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General => Armed Forces => World War One => Topic started by: ALAMO2008 on Monday 30 January 17 13:00 GMT (UK)
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My Granddad Samuel Chapman Joined 4th Btn Territorial Force as Reg no. 196 embodied into Liverpool Kings Regt Reg. No.265015 on 05/08/14 posted to France March 1915
We knew he was awarded the MM in London Gazette Suppl 14/01/1918
as Cpl S Chapman (L'pool R)(Orrell)
Family Legend was it was action at The Battle of Passchendaele for saving an Officer under fire, but no one really knew.
Just recently a distant relative in possession of the MM found me on Ancestry made contact and provided a photo of his medals and a card with them, headed as follows:-
"55th West Lancashire Division"
"The name of 265015 Cpl S Chapman1/7th Liverpool Regt has been brought to my notice for gallant conduct on the 20th September 1917 at East of Ypres and a record has been made"
14th Oct 1917 H. S. Jeudwine
Major General Commanding 55th West Lancashire Division"
My question is, can anyone advise what action the 20th Sept 1917 was or could have been
and was it with the 55th West Lancs or 1/7th Liverpool Regt ?
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!/7th Kings (Liverpool Regiment) was one of the infantry units of 55th West Lancashire Division. The war diary for the battalion does record rthe operation carried out on 20 - 22 Sep 1917 in which they suffered a total of 242 casualties of which 5 officers and 64 men were killed or died of wounds. The diary has a brief narrative of the operation but does not mention specific instances. The battle was the battle of the Menin Road Ridge, part of the 3rd Battle of Ypres.
Just need to check the higher formation diaries, more later.
maxD
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I find no mention of the incident in any of the war diaries but all that means is it isn't in the diaries, not that it didn't happen!
While recommendations for gallantry medals are sometimes recorded in the diaries it is by no means unusual for it not to be. The Divisional level diary for October 1917 has Cpl Chapman on the long list of Military Medals awarded to men of the division.
Are you able to access the War Diary on Ancestry? If not you can download it here http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7354887. The dates have got a bit mixed up, the report of the 20/22 Sep action is at image 99. The area over which their action was fought is on the map here http://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/sidebyside.cfm#zoom=15&lat=50.8812&lon=2.9625&layers=101464639&right=BingHyb on which the names of the significant points mentioned in the account can be seen.
maxD
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The 55th Division's history, written by its senior chaplain, Rev.J.O.Coop, has several pages on this action. It is too much for me to retype here but if Alamo sends me a personal message with an email address I will scan relevant pages and send them on.
I believe that the book has been reissued by one of the current military publishers.
A
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Good spot Ainslie. The book can be accessed on line at http://lib.militaryarchive.co.uk/library/divisional-histories/library/The-Story-of-the-55th-West%20Lancashire-Division-1916-1919/HTML/index.asp#/1/
maxD
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Thanks Ainslie and Max D
brilliant quick response.
Have had a quick look at the online diary, didn't know such a thing existed.
Cheers both !
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If you're able to visit in person, the Jeudwine Papers in Liverpool Record Office (upstairs in the Central Library) contain many of the MM citations for 55 Division. The files you're looking for are coded as 356/FIF/6/6/18 (1-7) 'Immediate Awards, 165th Infantry 1/7th Liverpool Regiment'. You need to contact them a couple of days prior to visiting, as they won't bring items up from storage on the day. If you're not already a member of a Liverpool Library, bring two forms of identification with you. They have no objections to people photographing records provided you don't use a flash.
Edited to add: They also have the post-combat reports completed by every platoon, and some cases section, for the Third Battle of Ypres. He may get a mention and may even be the author of one- many of the medal recipients were asked to write a report of their deeds. The relevant files are 'Narratives of 'A' Company, 1/7th Battalion, the King's Liverpool Regiment 356/FIF/2/2/74'; for 'B' Company etc- 356/FIF/2/2/75, 'C' Company is 356/FIF/2/2/76 and 'D' Company is 356/FIF/2/2/77
I think the above are for 20 September (catalogue doesn't say) and the ones for 31 July are 356/FIF/2/2/12 all the way through to 356/FIF/2/2/19
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Brilliant -writer133 !
I travel back to Liverpool every 3 weeks from Aberystwyth, we stay at my Wife's Sister in Anfield area and they dump me at the Liverpool Archive Library on the Friday and Saturday where I spend 8 hrs each day researching my Liverpool Ancestry.
Will email Roger Hull the Archivist to have the above ready for me later this week,
now that I know they exist.
Here's hoping I find more on Granddad, will let you know .
Cheers
Alamo
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Brilliant -writer133 !
I travel back to Liverpool every 3 weeks from Aberystwyth, we stay at my Wife's Sister in Anfield area and they dump me at the Liverpool Archive Library on the Friday and Saturday where I spend 8 hrs each day researching my Liverpool Ancestry.
Will email Roger Hull the Archivist to have the above ready for me later this week,
now that I know they exist.
Here's hoping I find more on Granddad, will let you know .
Cheers
Alamo
Good luck and hope you find it. The surviving citations are far from complete, though there are a significant number in the archives. Unfortunately, the battalions' overall reports for the Battle of Menin Road Ridge are very sketchy, mainly because all four battalions from 165 Bde got mixed together almost from the start, which made it difficult for the officer writing the report to produce a blow by blow account. The individual platoon/section reports give much more detail of the actual fighting, many of the NCOs testifying that their squads were made up form mixed units- sometimes men from all four battalions.
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Sadly writer133 after 2 days of viewing the files you listed plus others they suggested .,No luck on my Granddads MM award.
But handled and read several reports of 1/7th action on 20 Sept 1917 Well worth the visit.
Cheers everyone.
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Sadly writer133 after 2 days of viewing the files you listed plus others they suggested .,No luck on my Granddads MM award.
That's a pity.