RootsChat.Com
Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Wales => Topic started by: Ayashi on Thursday 02 February 17 15:34 GMT (UK)
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My ancestors, or at least some of them, came from Carmarthenshire. A couple of weeks back I idly decided to entertain myself by trying my hand at learning Welsh and found a free online course from the Open University for beginners Welsh (supposedly South Wales vocab, which I like because it was the vocab of my ancestors!). My pronunciation is naturally godawful but I imagined I might be able to converse in writing once I'd learned enough. I haven't been doing too badly, but something has unnerved me a bit.
When I googled a particular phrase that I hadn't been taught yet, I came across sites that gave different phrases/spellings to the ones I'd learned, for example I was taught "Ble dych chi'n byw?" but it seems "ydych" is a more common word, or "Beth yw'ch enw chi?" when I've also seen "Beth ydy'ch enw chi?"
I know that North and South Wales have some regional differences and it might be that I'm also being taught more casual vocabulary rather than the Welsh equivalent of Queen's English?I also know that just in English there must be several ways of saying the same thing. I just want to be sure that what I'm being taught at the moment is valid and I'm not going to have to relearn various phrases. I don't want to get too far into learning it if I need to find a different source.
I suppose I'm also nervous of trying to strike up a conversation with someone in Welsh and having the other person completely slaughter what I've just written because of spelling, grammar or vocabulary.
Ayashi
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Congratulations Ayashi, it's not an easy language to learn, not least because of the differences you've already discovered :) As far as I can remember, ydych is the more formal / written word.
I did a crash course about 30 years ago but sadly rarely had a chance to chat with anyone. And I sounded very English! I can still remember lots of words but find it very difficult to put together a whole sentence!
However, most Welsh speakers are pleased to hear you try so do persevere (especially if you are enjoying the course).
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Thanks. Would you recommend that I start using ydych instead of just dych?
I did learn French and German at school but wasn't too great at it. For one thing, I have Asperger's and talking out loud was something that was intensely uncomfortable. I failed my AS German exam because I walked out. One thing that really killed it for me when I was doing German was when we got to nominative, dative, etc and then my understanding flew out of the window. I don't really expect to end up fluent!
I suppose I should carry on for now and see how it goes?
Ayashi
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Carry on - if you're enjoying it - but it might be easier to stick with what the course is teaching you as there are probably a lot of other 'spoken' words. You will be understood.
Hopefully others - real Welsh speakers - will join in and encourage you.
Pob lwc 😀
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Sut Mae or Shwmae Ayashi
The emphasis in most Welsh courses seem to be to teach you what you rightly guess as being a more casual version of what you would class as the "Queen's English" or literary Welsh (used in written language). It's more important for learners to be able to speak in a way that is understood by all, using the sort of language that is actually spoken, so you can speak it and use it. It isn't that different really, apart from shortening the actual words as in the example you gave ble dach chi'n byw as opposed to ble ydych chi'n byw). If anything the courses devised by WLPAN in Wales (as opposed to the OU) tend to use the word "ti" rather than chi (which is more familiar), so most people would, especially if they know each other, say ble wyt ti'n byw or ble ti'n byw instead of ble dach chi'n byw. The younger generation will almost always use this kind of casual Welsh. Don't know of many others like myself who still prefer to stick to "proper" Welsh.
Hwyl
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Diolch yn fawr ;D
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Helo - sut wyt ti !
Those of us who are welsh speaking know both versions - both the familiar - ti a chdi and the formal / polite - chi. We were brought up to use the familiar for family and the polite for people we didn't know so well and the elders in the family to show respect.
Nowadays as mentioned previously we tend to use the familiar - although when I speak to clients I use the formal version.
Whatever you use when chatting to us - we will happily reply to it ; its great that someone has decided to make the effort to learn our language.
I don't know if you have any welsh facebook friends but I guarantee you that our welsh teachers would be having fits if they saw how we chat to each other by text and Facebook and messenger - we tend to use the very informal welsh that we chat with day to day. Although we all can and do use the "proper" welsh when there is a need to.
Just a quick warning tho' - google translate is not the best to use to try and translate stuff - it can come out with some very weird variations on the language. There are other programmes out there to use.
Pob Hwyl !
Nesta
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I don't know if you have any welsh facebook friends but I guarantee you that our welsh teachers would be having fits if they saw how we chat to each other by text and Facebook and messenger - we tend to use the very informal welsh that we chat with day to day. Although we all can and do use the "proper" welsh when there is a need to.
I have a relative who actually teaches Welsh and she uses 'joio' instead of mwynhau (enjoy).
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Helo - sut wyt ti !
Iawn, diolch. A chithau? ;D
Just a quick warning tho' - google translate is not the best to use to try and translate stuff - it can come out with some very weird variations on the language. There are other programmes out there to use.
Oh boy don't I know it. Many years ago I decided to translate "My family come from Wales" and then ran it back through and got something along the lines of "Family Servant Shovel Heartburn". Still a mystery to me, that one lol
Ayashi
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Gret diolch !
but - up here we would say "a chdi" or "sut wyt ti"
:)
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There's so many ways of saying different things :-\
I'm already getting the feeling that most of what I'm learning on this course is going to be corrected by Welsh speakers :-\
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Nothing is ever wrong - just different local idioms
Enjoy learning the language and don't worry about getting everything right !
:)
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There was an item on a BBC Radio 4 programme today about Radio Cymru. I think it was on " Feedback". It featured a visit to the Welsh station. Suggestions by listeners included more help for learners of Welsh who were not resident in Wales.
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Getting the right Grammar can make such a big difference to your interest and understanding while learning. Many years ago I tried "Teach Yourself Welsh' by John T Bowen and T J Rhys Jones first published 1960 reprinted 1971. It just didn't grab me in the same way that I have progressed with other languages. But then I got hold of a newer Teach Yourself Welsh this time by T J Rhys on his own in 1991 and this had cassette tapes which I didn't get with the book but managed to borrow from a library. That made all the difference. I just couldn't put it down and the interruption only came when we made a major home move and there was so much else to be dealt with.
Cymraeg was more or less the language that all of Britain spoke and understood at one time and I feel that that is good enough reason for anyone interested in their heritage and history to take it up. I then discovered little things that showed me how some of the old language remains with us to this day. For example in French and German the present tense doesn't vary as it does in English - we can say 'I Play' or 'I am playing' and I'm sure that the latter is a remnant from the old language as is an answer to a question which can be 'I Do' rather than 'Yes' or 'No'. I think this comes from 'Y Dw'. Just a feeling and a guess, but who knows.
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I've finished the little beginner's course I was doing but currently I'm having a bit of bother finding a decent other course to start on. The OU only had the one course. :-\
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Have a look at
www.bangor.ac.uk
This is bangor university they do have welsh courses - they may have online ones
X
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Diolch. I did find a couple of linked sites that will keep me occupied for a bit. Hopefully soon I'll have amassed enough sensible sentences to have a reasonable conversation ;D
I have to say though, the section on clothes is tickling me a bit.
A lot of the words are very similar, like sgarff = scarf, sgert = skirt, trowsus = trousers etc, and then "ironing" sounds like "smoothio", which appealed to my sense of humour. With "crys" being "shirt", I'd better not get a crease in my crys or I might have to smoothio it. ::) ;D
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;D
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Well what else would you do to a shirt but smooth it !!!
::)
X
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I'd better not get a crease in my crys or I might have to smoothio it. ::) ;D
"Dashing away with your smoothing iron" as the old song said. Stick to 'smwddo' (with a harn [iron] smwddo) Smwddio (with a haearn or hetar smwddio) is Gog Welsh . . . dal ati :)
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I'm afraid I didn't understand most of that lol
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Nothing wrong with Gog Welsh !
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Just trying to illustrate how 'smoothing' (i.e. ironing) has been borrowed from English into Welsh; remembered later that the South Welsh for ironing is 'stilo', which I imagine came from English 'steel'. 'Gog' is Northerner (Gogleddwr); we call Southerners (half my ancestors) Hwntws (the beyonders); extremists say that they start South of Porthmadog.
Hope that you are not completely disaffected by the above and that your learning proceeds as you hope,
Hwyl
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Diolch, Pinot. I'll stick with what the course says for now, regional differences can be tweaked later!
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I know this has multiple answers depending on region, so I'm particularly interested in South Wales (Carmarthenshire kind of area) for preference, but how do you pronounce "eisiau"? The course has a robot voice pronouncing things but the pronunciation seems a bit iffy on that one in my mind...
Diolch
Ayashi
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If you say the words "Hey shy" and drop the "H" then that's pretty much how you'd say "Eisiau"
(I'm from North Wales)
Although in South Wales they're more likely to say "Hey sha" (again without the "H")
The second "i" in eisiau is silent in South Wales, but not in the North. :)
On this page it gives you two different speakers, the chap says it the North Wales way (proper Welsh!) and the lady says it the South Wales way.
https://forvo.com/word/eisiau/
It makes no difference whichever way you say it.
All the best with your Welsh!
Trystan
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Thanks Trystan, that's just what I wanted :) The robot voice is helpful but you don't know when it is wrong!
Dw i eisiau dysgu Cymraeg :D I did find another Rootschatter using the same course but who is far further ahead than I am, so in the future might have a natter partner :D
Ayashi
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I learnt Welsh while I was at university in Lampeter - the University of Wales, Trinity Saint David still offers Welsh language classes on-line: http://www.uwtsd.ac.uk/certificate-practical-welsh/ and should be suitable for west Wales.
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Cheers :) I've book marked it just in case.
I'm actually tempted to start learning French and German again after this. I did both at school but gave up in college.
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I have no idea of your age but just thought I'd mention that learning a language in one's "senior years" is thought to help keep brain "healthy" by exercising it and so may slow down onset of Alzheimer's. To that end a charity has begun language classes for older people in my area.
My Welsh "speaking " is limited to trying to sing along with well-known hymns on St. David's Day edition of "Songs of Praise". My ancestors included Jones and Davis.
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I have no idea of your age but just thought I'd mention that learning a language in one's "senior years" is thought to help keep brain "healthy" by exercising it and so may slow down onset of Alzheimer's. To that end a charity has begun language classes for older people in my area.
My Welsh "speaking " is limited to trying to sing along with well-known hymns on St. David's Day edition of "Songs of Praise". My ancestors included Jones and Davis.
That is true and it is so important to keep our old brains very active with learning and doing puzzles. I do hope though that you learn more of the old British language for I feel that just doing that forges a stronger link to our ancestors who are looking on. For those who find genders and declensions a bit too much then I recommend Turkish. It is so much easier as it just adds on tense syllables and suffixes for prepositions to the end of words. The alphabet was only worked out by Ataturk around 1926 so there is just one letter for each consonant or vowel - e.g. no need for the letter 'C' to represent S or K so they use it for the 'J' sound and adding a cedilla to it softens it into 'Ch' - same with 'S', add a cedilla and it softens from the 'ss' sound into 'sh'. Only difficulty at first with Turkish is that the suffixes can change to match a preceding front or back vowel, but you soon get used to that.
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I'm 28. I was going to put that in Welsh but I know there are two number systems in play now and I'm being taught the decimal.
I had a Turkish girl in my class at school. Her name was Çağla, which the teachers mispronounced all the time. Not that she cared, she just allowed it but every time the rest of the class, as one wave of peer indignation, would correct people on her behalf lol
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I learned some Irish when I was younger. At the time I had an older relative nearby with whom I could practise, but he died when he was still learning the basics. He also spoke & wrote German. One of his brothers learned 2 European language at town's "Night School" when he retired, so had 4 languages. Their elder brother used to travel to Irish classes in Manchester as a young man and won medals. They also had Church Latin of course, from childhood. (Prayers at home were Irish.) They'd all left school at 13 or 14 but never stopped learning.
I'm also interested in "Old English" languages, Anglo-Saxon and Norse. I learned an Anglo-Saxon word on here.
I discovered from a TV series about the Vikings, that some words familiar to me were Norse.
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I'm 28. I was going to put that in Welsh but I know there are two number systems in play now and I'm being taught the decimal.
I had a Turkish girl in my class at school. Her name was Çağla, which the teachers mispronounced all the time. Not that she cared, she just allowed it but every time the rest of the class, as one wave of peer indignation, would correct people on her behalf lol
Her name then would have been pronounced as 'Chala' because that is a Yumuşak ‘g’ and is a very faint 'g' sound at the back of the throat which is more or less silent to the ear. Many Turkish names end in oǧlu (olu) meaning 'Son' and news presenters regularly get that wrong. So did they call her 'Charlie'? There must have been some Turkish people or at least people who had lived in Turkey, in Village Way, Rayners Lane in the early 1950's because I remember a house about half way down that had 'Evimiz' on the Gate - or was it the door? Ev means 'House' in Turkish and 'imiz' is the suffix for 'Our'. 'im' is 'My' and 'iniz' is 'your'.
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I'm 28. I was going to put that in Welsh but I know there are two number systems in play now and I'm being taught the decimal.
28 is dau ddeg wyth (literally, two tens eight) :) The Welsh language has maths built into the way we say the numbers.
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Nothing wrong with Gog Welsh !
I agree... ;D
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28 is dau ddeg wyth (literally, two tens eight) :) The Welsh language has maths built into the way we say the numbers.
Indeed, although we are now taught strictly (number of tens) ten (number), so eleven is un deg un, twelve un deg dau etc, whereas it was a lot different in the original number system.
Her name then would have been pronounced as 'Chala' [...] So did they call her 'Charlie'?
Yes, she was "Chala", but the teachers would call her "Cagla". She was blissfully unconcerned about this. People used to mispronounce her surname as well but her response to anyone asking why she didn't correct them was a shrug and "well, that's how people pronounce it here".
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28 is dau ddeg wyth (literally, two tens eight) :) The Welsh language has maths built into the way we say the numbers.
Indeed, although we are now taught strictly (number of tens) ten (number), so eleven is un deg un, twelve un deg dau etc, whereas it was a lot different in the original number system.
Yes, I think that dau ddeg wyth (two tens eight) for 28 is the same system that you're taught I think. The thing is to mutate the "D" of ddeg because of the the "U" of the dau. Otherwise, it would be "dau deg wyth" which wouldn't sound right.
The other way of saying it (which isn't the way that you're being taught) is to say "wyth ar hugain" which is literally "eight and twenty". "Ugain" is another way of saying twenty, and it's mutated to Hugain to make it sound better.
You hear both ways of saying the numbers in everyday language. My mother uses the "wyth ar hugain" way of saying it, but I stick with the easier "dau ddeg wyth".
Anyway it's "chwech of one" and "hanner dwsin" of the other. :)
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I've been trying to learn welsh since finding out that some of my ancestors spoke it when researching my family tree. I've been using cd and booklet called hands free Welsh.
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I've been trying to learn welsh since finding out that some of my ancestors spoke it when researching my family tree. I've been using cd and booklet called hands free Welsh.
Every Briton has Welsh ancestry - our dna proves this, e.g. the dominant Ydna in all of Britain is R1b1a2. Therefore there is a very good reason for us all to dysgu Cymraeg when we ask ourselves 'Pwy Ydw I?'
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;D
Duolingo has been suiting me so far for the most part; there are a few little issues. Unfortunately I'm too silent a person to learn the speaking of it. I don't even speak English much.
The next question on my list is on the topic of time: I'm being taught that, for example, 4:35 is expressed as "five minutes and twenty to five". Why "five minutes and twenty" rather than "five and twenty minutes"?
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4:35 is expressed as "five minutes and twenty to five". Why "five minutes and twenty" rather than "five and twenty minutes"?
That's got my brian brain confused now. It's easier if you put the welsh words down for us to see them. :) :)
I think you're asking why "Pum munud ar hugain i bedwar" rather than "Pum ar hugain munud i bedwar"? (I've made the minute/munud in bold to show its position)
I don't know the reason for why we say it like that, or for a lot of things we say in any language.
The way I think of it is that the descriptive bit (adjectives, adverbs) in Welsh comes after the important bit. So the sooner we get the word "munud" (minute) into the expression the better.
The more traditional way of saying numbers that I waffled about above is the way we say the time, but throwing in the "munud" earlier for good measure.
As far as speaking Welsh, it does help to try to speak it out to yourself as you read it. Many of the way things are said (or the spelling with the 'mutations') is to do with how it flows as it's spoken. That's wy my Welsh isn't as good as it should be because I live in England and don't have the chance to use it.
Trystan
PS I did manage to speak in Welsh to HM Revenue & Customs yesterday though - they have a Welsh language option. They answered the phone quickly and a lady spoke to me in perfectly brilliant Gog Welsh, and she sorted things out in a jiffy in a real friendly manner.
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Yes, that's what I mean. It makes sense to me to leave the number "pum ar hugain" intact but I'm starting to think the Welsh like to not make sense ;D I think I'm going slightly batty with every sudden soft mutation and every time I think I've got the hang of the use of Mae/ydy etc and suddenly an exception!
???
Making progress though.
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Well if it's any consolation, my Mam still corrects me. :)
You can leave the soft mutations if it drives you potty for now. That's just icing on the cake.
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One thing that I wish they hadn't done is to introduce other dialects early on in the course. For my poor brain trying to get itself around one dialect, complicating matters by trying to each me several different words for milk etc didn't do much to help! I'd rather learn one dialect and then later do a section on alternatives.
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Welsh Poet Laureate was on the arts programme "Front Row" on BBC Radio 4 tonight to mark St. David's Day. He recited his poem "Umbrella" in Welsh, each verse followed by his English translation. Then he explained rhyming and alliteration in Welsh poetry. He was born in London.
There should be more about Wales and Welsh on BBC nationwide.
Happy St. David's Day to all.
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28 is dau ddeg wyth (literally, two tens eight) :) The Welsh language has maths built into the way we say the numbers.
Indeed, although we are now taught strictly (number of tens) ten (number), so eleven is un deg un, twelve un deg dau etc, whereas it was a lot different in the original number system.
The other way of saying it (which isn't the way that you're being taught) is to say "wyth ar hugain" which is literally "eight and twenty".
Trystan's 'eight and twenty' reminded me of 'four and twenty blackbirds', which is by now an archaic method of counting; it's also worth remembering the former English method of counting by 'scores' (20's), which mirrors the older Welsh counting system Trystan refers to; remember, too, the remnant of 'score' counting in French with the 'quatre vingt' (80).
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Indeed Pinot. I'm learning how to say the time at the moment, which is the old system, so I'll end up learning both. :)
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I have been struggling to learn Welsh for years, struggling as I am bad at learning other languages,but love doing it. and still going to classes, and have been lucky enough to have made friends who still come to the same group. There are lots of books designed for learners, story books and I find that they are very good. I can send you some titles if you are interested. Can you not find a class near you . Look under Welsh for Adults. If you cannot manage classes they also run Sadwrn Siarads, a day of Welsh for all levels. They are great fun as you meet lots of people who are learning.These are run about four times a year.
Oh ,I also worry about using correct Welsh, but if you want to use Welsh out in the street , colloquial Welsh is more useful. Hywl
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I don't suppose there are any classes near me and I wouldn't want to attend one either- I have Asperger's and dislike being in groups so my main aim when I started was being able to communicate in writing. I may never actually speak it verbally, although you never know.
Please do tell me the titles, I'll have a look at those. It might be nice simply to have a book in Welsh!
Diolch
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When I was learning Irish my young cousins gave me their old story and reading books. The pictures helped a lot! I've also read some Italian picture books, although I've never learnt Italian.
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maes-e.com is a free Welsh-language forum which you can join fairly painlessly and is divided into various areas of discussion; I don't think it has a space specifically for learners, but I hope you might hit on a room that you would find suitable to your needs. You are free to wander around different rooms and read posts without committing yourself, but if, as I hope, you find somewhere that would suit you, then give it a go. Don't be shy and explain you're needs and you may be pleased. Anonymous and little trolling, no orthography rules.
Pob hwyl :)
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Diolch. I've saved that website; it is beyond my skill level at the moment :)
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I've just found this on YouTube:
www.youtube.com/user/HwbTV "Dal Ati" (it means "keep at it")
And other resources and links on the S4C site for this on:
www.s4c.cymru/dysgwyr
Even though you might not be able to understand much of what you hear to start off with, it might be helpful to hear the sound of it and start picking up the rhythm of the words. Also, what's great about the set of videos is that it has people from different areas of wales too.
Just found this site - just love it for its title:
http://clwbmalucachu.co.uk/cmc/ (archive of the materials) and http://clwbmalucachu.co.uk/
If you want to search in your area for welsh groups (they are all around the world), then you'd search for "Cymdeithas Cymraeg" or "Welsh Society"
Trystan