to the age. Thank you so much x Betty
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I'd like to give some further attention to a Robert C Stevens, married to Orellia, father of Rita. To see how far back that Robert can be traced to. Às he could be closer to the age. Thank you so much x Betty
NSW Marriage:
24/9/1912 # 8904 Robert E. STEVENS and Orellia M. PODESTA; Sydney
http://members.pcug.org.au/~cfield/distantf/FOUR3.htm#x4x30p4x1
MARIE ORELLIA PODESTA
born 19/6/1891
married 24/9/1912 to ROBERT REGINALD STEVENS
died 28/8/1974 aged 83
parents: GIOVANNI PODESTA and EVANGELINE GERTRUDE PODESTA (nee FIELD)
children: RITA I, KEITH ELWYN, ROY STANLEY, VALERIE
http://members.pcug.org.au/~cfield/distantf/414note.htm#x4x30p4x1
ROBERT REGINALD STEVENS , son of CHARLES and EMMA (nee ALLPORT), was born 1893 and died 17/8/1966 at REDFERN "aged 74"
NSW marriage: 4524/1889 Charles STEVENS and Emma ALLPORT; Forbes
NSW Birth: 13365/1893 Robert R. STEVENS; Charles; Emma; Forbes
NSW Death: 17/8/1966 Robert Reginald STEVENS; Charles; Emma; Sydney
Death notice: STEVENS, Robert Reginald SMH18Aug1966 pg22 (pg12 in this link) http://www.rootschat.com/links/01jhx/
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Tank you. Another dead ender crossed off. Ta Betty
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The thing is, Robert had an accent, not too dissimilar to an Indian/Burmese. I had heard him speak what I took to be Hindi on a couple of occasions.
Just a comment here.
Knowing what I do of the speech and language development in children, I would say if his spoken English was accented, it was because his first learnt and used language was not English.
Perhaps it was Hindi as you suggest
The sounds needed for the first (primary) language are acquired and retained in the very early years. The second language, (in this case English) acquired later, may have imperfections of sound which create ”accent”
I would suggest that the SEALE couple were English-speaking. That should therefore be his first language. Not Hindi.
So have yet another inconsistency in the stories.
Sue
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The thing is, Robert had an accent, not too dissimilar to an Indian/Burmese. I had heard him speak what I took to be Hindi on a couple of occasions.
Just a comment here.
Knowing what I do of the speech and language development in children, I would say if his spoken English was accented, it was because his first learnt and used language was not English.
Perhaps it was Hindi as you suggest
The sounds needed for the first (primary) language are acquired and retained in the very early years. The second language, (in this case English) acquired later, may have imperfections of sound which create ”accent”
I would suggest that the SEALE couple were English-speaking. That should therefore be his first language. Not Hindi.
So have yet another inconsistency in the stories.
Sue
If he was taught by a tutor to speak Indian Language/s as a child born/growing up in India, he may well have developed an accent, different to his English parents who may have only experienced the dialect later in life as adults.
Betty, do you have any concrete evidence of Robert before his adult time in NZ/Australia?
Any evidence of his family/places he visited/photos/letters/records/school reports/any hints of service/clubs like Masonic Lodge etc?
If Robert was supposed to be born in NSW, is there any evidence of Robert growing up in Ausrtalia. Did he ever speak of places/towns/schools/his teachers names/school friends/any clubs or activities like footy/cricket etc.
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If he was taught by a tutor to speak Indian Language/s as a child born/growing up in India, he may well have developed an accent, different to his English parents who may have only experienced the dialect later in life as adults.
Ah, well, I will have to disagree with you on this one.
Sue
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If he was taught by a tutor to speak Indian Language/s as a child born/growing up in India, he may well have developed an accent, different to his English parents who may have only experienced the dialect later in life as adults.
Ah, well, I will have to disagree with you on this one.
Sue
I speak from experience ;)
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If he was taught by a tutor to speak Indian Language/s as a child born/growing up in India, he may well have developed an accent, different to his English parents who may have only experienced the dialect later in life as adults.
Ah, well, I will have to disagree with you on this one.
Sue
I speak from experience ;)
So do I . Of a professional rather than personal kind.
Sue
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Robert age about 70
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Hi my2vjs
Welcome to this thread.
Were you attempting to post a photo of the chap Robert Stevens?
It didn't come through this time.
Can you attach the file to another post and try again ;D
Sue
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As I'm on hols away from the computer, my lovely right-handed assistant daughter is trying to put up a photo of Robert. Maybe soon :D
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;D ;D
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Can't seem to reduce photo size off the one I got sent,,do I delete for now and keep trying?? :(
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Photo Robert age about 70
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It seems that some research in India is needed.
???
Perhaps others have ideas where to begin, but is this site worth a search to start?
https://indiafamily.bl.uk/UI/Home.aspx
Sue
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I find it odd that a relatively prominent, affluent, family, particularly including photographers, would have such a blank photo album. One would expect photos of family, eg marriages, christenings, children, grandchildren, places visited on their travels and adventures. Photos with memorabilia like trophies, awards, group photos with club members, eg photographers club, rifle club, lodges, associations, regimental photos etc.
It may be worthwhile contacting members of the "Seale" family tree, which may help to confirm or eliminate this line. Walter and Kathleen Seale's death notices, burial records, headstone photos etc may include names of their children. There may have been articles in the Indian papers of family events, births, marriages, deaths.
Cheers :)
CoL
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Found- marriage of Colin T Seale.
Still lost is Robert. :o Only a couple of more days until I embrace the computer to further the investigation. Have been advised to read the Thackeray Indian Directory which is held at the University of WA. Will keep you informed. Many thanks Betty.
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http://wiki.fibis.org/index.php/Directories_online
It appears that some of THACKER's Directories are available for pdf download.
Sue
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Hi
Who did Colin marry ?
Muss
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Muss-just Colin m Lily Dorothy Jones 23.02.1925. Secunderabad - R/C
Issued to UKHC 1960
Sparret - Fingers crossed as it is a bit of a journey for me to the Uni.
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Wondering about this marriage?
Walter Earl SEALE and Lily Dorothy JONES
Event Date: 23 Feb 1925
Event Place: Secunderabad, Madras, India
Father's Name: Walter Earl Seale
Spouse's Father's Name: Walter Jones
Spouse's Mother's Name: Allice
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FGVN-PFH
Wondering if the above is Colin?
Should have info on marriage like bachelor/spinster, ages & signatures, witness etc (if you have access to view this image) http://www.rootschat.com/links/01jgu/
In regards to the accent, I notice that both Colin's parents Walter and Kathleen were also born in India, so Colin would be second generation born in India, which may explain his accent.
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The 1925 marriage at Secunderabad is transcribed under Lily Dorothy JONES to Walter Earle Seale and also transcribed under Lily Dorothy JONES to John SEALE.
Interesting that document image for the above is of a marriage extract issued in 1960 (ordered, paid for by someone? and sent to UK High Commission ). The extract shows the marriage details as Lily Dorothy JONES and Colin I? SEALE
In 1926 there is a birth at Secunderabad for Colin Bruce SEALE; Father SEALE; Mother -
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01jj8/
...wondering if this is the person who ordered and paid for the marriage extract in 1960
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Colin Seale, both parents Walter Seale and Kathleen Seale, were noted as witnesses on Sheila's 1915 marriage to Bertram YOUNG, and on Hilda's 1917 marriage to George GRANT.
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Betty, does this description match?
Army papers for Colin SEALE; Reg No: 37838; Royal Field Artillery
Height: 5feet 9inches
Complexion: Darkish
Eyes: Blue
Hair: Dark Brown
Religion: CofE
3 small scars back of R. hand and wrist. 2 small moles back of L. shoulder
NOK: Walter Earl Seale (father); Katie Seale (mother); Sheila and Hilda (sisters)
In 1907 Colin SEALE "Purchased discharge under article 1142 R.W." 26/7/05-13/2/07 1 yr 203 days. 19th Bty RFA
R.W.=Royal Warrant. Since the enlisted man signed up for a minimum term, if he wanted out, he would have sought formal permission and paid a sum calculated on what training he received and the length of service still outstanding to serve. I am assuming that he would also lose any entitlement to a pension.
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Wondering about this? http://www.rootschat.com/links/01jj9/
England & Wales Deaths 1837-2007
SEALE, Bruce Colin; Birth 1926; Death 2002; Southend on Sea, Essex, England
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QVZJ-Q5GQ
and this marriage (bride also born 1926) http://www.rootschat.com/links/01jja/
There are two SEALE births mother OSGATHORPE (1 son born 1948, 1 son born 1958)
https://www.freebmd.org.uk/search
Death: Phyllis SEALE https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QVCJ-NNBF
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Mmm! very interesting notes there. COL
So, possibly the son when marrying perhaps needed an extract of his birth.
Where was Colin SEALE, his father at that time?
Deceased? Or...?
Sue
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Wondering about this death? https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QVCL-M4X3
Name: Colin Seale
Death: 1967 Place: Camberwell, London, England
Age: 79: Birth Year (Estimated): 1888
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Gosh. Sue, we go home late tomorrow so either Wednesday or Thursday I'll go through my notes and update them. Then I'll compare it all. Betty.
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Hi
From Ancestry NSW police records
13 Jun 1923 Robert Stevens 25 years 5 feet 10half inches tall dark complexion usually dressed in Khaki trousers, military tunic and wide brimmed brown felt hat, may have one hand bandaged an Englishman identical with discharged prisoner Robert Stevens alias Robert Wilson
30 Jan 1924 page 62 born 1897 Robert Stevens alias Robert Wilson native place India
Muss
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This story may relate to that - Robert Stevens alias Franks Saunders alias Robert Wilson using a sulky without full permission ???.
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article213141507
Ros
adding : charged http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article113488204
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From NSW state archives http://indexes.records.nsw.gov.au/ gaol photographs
1923 Robert Stevens, born 1897, birthplace India, Bathurst Gaol, Photo not available, request a copy
1922 Robert Stevens, born 1897, birthplace India, Long Bay Gaol, Photo not available, Request a Copy
Ros
adding : possibly 1922 offence http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article15997070 ??? But this says sentenced to 12 months Bathurst Gaol http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article15999727
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Following up on Ros' sighting... and Muss' post too...
NSW Police Gazette 13 June 1923 page 313
Parkes
A warrant has been issued ……
Offender is 25 years of age, 5 feet 10 ½ inches high, dark complexion, brown hair and eyes, usually dressed in khaki trousers, military tunic and a wide-rimmed brown felt hat; may have one hand bandaged; an Englishman. Identical with discharged prisoner Robert Stevens alias Robert Wilson (vide Police Gazette 1922, page 347)
NSW Police Gazette 1922 (21 June) page 347 includes the following detail about Robert Stevens under “Native Place” INDIA.
JM
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And, an occupation :) Architect. and born 1897
NSW Police Gazette 30 Jan 1924 pg 62
If this is the elusive Robert Stevens, then perhaps he was NOT in New Zealand in 1922-1923, and instead was in Bathurst Goal. :)
JM
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From NSW state archives http://indexes.records.nsw.gov.au/ gaol photographs
1923 Robert Stevens, born 1897, birthplace India, Bathurst Gaol, Photo not available, request a copy
1922 Robert Stevens, born 1897, birthplace India, Long Bay Gaol, Photo not available, Request a Copy
Ros
adding : possibly 1922 offence http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article15997070 ??? But this says sentenced to 12 months Bathurst Gaol http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article15999727
Here are two different links to that NSW Archives Index of Gaol photographs.
https://www.records.nsw.gov.au/archives/collections-and-research/guides-and-indexes/gaol-inmates-prisoners-photos-index
and
http://indexes.records.nsw.gov.au/searchform.aspx?id=22
Long Bay photo is #18506
Bathurst photo is #2688.
The NSW Police Gazette 30 Jan 1924, page 62 notes the remission to the 12 month sentence at Bathurst. It noted he was released on License.
JM
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We'll, now. That's a turnup for the books! Great hunting, Muss.
Stuff is packed for travel home, but does that date coincide with the date finished work in NZ? Ta Betty
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Hi
I posted the information on Robert Stevens alias to Robert Wilson to show that there was person by the name of Robert Stevens born in India. Only person by that name in Australia born in the correct time frame we have found so far.
Did the work records have a letter head or just hand written ?
Muss
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JM I have the physical references for Robert working in NZ. Can't access the pix at moment. Will let you all know as soon as. :)
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Reference has a letterhead.
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I found this online at the beginning of the search however the references to him working in NZ caused me to dismiss it. I haven't followed the thread in detail.
Cando
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Hi
Another Robert Stevens born Bombay India from Trove Western Champion newspaper 28 Apr 1927 page 9
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Perhaps a transcription would either confirm or eliminate this man.
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article223231011
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article128684038
"Half Starved."
FORCED TO LIVE IN TENT.
"My baby died when it was six weks old," said a young woman in the Divorce Court on Friday, adding: "Its death was probably hastened because I was half starved for several months
before it was born." Ruth Stevens (formerly Claxton), of Harris street, Pyrmont, asked the
Judge in Divorce (Mr. Justice Owen) to dissolve her marriage with Robert Stevens, to whom she was married at Sydney in October, 1921. She now alleged desertion.
"We went to Parkes to live after the marriage," said Mrs. Stevens. "My life wasn't happy, and my husband spent his money drinking and gambling."
NO BEDDING.
"When we couldn't pay the rent," she continued "we had to go and live in a tent outside Parkes. I had little food; I was half-starved. There was no bedding nor the ordinary comforts of life. He took my wedding presents and pawned them and then spent the money gambling."
Mr. Justice Owen found the desertion proved, and granted Mrs. Stevens a decree nisi, and directed Stevens to pay the costs of suit.
MINISTER'S DAUGHTER.
The marriage certificate disclosed that the respondent was a native of Bombay, India; that his father was an architect; and that Mrs. Stevens was a native of Brighton, England; and
that her father was a minister. It further disclosed that, at the time of the marriage the husband was a captain.
And the marriage
17344/1921
STEVENS Robert
CLAXTON Ruth
District St Leonards
and infant death
5870/1923
STEVENS Gerald
Father Robert Mother Ruth
District Parks
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Sorry, duplicating some of Cando's post. NO red warning.
The wee baby was likely Gerald STEVENS, DD 7 April 1923, registered Parkes, son of Robert and Ruth. NSW BDM # 5870
:'( :'(
JM
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Here is divorce https://www.records.nsw.gov.au/item/381405
I could photograph this next time I am there (and it should contain wedding certificate).
Ros
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Colin-I do believe Colin was Colin, not Robert.
Robert-The one with the Crim record. I had seen photos of that Robert which was at the times of Dad being in NZ and definitely not dad.
Robert - Married. A possibility. Unless the Crim. Dad never gambled by the time he married Mum. Also, stopped drinking as per her request!
Robert - Dad. As mentioned, he was 56ish when I was born, so he had thin, greying hair.
The wedding photo is black and white. His hair is thicker and, you can form your own opinions, but he does seem older than 46, as he would have been then. I'll put it up in a day or two. Cheers betty
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Will try and put wedding photo up,really do agree that granddad looked older but hmm
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Ah, thank you mjvs. Didn't realise you had it. I'd say he definitely isn't the Crim Robert. x
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:-* :-*
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Captain R Stevens as passenger on the Malwa arriving May 1921 (info re ship and year on the photo #2688 where he gives his birth as India 22/10/1897 and his trade as architect)
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/15953013 SMH 17 May 1921.
JM
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I would hesitate to cross the chap who served time in NSW gaols off any list of possibles.
Ruth married Robert Stevens 18 October 1921 as per NSW BDM online.
......
MINISTER'S DAUGHTER.
The marriage certificate disclosed that the respondent was a native of Bombay, India; that his father was an architect; and that Mrs. Stevens was a native of Brighton, England; and
that her father was a minister. It further disclosed that, at the time of the marriage the husband was a captain.
And the marriage
17344/1921
STEVENS Robert
CLAXTON Ruth
District St Leonards
....
JM
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http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/15941331 19 May 1921
Captain R Stevens of Bombay, is on a visit to Sydney.
JM
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https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FGCC-62N
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FG88-3H1
Born 22 October 1897, Malabar, Bombay India, so likely the chap in NSW Gaols.
Robert Macmillan STEVENS
his parents as Charles Frederick Stevens and Mary Balmer
JM
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https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FGCC-62N
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FG88-3H1
Born 22 October 1897, Malabar, Bombay India, so likely the chap in NSW Gaols.
Robert Macmillan STEVENS
his parents as Charles Frederick Stevens and Mary Balmer
JM
NSW death:
28913/1955 STEVENS, Robert McMillan; Father-Charles 59 yrs; Mother-unknown; Newtown
Death notice (left hand page in this link) http://www.rootschat.com/links/01jjf/
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Thanks CupofLife, that eliminates him then from Betty's list.
He had DCM with Bar from his WWI service with Royal Welsh Fusiliers
JM
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G'day everyone. Back home. Updated notes. And sent messages to two of the Tree holders via "MyHeritage". I noticed their version of the tree is missing some data, but they may have heard of some stories regarding their grandparents/parents family. Hopefully, a few more than what I've heard. :-\
Thank you
Betty
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A memory recall. Driving in an area we seldom travel and I remembered a dispariging comment by Dad about a set of dark brown units which looked like the slum units in Johannesburg. So he travelled by that route at some stage. Ta Betty
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I notice Sheila SEALE and Bertram YOUNG had two sons
http://www.familytreebuilder.com/person-3000011_77713681_77713681/sheila-gertrude-harriete-young-born-seale
Walter Bertram YOUNG, born 26/5/1917 India; died dec 1991, age 74, Cambridgeshire, Huntingdonshire, Lincolnshire, Northamptonshire
Kenneth Arthur YOUNG, born 15/11/1919 Cawnpore, India; died: 15/5/1995, age 75, Kempton Park, Johannesburg, South Africa
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Thank you for that information. I've just had a response from Kenneth's son, and one of the first things I will ask is if they have any photos which will help to cement the relationship. He has mentioned that they moved to Johannesburg.
Fingers crossed we are getting closer to the end of the puzzle. Thank you x
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March 1 - I've been through the British India Office records and came up with births for Walter's siblings. In some cases also marriages and deaths. Mainly to find the names of their children.
I do have a query regarding their offspring. Where is the best place to source this information? It may also help to detail some of the marriage details which haven't been fully (or not) disclosed. Assuming they married of course.
I also did a brief search in the Thacker's directory 1895, on-line, and came across C D Seale, manager of Kangra Valley Slate. I'm wondering if it was Colin Dupre, brother to Walter. As I'd noted on the death certificate of Alfred Leonard, that he was also the manager of Kangra Valley Slate (Dharmsala).
Until I can source the offspring of the Seale siblings, Robert remains elusive. :(
Thanks, Betty
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March 1 - I've been through the British India Office records and came up with births for Walter's siblings. In some cases also marriages and deaths. Mainly to find the names of their children.
I do have a query regarding their offspring. Where is the best place to source this information? It may also help to detail some of the marriage details which haven't been fully (or not) disclosed. Assuming they married of course.
I also did a brief search in the Thacker's directory 1895, on-line, and came across C D Seale, manager of Kangra Valley Slate. I'm wondering if it was Colin Dupre, brother to Walter. As I'd noted on the death certificate of Alfred Leonard, that he was also the manager of Kangra Valley Slate (Dharmsala).
Until I can source the offspring of the Seale siblings, Robert remains elusive. :(
Thanks, Betty
Just confirming your line of thinking here...
You are seeking information on the siblings of Walter Earle SEALE, particularly their marriages and the births of children if any. So the cousins of Colin and Sheila SEALE.
Is that correct.
I am sorry I have no suggestions about how to locate such records, but it sounds as if you have made a connection with the British India Office. It would seem to be a good starting point.
Sue
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Yes, Sue. I was toying with the thought that maybe Walter and Kathleen took on one of nephews who may have been the elusive Robert. Betty
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Feeling more optimistic than I have been for ages, as one of the family members sent a photo of Sheila. The two daughters who have seen it say it looks like me. My husband says "a little". And hubby, one daughter and I say it looks like another daughter. I didn't disclose who the photo was of when asking for opinions. Sooooooo.
Now, again through British India Office records, I found a Robert Edward Seale who married Marjory Gertrude Wilkins 7 Jan 1920. Robert's dad listed on transcriptions and original documents as Robert Richardson Seale. I tried finding his background, without success. It would be interesting to see if R R is a relative of Walter's.
IF, Robert E is our mysterious Robert, then the question is raised, what happened between the marriage and 2 years later when he started work in NZ? Always questions. :)
Thank you, Betty
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According to marriage, Robert Edward Seale (born 1889) and Marjory Gertrude Wilkins (born 1902)
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FGJS-RFR
Wondering if this is Marjorie's death?
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QVCB-L52Q
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According to marriage, Robert Edward Seale (born 1889) and Marjory Gertrude Wilkins (born 1902)
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FGJS-RFR
Wondering if this is Marjorie's death?
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QVCB-L52Q
;D ;D
Looks very likely to me COL.
Well done!
From UK wills and probate calendar.
Marjorie SEALE of 164 Whytecliff Rd. Purley, Sy. died 23 Jan 1975. Administration Oxford 28th May. 982 pounds.
752817630H
She can be seen on the electoral rolls at this address.
Sue
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Some great ferreting COL and Sue. Your knowledge of where to look is what makes the search interesting. Betty
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Marjorie SEALE appears 3 times on the UK electoral rolls which are available for the London area and up to 1965 on subscription.
For your interest I will type the details in case those with her are ultimately of significance.
1962
MAJOR, Harold W.
SEALE, Marjorie
WOUTERSZ, Marjorie
Address- 60 Warrington Cres. Paddington North.
{the transcription says this was the Colonnade Hotel}
1964
MAJOR, Harold W.
SEALE, Marjorie
WOUTERSZ, Marjorie
WOUTERSZ, Noel
Address-164 Whytecliffe Rd., Surrey
1965
As above.
Sue
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Well.....
An ancestry tree author has this information on a public tree.
I think it may be worth further investigation
Summarised-
Winifred Alice ALMOND married in 1901 to William Henry WILKINS who died in 1905.
These were the parents of Marjorie WILKINS born 1902.
Mother Winifred then married to William Cecil KEYMER in 1906 in Bombay.
Mother Winifred in 1928 then married in Calcutta to Harold William MAJOR ( born 1890).
Winifred Alice MAJOR died in 1959.
{Rootschat believes Daughter Marjorie married Robert Edward SEALE.}
Then Marjorie SEALE ended up in England with Harold William MAJOR by 1962 per my reply #179 .
::) ::)
Sue
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Here you will find the interment for Marjorie SEAL, died 1975 by entering her name in the search box.
For a charge you may learn more.
https://www.deceasedonline.com/
Sue
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This is the nearest I can find for death of Noel WOUTERSZ
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QVZ8-6BJG
Sue
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I have found a couple of Robert Edward Seales. the first is brother to Walter, DOB 9 Sept 1842. There is a record of a marriage between 1876 and 1880 to Sabinan Madaru. (British India Office Ecclesiastical Returns)
The other (and more mysterious as far as finding background) is Robert Edward Seale. Born 1889.
He was listed as aged 31 at his time of marriage to Marjory Gertrude Wilkins 7 Jan 1920 in Cawnpore. Here it grows interesting as his father is listed as Robert Richardson Seale. I can not find the background to RR Seale. I've sighted both certificate and transcription. Thanks Betty
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I would be ordering the certificate of the death of Marjorie SEALE 1975 from GRO.
http://ukburials.co.uk/certs.htm
It may not, on the one hand, offer much, but then again it might hold the next pointer in the search.
;)
Sue
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Ok Sue. I'll give it a go and let you know how I went.
If at tbose times I sound dispirited, when we don't appear much closer to Robert, I'm at least providing some more information to the tree holder who is the grandson of Sheila's. And I'm learning about the life of a generation of folk in an area I knew nothing about. So all is not wasted. Cheers Betty
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Hi Betty,
Can you see what these two records show http://tinyurl.com/jhhws8u
Seale Robert Edward 1876 British India Office Marriages Unspecified
Seale Robert Edward 1878 British India Office Marriages American Mission School Chapel
Just wondering who holds the American Mission School Chapel records as some may have been missed eg any children born to this couple or their deaths.
Cheers :)
CoL
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The certificate has been ordered. This could take a few weeks, but it's another step in the right direction. :)
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Re Robert Edward Seale - Transcription - Marriage date - 1876-80 Spouses' name Sabinan Madaru. Pres: unspecified etc
Cert of marriage - 28th Oct 1878 to Sabinan Madaru - Dehra Dun. Witnesses were her dad and Col Seale
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He was back in NSW around August 1923. Through work references, I can pretty much track Robert Stevens until he died.
Between 1923 and the time of his 1941 marriage, where precisely was he over those years according to the information you have?
Sue
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This ancestry tree gives an unsubstantiated fact...
The birthdate for Marjorie WILKINS is 12th July 1902
http://person.ancestry.com/tree/57274130/person/30021920592/facts
This matches the birthdate given on the death index for Marjorie SEALE in Croydon, Surrey, UK.
Sue
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WORK REFS - All in the surname of STEVENS and unless [ ] it was in the name of Robert:
10-May-1923 - [Robert W] Mangahao Hydro Elect Power Stn-Shannon, NZ (period of 15 mths) Which would take him back to Feb 1922
25-Aug-1923 - "Forest House" Matcham (period of 3 mths) NEWS ITEM -Just researched where this place was. It's near Gosford NSW. George Heyne signed the ref. He was one of the first settlers in the area. Born in Madras, India 22 Sept 1880 of British parents! - OK- Were the Heynes known to the Seales?
13-Apr-1925 - "Wakefield" Scone NSW [Robert H] (nearly 2 yrs)
05-Nov-1925 - "Harrison & Co" Stone Merchants Gosford NSW (A bit of fudging dates here perhaps, as it says he was employed for 12mths. Unless Robert had 2 jobs.)
20-Nov-1926 - The Colonial Sugar Refining Co [No area given] (commenced 29-June-1926)
1934-39 - Irvingdale QLD (5 years according to a letter)
1939-40 - Pilerwa - cane cutting for 6 mths/6 wks/6 mths
1941 - Doolbi, Isis District, QLD. He worked on my grandfather's farm and that's where he met Mum. He then stayed in the district until we left for Beaudesert, QLD 1967
I hope this helps. Cheers. Betty
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Sands NSW Country Commercial Directory 1919
MATCHAM
Surnames: Banks, Brink, Caldwell, Dubois, Fernside, Flint, McNally, Marks, Michelson, Pickett, Pritchard, Sharp, Sharpe, Smith, Stockdale.
Occupations: Farmer, Orchardist, Teamster.
ADD
I also checked WAMBERAL in same directory. Longer list, sorry, but no mention of STEVENS or SEALE or HEYNE. :o
JM
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Another finding about Marjorie SEALE and Marjorie WOUTERSZ
1953
Ship Batory.
Departed 19th March from Southampton
Destination Bombay.
In Tourist Class
SEALE, Marjorie. Aged 50. Housewife.
Last address in England- 147 Chesterton Road, Ludbroke Grove W 10.
Intended permanent residency- England.
WOUTERSZ, Marjorie. Aged 24. Stenographer.
Last address in England- 147 Chesterton Road, Ludbroke Grove W 10.
Intended permanent residency- England
WOUTERSZ, Lynne. Aged 2 . Child.
Last address in England- 147 Chesterton Road, Ludbroke Grove W 10.
Intended permanent residency- England
Sue
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Hi Betty,
George Heyne was born 1889 Madras, so maybe they were friends who knew each other before. Wonder if the HEYNE line may have more information/photos etc.
http://naa.gov.au
HEYNE GEORGE ARNOLD FREDERICK : Service Number - N279538 : Date of birth - 22 Sep 1889 : Place of birth - MADRAS INDIA : Place of enlistment - PADDINGTON NSW : Next of Kin - HEYNE CORNELIA
https://recordsearch.naa.gov.au/SearchNRetrieve/Interface/ViewImage.aspx?B=6174057
Also (Not yet avail) : Item details for: C123, 10737 Heyne, George Arnold Frederick (British) (Box 333)
NSW death: 19701/1959 HEYNE, GEORGE ARNOLD F.; GEORGE; ANNE; MARRICKVILLE
http://ryersonindex.com
HEYNE, George Arnold Frederick, death 17July1959, late of Gosford, SMH18July1959
https://postimg.org/image/ks0dc1awz/
https://postimg.org/image/9tp3tumbn/
HEYNE, Cornelia, death 30Dec1976, late of Gosford, SMH31Dec1976
100271/1977 HEYNE, Cornelia Everharder J M ; Father-Onno Reint Hugo; Mother-Annette Elizabeth Joseph
100271/1977 HEYNE, Cornelia Everharder Joha ; Father-Onno Reint Hugo; Mother-Annette Elizabeth Joseph
NSW marriage
7971/1943 HEYNE, CORRIE ANNE and McFARLAND/MACFARLAND, JAMES ALEXANDER; SYDNEY
http://ryersonindex.com
McFARLAND Corrie Anne (Mrs Mac) see FORMSTON, Corrie Anne (Mrs Mac), late of Somersby; Central Coast Express Advocate 11JUL2012
https://www.billbottomley.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/formston.pdf
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https://www.flickr.com/photos_user.gne?path=gostalgia&nsid=&page=133&details=1
HEYNE couple at Holgate ;D 1921
JM
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Cornelia's death notice gives full names for children
Ros
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The little I've read marries in with a lot of your info. I must eat ;D this is so engrossing. I'm going to put my things in order, as it's becoming a mess. Somewhere at the back of my mind Heyme rings a bell. And it's not from the ref as I've barely scanned George name.
When I googled "Forest House" Matcham, that's when I got the background and connection. x x Betty
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George's mothers death
2723/1918 HEYNE, AVIS A W ; Father-CORY; Mother-ANN W; MACLEAN
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/15776414
HEYNE - At Yamba, Clarence River Heads, New South Wales, on February 27, 1918 Avice A. W. C. Heyne, widow of the late George Heyne of Madras and second daughter of the late Captain Cory Hawkes, 23rd Native lnfantry, Madras, in her 79th year Deeply regretted. Home and colonial papers please copy
-
Hi
From National Archives Passenger Arrivals 12 Mar 1921 from London to Sydney ship Mantua
Lt G.A.E HAYNE
Mrs Hayne and infant
Muss
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Hi Betty
I'm still chipping away at Marjorie Seale and the other Marjorie with her on the electoral roll in England
So I will give you what I have now.
In 1956 a chap named ?*** Seale returned by ship from London to Bombay. He was a doctor born 29/6/1921 and travelled with wife and family. Interestingly it was on the same ship Batory as Marjorie and Co. had been on in 1953 (see reply#193)
I'll PM his name
I do not have access to FindMyPast, but I think his birth is listed there with some details.
I felt it might be worth looking at.
I found an online chat item which is relevant to Marjorie ( probably nee WILKINS) and others. Have a look ::) :o
http://www.circushistory.org/Query/Query05a.htm
Sue
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Sue, that is amazing researching. After some time I finally located the article. With my luck she has probably passed away as that was 10 years ago, and she says she's 79. I'll give it a burl. Thank you. And the Trevor Seale link. Will also look into that, and find the family ties. I know I've come across it before. Many thanks, Betty.
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Oh, my latest. I'm now in regular touch with Sheila's grandson, and he says he has 4 Robert's in his tree. Knowing my background, he is going to suss them out and get back to me. Meantime, I'm still going to go down all avenues to be sure to be sure.
Is there someone knowledgeable enough to look up George Heyme's army records? What regiment was he in? Maybe even who else was in it? Ta Betty.
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After some time I finally located the article. With my luck she has probably passed away as that was 10 years ago, and she says she's 79. I'll give it a burl. Thank you.
I am really glad you are following it through. It may be a worthwhile lead.
Tip for the future ;D
Use your keyboard ;D
Ctrl F produces a search box to locate a phrase or a word in lengthy text
In this case type Marjorie Seale.
Sue
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George Heyne's army record https://recordsearch.naa.gov.au/SearchNRetrieve/Interface/ViewImage.aspx?B=6174057
There are 14 pages - press next to go to the next page
Ros
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Thank you Ros. What a gem you are.
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The records show that he served over many years in the second war. Betty
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I've been searching for Sabinan Madaru and Robert Edward Seale to see if they had children, but apart from the one transcription of the wedding, I can't find anything. Has anyone any ideas, please? Ta Betty
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Any luck with Thackers Indian Directory? http://wiki.fibis.org/index.php/Directories_online
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In 1956 a chap named ?*** Seale returned by ship from London to Bombay. He was a doctor born 29/6/1921 and travelled with wife and family. Interestingly it was on the same ship Batory as Marjorie and Co. had been on in 1953 (see reply#193)
I'll PM his name
I do not have access to FindMyPast, but I think his birth is listed there with some details
Sue
Hi Betty,
Were you able to see anything about this man on FindMyPast?
Sorry to be repeating myself ;D
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oops. Been sidetracked. 8)
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No luck with Find my past for Trevor Seale. I did see the shipping list and he was the dad of a son by the same name. Going back to India, with him and his wife, daughter and son. Both of whom were school age. I also saw he was born in 1920. Now for Thackers. I've been in touch with a rep from Trevillion and Clarke (under a different name now), and it's back to waiting. No word from anyone else.
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Mnmm..
I would love to know exactly what part the chap Charles FRANK played in the persuading of Marjorie SEALE to join Harmston's circus and exactly when it was.
::) ::)
Sue
ADDING
https://sites.google.com/site/harmstononthenet/The-Harmston-Circus
This site offers more information as well as lists of some performers.
S.
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C. Frank Contortionist!!! To a young, impressionable girl, strong powers of persuasion, perhaps?
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Ahh!
I had missed him on the list.
Daughter seemed to think FRANK was an animal trainer.
Anyhow, most likely the same man who, according to the story, influenced Marjorie SEALE to run away.
At the moment it all seems so tantalising and totally inconclusive re your Robert STEVENS, but....?
Sue
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Hi Betty,
Were you able to get any further information about Walter Earle Seale or his photographs?
Cheers :)
CoL
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Unfortunately no. Only -at this point in time - a photo of his daughter Sheila. Apparently I bear a slight resemblance. It's frustrating, eh? I've been looking at various sites for Robert Edward 1 and his wife and offspring but no joy. Even tried searching for Marjory Wilkins-Woutersz granddaughter, and no luck.
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Even tried searching for Marjory Wilkins-Woutersz granddaughter, and no luck.
Betty,
If you feel sufficiently convinced that the granddaughter is a person of interest and worth further investigation, in the search, you could have a read of this link.
Of course we do not know whether she returned to England to live or not.
https://www.bl.uk/collection-guides/uk-electoral-registers
Have a look then at some of the Rootschat boards in UK. Sometimes there are very kind people who will assist with visits and research in the Public Libraries there or at least offer some advice on such research.
Just a thought anyway.
Sue
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Thank you so much, Sue. Anything is worth a try.
And we've had a reply. Larry, now in Scotland, has replied. His family originated from Barbados. All is not lost - yet - as there is a Seale family reunion next week, which may throw up a lead. Cheers Betty
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Hi Betty,
Does that mean he is not connected to the India born Colin Seale, son of Walter Earle Seale?
If so, does Sheila's brother Colin still need to be tracked?
CoL
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CoL - It would appear they are of a different branch.
I thought Colin's line was pretty much accounted for, but I would certainly like a photo of him, for comparison's sake.
I also would have liked to have sourced the younger Robert Edward's army enlistment, as the signature just may have been a clincher. As having the marriage certificate, it's the only record of Robert's signature that I have.
I hope other requests for assistance don't lead you on such a merry chase as I seem to be doing. Many thanks,Betty.
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With your current info, do you think Colin remains on the table to possibly being Robert? Am I correct in assuming that we can't yet conclusively rule out Colin=Robert? Is Colin's description from his Army papers a match for your Robert?
Rootschatters love a merry chase ;) hopefully a team effort will crack this one ;D
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Sheila's grandson can track Colin. Apparently he went to England under a financial cloud. And signature was different. >:(
Your efforts are immensely appreciated.
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Sheila's grandson can track Colin. Apparently he went to England under a financial cloud. And signature was different. >:(
Your efforts are immensely appreciated.
What happened to this Colin? Did he have any children? When and where did he die?
Searching NSW bdm 1880-1900, I found no births for Robert, Sheila, Colin, or Hilda with parents Walter and Kathleen....no births in NSW to a Walter and Kathleen with a surname beginning with 'S' in that time frame.
What are the odds of finding a family with a connection to British India, in the right time frame, including Walter (with a surname S, who just happens to be a photographer), wife Kathleen (nee Johnston/e) with children Sheila, Colin, Hilda. Seems highly unusual to have all those people connected in the one household...the only thing missing is proving a connection to Robert.
Every avenue has lead to more questions and mysteries, like Robert Richardson Seale or birth for Robert Edward Seale 1889 who married in 1920. No leads yet either on the older Robert Edward Seale/ Sabinan (Madaru) line.
Holding on to a whole bunch of straws, is certainly a lesson in persistence and patience in an effort to leave no stone unturned ;)
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I've completely lost track I'm afraid :( Do we still want the divorce papers (and hopefully marriage cert) of the Robert STEVENS who divorced Ruth in 1926 in NSW?
I thought the Walter SEALE from India, photographer, was such a strong lead that I mentally crossed above off the list.
Yes it is a merry chase :)
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It has become tangled and merry chase indeed. ::) ::)
The line of thinking I am pursuing goes this way.
It is enormously speculative, but theories have to be explored before they can be discarded. ;D
In Jan 1920, Robert Edward SEALE married Marjorie Gertrude WILKINS. His age is 31 (born about 1889)
The groom’s father is listed as Robert Richardson SEALE
Was the word Richardson a misprint? Because Reply 183 this thread shows one Robert Edward SEALE (born 1842) was a brother of Walter Earle SEALE and he had married Sabinan MADARU in 1878 with Colonel SEALE as witness.
Robert Edward SEALE, the groom marrying WILKINS may or may not have seen service in ww1.
He may or may not have been raised by Walter Earle SEALE and travelled with Colin and tutor around the world.
He knew enough about Walter and Kathleen SEALE to have some details of Walter’s work and Kathleen’s correct maiden name.
By 1922 he was using the name Robert STEVENS in NZ and in 1923 in Gosford NSW where he worked with a possible associate from his homeland, HAYNE for a while. He learnt enough about Gosford to fabricate it as his birthplace.
Robert STEVENS moved about Australia until his marriage in 1941 QLD to a young woman, our OP’s mother.
Marjorie Gertrude WILKINS, the bride of the 1920 marriage, was born 1902. Her father died in 1905 and mother remarried twice afterwards, the last marriage being to Harold William MAJOR. The mother, Winifred (nee ALMOND died in 1959)
In 1962, 64,65 there are electoral roll sightings for Marjorie SEALE, with Harold W. MAJOR and another woman in Surrey, UK. We are fairly certain the younger woman was her daughter.
There are shipping passenger sightings for Marjorie and others back and forth between UK and India which give a birthdate for the daughter as 1929.
The younger woman mentioned in sightings, in 2007 wrote to an online circus forum about her mother , Marjorie SEALE, who had run away to join the circus when young. It is stated “She may have taken on another name because she ran away to join the circus”
http://www.circushistory.org/Query/Query05a.htm
Marjorie SEALE died in 1975 and is buried in England.
Overall, the line of thinking is there was a short marriage for Robert STEVENS where his very young wife left for a circus life and, in order to make a new start, Robert changed his name to STEVENS and left for NZ.
In case he had formed a bigamous marriage with OP’s mum, he composed a new life story for himself as cover.
Sue
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Thanks Sue :)
-
Only one of the possible story lines sad to say. ;D
Betty is waiting on the death certificate from GRO for Marjorie SEALE 1975 to see if there is anything there to help.
Sue
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The researcher we met up with in Sydney, has better eyes than mine, though I fear it won't be of much help. It is regarding Robert Edward Seale Senior - looking at the marriage certificate, (available on FindmyPast) the wife had just a single name: Saburan. Although not described in any way, she must have been a native girl; she gave her father's name as simply Madure.
I've also sent an email asking Sheila's grandson if he can possibly forward any information on Colin. Tomorrow morning I will further my search as per your tips. Many thanks, Betty
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Hi Betty,
Could you check this one out just to eliminate.
Sale, Robert death 1918, British India Office Wills & Probate, Karnal, Bombay
http://tinyurl.com/hp3czme
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These news items relate to the death of a woman named Kathleen JOHNSTON.
She died in North Sydney and was 32 years of age. It is hinted that the death was "unusual" but an inquest was not held as it appeared to be from natural causes.
It is not clear whether or not she was married.
I cannot see the death on the registration indexes.
Perhaps others will have luck, and I'll keep looking.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/229303533
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/14598592
Funeral to Rookwood
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/14598645
Sue
Aged 32, have we followed up further on Sue's sightings?
JM
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From Sands Directories, it seems to me that Paul Street did NOT go up to no. 29 ::) I have checked Sands 1900 and 1909 Suburban. By 1909 on the north side, it went up to # 12 and on the south side up to #13. In 1900 it went to #14 (north side) and only to #5 (a fuel depot) on the south side.
Perhaps it was named "Paul" after the PAUL family who were listed at 2 Paul St on the 1902 Electoral Roll.
Anyway, there's NO entry for Kathleen JOHNSTON (or variations) at Milson's Pt polling place in NSW ER 1902 NORTH SYDNEY. It was not compulsory to enrol, but 1902 was the first to list NSW females. :)
JM
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CoL -
Mrs Isabella Ada Sale was the widow and beneficiary.
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A couple of things about myself. I'm fair skinned, Ancestry DNA don't have any links to the sub-continent (all France/UK areas), I'm no singer and have not a flexible bone in my body. Which leads me to wonder if Robert Senior's wife was related, or did that Robert have a dalliance. Which we will never hear about.
I am hoping Sheila's grandson will be able to throw some light on the subject. Based on what he gives us, then we can further the research to confirm or otherwise. Many thanks, Betty
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I did photograph the Robert STEVENS and Ruth divorce just in case. Here is a snip of the marriage cert.
There is a letter from Robert if you would like to check the handwriting Betty ...
Ros
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Ros - Where do I find the letter? The snip is the same as you have put up. :) Betty
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Hi Betty,
These are not available online. Ros has been to SRO Kingswood and kindly photographed the file which had the letter with this Roberts handwriting. You will need to PM Ros your email and she will be able send you what she has copied.
CoL
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Whoohoo. thanks CoL :)
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Ros - sad to say, but that writing is nothing like my father's. Thank you so much for your troubles. Betty
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It was worth a try Betty :)
Ros
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It was Ros and it crosses off another possibility. Betty
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Yes,
All worth a try ;D
Maybe if the 1975 Marjorie SEALE death certificate from GRO offers anything the least bit encouraging, we might look at getting a copy/transcript of the 1920 Indian marriage between Marjorie Gertrude and Robert Edward SEALE.
I have no idea how one goes about it, but someone on Rootschat will know I'm sure.
Perhaps there will be a signature on it.
Sue
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Hi Betty,
What details are on this marriage image (camera icon)? http://www.rootschat.com/links/01jo4/
Any signatures? Who were the witnesses?
Above has an image for the same marriage https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FGJS-RFR
Name: Robert Edward Seale
Birth Date: 1889
Age: 31
Spouse's Name: Marjory Gertrude Wilkins
Spouse's Birth Date: 1902
Spouse's Age: 18
Event Date: 08 Jan 1920
Event Place: Cawnpore, Bengal, India
Father's Name: Robert Richardson Seale
Spouse's Father's Name: William Henry Wilkins
CoL
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Ah, CoL, I had not quite realised that the actual image was viewable for some people.
So in other words, there would be no point in requesting a image of the SEALE /WILKINS marriage because there is no more to see than the FindMyPast photo already available.
Is that right?
I was suggesting there might be Robert's signature on an image which would at least show the word ROBERT and an S. in handwriting.
Sue
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Hi Sue,
As far as I am aware that's all we can expect to see. Hopefully Betty will let us know exactly what is on the image (as I do not have access) and once Betty sites the 1975 death of Marjorie, we will know if it is a match and will then have to put on our thinking caps and work out how to proceed.
CoL
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I have PMed to Betty some quite contemporary and relevant information about the husband of Marjorie Seale's daughter.
I am happy to PM it to anyone who'd like to see it.
Sue
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Army Record posted on behalf of Betty - Betty will be along shortly :)
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Re: Robert Stevens photographer
« Reply #242 on: Today at 01:41 »
Quote
Hi Betty,
What details are on this marriage image (camera icon)? http://www.rootschat.com/links/01jo4/
Any signatures? Who were the witnesses? There are 2 entries for Marriages at St Patrick's Catholic Church. Both entries look to be written by the same person. And here is where I should be more diligent, because the witnesses were William Henry Wilkins (WH Wilkins), and - as we know - Robert Richardson Seale BUT the signature is R E Seale! So, yes, the priest had a wandering mind when he filled it in. I'm guessing.
NEWS- The local lady whom the Sydney researcher put me in touch with got back to me a few days ago (having dismissed my email, thinking it was sent in error), and so I put my little problem to her. She managed to find - ta dum - an army record for a Robert Henry Seale. 1905. Putting his age at 19. Which is (possibly) making my Robert 9 years older than originally presumed! But it does place him as being the oldest, which, based on a couple of stories he'd told us, fits. Also, one of the references was referring to Robert H. The only thing is the signature. Still, that can be altered over time, and with maturity. It gives his parents as Walter and Kate (Kathleen). This is spine tingling.
My contact (bless her) has said that one can contact FIBIS, who could help with birth/marriage/death certificates. I'm tempted to see if they can help with this fellow.
I've asked for assistance to put the army record up. :) Thanks, Ros.
Until I find his birth certificate, follow up army details (as I'm sure he was in WW1), and if there are any marriage details, I'm remaining sceptical.
I hope this makes for a happier weekend for you dear detectives, who have been so frustrated over these past days. :) :) Cheers, Betty
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Signature posted on behalf of Betty
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Thanks Ros. This was in 1941 and remained the same till the end.
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Hi Betty,
If Robert's Army record age is 19 in 1905, he was born 1886. Sheila was born 05 Jul 1886, https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FG7X-MB5
Unless they are twins? something does not add up.
Can you please compare the Army Service numbers of Colin and Robert. Dates of enlistment, description etc.
CoL
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Thanks CoL. Good spotting. I only have 1st and last pages of Robert records and have emailed the local lady for the full one. Number 37837
Colin's record has duplicate written in red, and the number is 37838
Same enlistment date 26 July 1905
Both enlisted in Allahabad
Robert - "near the town of" Raniket
Colin - Dehra Dun
Robert's age given as 19yrs 1 month.
Colin's age given as 18yrs 1 month
For Colin I do not have the page regarding parents.
Is there anything else you can think of? Ta Betty
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I think the signatures have some factors in common.
Although not every corresponding letter is identical, there is a certain overall style which both have.
Some individual letters as I see it, are very much alike- the big bellied R and the stroke of the t which misses.
As a left handed person, myself, I wonder if the writer was left handed.
It was highly desirable in the well-educated script, that here be a forward slant to the writing. Left handers find this difficult and I do note the desired slant is absent in both signatures.
ADDING- Can you comment Betty?
As to the ages of the siblings and Robert's place in the time-line of them-
At this stage the evidence is showing he is a nephew, not a child of Walter Earle SEALE.
Birth of Robert Edward SEALE (proposed as father to Robert who married WILKINS).
from India Births and Baptisms
Name-Robert Edward Seale
Christening on- 18 Jan 1843
At Nusseerabad, Bengal, India
Birth Date 09 Sep 1842
Father's Name- Robert Henry Seale
Mother's Name- Sarah Emma
This link posted earlier by CoL gives the same parents for Walter Earle SEALE
https://www.myheritage.com/names/walter_seale
With that in mind, it would be easy to be confused or to make small fudges of the truth ::)
Sue
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I note that on Roberts Army record birth was 1886 (Sheila's year of birth)
Robert Stevens (in Australia) used 1895 which was Hilda's year of birth (from marriage). Did we find a birth/baptism for Hilda?
We have Sheila 1886 date of birth/baptism and Hilda 1895 (from marriage and death) are probably correct as witnesses on both marriages were Walter, Kathleen, Colin
Robert and Colin had the same enlistment date 26 July 1905.
Colin bought his discharge, and left under some sort of cloud.
Also Walter, Kathleen, Sheila or Hilda were not witnesses on Robert or Colins marriages.
I am leaning toward Colin=Robert
Adding: Betty what age did your dad look when he died?
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Did we find a birth/baptism for Hilda?
I do not recall seeing such.
Only a year given by implication (#93 muss) in death notice
"aged 25 years" 1920
Sue
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Thanks Sue :) you have raised some good points for Betty to ponder and provide some feedback.
For me, the fact that Walter, Kate (Kathleen), Sheila, Hilda, appear on Army papers, No Robert, only Walter, Kathleen, Colin are witnesses on both Sheila and Hilda's marriage.
If I am correct Robert (Stevens in Australia) knew the full name of the maternal line, Kathleen Anne Johnston (not the maternal side of possible cousin Robert Seale), this makes me inclined to think it has to be a member of the family and not a cousin, so for me, I see Colin as the main point of focus.
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I think the light bulb has just been turned on, thanks CoL.
Regarding the signatures. Both my daughter (who will comment soon) and I see strong similarities. Dad/Robert always wrote in the upright style - and I'm wondering if it is because he also learnt to write the native language, which is very vertical. Colin Seale's signature is very close to his style. And he was right handed :)
No birth records for Hilda Seale. I see she died of Septicism. I'm going to be dying of scepticism at this rate!
I'm meeting with the local lady at the Historical Society on Friday afternoon. Her expertise is in India/Military. From what I can gather her husband lived in the same street (1940's) as is on Robert's Military form. How spooky
Which brings me to the parents' names on the form, which is written in bolder ink. Unfortunately, I can't do any more comparisons on them until Friday afternoon (Perth time).
Shouldn't we be double-checking on Colin's movements? I'm sure there is a Colin who went to England. It's just I don't want to get too excited yet. :)
I just can't see Robert Stevens being related to Robert Edward who married Saburan, assuming she was black haired and olive compexion, as Dad/Robert was white where his shorts went and none of us (4 daughters and I as I'm an only child) have any "colouring" to our complexions.
Anything else? The ideas and questions you come up with are very helpful. Who needs sleep when there's so much excitement in one's life :) :)
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Hi Betty,
Can you see this image (camera icon)? Can we rule this out?
http://tinyurl.com/h4svsle
Colin Seale
United Kingdom, Chelsea Pensioners' Service Records
Name: Colin Seale
Event Type: Pension
Event Year Range: 1760-1913
Event Place: United Kingdom
Birthplace India
Birth Year (Estimated): 1887
CoL
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I thought I remembered something of this nature. Do we ignore him based on a different birth year? Betty
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...Do we ignore him based on a different birth year ;D ;D ;D so far none of Robert dates are set in concrete ;D
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Robert Stevens 6 months before he died - posted on behalf of Betty
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The photo, in my opinion suggests an age late 80's possibly early 90's which still leaves a mystery if it is Colin born 1889
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UK deaths.
Deaths Dec 1967
SEALE Colin
Aged 79
At CAMBERWELL
5A/572
There are 3 electoral roll entries in the London area in the name.
1954 SEALE Colin.
159 Tulse Hill Lambeth, Lambeth.
There are 21 others at 159 Tulse Hill.
All are male. None shares the surname SEALE
1955
Same address
A number of others also. One Female. No others named SEALE.
1964
Roupell Crt Norwood Lambeth
No others of the surname.
He is buried at Southwark, but I cannot see details without purchasing credits.
https://www.deceasedonline.com/servlet/GSDOSearch
Sue
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Robert Seale signature on army record - posted on behalf of Betty
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Hi
Did Walter Seale have a will ?
Muss
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Hi
Robert could be a little older in the photo. My mum passed away last year ( I am dealing with probate, and I am only child too) she was 98 and did not look her age.
Muss
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Yes would have to agree with the signature looking promising, I have looked at that many "Robert Stevens" signatures and not one came even close to a resemblance. The writing and letter style does have a good closeness in style.
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I'll do a search for the will tomorrow, Muss.
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I've not had much luck today, and it looks like I'll have to try and see if I can be lucky Tuesday with a helper at the local Historical Society, as I try and access FIBIS.
I tried searching for what Article 1142 means in army terms. No joy.
I couldn't find any sign of a will for Walter Earle Seale.
I also try FindMyPast for migration details for Colin. I did come up with a Mr WC Seale in 1911 who sailed on the Orsova from London to Sydney. He did not show up on any electoral rolls or census rolls after that. I looked under Walter/Colin and variations.
I also tried looking for WW1 records for Colin/Robert (with and without Henry). Nada
So, I'm sorry I can't be the bearer of good news. I need to change my thinking cap, I think. Betty
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This may help: from my understanding, a soldier applied to purchase their discharge and upon approval, the Army calculated the payment due depending on training provided and outstanding time not served.
http://armyservicenumbers.blogspot.com.au/2009/07/army-service-numbers-1881-1918-index.html
Article 1142 dealt with the purchase of discharges (£10 for a recruit and £18 after a man was trained). Paragraph (iii) dealt with those men with less than 12 years' service and stated that "... provided that he satisfies the general officer commanding of the existence of urgent reasons for his being discharged for the purpose of supporting his parents, or for any other such sufficient special cause – free".
http://regimentalrogue.com/rcr_great_war_soldiers/rcr_soldier_carpenter_19249.html
Discharged from the British Army "at his own request on payment of £25.0.0 under Article 1142 Pay Warrant 1906" on 19 Oct 1907. Carpenter's service was 7 years, 199 days Army and 225 days Reserves for a total service of 8 years 59 days of which 2 years 315 days was spent abroad (South Africa).
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War medals - posted on behalf of Betty
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Re Robert Henry Seale - War Medals. I've just come across a Robert Henry Seale, born in England 23 Dec 1896, died 1977. Sharpening the spade for more digging!! Betty :)
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Re Robert Henry Seale - War Medals. I've just come across a Robert Henry Seale, born in England 23 Dec 1896, died 1977. Sharpening the spade for more digging!! Betty :)
SEALE, Robert Henry
Mother maiden name ALLEN
1897
March quarter
ISLINGTON Volume 01B Page 299
1911
SEALE
William. Aged 37. Motor Cab driver.
Emily . Aged 36
William. Aged 15, Printers...?
Robert. Aged 14. Errand Boy . Imitation jewellery.
Florrie. Aged 10. School
Edith. Aged 7. School
Emily. Aged 2.-
All born Islington. Address 21 Stonefield St., Islington.
Sue
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The only news for today is that Sheila's grandson ran into a slight problem but will go digging into the family tree later in the week. I mentioned the possibility of Colin and Robert being one and the same, and for whatever reason, he is also leaning to that conclusion. Hopefully by Saturday a brick or two will come loose. Cheers Betty
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A resource for Indian information (mentioned on Beginner's Board) is Homeward Mail a British publication with news of British people (from India, China, and the East). It is available on Find My Past and also https://www.britishnewspaperarchive.co.uk/ (3 free searches before it costs money).
I did find an interesting snippet about the brothers Walter, Arthur and Alfred Seale being in trouble 30th July 1872 in High Court of Allahabad - allegedly trashed a house because of being denied access to a girlfriend.
I haven't found anything useful yet :( (2 more free searches left)
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Ooo interesting! :o A coordinated search needed. How did you target their name Ros? Ctrl F?
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I did a search for "walter seale" in Homeward Mail and it is on page 6,7 for 30th July 1872.
I thought I downloaded the article to send to you Betty ... but not finding it where I thought it would be ... still looking
Ros
adding : it seems to have downloaded p774 for me ???
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They were found not guilty (9 Sept 1872 page 8 )
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I use this "way in" and tick "exact search" box
http://www.britishnewspaperarchive.co.uk/search/advanced
Use the filters to the left then to hone in where you want.
You can usually (not always) read enough of the relevant article to decide whether is worth paying for or not ::)
Sue
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Dear all. I hope your grey cells have had a rest these past couple of days. I've still been trying different ways to search the various members of the family. This afternoon, WA time, I head to the local Genealogy Soc and meet up with the "Indian connection" guru. :) I'll let you know how we went, hopefully, before your bedtimes. Cheers, Betty :) :)
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Just re-visiting the marriage of Hilda Grant and the witness was written up as Colin T Seale. Missed the T bit. Another one to search for!!! Betty
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Just re-visiting the marriage of Hilda Grant and the witness was written up as Colin T Seale. Missed the T bit. Another one to search for!!! Betty
Hi Betty,
Are you sure it is not "Colin I. Seale" as in Colin Ian Seale (T and I can be mistaken)
If possible can you upload witness name.
CoL
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uploading image sent.
Betty,
Looks like "I" as in "Ian" to me.
Adding: possibly "J" or "T" but since we have a Colin Ian Seale, I think that "I" is more likely.
CoL
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The writing for the names Kathleen and Colin are in the same hand.
Walter's is different.
I am saying.
Most unlikely initial T
Unlikely J
Most likely I
Might ask JM to have a look as past experience tells me she has a very good eye for these things ;D
It would be useful to see if the same handwriting appears anywhere else on the document in case this particular letter appears again in it.
It may be identifiable by context elsewhere.
Sue
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Hi,
Ummm.... the capital "S" is NOT formed same as the capital "S" for Walter Earle SEARLE, I am thinking about that capital "I". At first sighting it seemed to be to be "I" (as in Igloo), but with the "S" that follows it, ummm..... perhaps it is a poor attempt to 'print' a "J" (as in Juliet).
It doesn't have 'enough' to be a "T" (as in Tango) .... and the 'ink' seems to be same thickness throughout the stroke, so I am yet to figure out the up stroke or down stroke etc.
Love the flourish for Walter ;D but ....
There's THREE witnesses .... rather than the usual two .... so I ponder .... why 3 signatures to witness a marriage .... was one of those witnesses known to be lawfully incompetent or did that nation's marriage laws require three (gender bias etc comes to mind) .... the form seems to have enough space for three signatures...
So I am thinking that my first sighting would be more likely instead of my over speculating, so I am saying "possibly" Colin I SEALE.
JM
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Hi Betty,
Can you recheck Colins signature and compare if handwriting is upright like Roberts Army record.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01jpz/
Seale, Colin; 1905 British Army Service Records; Dehra Dun, India (for image click camera icon)
CoL
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G'day, I'm back.
Firstly, I've heard from Sheila's grandson, and he sent through 2 photos of his dad, the second being when he was 70. STRONG resemblance. Same hairline, chin and facial features. The chin even followed through to Sheila. I'd say that's one brick down.
I met with the researcher put on to me by the researcher from Sydney, and she says that Colin and Robert are 2 separate folk as the army descriptions differ slightly. Colin was dark with blue eyes, and Robert was fair with grey eyes and the height was slightly different. As for their ages, that information was fudged by both of them.
A puzzle - I have a copy of a marriage certificate saying Colin (I) Seale married a Lily Dorothy Jones. Living in Secunderbad. But I want to check this out further as the date on the bottom of the form is 18 August 1960. The 19 being pre-printed. hmm Was it requested and if so, by whom? Do I have a half-sister/brother out there?? A search to go on (for me).
There were no other traces for Robert or Colin, but then we were finding BMD details for other members of the family. Cheers Betty
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Hi
Another straw
When did your father retire ? reason
marriage to your mother in 1942 age 46 = born c 1896
marriage of colin copy of certificate issued 1960 - 65 = c 1895
maybe needed for pension reasons
Muss
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Firstly, I've heard from Sheila's grandson, and he sent through 2 photos of his dad, the second being when he was 70. STRONG resemblance. Same hairline, chin and facial features. The chin even followed through to Sheila. I'd say that's one brick down.
Cheers Betty
Betty, do you mind just clarifying this for me. ???
Colin's sister Sheila had a son.
You are in contact with the son of this man (so the grandson of Sheila)
You have received a photo of Sheila's son from Sheila's grandson.
There is a strong resemblance to someone.
Who?
Sue
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In Childers he gained the nickname of Ironbark Stevens. He had a very strong fortitude (?). He worked at the hospital until Oct 1967 then went on to work in Beaudesert for another 3 years! BUT something was going on because when I was 9 or 10 i was sent to stay with an aunty for 2 weeks. A first and last. I thought it had something to do with trying to adopt a child. This would mean that he would have had to have told Mum something of his background. Why wasn't I told? LOL
Being with the researcher yesterday gave me an insight into what life was like back then. Cheers Betty
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Betty,
Could you reply to my query #288 above
Sue
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Thanks Sue. Missed it on the phone. Robert and Ken at 70. BB
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I see ;D
Did Robert draw the old age pension in retirement (per Muss' post #287)?
If so, what year do you think that was.
In WA or QLD?
Sue
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Can you recheck Colins signature and compare if handwriting is upright like Roberts Army record. I revisited the page and it looks like the same person wrote the certificate, with a variation on the "S" in Walter's signature. Emailing it to Ros to put up. :) Betty
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Did Robert draw the old age pension in retirement (per Muss' post #287)?
If so, what year do you think that was. In WA or QLD? Sue
I'd say he may have drawn the pension in 1970, but mum did start working at that time, and so I'm not sure if it was in lieu of the pension or to supplement it. The joy of being wrapped up in one's own world!! He would have definitely been on a pension once in WA, as he never worked once here from about February 1973 to his death.
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so much for lateral thinking!! I was thinking that I may need to order the film.
Lily Dorothy Jones
India Marriages, 1792-1948
marriage:
23 February 1925
Secunderabad, Madras, India
father: Walter Jones
mother: Allice
spouse: Walter Earl Seale
other: Walter Earl Seale
Name Walter Earl Seale
Spouse's Name Lily Dorothy Jones
Event Date 23 Feb 1925
Event Place Secunderabad, Madras, India
Father's Name Walter Earl Seale
Spouse's Father's Name Walter Jones
Spouse's Mother's Name Allice
Well, if it's Colin's marriage, that definitely rules out Robert as being Colin!!! I can see that he had been in Wakefield, Scone from Sep 1923 - April 1925 and then with Harrison and Co in Gosford April to Nov 1925.
I know Colin's army signature looks so similar to Dad's but could those boys have switched identities when enlisting? What mischief were they up to? Betty
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Hi Betty,
Could I ask you to look again at Page 16 of this thread and go to Reply#136.
It highlights a birth and there is a link to FindMyPast.
Have you already viewed the details there?
Sue
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Spot on! Thank you for having such a wonderful memory, Sue. :)
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Hi Betty,
Which of the descriptions in Army records best fits your dad? Colin or Robert?
Also wondering about this? dated 1917 but Colin bought his discharge 1907?
Pg 2768
The KING has approved the appointment of the undermentioned Officers to the Infantry Branch of the Indian Army Reserve of Officers: —
To be Second Lieutenants.
INFANTRY BRANCH....
continued on pg Pg 2769 https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/29993/page/2769/data.pdf
Colin Ian Seale. Dated 11th January, 1917.
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For Betty
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Right,
Colin I SEALE ....
as it is not a "J" as in the month of June and it is not a "T" as in the bride's name of Thelma.
And the entire page is in the one hand.
JM
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Uploading a clearer image of that part. Yes, quite clearly Colin I. Seale
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Hi Betty,
Can you recheck Colins signature and compare if handwriting is upright like Roberts Army record.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01jpz/
Seale, Colin; 1905 British Army Service Records; Dehra Dun, India (for image click camera icon)
CoL
Can we see Colin's signature on this Army record please? Is it upright like Robert's?
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I'll send through Robert and Colin's army signatures through the wonderful Ros :)
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Spot on! Thank you for having such a wonderful memory, Sue. :)
Not really, Betty. :P
Anyhow, on the link which is there in blue,
Here it is again-
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01jj8/
When you click the camera, who are the parents please, if you can see. ;D
Sue
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Colin's signature. See reply #312
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First name(s) Colin Bruce
Last name Seale
Birth year 1926
Birth date 1926
Baptism year 1926
Baptism date 1926
Place Secunderabad
Presidency Madras
Father's first name(s) -
Father's last name Seale
Mother's first name(s) -
Mother's last name -
Archive reference N-2-139
Folio 208
Sadly no picture for Colin Bruce Seale. Only the transcription, Sue
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Thanks for looking.
Sue
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Robert's signature. See reply #312
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Robert Stevens signature in later years
See reply #312
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Sorry I am on iPad and am not as familiar with cropping and turning photos - I'm much better on my pc. Perhaps someone can organise the signatures alongside each other so easier to compare?
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Interesting, Colin's signature also upright
Adding: The "Seale" similar on Henry and Colin
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The “Robert Henry Seale” is likely written by a right handed person.
Colin Seale is likely written by a left handed person
Tantalisingly, ‘Colin’ is ‘spread out’ and of such ‘scribble’ that any scribe seeking to ‘alter’ it to ‘Robert’ (or John !) and could do so without much ‘practice’ …. Seale (to Stevens) would take more practice, but could be achieved.
JM
attach a new snip.
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Much better - thanks JM
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Hi Betty,
Which of the descriptions in Army records best fits your dad? Colin or Robert?
Also wondering about this? dated 1917 but Colin bought his discharge 1907?
Pg 2768
The KING has approved the appointment of the undermentioned Officers to the Infantry Branch of the Indian Army Reserve of Officers: —
To be Second Lieutenants.
INFANTRY BRANCH....
continued on pg Pg 2769 https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/29993/page/2769/data.pdf
Colin Ian Seale. Dated 11th January, 1917.
While we ponder...... I am thinking....
Too many Colin SEALEs ::) ???
I would still like to know more about the death in England of Colin SEALE in 1967.
Page 30 this thread. Reply#262.
Age is almost correct.
Sue
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Agree about their being too many Colins. lol
I'm starting to lean toward the Robert being my dad. He was right handed. And although described as fair, if he was actually a year or so younger, then his hair would darken a little more in time. And as i may have mentioned, he worked outdoors from the 1920s pretty much, and no thought of sunscreen, a hanky for a hat at times, so his skin tanned up quite heavily.
We have company, but before I go, I've also been wondering if Kathleen was in England when Robert was born. It's a faint hope, though Ainslie did say that a lot of records haven't been transcribed/digitalised.
I have even searched for immigration to Australia by Robert and Colin.
Someone better remove that brickie who keeps picking up the bricks we knock down!!
Cheers, Betty
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Re the 1967 death for a chap Colin SEALE .... would it be sensible to start a quick thread on the London board and ask for a newspaper lookup for Camberwell deaths by that name?
??? ??? Do they do lookups on the London board?
I tried looking up some of the UK newspapers via a library readers card e-resources thingy but I did not find any obituary or death/funeral notice or In Memoriam notice for Colin SEALE in 1967-68.
I am sure it will be sensible to duplicate the freebmd info here, to save looking back through this extremely long thread.
Deaths (registered in the quarter ending 31st) Dec 1967
SEALE Colin aged 79
CAMBERWELL
Reference 5A 572
https://www.freebmd.org.uk
JM
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Also may be useful to post on UK board for Rootschatters to manually lookup India Office Records index for Wills and Administration etc. as Betty's dad was entitled to some sort of inheritance. A Will for Walter Earle Seale or Kathleen Anne Seale, should name all their children, beneficiaries, executors etc.
http://www.bl.uk/reshelp/findhelpregion/asia/india/indiaofficerecordsfamilyhistory/willsandadministrations/willsadmin.html
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Hi Betty,
Is Sheila's grandson in the UK? Has he been to the India Office Records Archives? Would he be keen to do some research to solve this puzzle?
Since Sheila's side have done some family research, what is the last confirmed evidence of Colin?
Do they believe Colin had children? Where do they believe Colin died?
Do they have any info on any sort of inheritance/will etc. that may name offspring?
Do they have any info on a possible Robert linked to them that fits in with your dads time frame?
CoL
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No. No. No lol He's just north of Jo'berg. He doesn't have any info on Colin or Robert that we don't have. Sadly. I'll make a nuisance of myself and give the issue a nudge. Betty
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No. No. No lol He's just north of Jo'berg. He doesn't have any info on Colin or Robert that we don't have. Sadly. I'll make a nuisance of myself and give the issue a nudge. Betty
Thanks, was hoping he had moved to UK....while you're at it, may as well make a nuisance of yourself on Rootschat London board ;D ...need all the help we can get with this brain teaser ;D
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Done, CoL. Also posed some questions to the grandson. :) Betty
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Have sent an email to a researcher from FIBIS. I'll advise the board if she will join in the chase - or not. :)
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Good morning everyone. I've heard from the FIBIS researcher. She's not in the best of health and has given me the name of another person. I'll keep you informed whether she'll help or not. Also there is no word from the Londoners or the grandson. Have a cuppa while we wait. Cheers Betty
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A point of interest...Colin's file notes the language "Urdu" (an Indian language)
From FIBIS http://www.rootschat.com/links/01jrd/
Military records - Indian Army Regiments: Indian Army Reserve of Officers (I.A.R.O.)
Serial Number: 2499
Date of Rank & Appointment: 10 January 1917
Surname: SEALE
First Names: Colin Ian
British Regiment with which trained : Officers Training School, Ambala
Previous Service : 2 years, Royal Field Artillery Gunner. Educated in India. Engineer, Jhansi *From Army records previous service was 1905-1907 (when Colin bought his discharge) so looks like Colin rejoined as I.A.R.O.
Languages: Urdu
Also noting that Colin Ian SEALE and George Arnold Frederick HEYNE were both I.A.R.O. (Indian Army Reserve Officers)
George Arnold Frederick HEYNE was born 22 Sep 1880 https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FGHC-YJY but fudged date on Australian Army records to 22/9/1889
Colin SEALE was born 2/9/1889
Pondering if George Arnold Frederick HEYNE was the "tutor" as he was in reality 9 years older? Or maybe they were mates as he may have fudged his Indian records as well to 1889.
https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/31013/page/13509/data.pdf
George Arnold Frederick Heyne. 13th Apr. 1918.
https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/29993/page/2769/data.pdf
Colin Ian Seale. Dated 11th January, 1917.
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Interesting results there. Last night I too went in search of Mr Heyme to see if he was in the same regiment with no luck. And this is where your knowledge and skills are valued. I'm being a bit wary of reading anything more into the connection other than being army mates. At this point. I'm certainly not going to be shocked by the outcome of this searching as Robert Seale is a different person to my way of thinking. :) Gosh. This is fun, eh what? :) Betty
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Sparrett - there's still no mail from GRO. Hopefully in the next few days.
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Is there anything in particular I can research at our Uni which may help. I'm looking to go in next week. In the meantime, based on your suggestions, I'll see if they have the relevant material. Betty
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Hi Betty,
Have you read the full ww2 file for George HEYNE digitised on the website National Archives Australia?
If so, you will have seen a letter contained there from him. It is about being sent the wrong discharge papers after his ww2 service ??? NOW looking at the handwriting and signature on that letter, do they match with the document of employment reference for Robert STEVENS which you describe on Pg 22 Reply#191 this thread?
I find it interesting that evidence strongly suggests that Robert and George HEYNE were associates from Army days (so knew one another's true names!) and he was willing to write a reference for Robert in a false surname. It makes me think George knew the reason behind the "new identity"
Sue
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What do you make of this? http://www.rootschat.com/links/01jrk/
Title: File Pol 7434/48 - Enquiry concerning the whereabouts of Colin Seale
Collection Area: India Office Records and Private Papers
Reference: IOR/L/PJ/7/13782
Creation Date: Apr 1948-Nov 1948
Extent and Access:
Extent: 1 file
CoL
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What do you make of this? http://www.rootschat.com/links/01jrk/
Title: File Pol 7434/48 - Enquiry concerning the whereabouts of Colin Seale
Collection Area: India Office Records and Private Papers
Reference: IOR/L/PJ/7/13782
Creation Date: Apr 1948-Nov 1948
Extent and Access:
Extent: 1 file
CoL
I would be ordering from GRO (sorry... more money outward!!) the death certificate of the man Colin SEALE
UK deaths.
Deaths Dec 1967
SEALE Colin
Aged 79
At CAMBERWELL
5A/572
There are 3 electoral roll entries in the London area in the name.
1954 SEALE Colin.
159 Tulse Hill Lambeth, Lambeth.
There are 21 others at 159 Tulse Hill.
All are male. None shares the surname SEALE
1955
Same address
A number of others also. One Female. No others named SEALE.
1964
Roupell Crt Norwood Lambeth
No others of the surname.
He is buried at Southwark, but I cannot see details without purchasing credits.
https://www.deceasedonline.com/servlet/GSDOSearch
Sue
And also taking any steps to see further information on "the inquiry regarding the whereabouts of Colin SEALE" in 1948.
Sue
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Sparret - I'll see if I can access the information and get back to you shortly.
CoL - Nothing ventured. Nothing gained. I've gone and put a request on the London Board. Betty
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Colin Seale died in the Dulwich Hospital on 31 Oct 1967.
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I've asked Ros to put up the signatures of George Heyne. For once we have a match! A perfect match, actually. :) Betty
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How exciting Betty :). But photo hasn't arrived ... ?
Ros
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George Heyne's signature
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Yes, no doubt at all ;D
So the name Robert STEVENS, who the workplace reference was for, is in the handwriting of George HEYNE. Correct?
George HEYNE obviously knew perfectly well it was a false name and probably why too.
It is not illegal to use a false name in Australia as long as it is not done with fraudulent intent, so no laws were broken in this act, but intriguing nonetheless ???
Sue
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At nsw state records there is returned soldier settlement file for George Arnold Frederick HEYNE for district Gosford
http://indexes.records.nsw.gov.au/
There is an interesting case for George and Cornelia HEYNE about a cow trespassing on their property and charging agistment fees from neighbour in 1927
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article161284773
There are several poems by George HEYNE published in 1930's in Gosford and Wong district times
Ros
Adding Cornelia HEYNE of Gosford asking about her kettle in 1963 http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article46470121
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There are several poems by George HEYNE published in 1930's in Gosford and Wong district times
Ros
Somehow I am not surprised about the poetry.
The one short letter from him in the digitised ww2 file shows an elegant hand in the writing and an educated turn of phrase with careful punctuation ::)
Sue
ADDING
A few paragraphs about George HEYNE written by his son
http://www.matchamhall.org/local-history/written-histories/the-legacy/the-legacy-introduction
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There is a probate file for George Arnold Heyne who died in 1959
https://www.records.nsw.gov.au/item/1001946
Ros
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George HEYNE's death notice
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Think I posted this before but ... Cornelia HEYNE death notice
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Well, what an exciting morning.
Firstly, I've heard from the George Heyne connection. And she will be sharing the tree so that I can have a look-see. She is related through Avice's line.
FIBIS - has now been passed to someone in Australia. Yet to hear from her.
www.deceasedonline.com is where I obtained Colin's Death details. It gives the grave number and the fact he died in the hospital and was buried in consecrated grounds.
I'm not able to access indexes.records.nsw.gov.au. It may be that I'm on the main computer and not my laptop. I'll try again shortly.
Thank you for those exciting tit-bits. I'm hoping that we can find a link between the families, but the Seale name didn't seem to leap out at Diane, so maybe it is from Kathleen's side. Or, then, as things seem to be in my case, not related at all!!!!! ;D ;D ;D Cheers, Betty
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Here's the home page to NSW RO https://www.records.nsw.gov.au/ Can choose indexes from there and keyname search (at top of the indexes).
What is the thinking now Betty? And others?
I can race off tomorrow to records office to photograph George HEYNE probate (and land record) if it is likely to throw up some clues. But I would prefer to leave it till Monday if it's a long shot.
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Ros, we've waited this long, please, it can wait a few more days. We're all a patient lot, aren't we peoples? (not speaking for myself, of course. lol ) I say don't do a special trip. I know now what the city traffic is like!! I for one would be interested in the will. Same as for Colin. But that's another story. Cheers, Betty
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What is the thinking now Betty? And others?
I can race off tomorrow to records office to photograph George HEYNE probate (and land record) if it is likely to throw up some clues. But I would prefer to leave it till Monday if it's a long shot.
I say leave the SRO copying for your usual visit as George HEYNE probate and land record would not likely involve Robert STEVENS.... unless he was an executor. It is more out of interest to know a little about George HEYNE (the man Robert STEVENS worked for) and what (if any) past connection is revealed.
Of more interest would be tracking the whereabouts of Colin SEALE (confirmed son of Walter and Kathleen) and finding birth/baptism record of a son Robert SEALE to Walter and Kathleen.
I still believe that if Colin and Robert were brothers, we would see some evidence of them on each others Army or marriage records, just as other members of the family are named. One would expect two brothers who travelled together, would be close and likely be best-man/witness at each others marriages, like Colin was a witness on both his sisters marriages.
CoL
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I've heard from the Australian FIBIS researcher and supplied her with the details that we are chasing. :) :) Betty
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I've also sent in a request to the British Library regarding the wills. This may be the start to putting the pieces of the puzzle together. Betty
Adding - Why not just email the archivists at the BL and ask them to check the wills card-index? They will sometimes do quick lookups for no charge, especially if the enquirer is overseas.
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Not encouraging news I'm afraid. It's the response from the FIBIS researcher.
As you live in Australia you are able to access the following websites at your local library.
Familysearch which is free and contains indexes and brief transcriptions of the 70% of the Ecclesiastical records copied sent home to England from India up to 1947 when India gained its independence. The remainder of the ecclesiastical records remain with the churches/missions in India if they still exist.
Findmypast which is a pay to view website and has a small selection of India office records including indexes and digitised records (including that 70% of ecclesiastical records)
FIBIS Families in British India Society which has approximately 1.5 million transcribed records in its database.
BACSA British Association of Cemeteries in South Asia
It is not always possible to find a record of a baptism/marriage or burial but one can sometimes find a newspaper notification of an event if said event was in fact advertised.
Looking through Findmypast there is no evidence that either Walter or Kathleen left a will, neither was there any probate documents for them in the UK. https://probatesearch.service.gov.uk/#wills
There is no evidence that they had a child named Robert (Henry/W)
I let her know that there was an extensive search for the family of Walter and Kathleen and how we came to be in india. She also gave me a link to search for Wills. Trouble is it only affects Wills after 1996!!
I also mentioned that we've just about exhausted the websites she mentioned. :)
I do really hope that just by pure luck, someone at the British Library uncovers something. Cheers, Betty
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Hi Betty,
There are Three tabs below "Find a will" https://probatesearch.service.gov.uk/#wills
Wills and Probate 1996 to present Wills and Probate 1858 – 1996 Soldier's Wills
Had previously looked. India Office Records requires a manual search. http://www.bl.uk/reshelp/findhelpregion/asia/india/indiaofficerecordsfamilyhistory/willsandadministrations/willsadmin.html
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Hi Betty
In post #29 you stated your father had been left money in a will. Could the will have been Colin's ?.
Muss
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Hi Betty
In post #29 you stated your father had been left money in a will. Could the will have been Colin's ?.
Muss
Betty,
What else can you remember about this money left to your father in a will?
Approx. what year are we talking about?
Was there a funeral that your family/dad attended around this time frame?
Was there talk about who it was, that left this money? Family? Friend? Male? Female? Australia? Overseas?...does anything come to mind?
CoL
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Hi Betty,
Did your father ever talk about the Army? or mention any family/friend that served?
Did he ever mention living family? or talk about the deaths of parents, siblings etc?
Was there any mention of nephews or nieces on your dads side?
CoL
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If it's the Colin who died in more recent times, No. I don't know where I got the impression from but I thought it was way back in the 1920s. Thatd make it Hilda or mother. Sorry CoL. Betty
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CoL - Nada. The only thing ever said relating to the army was the way he slept. Always on his back with arms folded. The reason was because if you rolled off the planks you'd be face down in the mud.
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I'm really sorry for the lack of information as it frustrates me that there was such a secret life which has gone to my parents graves.
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I've had another email from the Australian FIBIS lady. Her suggestions are:
Perhaps you could look towards DNA. Check out Family Tree maker DNA. If there is no male descendants then look at the autisimal? (not sure if that is the correct spelling) option. Without concrete evidence it will be very hard to prove, especially the lack of baptismal records. However I think I advised you to go to an LDS Family history centre and access the Bengal births and baptisms VIA The familysearch catalogue as the digitised images are available online BUT only at the centres not online from home.
So, I think, and especially as I wasn't keen to go there, I'll can going to the Uni and try and get in on Tuesday or Wednesday to the LDS about 50mins from here. I feel it could be a much more rewarding visit. There is a local one, but I think I'd be better off heading to the main centre. I may also need some divine intervention!! ;) Cheers, Betty
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And a reply from The British Library -
Thank you for submitting your enquiry to The British Library Asian & African Reference Service. You will receive a reply within 5 working days.
Cheers, Betty
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If someone fabricates a life and also changes their name, it can only be because there is something to conceal.
If a chap is seriously "in disgrace" would parents acknowledge him in a will?
Well, yes maybe if they were aware of and supportive/agreeable to the deception being in place.
If they were not supportive/agreeable and did not know about it, then he would be untraceable to them for the purpose of receiving the bequest. Lost in Australia under a different name.
We know the HAYNE knew of the fabrication, but when Robert spoke on the phone in Hindi (or Urdu) I wonder if it was a call to overseas.
Who did the recipient of the call think was on the other end? STEVENS or SEALE?
I seem to remember (correct me if I'm wrong, Betty), when a trunk call was placed the recipient was spoken to first by the operator who said something like " I have a trunk call for Mr..... from Wentworth, will you take the call?" Then the connection was made.
The person who received the call which Robert STEVENS made using an Indian language must have known where he was- Australia. So if it was a family member, someone knew the truth about him
Sue
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Hi Betty,
Re: barbados SEALE line.
How many Colin SEALE's were in his line and if so when were their deaths? Is the Colin SEALE Camberwell death 1967 his line? Can we elminate that Colin SEALE?
CoL
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Someone had to know the truth...just not Betty :P
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;D ;D ;D Ha de Ha!!!
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On a llghter note,
On George Arnold Frederick Heyne's file, did you notice, some smart-ass wrote the word "curry" in pencil above INDIA as in "MADRAS CURRY"
Adding: Wonder if they thought he was "Hot" :P
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Hi Betty,
Can you just revisit the finding by your friend of Robert's departure for NZ from NSW in 1921.
Can you give us the month and ship etc.
I can't locate it.
You mentioned it in Reply #5
Sue
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21 April 1921 on ULIMAROA from Sydney to Wellington
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21 April 1921 on ULIMAROA from Sydney to Wellington
Well, I suppose it might well be him, BUT the image of the original manifest is very clearly typed
R. B STEVENS. Aged 23. England (meaning nationality.... which Robert was)
The other details given by your researcher are correct.
Sue
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https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers
Press, Vol LVII, Issue 17128, 25 April 1921, page 10.
The Huddart-Parker Company’s passenger steamer Ulimaroa left Sydney at 2 pm on Thursday with 259 passengers and 600 tons of cargo for Wellington direct.
There is a passenger list in the Evening Post of 26 April 1921, page 6,
I suspect that a Mr Stevens travelled to Wellington NZ as steerage as that newspaper does not include anyone surnamed SEALE or STEVENS, in its main listing, but does note 127 steerage without naming them.
JM
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R. B. STEVENS was grouped under a column headed Labourers and Domestics.
Sue
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I'm doubting RB Stevens being my dad, Robert, as the 2 references which mentioned a middle initial were W and H - which I take to reference either Walter or Henry. Thank you, Betty
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I'm doubting RB Stevens being my dad, Robert, as the 2 references which mentioned a middle initial were W and H - which I take to reference either Walter or Henry. Thank you, Betty
R. B. STEVENS was grouped under a column headed Labourers and Domestics.
Sue
Could R.B. STEVENS be Reginald Beaumont STEVENS?
NSW birth: 18935/1897 Reginald B. STEVENS; Father-Thomas G.; Mother-Mary; Sydney
NZ marriage: 1923/7434 Reginald Beaumont STEVENS and Elizabeth Mary BROMLEY
Electoral Roll: Reginald Beaumont STEVENS, Line Erector
http://caversham.otago.ac.nz/electors/erid.php?erkey=45030
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Sounds pretty good to me. Top searching everyone x
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Robert STEVEN's death and marriage certs (posted on behalf of Betty)
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Hi Betty,
Re: barbados SEALE line.
How many Colin SEALE's were in his line and if so when were their deaths? Is the Colin SEALE Camberwell death 1967 his line? Can we elminate that Colin SEALE?
CoL
This item describes the first arrivals of West Indian Immigrants to Brixton which includes Tulse Hill where electoral roll entries place Colin SEALE 1954 to 1964 (see above Pg 30 Reply#262)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brixton
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I don't know CoL. I'll have to send an email which won't be till later. :)
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If the R B STEVENS (Sydney to NZ) has after all turned out not to be your man, then there is no evidence of him in Australia before his first work reference from HEYNE in 1923.
So perhaps he landed in NZ from his previous place of abode overseas.
He may have landed in NZ under any name and changed it to Robert STEVENS at any time after.
I have looked at the biographical details George HEYNE and would be interested if others can reconcile the “army mates theory” with these facts given from the previous link an article by HEYNE’s son.
http://www.matchamhall.org/local-history/written-histories/the-legacy/the-legacy-introduction
I am quoting some sections from that link.
….He {HAYNE} was born 1880, ….
….Died in Sydney on July 17, 1959….
NB- Considerably older that Robert.
……When my parents first came to Australia in 1908…
NB- So here for the first time well before Robert.
……My parents returned to India in 1909……
…… In 1912 they came back to Australia but the war was imminent and my father who was in the Reserve Officers in the Indian Army was called up. My parents returned again to India in 1913. When the First World War broke out my Dad saw active service in Mesopotamia, Afghanistan and Persia (1911 to 1920)……..
[/i]
NB- During his service, Robert was sleeping on planks (presumably) in the trenches.
.....stayed on as manager but it was too much for him alone. He disposed of the animals and left the farm to work on the tramways in Sydney. Later he returned to Java. So my parents’ farm was left unattended until after the war when they returned with me as a small child, in 1921……
NB-So the entry to Australia found in (muss Reply#199) 1921 was in fact a return to Australia
….. My Dad had been a telegraphist with the Eastern Extension Cable Telegraph Company……
Sue
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Hi
When your parents married . what proof of identity would Robert have used ?
May have used a Statutory Declaration. What happens to the form when used ?
Muss
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Good question Muss. I'm wondering if because of his more advanced years, as opposed to some one in their twenties, he may have bluffed his way through the marriage procedure. He "supposed the records were lost" regarding them (NSW records) not finding his birth certificate. Would they be held with the Courts in Childers, or Brisbane? Betty
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I spoke to a researcher from LDS and he came up with a suggestion that Robert could have been born before mother married. Johnson is as common as Stevens! No luck. I did find a Robert Henry Johnson, but he's a century+ dead.
He suggested that FindMyPast was the best place to search. As well as FIBIS. All baptisms from India have gone onto microfiche.
Then he said that I need to work backwards from the factual evidence. To try NZ Archives. PapersPast (NZ) - which I had had a cursory look. Learnt about the construction of the Mangahao Power station. :)
Then of course there is Trove - and the PO directory. Cheers, Betty
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Although Robert worked as a labourer for most of his life in Australia he was a very well educated man with a good knowledge of many things. So it's going to be interesting to see what he did before the war.
I know it's wrong to assume, but would it be fair to say that if they were in the army in their youth they'd be called up for the army, providing they were of "sound mind an body"?
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Hi Betty,
Did you know there is a board on Rootschat "Armed Forces"
There are some people there who are very knowledgeable and who contribute regularly .
Perhaps they might offer information about British forces in India during WW1. Recruitment, conscription, volunteerism etc.
Sue
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There was no conscription in Australia in WWI.
Was there any follow up to the following post? Or for any other Robert STEVENS NZ Army records?
At the New Zealand Archives online index there’s a digitised NZ Defence Force WWI file for a Robert STEVENS, SA9827, WWI 17/187 Army.
https://www.archway.archives.govt.nz/
....
Robert was in the first WW. I know not where, as like so many of his time, little was said. It would appear (through friend's tracking) that he left Sydney for Wellington, NZ, in 1921. ....
JM
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Thanks CoL. Good spotting. I only have 1st and last pages of Robert records and have emailed the local lady for the full one. Number 37837
Colin's record has duplicate written in red, and the number is 37838
Same enlistment date 26 July 1905
Both enlisted in Allahabad
Robert - "near the town of" Raniket
Colin - Dehra Dun
Robert's age given as 19yrs 1 month.
Colin's age given as 18yrs 1 month
For Colin I do not have the page regarding parents.
Is there anything else you can think of? Ta Betty
Hi. Quoting above from Page 28 this thread.
Just as a "refresher"
On the same page ,Reply#246 has image of the front page of Robert Henry SEALE's attestation.
Consecutive enlistment with Colin SEALE.
Royal Field Artillery.
This was our last other bit of potentially useful information re. WW1 I think ???
Sue
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Did you know there is a board on Rootschat "Armed Forces"
There are some people there who are very knowledgeable and who contribute regularly - No. Learning so much these past few weeks. Of course we are only guessing he enlisted in NZ. Wouldn't he have been called up from India - and under the name "Seale"?
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I've posted on the Armed Forces - Robert Stevens/Seale. Betty
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Thanks CoL. Good spotting. I only have 1st and last pages of Robert records and have emailed the local lady for the full one. Number 37837
Colin's record has duplicate written in red, and the number is 37838
Same enlistment date 26 July 1905
Both enlisted in Allahabad
Robert - "near the town of" Raniket
Colin - Dehra Dun
Robert's age given as 19yrs 1 month.
Colin's age given as 18yrs 1 month
For Colin I do not have the page regarding parents.
Is there anything else you can think of? Ta Betty
Hi. Quoting above from Page 28 this thread.
Just as a "refresher"
On the same page ,Reply#246 has image of the front page of Robert Henry SEALE's attestation.
Consecutive enlistment with Colin SEALE.
Royal Field Artillery.
This was our last other bit of potentially useful information re. WW1 I think ???
Sue
Betty,
Can you please check dates:
Colin bought his discharge in 1907 and Robert bought his discharge in 1907.
On Colin's Army record is written in red the word "Duplicate"....wondering?
CoL
Adding: From Armed Forces - Robert Stevens/Seale http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=768185.msg6204536#msg6204536
Just to put some background to this. Robert Henry Searle enlisted at Allahabad 26 July 1905. He was 19 years and 3 months old. He enlisted in the 19th Battery, Royal Field Artillery after serving in the Allahabad Rifle volunteers.
He purchased his discharge on 13 Feb 1907
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I've just had a good look at the army records of both boys. They both left under Article 1142 on the 13 Feb 1907. They are 2 separate forms filled out by the same officers on each form.
I've added another iron to the fire, by placing a request on the New Zealand Rootschat. This search request is more for the movements around the time of the work done on the Mangahao Dam.
ADDING: The heading is also Robert Stevens/Seale
While Dad was quite intelligent and well read, as well as the training via books to become a radiographer, he had done some jobs as "fireman" and learnt to use farm machinery quite competently. He was good with a rifle - When he was between farms he ran low on food and had to shoot a top knot pigeon for food. I'm guessing that required some steadiness and accuracy.
Betty
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Evening all. I've heard back from Sheila's grandson, and unfortunately there is no new news at all. the information he gathered is what we already know. Cheers, Betty
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I may have missed it, but has anyone found Robert Henry STEVENS or Walter and/or Kathleen STEVENS (Walter as a photographer) in the 1930s in the Australian Electoral Rolls, hopefully in Qld rolls? Robert and Myrtle's marriage was registered Qld in 1941.
Compulsory enrollment etc :) from at least the mid 1920s
JM
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MajM - Nada results. My daughter and I have gone through just about every which way seeking the family starting in Sydney which is where Robert was supposed to have been born and the family lived. No Photographers fitting the description. I've looked through the 2 Mechanical Eye books. Nothing leapt out. I found a Walter Stevenson in Grafton but contact with the family proved a dead end. Cheers Betty
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But have we looked from the point of view Qld and 1930s electoral rolls, working with your Mayfield relatives in Childers, Qld? - so find your Mum's mum's family and then see if there's a Robert Henry S(xxxxxxx) also on the roll?
So, from Myrtle's 1941 marriage cert, what were the given names for her parents?
JM
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William Mayfield and Mary Ann (nee Spencer), my maternal grandparents. I did know them as a child until their deaths. The marriage was not looked favourably upon at all, and the letter Grand-dad wrote giving his consent, was not a pleasant one. William Mayfield came out to Australia on the Argyle when he was 9. Mary- Ann was born in Maryborough, Australia.
My understanding is that Robert went to cut cane for them, which is how he met Mum (Myrtle).
References Electoral Rolls
Feb 1922-10 May 1923 NZ
25 Aug 1923 Matcham
Sep 1923-13 April 1925 Scone
April 1925- 5 Nov 1926 Gosford
29 June 1926- 20 Nov 1926 Broadwater Mill (not sure where)
1932 Parkes Possibly
1933 Deniliquin Possibly
1935 Deniliquin Possibly
1936 Irvingdale
1937 Irvingdale
No references until the period 1935-1940
1935-1939 Irvingdale
1940-March 1941 Pilerwa Gayndah Line (Qld)
1941 Isis Shire Council
Then he was married at the end of December 1941. He lived in Childers then until we moved to Beaudesert,Queensland. I hope this is what you were after. Cheers, Betty
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Broadwater Mill - sounds like a sugar mill (CSR ? ) - so perhaps this one :
http://www.smh.com.au/news/New-South-Wales/Broadwater/2005/02/17/1108500192881.html
If no one else does, I will get a start on the electoral roll hunt tomorrow :)
JM
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1937 Qld ER WIDE BAY, - Childers
Mary Ann MAYFIELD, Horton, home duties
William MAYFIELD, Horton, labourer
NO Robert STEVENS or SEALE or variations. There is a Henry STEVENS at Doolbi, a well borer.
Yes, I will check Ivingdale tomorrow. ;D if others have not started on this.
JM
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JM i did find him in Irvingdale and i have work references. :) Just wanting to save you time :)
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As you have him in Irvingdale, Qld, then we should eliminate your 1932 sighting because that Robert STEVENS was still enrolled in 1937 at same address as 1932 and earlier :
NSW ER 1937 CALARE, - Parkes
Robert STEVENS, Adavale, Goonumbla, labourer
NSW ER 1936 CALARE, Parkes
Robert STEVENS, Adavale, Goonumbla, labourer
NSW ER 1932 CALARE, Parkes
Robert STEVENS, Adavale, Goonumbla, labourer
NSW ER 1930 CALARE, Parkes
Robert STEVENS, Adavale, Goonumbla, labourer
JM (Goonumbla, small rural locality north of Parkes, between Trundle and Alectown, umm.... I have rellies out that way).
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A Question - When did it become compulsory for non-Australian workers to become Australian Citizens in order to be employed in a Government Department, ie a hospital? Ta Betty
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Hi there,
Until 1949 there was no such thing as 'Australian Citizenship'. Our various state and our federal constitution provided for British Subjects, male and female, aged 21 years and over, born here or born elsewhere in the British Empire, or a naturalised British Subject (if born outside the Empire) to be the voters. It became compulsory for British Subjects to enrol to vote in the 1920s.
If Robert was born anywhere in the then British Empire, he would have been expected to be enrolled to vote, if residing in Australia. If Robert was in the AIF during WWI he needed to be a British Subject. I can clearly confirm this from earlier efforts here at RChat and the findings on one of the Fromelles lads. Aime Constant Verpillot, born in Switzerland to French parents who migrated to England, then New Zealand and then Australia. He applied to join the AIF and was not fully attested until he had become a naturalised British Subject. http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=694099.msg5378373#msg5378373
Various members of the generation older than me were in the Commonwealth Public Service and in the NSW Public Service. They all assure me that even post WWII and even in recent times, a person with a British Passport would have been eligible to be a member of the Public Service. I was born in NSW in 1947, my parents were born in NSW years earlier, so too all four grandparents and back so on. In 1947 I was a British Subject, I was not an Australian citizen.
It was not until 1986 that from a constitutional point of view that Australia was fully separated from the United Kingdom.
ADD
The Australian Electoral Commission still permits British Subjects who were already on the roll before the final separation to remain on the electoral roll, even though they have not sought to become Australian citizens.
So, basically, if Robert were born in India, he was born a British Subject and therefore if residing in Australia in the 1930s he should be found on the electoral roll. If an employer wanted to check his citizenship status, the employer could ask to sight 'discharge papers' from the Defence forces, or simply check their local electoral roll which would have been readily available at their local Post Office.
JM
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Adding to JM's post, I think it was around 1986-8 that the Federal Government required new public service employees to have Australian citizenship. My husband held a British passport when he joined the Australian PS in 1977, but my son needed to be an Australian citizen when he joined in 1987/8. However, because my husband was already employed there was no requirement for him to become an Australian citizen.
Hospitals are usually administered by states and may have had different employment conditions.
Judith
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Hi Judith :)
One of my older relatives has just phoned me from Childers Qld. He is keenly reading the thread (but still HE WON'T JOIN RCHAT :-[ ), and he confirms Qld hospitals were definitely administered by the State government, as Joe would not give that up (the then premier of Qld). The effective date in 1986 was August 20, but Qld Parliament may not have brought about legislation until 1989.
JM
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Electoral Roll info re Irvingdale. Seems a Robert STEVENS was in the area from at least 1932.
QLD ER 1930 MARANOA, - Dalby
NO sighting of a Robert STEVENS in that 1930 roll.
QLD ER 1931 MARANOA, - Dalby
NO sighting of a Robert STEVENS in that 1931 roll.
QLD ER 1932 MARANOA, - Dalby
Robert STEVENS, Irvingdale, labourer
QLD ER 1934 MARANOA, - Dalby
Robert STEVENS, Irvingdale, labourer
QLD ER 1936 MARANOA, - Dalby
Robert STEVENS, Irvingdale, labourer
QLD ER 1937 MARANOA, - Dalby
Robert STEVENS, Irvingdale, labourer
JM
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More electoral roll listings, I think these are showing there’s definitely several chaps named Robert STEVENS in the 1930s.
NSW ER 1930 RIVERINA, - Deniliquin
Robert STEVENS, Willurah Station, Booroorban, station hand
NSW ER 1931 RIVERINA Deniliquin
NO listing for a Robert STEVENS.
NSW ER 1932 RIVERINA – Deniliquin
Robert STEVENS, Miegunyah, Booroorban, station hand
NSW ER 1933 RIVERINA – Deniliquin
Robert STEVENS, Miegunyah, Booroorban, station hand
NSW ER 1934 RIVERINA – Deniliquin
Robert STEVENS, Miegunyah, Booroorban, station hand
NSW ER 1935 RIVERINA – Deniliquin
Robert STEVENS, Miegunyah, Boorooban, station hand
NSW ER 1936 RIVERINA – Deniliquin
Pages 52 and 53 are missing from the online images and so I cannot tell if there was a Robert STEVENS enrolled in 1936 at Deni. Sorry.
NSW ER 1937 RIVERINA – Deniliquin
Robert STEVENS, Miegunyah, Booroorban, station hand
NSW ER 1943 RIVERINA – Deniliquin
Robert STEVENS, Miegunyah, Booroorban, station hand
NSW ER 1949 RIVERINA – Deniliquin
NO listing for a Robert STEVENS
JM
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I will NOT type up the given names, because I have NO WAY of confirming if the person is no longer alive, BUT
From the Qld ER for 1943, I can see Robert and Myrtle STEVENS are both listed as residents of a road in Childers. Also on that same road is another person, with the surname STEVENS.
I will send a PM to Betty.
EDIT .... OOPS, the year should be 1949. Fingers got ahead of grey cells.
JM
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Myrtle STEVENS is on the supplementary list for 1943, for WIDE BAY - Childers. And NOT Robert as he seems to be already on the main list ... but the other person is also on that supplementary list, and is shown as residing on same road as Myrtle. Of course, the rolls do NOT have 'house names' or 'house numbers' or 'property names' and the road is several kilometres in length.
QLD ER 1943 WIDE BAY - Childers
Robert STEVENS, Doolbi, Isis line, labourer.
Myrtle may have waited to enrol until she was 21.
JM
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From the Qld ER for 1943, I can see Robert and Myrtle STEVENS are both listed as residents of a road in Childers. Also on that same road is another person, with the surname STEVENS.
In my earlier days of searching I came across this person also. So, I did some tracking. She was born 3.1.1920 and died 18.5.1994. Her husband (born 1912, Childers) died a few months later. When they were living in Childers he was a Linotype Operator. They later moved to Nambour. Which is another "secret" my parents had, as we holidayed in Maroochydore, not far from Nambour!! It made me wonder. When I was of high school age, I was sent to the High School. So, 3 weeks with no child about! :-\ I'll see if i can obtain some more background on that family, though I can't see them being related. Cheers, and thanks, Betty
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Another thought
I am making an assumption. Yes, I know …. Drip under Pressure… etc ….
Anyways, NSW Marriage Act from about 1899 required that the clergy note IF the parents of either the bride or groom were known to be deceased.
(‘dec’ ‘deceased’ or † as usual markings immediately after the name of each parent).
I don’t know if that was a requirement in Qld, but IF IT WERE, then I notice from the 1941 Qld mc that it seems that Robert was aware his parents were still alive as they are not recorded on that document as ‘dec’ or ‘deceased’ or †
I will start a quick thread and ask if there’s any Rchatters familiar with the details on Qld marriage certs for 1940 or 1941, and if so, was there a requirement for the bride or groom to confirm if their parents were known to be deceased. http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=768470.0
JM
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JM, bearing in mind it was the night before they bombed Pearl Harbour, so the war was raging by now. Just how accurate would the Registration have been I wonder.
PS - Have sent a request to the Shannon Library, NZ for any information regarding the construction of the Mangahao Dam. Betty
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But Pearl Harbour news would be 8th December 1941 in Australia .... The US was not yet at War. Robert was too old to enlist, at 46.
And the clergyman would not be concerned about something that had not yet happened, rather he would be concerned with recording the information provided. Yes, it seems more than possible that Robert's surname was not STEVENS at birth, but I think it is a worthwhile task to strive to check at least through any available online electoral rolls to see if there's any likelihood that perhaps his parents were Mr and Mrs Walter STEVENS and/or that they had been in Sydney in about 1895ish. I have many offline NSW resources, but they are all in hardcopy, so before I get my husband to get the next archive box down I am considering some possibles for Robert's earlier years.
ADD
And I think Robert had been in the district for quite a number of years, as those electoral rolls do have a Robert STEVENS at Irvingdale from 1932. ;D
JM
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Oh, JM. It is so humbling to realise the efforts you and everyone else is going through. Robert owes us a drink after all this!!!! :-* :-*
I was thinking more along the lines of a war being on. No. Robert wasn't in the second War. That I knew. Many thanks. Betty
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Its the journey to find the elusive ones that is often the most rewarding for it all helps keep the mind alert to ways to discover and then to solve any of our own ancestors secrets.
Some further STEVENS sightings
Sands Sydney 1895 Alpha Directory
STEVENS W & J, dairykeepers, Ourimbah Road, Mosman.
NSW Gazette 9 June 1892, page 4726 (scroll through) petitioners to NSW Government re Municipal boundaries, seeking to separate from North Sydney Municipality.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/222969047/14085811
James STEVENS, Roseberry Street
Walter STEVENS, Roseberry Street
J & W STEVENS, Roseberry Street
Sands Sydney Suburban 1892
NORTH SYDNEY
Ourimbah road (JM notes there’s a central coast/Gosford suburb ‘Ourimbah’)
Off Macpherson street
STEVENS W & J, dairykeepers
STEVENS W & J plasterers
Rosebery Street
Off Earl Street
WYEATT W, dairykeeper
McKEY Robert, plasterer
And remember earlier I think Sue found a sad newspaper cutting mentioning a Kathleen at Paul Street …. In 1900s … I have added the reply at end of this post.
From same 1892 Sands for NORTH SYDNEY
Paul Street North side
Off Alfred Street
WATERS, William
PAUL William H
Paul Street South Side
Mrs WORTHY
Again from Sands 1892 Suburban NORTH SYDNEY
Macpherson street – East side
From Military road to Wyong road, Long Bay (another mention of a ‘Gosford/central coast locality – Wyong !)
ADAMS A G
Macpherson Street – West Side
ROTHWELL J W
SYNNOTT T E
Mrs Mary COOK
Then Wyong Road….
ADD
These news items relate to the death of a woman named Kathleen JOHNSTON.
She died in North Sydney and was 32 years of age. It is hinted that the death was "unusual" but an inquest was not held as it appeared to be from natural causes.
It is not clear whether or not she was married.
I cannot see the death on the registration indexes.
Perhaps others will have luck, and I'll keep looking.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/229303533
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/14598592
Funeral to Rookwood
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/14598645
Sue
Explanation (to save anyone going back to beginning) - Robert STEVENS named his mum as Kathleen JOHNSTONE on his 1941 marriage, and his place of birth as Sydney, 20 April 1895. (reply # 371)
JM
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Hi Betty,
Going through some electoral information and other resources this morning, I too doubt a family connection to the other woman named STEVENS listed at Goomeri Street.
Her husband born in 1912 was surnamed STEVENS, and is deceased. Their marriage can be seen on QLD bmd website.
Sue
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In my early days of searching, I was looking for landowners by the name of Walter Stevens in the Gosford area. There were none. <ore to the point, I didn't find any. :-\ Even though he was still in India, perhaps through the association with George Heyne, could Walter - or indeed, Colin or Robert - Seale have bought land there?
Also, what seems like many moons ago, I was browsing through Government Gazettes (I hope I've remembered correctly), and came across returned mail for Robert Stevens, Teacher. So dismissed him. What I need to do, is to try and find those gazettes and restart my search with wider eyes!! Especially as I now have drawn up his time frame based on the facts as we know them.
I don’t know if that was a requirement in Qld, but IF IT WERE, then I notice from the 1941 Qld mc that it seems that Robert was aware his parents were still alive as they are not recorded on that document as ‘dec’ or ‘deceased’ or † Possibly another fudging of facts?? Many thanks, Betty
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« Reply #409 on: Today at 07:01 »
Quote
Hi Betty,
Going through some electoral information and other resources this morning, I too doubt a family connection to the other woman named STEVENS listed at Goomeri Street.
Her husband born in 1912 was surnamed STEVENS, and is deceased. Their marriage can be seen on QLD bmd website.
Sue
thank you for the confirmation, Sue :)
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Remembering that the following may well be WAY OFF TRACK, very speculative, but just in case, so to write…. (Walter STEVENS named as Robert's dad on that 1941 Qld mc).
SMH 27 July 1914 http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/15525714
STEVENS
The friends of the late Mr Walter STEVENS are kindly invited to attend his funeral, to move from his late residence, 103 Ourimbah Road, Mosman, …. For Gore Hill Cemetery.
SMH 7 Nov 1919 http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/15855079
STEVENS
The funeral of the late Janet STEVENS will leave the residence of her grandson, The Mushroom, Booth avenue, Collaroy Beach …. For Gore Hill Cemetery
http://www.willoughby.nsw.gov.au/library/history-at-willoughby/gore-hill-cemetery/
Gore Hill Cemetery: Graves Index
Walter STEVENS, PRS (Presbyterian ?)
Plot J12
Interred 27 July 1914,
Aged 60, of Mosman.
Janet STEVENS PRS.
Plot J11,
Interred 7 November 1919
Aged 68, of Neutral Bay, died Manly.
Walter’s probate file https://www.records.nsw.gov.au/item/1765379 Granted 15 January 1920.
Janet’s probate file https://www.records.nsw.gov.au/item/1765375 Granted same day as Walter’s.
Probate files can include NSW death certs. NSW death certs include family history information, including names/ages of the deceased’s children, the deceased’s parents names, where deceased born, married, (to whom), and how long in the colonies… .
JM
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https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QVB6-PPY7
Point Clare Cemetery .... another Gosford locality :) and for a burial of a Walter STEVENS ... alas, no date, not even a year.
JM
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Fudging from WWI on .... reminds me a little of why an AIF chap became Marcel Caux ...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marcel_Caux
http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/content/2004/s1183306.htm
http://booksonwaraustralia.com/digger-diarystories/1873-marcel-caux-member-of-the-20th-battalion-aif-ww1-9781740311533.html
JM
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Acting on a thought. At the time of my father's death they were living in rented accommodation with only bare household furniture, some woodworking tools and general chattels. Mainly because they disposed of most of their belongings when they moved from Childers to Beaudesert to Western Australia. I'm sure he didn't leave a will and with a search fee of nearly $41 I'm not going to pursue this one. ::) If you think I really should, then I will. :) :) Cheers, Betty
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Hi
May account for photo Robert found in New Zealand
http://canterburyphotography.blogspot.com.au/2015/02/stevens.html
Muss
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Some time ago when searching for the movements of Robert Stevens, and his migrating to New Zealand, I came across a Robert Stevens who sailed on the "Ulimaroa" on 21 April 1921. I have had another look for the passenger list for the "Ulimaroa", going via FindMyPast and Ancestry, with no luck. Nor another site, "Denise and ??" who had just about every other ship except the "Ulimaroa". :-\
If someone is successful in finding a link to the passenger list please forward it to me to browse. Then, and with any luck, it might be our person of interest, with a familiar name of a passenger on board. Many thanks, Betty
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Some time ago when searching for the movements of Robert Stevens, and his migrating to New Zealand, I came across a Robert Stevens who sailed on the "Ulimaroa" on 21 April 1921. I have had another look for the passenger list for the "Ulimaroa", going via FindMyPast and Ancestry, with no luck. Nor another site, "Denise and ??" who had just about every other ship except the "Ulimaroa". :-\
If someone is successful in finding a link to the passenger list please forward it to me to browse. Then, and with any luck, it might be our person of interest, with a familiar name of a passenger on board. Many thanks, Betty
Betty, see reply # 363 and thereabouts. :)
JM
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ooooppppsss One red faced Me
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Betty, as far as the will is concerned, you should be able to find a probate notice in the main newspapers, West Australian, within a few years of his death. If the will contains mention of another name, it should say "also known as " on the probate notice. [ I think this is the case ]
As a W.A. Resident you can have free online access to W.A. Newspapers by obtaining a readers ticket from Library of Western Australia.
Ros
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Hi everyone. I've heard from the British Library. The reference specialist couldn't find a will for either Walter or Kathleen, nor a record of a Baptism for Robert. She also stated what we knew, that the records aren't complete. She gave me an address within the General Register Office to see if they can help. As well as addresses for overseas if they can't help. And, she has also sent through pages of "other correspondence" which I will have a read of, but i did see something about a daughter. Sleep well. :) Betty
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Well. The paperwork sent through confirms that Colin Seale is not Robert. He went to England in 1939. They relate to a request to the High Commission to trace him. Colin had a daughter, Lorna, and a son, possibly two, as there was a reference to "Lorna's brothers" in one of the letters. The one brother mentioned is referred to as Gunner D Seale.
Lorna was born about 1930. She left India in 1948 to go to England, and to try and find her father. In the meantime she stayed with a Mr and Mrs RP Grant. (I'm not sure if they are related to George Grant who had married Hilda Seale in 1917).
Colin was located living with a Sergeant B Seale in Burniston Barracks, Scarborough. UK. Betty
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With the good fortune of the UK being quite a few hours behind, I decided to push my luck and ask the researcher if she could possibly look for a will for Hilda Grant (nee Seale). Which she generously did. Nothing for her or George. That brick wall is getting high again!!!!!!
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(http://www.sherv.net/cm/emo/angry/tearing-hair.gif) (http://www.sherv.net/)
Hi Betty,
The last we have on Robert Edward SEALE is the purchase of his discharge in 1907 on the exact day as Colin SEALE, both forms being signed by the same officer. Both Robert and Colin joined on the same day and have consecutive service numbers. Colin's file having in red "Duplicate".
Is there any way of finding further detail about this 'purchased' discharge? as this may show the reason for the discharge and may reveal more info on the connection between Robert and Colin.
CoL
EDIT: As Betty correctly ponted out "Robery Henry SEALE"
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(http://www.sherv.net/cm/emo/angry/tearing-hair.gif) (http://www.sherv.net/)
We need this added to RChat's options. Straight away if possible :P
JM
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Robert Edward SEALE - Should read "Robert Henry SEALE". :)
JM is adding to the Options something I have to do?? Betty
Also looking like I may have to go to the local (found one) LDS centre and start reading papers!!!
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Nope, Betty, it is not something any of us can do, except we could suggest to our Moderator (Sarah) that it could be a consideration for the owners (Sarah and Trystan) of the website for 'next upgrade'. ;D
JM
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Aaahh. Duh! I getcha :) :)
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CoL is it worth asking your wonderful Army buffs if they have resources to search this out?
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(http://www.sherv.net/cm/emo/angry/tearing-hair.gif) (http://www.sherv.net/)
Hi Betty,
The last we have on Robert Edward SEALE is the purchase of his discharge in 1907 on the exact day as Colin SEALE, both forms being signed by the same officer. Both Robert and Colin joined on the same day and have consecutive service numbers. Colin's file having in red "Duplicate".
Is there any way of finding further detail about this 'purchased' discharge? as this may show the reason for the discharge and may reveal more info on the connection between Robert and Colin.
CoL
EDIT: As Betty correctly ponted out "Robery Henry SEALE"
CoL is it worth asking your wonderful Army buffs if they have resources to search this out?
With the good fortune of the UK being quite a few hours behind, I decided to push my luck and ask the researcher if she could possibly look for a will for Hilda Grant (nee Seale). Which she generously did. Nothing for her or George. That brick wall is getting high again!!!!!!
Betty,
You may need to push your luck once again and ask the above researcher, as we need some experts in UK to assist with this challenge.
CoL
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Lorna was born about 1930. She left India in 1948 to go to England, and to try and find her father. In the meantime she stayed with a Mr and Mrs RP Grant. (I'm not sure if they are related to George Grant who had married Hilda Seale in 1917).
Betty
Did you have a suburb or address for R P GRANT on the documents?
If it was in the London area, I can see one Robert P. (which turns out to be for P ercy, I think) GRANT in the London area..
There is information about this chap which I have dug up, but not worth publishing here unless we think the name on the document was actually Robert or have an address for the documented man and wife.
Sue
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Greenwood Avenue, Hull
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No, not the chap I found ::)
Sue
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Now, here is another stab ???
A marriage.
I don't know what date the arrival of Lorna was but....
Marriages June Qu. 1948
SEALE Lorna E.
MADDOCK Ernest H
Finsbury 5c/ 1183
Middle names from the Electoral Roll are Elizabeth and Henry.
Sue
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Hmm. I suspect that must be another Lorna, as our Lorna was with Grant family until October 1948, at least, and attended a school to learn Stenographer abilities in order to gain a profession.
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Mmmm....
My stabs are not good today :-X
Sue
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::) I cannot get Lorna from India to England ::) my armchair online index says it is "All UK, Incoming Passenger Lists, 1878-1960" .... but I cannot find her there under the name Lorna SEALE. :-\ :-\ :-\
JM
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JM- I'll double check later, but I'm sure it was in April that she made her way there.
Have sent an email to the researcher in the UK. Fingers crossed that she has the time, want and the documents are "easy" to locate. And the planets align and give us some rewarding news!!!!!! ;D ;D
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Letter by RP Grant to the High Commissioner for India, India House, London. Dated 30 March 1948
QUOTE (in part):.. an 18 year old daughter, Lorna, is staying at my house at the moment. Up to February 18 of this year she was attending the Girls High School (La Martiniere) at Luchnow. On that date she sailed in the "SS Empire Brent" from Bombay, arriving in Liverpool on March 8th."
It goes into detail about the arrangements for travel being made a Mr Webb, Evacuee and Repatriation Officer for the European Assoc. Lorna hadn't heard from her father in two years. She contacted Mr Grant a week before sailing. then he goes on imploring the HC for assistance in finding Colin. He also asks if there was a scheme where Lorna s"could be assisted in any way fitting herself out for a career."
In a letter (21 April 1948) to the Commonwealth Relations Office, Downing Street, from the Office of the High Commissioner for the United Kingdom, she was advised that Lorna's brother was contributing to her maintenance.
In a letter from the Lady Principal of Martiniere School, she mentions that Grant is a cousin. In the merchant navy. Lorna had been in touch with the Principal mentioning that she "is taking a course in Stenography with a view to taking up work as soon as she is equipped to do so."
By May 1948 Colin had been traced to Sergeant B Seale (a brother of Lorna's according to a letter by RP Grant) in married quarters Burniston Barracks, Scarborough. E Yorks. Cheers, Betty
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Well, even though many mysteries remain, the fact that R. P. GRANT is mentioned to be a cousin, makes a good firm connection between this Colin SEALE and the GRANT family.
R.P. GRANT, it seems, was the son of Lorna's aunt Hilda GRANT (nee SEALE).
Sue
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Ooo Sue, I didn't know that. No names? So, I wonder who brought him up as Hilda died so young.
And now, also, we have the names (well, almost) of the 3 children to Colin. :) With a military background for the 2 boys, that may (I daren't say "should") make it easier to trace them. One of the family may even have come out as a 10 pound Pom. I feel a twinge of excitement again. Cheers, Betty
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Ooo Sue, I didn't know that. No names?
Betty,
I hope I have not misinterpreted your post and made an incorrect conclusion re the cousin relationship.
You do say
"In a letter from the Lady Principal of Martiniere School, she mentions that Grant is a cousin. In the merchant navy. Lorna had been in touch with the Principal mentioning that she "is taking a course ........"
So, I took this to mean LORNA said to the Principal by letter, "Grant is a cousin in the merchant navy" (that is, a cousin of hers- Lorna's)
Is that not what you meant to say?
Sue
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Sue, your interpretation is correct. :)
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G'day all. I received an email from Sheila's grandson today, with some information. He came across a record for a Colin Bruce Seale born in India 1926. Later married Phyllis J Osgathorpe (sound familiar), but using the names of Bruce Colin. Stating he was born in 1926. On his death certificate in 2002, the birth date was given as 04 Feb 1926. This does put his age at what I guessed for him to be a Sergeant back in 1948. The grandson raises the question, "Could this be the son of Colin and Lily?" Looks good eh?
He asked if I had given up on the possibility of Robert Edward (born 1889) being my Dad. With all the excitement of the chase over the past few weeks, I'd forgotten! And I never heard back from the only contact I came across.
As yet, I've not heard back from the researcher in the UK. Cheers, Betty
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I came across a death for Phyllis J Seale in 1964. Aged 38. Betty
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G'day all. I received an email from Sheila's grandson today, with some information. He came across a record for a Colin Bruce Seale born in India 1926. Later married Phyllis J Osgathorpe (sound familiar), but using the names of Bruce Colin. Stating he was born in 1926. On his death certificate in 2002, the birth date was given as 04 Feb 1926.
Colin Bruce SEALE has been "looked at" earlier in this thread, and yes, he would seem to be Colin's son. The deaths of Colin Bruce (Known as Bruce) and his wife can be found on https://familysearch.org/
It looks like Colin lived with the couple in 1948, according to your findings above.
More information is probably available about Bruce and Phyllis, but I'm not sure it is of value.
G'day all. I received an email from Sheila's grandson today, He asked if I had given up on the possibility of Robert Edward (born 1889) being my Dad. With all the excitement of the chase over the past few weeks, I'd forgotten! And I never heard back from the only contact I came across.
Cheers, Betty
Just wondering whether Sheila's grandson has been reading this thread?
Replies #20 through to #26 "deal with the Robert Edward theory"
And of course, you do have the DC for Marjorie SEALE.
You have mentioned that your personal genetic profile is Caucasian, which seemed to rule out the connection.
ADDING
However, having said that, I can still see how many of the known facts of your Robert's whereabouts and early life may kind of fit the timeline and the circumstances of this mysterious "circus runaway wife "theory. ::) ;D
Unfortunately, this is not a sound research approach and cannot be seriously considered without more evidence :o
Sue
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Just wondering whether Sheila's grandson has been reading this thread?
Not to the best of my knowledge as I'm sure I told him, though not sure if he's had time or inclination to view it. He is under a bit of pressure work-wise at present and will further the Johnson connection when things settle.
You have mentioned that your personal genetic profile is Caucasian, which seemed to rule out the connection.
As a child I had pale gingery hair which prompted the nickname by the neighbour to call me "Betty Blue". :) Cheers, Betty
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Betty,
Have you check out this line?
Births 1926 Qtr Oct-Nov-Dec https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QV3J-MZSM
Name: Stanley T. WHIKE
Event Place: Pontefract, Yorkshire, England
Mother's Maiden Name: Taylor
Volume: 9C Page: 165 Line Number: 37
Marriages 1954 Qtr Jul-Aug-Sep https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QVDN-G12Z
Stanley T. WHIKE and L**** C. SEALE
Event Place: Pontefract, Yorkshire, England
Volume 2C Page 1344 Line Number 48
Births 1961 Jan-Feb-Mar https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QV7R-SZXD
Name: Dene WHIKE
Event Place: Wakefield, Yorkshire, England
Mother's Maiden Name: Seale
Volume 2D Page 802 Line Number 19
Death 2012 Dene WHIKE
https://mobile.twitter.com/rjt2012/status/193710060080332802
http://twicsy.com/i/4V8Aob
http://www.newsshopper.co.uk/announcements/publicnotices/notice/26531.Section_27_of_the_Trustee_Act_1925____Dene_Whike/
https://www.thegazette.co.uk/notice/L-60291-1684366
(see pg 16) http://www.takeheart.net/news138.pdf
Everlasting love and memory of my beloved husband Stanley Whike and my precious only child Dene Whike. From Mrs L**** Whike
2010 http://www.takeheart.net/donations%20to%20july%2010.htm
In memory of Stanley Whike
http://www.192.com/atoz/people/whike/lorna/ls16/3000213994/
CoL
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G'day all, Lo and behold. Out from the cobwebs, the UK Library researcher has surfaced. Below is part of her response. Keep the lid on the champagne bottle.
I checked again but there doesn't seem to be any other information on Colin or Robert Seale. We do have records for a Robert Henry Seale but these are from before the time you specified so I am assuming that this is perhaps the father or relative of Walter Earle, based on the dates. When I search for Colin or Robert I can only find the military records of enlistment that you found. I re-checked the indexes to the wills too, but found nothing I'm afraid.
The only two other options I can suggest at this point is contacting an independent research agent who can perhaps do a more in-depth search on your behalf (I have attached a list of agents that are familiar with our records) or AGRA, the Association of Genealogists and Researchers in Archives: http://www.agra.org.uk/
What can you tell me about the independent researchers? Thanks all for your patience. Cheers, Betty
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Betty,
Can you check this one please http://www.rootschat.com/links/01jv8/
Seale, Dennis James — — 1941; Royal Artillery Attestations 1883-1942
CoL
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Hi All. No, I haven't given up, just been busy away from the computer. I've been in touch with a RC researcher from UK and NZ. Re NZ - asked if she could look up the 1922 electoral roll. And to maybe backtrack Robert's movements. As to the poor UK researcher, I asked for details on Bruce Seale, Robert Seale, Gunner Seale, RP Grant. Also contacted the naa uk site. I'll contact GRO, pending the result of the UK researcher. Any thing else for me to do? :) Cheers, Betty
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Happy Easter and safe travels everyone. :) :)
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I went sideways in my searching and contacted the "owner" of George Heyne Family Tree. Below is her response to my question regarding a quick search for Robert Stevens/Seale in NZ.
I have sent you another invitation to my tree. Hope it works.
Yes, Avice spent many years in NZ before returning to India and marrying George Heyne. I have searched NZ census returns on Ancestry but cannot find your father under either name. Perhaps there are some power station records and you could contact whomever is responsible for them?
Cheers, Betty
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I've been informed by the NZ branch that there are no census records, and the electoral rolls are on Ancestry. So I shall start a search there. :)
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Hi Betty
I am fairly certain many rootschatters have searched the NZ electoral rolls for your man without success.
Perhaps you will turn something up ;D
There are many well-intentioned family tree publishers out there, but not all are experienced or accurate in their publications or sources.
Sue
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Thanks Sue :) This journey has certainly taught me to verify any info received. Not to take things for gospel. :)
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Oh. And ancestry didn't come up trumps for me, either. Betty
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Does anyone have any idea if this was resolved? It's been a fascinating story.
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In answer to the question, if this has been resolved. No. I'm still trying to determine if Robert was a Seale, or as was known in NZ and Australia from 1922, Stevens. Having this conversation to look back through just may help me to look into other areas. Unfortunately, I have no blood connection to Robert, as I found out a few years ago that he, along with his wife, adopted me. :( Sad, because I was SO hoping to be able to find his family through DNA. Cheers and thanks for following the story. :)