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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Aberdeenshire => Topic started by: Fogmoose on Sunday 29 January 17 15:47 GMT (UK)
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Hello to all, been away for a while but glad to be back! Hope everyone here at RC is well.
I know my GG Grandmother Miss Jane Hutcheon was living at Briar Cottage, Stuartfield by Mintlaw, in May of 1920 because she is listed as closest relative on my Grandfathers Canadian immigration papers.
I recently found a framed photo of a Stuartfield Street scene in my Grandparents things. (I posted the picture in the photo forum if you'd like to see it). Other than that I have very little success finding information about Jane Hutcheon.
I am 99% sure my G Grandfather Alexander Hutcheon Keith (or Keith Hutcheon depending on the source!) was illegitimate. I believe Jane Hutcheon's occupation was 'Sick Nurse'.
I am just getting back in the swing of things after being away from my research for half a year tending to family matters, so I'll have to re-acquaint myself with the stuff I have so far. But I thought it would do well to get some of the experts here to help.
I am most interested in finding any info about Jane or the area in Stuartfield where she lived, of course.
Thanks and lets hope 2017 is a better year than last for everyone!
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Hi, if you click on this link you'll be able to view old postcards of the village of Old Deer and it's local area.This includes Stuartfield.
www.olddeer.org.uk/
Regards,
flst
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There is a birth of Alexander Hutcheon Keith -
Alexander Hutcheon Keith - Male - 1900 - 168/2 1359 - St Machar
What birth year do you have for G. Grandfather ? When did he immigrate to Canada ?
Sandra
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There is a birth of Alexander Hutcheon Keith -
Alexander Hutcheon Keith - Male - 1900 - 168/2 1359 - St Machar
What birth year do you have for G. Grandfather ? When did he immigrate to Canada ?
Sandra
Seen that also and wondered ???
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Canada Ocean arrivals - Alexander Keith born 1871 - Turriff, Scotland - arriving 23 May 1920 - Liverpool to Quebec on the Minnedosa.
Aunt Mrs Mary Widduburn - Toronto - nearest relative Miss Jane Hutcheon - Briar Cottage - Stuartfield.
Sandra
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There is an Alexander Keith Hutcheon, b. 19 Nov 1870, Millbrex, Aberdeenshire to Jane Hutcheon - only the mother is named on the birth registration, which suggests he was, indeed, illegitimate, but the record on SP will confirm that.
This appears to be the family in 1871 in Millbrex:
Jane Fowlie, head, unmarried, 49, worsted knitter, New Deer
William Hutcheon, son, unmarried, 26, shoemaker, New Deer
Jane Hutcheon, daughter, unmarried, 19, dressmaker, New Deer
Alexander K Hutcheon, grandson, 4 months, Millbrex
And here is Jane with her family in 1861 in New Deer - it seems likely that Jane herself was also illegitimate, as her mother, Jean Fowlie is shown as unmarried.
Jean Greig, head, widow, 85, crofter’s widow, New Deer
Jean Fowlie, servant, unmarried, 38, sick nurse, New Deer
William Hutcheon, visitor, unmarried, 16, shoemaker apprentice, New Deer
Jean Hutcheon, boarder, 9, scholar, New Deer
I can then see Jane as a nurse in 1881, 1891 and 1901:
1881 at the Poor House in New Deer - I suspect this is her, despite her place of birth being Monquhitter and not New Deer as in the other censuses:
Jane Hutcheon, field worker, aged 29, Monquhitter
1891 at Buchan Poorhouse, New Deer
Jane Hutcheon, nurse, aged 38, New Deer
1901 at Old Deer Hospital
Jane Hutcheon, nurse, aged 49, New Deer
Ruth
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And there is also a marriage for a Alexander Keith Hutcheon to Maggie Jane Young 1900 Aberdeen
Rosie
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Is this the family in Toronto 1921
Alexander Keith 50 Maggie Keith 38
Alexander Keith 21 Norval Keith 18
Ruth Keith 15 William Keith 14
Maggie Keith 8 John Keith 2
Noticed a border crossing for the same family.
Sandra
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I would say that is the correct family going by the census information ruthhelen has posted
Rosie
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U.S., Border Crossings from Canada to U.S., 1825-1960 - Port of Arrival: Niagara Falls, New York - 24 June 1922 - Margaret 38 years. Norval 20 years - Ruth 16 years - William 11 years - Margaret 5 years and John 3 years - going to aunt Mrs Maxwell - 86 Strathcona Ave. Toronto.
Sandra
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Presume you have the Canadian/USA end covered but let us know if you need more.
Samnra
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This looks like them in the 1901 census 21 Justice Mill Lane Aberdeen
Alex H Keith b Monquitter Aberdeen age 30 dairy carter
Maggie Jane Keith age 17 born Aberdeen
Alex H Keith age 8 months born Aberdeen
Rosie
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Looks like Jean/Jane Fowlie might have been the daughter of the Jean/Jane Greig, widow, she is with in the 1861 census in New Deer. In 1851, the family are at Auchmunziel, New Deer:
William Greig, 79, head
Jean Greig, 76 wife
Jean Fowlie, unmarried, 28, daughter in law
William Hutcheon, 7, grandson
Alexander Hutcheon, 4, grandson
‘Daughter in law’ in this case probably means step-daughter - which either means Jean Fowlie was also illegitimate, or she was the daughter of her mother’s previous marriage.
There are baptisms recorded for both William Hutcheon and Alexander Hutcheon in New Deer - the father is named as Alexander Hutcheon in both cases. A look at one of the records will confirm whether they were legitimate or not, but it seems unlikely given their mother’s unmarried status.
Jean Fowlie appears as a servant at Auchmunziel in 1841, aged 20 - next door to her parent's farm. There is an Alexander Hutcheon, farm servant, aged 15 also present, who is presumably the same Alexander Hutcheon who fathered her children.
Ruth
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In order to save you any more duplication please see this previous post! I note Sandra uncovered a lot of information back then.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=637530.0
flst
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In order to save you any more duplication please see this previous post! I note Sandra uncovered a lot of information back then.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=637530.0
flst
Thanks for the reminder - must admit it was feeling a little familiar - ;)
Sandra
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Yes, Ruth that is the birth I have for G Grandpa Alexander. I had not however found the family you found, so that helps a lot. So Jane had a brother William Hutcheon B. ~1845 in New Deer apparently.
If its the same Jane Hutcheon, and I think it likely, she lived until 1944. Found her DC aged 94!
*
Image removed due to copyright reasons.
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Yes, Sorry Sandra, I have most of the Canadian and US stuff for descendants. Mainly interested in earlier Scotland family. Thanks!
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Wow, Ruth, thats a lot of good stuff! Thanks so much.
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Hmm - if that is Jane Hutcheon's death registration, then she looks to have had at least one more child - her death has been registered by 'D Hutcheon, son'. Interestingly, there is a Donald Hutcheon, aged 11, with Jane in the 1891 census - and also an Alfred Hutcheon, 8, and a George Hutcheon, 2 - although they are all just classed as 'inmates' of the Poor House, so impossible to know if there is any relationship.
I can't see obvious births for any of these children on SP - they're all recorded in the census as being born in New Deer, but there aren't any good matches leaping out at me, so their place of birth may have been recorded incorrectly by the poorhouse. Worth following up though - quite a lot of illegitimate children though, if they are all Jane's :o
Ruth
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Donald makes sense, since my Grandma used to correspond with an Uncle Donald back in Scotland. Do you think its worth looking for work records for Jane at any of those hospitals? Would they have them and would they contain anything of value?
And yes, with all these illegitimate children its no wonder my Grandmother never wanted to talk about her or her husbands family!
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The link below takes you to a site about poorhouses. You'll find lots of useful information on them. It appears that the Hutcheons were residents (and not staff) of the Buchan Combination Poorhouse. This is actually good news if the admission rolls remain for the period you are interested in. The admission rolls will contain information on them not available elsewhere. On the home page you will find a link to the Archivist. Request by email can be made :)
http://www.workhouses.org.uk/Buchan/Buchan1881.shtml
flst
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Well that's good news....not that I'm happy to see my ancestors in the poorhouse (these would be the first Iv'e found in such circumstances) but at least good that information might be available. I'll check that out ASAP!
Thanks flst!
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Is it possible they weren't all her biological children? With all those years spent in workhouses and hospitals (as a nurse) I would assume she had contact with many of the most desperate. Mothers who perhaps died leaving young children with no relatives to take care of them. Could she have informally adopted one or more? Did that occur in those days?
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I think it's very unlikely. There was a very high rate of illegitimate children in the North East of Scotland. The easiest way to find out if they are her children is to search on scotlandspeople for their birth certificates.
One of my own ancestors had several children, all with their (different) father's surnames :)
flst
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OK the plot thickens...took me a while to figure out my login stuff for the new SP web-sight (which by the way I think stinks compared to the old), but after I finally got on and accessed my credits....did some searching and found all the children in the 1891 census . All born in New Deer, with the surname Hutche(s)on! All illegitimate with mother Jane Hutcheson. So that makes 4 illegitimate so far....must be some kind of record!
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So that makes 4 illegitimate so far....must be some kind of record!
She has some way to go to catch up with one of mine who had 10 children to 8 different fathers. However she did marry one of them and 3 of the children were his, so that's only 7 illegitimate ones by 7 different fathers.
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So that makes 4 illegitimate so far....must be some kind of record!
She has some way to go to catch up with one of mine who had 10 children to 8 different fathers. However she did marry one of them and 3 of the children were his, so that's only 7 illegitimate ones by 7 different fathers.
Wow. I guess it isn't an exaggeration to say that Northeast Scotland had a lot of illegitimate children in the 19th century.... ;-)
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Wow. I guess it isn't an exaggeration to say that Northeast Scotland had a lot of illegitimate children in the 19th century.... ;-)
No, it isn't.
I don't have it to hand, but in T C Smout's A Century of the Scottish People there is a chapter about this among other matters. If I recall the figures correctly, the authorities were horrified to find, after the first year of statutory civil registration in 1855, that 19% of births in Banffshire were out of wedlock, and a significant further number of babies was born a less than decorous interval after their parents' weddings. The corresponding figure in Ross-shire was about 2%, and there have been lots of attempts to explain this large disparity.
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OK time for updates re: GG Grandma (what a woman.... 5 illegitimate children and counting!). I have found new evidence that leads me to believe with near certainty that Jane Hutcheon (also spelled Hutcheson or Hutchison) is indeed the same person on the 1944 DC, and that her son Donald Forsyth Hutchison, B. 1878, had an older sister Johan Forsyth Hutchison B. 1876, most likely to the same father. As in the case of my G Grandfather and the other half-siblings, in each case found so far the father's surname is used as the child's middle name (thanks for that G Grandma!). I found a death for a Donald Forsyth in 1961, so he was by that time using his fathers surname ....the same as my G Grandfather had done. The reason I can say this all with near certainty is I have found only two photos of GG Grandma. One is a photo of her and her Grandson (My G Grandad) aged about 8 years old. Not of much use. But the second makes up for it. It shows two woman and two men, and on the back it says "gram aged 84. august 1935 Donald Grandma Johan & Husband". Donald I now know is the uncle whom my Grandmother corresponded with back in Scotland (he would periodically send her heather), however I never realized that Johan was a girls name... a variant spelling of Jo-Anne...stupid me. So now back to work to see if I can find a marriage for Johan! What an amazing journey family history is!
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I never realized that Johan was a girls name... a variant spelling of Jo-Anne
I think you will find that Johan and Johanna both have a far longer history than Jo-Anne or any other double given name with a hyphen in the middle. All of these, plus Joanne and Joanna, are variants of Joan, and Joan is one of the feminine versions of John, along with the much commoner Jane, Jean and Janet.
See www.whatsinaname.net
A quick search on SP finds
34 references to Johan* in the 1500s, plus one to Joann*
43 in the 1600s plus 863 to Joann*
1034 in the 1700s, plus 1115 to Joann*
40,678 in the 1800s but just 1 reference to Jo-An* (which looks like your Johan Forsyth, aged 14, in the 1891 census in Methlick but recorded as Jo-Anna!) plus 25,693 to Joann*
47,400 in the 1900s but just 509 references to Jo-An*, plus 40,424 to Joann*
4876 in the 2000s so far but just 390 references to Jo-An*, plus 15,850 to Joann*
So it looks as if the insertion of the hyphen is very much a relatively recent fashion compared with the use of the h or the name without the hyphen.
Note that most of the earliest Johan* references will be to males, because John is often recorded in its Latin version as Johannes in early documents, and it's not possible to tell from the indexes to births and deaths whether Johan* is male or female without using gender as a search parameter, which is not available in the "quick search" on SP.
I have known several women and girls named Johan, especially in the Highlands.
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Looks like Jean/Jane Fowlie might have been the daughter of the Jean/Jane Greig, widow, she is with in the 1861 census in New Deer. In 1851, the family are at Auchmunziel, New Deer:
William Greig, 79, head
Jean Greig, 76 wife
Jean Fowlie, unmarried, 28, daughter in law
William Hutcheon, 7, grandson
Alexander Hutcheon, 4, grandson
‘Daughter in law’ in this case probably means step-daughter - which either means Jean Fowlie was also illegitimate, or she was the daughter of her mother’s previous marriage.
There are baptisms recorded for both William Hutcheon and Alexander Hutcheon in New Deer - the father is named as Alexander Hutcheon in both cases. A look at one of the records will confirm whether they were legitimate or not, but it seems unlikely given their mother’s unmarried status.
Jean Fowlie appears as a servant at Auchmunziel in 1841, aged 20 - next door to her parent's farm. There is an Alexander Hutcheon, farm servant, aged 15 also present, who is presumably the same Alexander Hutcheon who fathered her children.
Ruth
Ruth, where are you seeing Jean Fowlie and Alexander Hutcheon at Auchmunziel in 1841? The only ones I can find are not the ones you mention. The only Jane Fowlie age 20 I see is at Oldmaud with her (presumed) husband John, a Crofter.
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OK I found it.... Jane Fowler, age 20 F. S does that mean Farm Servant?
and Alexander Hutchon, 15 M.S Man Servant? is that what that stands for?
what evidence do you see that her parents farm is next door?
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I searched & found them on freecen. Janes parents are on the previous page. SCT1841/225 Folio 1 page 10. Their surname is spelled as Grieg.
flst
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FS = female servant
MS =male servant
flst
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OK Got it, FreeCEN is great....and Free!
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Can anyone venture a guess as to why Jean Fowlie and her son would be listed as Daughter-in-Law and Grandson, respectively, in the 1851 census; and then as Servant and Visitor in the 1861? I see that sometime during that ten year span, William Greig had died. Since William was listed as the sponsor on another of Jean Fowlie's (Illegitimate!) baptisms (see http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=764843.0 ), would it be fair to assume that Jean Fowlie had a connection to William Greig and NOT Jean Greig? Perhaps from a prior marriage? But then why would she not have the same last name, unless she was also illegitimate and Mr. Greig did not legally admit parentage? Further evidence is that Jean Greig died the next year (1862) and her death was registered by a cousin and NOT by Jean Fowlie.
Any help would be appreciated...
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Update: Found William Greig's DC from 1855. Lots of Info, but wife's name is listed as Elizabeth not Jean. Is Jean a diminutive of Elizabeth? Only one daughter listed, named Elspet stated age of 43. Was it common to not list illegitimate children on DC's? I would think it would be!
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Can anyone venture a guess as to why Jean Fowlie and her son would be listed as Daughter-in-Law and Grandson, respectively, in the 1851 census; and then as Servant and Visitor in the 1861?
Because the term 'daughter-in-law' is sometimes used where we would now use 'stepdaughter' (as Ruthhelen has already pointed out)?
would it be fair to assume that Jean Fowlie had a connection to William Greig and NOT Jean Greig?
Not necessarily.
Further evidence is that Jean Greig died the next year (1862) and her death was registered by a cousin and NOT by Jean Fowlie.
I wouldn't make any assumptions based on that. Maybe Jean Fowlie was working away from home and the death had to be registered before she had time to get back to do so.
Is Jean a diminutive of Elizabeth?
No.
Was it common to not list illegitimate children on DCs?
Listing of children on DCs only occurred in 1855 and not in any other year.
Any help would be appreciated...
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Update: Found William Greig's DC from 1855. Lots of Info, but wife's name is listed as Elizabeth not Jean. Is Jean a diminutive of Elizabeth? Only one daughter listed, named Elspet stated age of 43. Was it common to not list illegitimate children on DC's? I would think it would be!
I think that's the wrong William Greig you have there - the 1855 death is registered in Old Deer, not New Deer. There is a William Greig, widower, aged 72 in West Street, Stuartfield, Old Deer in the 1851 census - he has a daughter named Elspet living with him.
I think your William Greig must have died before 1855.
Ruth
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Can anyone venture a guess as to why Jean Fowlie and her son would be listed as Daughter-in-Law and Grandson, respectively, in the 1851 census; and then as Servant and Visitor in the 1861?
Because the term 'daughter-in-law' is sometimes used where we would now use 'stepdaughter' (as Ruthhelen has already pointed out)?
I was aware of that. The question I was asking, is why the person was NOT listed as D-I-L on the later census, and if this might have to do with connections to the deceased William Greig as opposed to Jean Greig (MS Yeats). Apparently I answered my own question. Yes it could.
Yes Ruth, it appears you may be right and thats NOT William Grieg's correct DC. Too Bad because theres a wealth of information on the 1855 certificates.
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Can anyone venture a guess as to why Jean Fowlie and her son would be listed as Daughter-in-Law and Grandson, respectively, in the 1851 census; and then as Servant and Visitor in the 1861?
It's not uncommon. My great grandfather, in 1851 was a boarder, and in 1861, a son-in-law of his stepfather :)
flst
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I'll check that out ASAP
Thanks flst!
Just to let you know you can also ask the archivist to check the poor relief records for New Deer. In 1861 census Jean Greig appears as a pauper. There's a good chance you'll find out more about her :)
flst
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I have a (perhaps wild) theory that Jean/Jane Fowlie may actually have been the granddaughter (or other relative) of William Greig, who he adopted, and not related to Jane/Jean Greig (nee Yeats) at all.
Jane Fowlie died in 1873 in Methlick, where she is noted as being a sick nurse, unmarried and illegitimate. Her reputed father is one Thomas Fowlie, crofter, and her mother is noted as ‘? Greig, afterwards married to ? Ferguson, shoemaker’. And just to add to the intrigue, her death was registered by one Alexander Hutcheon, undertaker in New Deer - no relationship given... :o
Now, a Christian Greig married an Andrew Ferguson in New Deer in 1827 - which was after the birth of Jane Fowlie who, if her age at death is to be believed, was born about 1823. Unfortunately, I can’t find any trace of Andrew Ferguson or Christian Greig after that.
Back to William Greig - he married Jane Yeats in New Deer in 1816 - which would have made him about 46 (and her 41) - old for a first marriage, so it’s perfectly possible he was married previously. Unfortunately, I can’t find any obvious previous marriage, or a birth for Christian Greig, so this remains, alas, only a theory… ::)
Ruth
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Wow Ruth, you are something else. I hadn't found Jane's DC yet...that helps a lot. Could it have been the same Alexander Hutcheon who fathered 3 children with her? And that certainly makes sense that she was not related to Jane Yeats at all. I had thought that the ages at marriage for Jane Yeats and William Greig were late....so indeed will have to look for children of William from an earlier marriage or illegitimate. So maybe three generations of illegitimate daughters in New Deer? Lots more than "crofting" going on up there!
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The Alexander Hutcheon who registered Jane's death could also be her son. Though why it wouldn't state that on the certificate is funny.
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The Alexander Hutcheon who registered Jane's death could also be her son. Though why it wouldn't state that on the certificate is funny.
No, I don't think so - I think it likely he is the same Alexander Hutcheon who fathered Jane's children. He signed the register as 'Alexander Hutcheon, undertaker, Cairnbanno, New Deer'. If you look at the New Deer census for 1871, there is an Alexander Hutcheon, carpenter, aged 47 at Cairnbanno - that makes him far too old to be Jane's son, but around the right age to be the same Alexander Hutcheon who is with her, aged 15, in the 1841 census at Auchmunziel, New Deer.
Interestingly, he seems to have remained unmarried - which does make you wonder what prevented him and Jane marrying, and thereby legitimising their children ???
Ruth
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Interestingly, he seems to have remained unmarried - which does make you wonder what prevented him and Jane marrying, and thereby legitimising their children ???
Well, the story of Alexander Hutcheon, carpenter and undertaker, does carry on it seems… He fathered another illegitimate son, Andrew, in 1865 - registered as Andrew Milne by the child's mother Barbara. However, this time Alexander did marry the child’s mother - he and Barbara Milne married in 1876 in New Deer.
Alexander Hutcheon died in 1902 in New Deer. He was the son of John Hutcheon and Agnes Forsyth, baptised on 4 April 1827 in Monquhitter. He had two sisters that I’ve managed to find so far. He’s living with his elder sister Helen at Mill of Greens in Monquhitter in 1861 - she married the miller, William Paterson.
I do love it when loose ends get tidied up ;D
Ruth
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Interestingly, he seems to have remained unmarried - which does make you wonder what prevented him and Jane marrying, and thereby legitimising their children ???
Well, the story of Alexander Hutcheon, carpenter and undertaker, does carry on it seems… He fathered another illegitimate son, Andrew, in 1865 - registered as Andrew Milne by the child's mother Barbara. However, this time Alexander did marry the child’s mother - he and Barbara Milne married in 1876 in New Deer.
Alexander Hutcheon died in 1902 in New Deer. He was the son of John Hutcheon and Agnes Forsyth, baptised on 4 April 1827 in Monquhitter. He had two sisters that I’ve managed to find so far. He’s living with his elder sister Helen at Mill of Greens in Monquhitter in 1861 - she married the miller, William Paterson.
I do love it when loose ends get tidied up ;D
Ruth
I love how you said the loose ends get tidied up, as opposed to 'tied up'! Because we know they almost never get truly "tied up" in Genealogy!
Interesting how he was a carpenter ( as I am!) and yet is listed as undertaker. Perhaps he made the coffin for Jane's burial? It was the least he could do after fathering 3 children with her....I see her death was from an outbreak of Scarlet Fever, which killed at least one other person (the child listed beneath her on that registration page) whom perhaps she was nursing when she caught it? Perhaps she and Alexander would have married if she had lived. As to Jane's parentage, the only Thomas Fowlie (spelled Foulie) I could find was in Old Deer in 1841 with his wife and 2 young children. Occupation is farmer, and age is 60. So that could be her father, but need to do more research. Still looking for anything on Ferguson/Greig. But it's interesting that Jane's son William's occupation is Shoemaker Apprentice/Shoemaker in 1861/71 census so perhaps he was employed by his Grandfather or his Uncle? Bears more looking into....
Thank you so much for your help. I have found out so much more than I had expected on this line....with all the illegitimacy I never expected this much! It certainly helped that everyone stayed relatively in the same places, and the fact that the father's surname was used as the middle name in nearly every case helps a great deal. On my other Maternal line this didn't happen and caused a brick wall that I have been unable to breach as of yet.
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But it's interesting that Jane's son William's occupation is Shoemaker Apprentice/Shoemaker in 1861/71 census so perhaps he was employed by his Grandfather or his Uncle? Bears more looking into....
He seems to have lost interest in shoemaking - by 1877, he's a railway signalman in Midlothian and calling himself William Greig Hutcheon. He married Annie Grieg (still trying to establish if they are related...) in Dalkeith and died in Lasswade, Midlothian in 1929. He and Annie had five children that I've found so far: Elizabeth Syme Hutcheon, Jane Fowlie Hutcheon, Annie Greig Hutcheon, Williamina Greig Hutcheon and John Mair Hutcheon.
Ruth
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Not wishing to add to the confusion, but I think your Jane/Jean Hutcheon may have had another illegitimate child... :o There is a William Hutcheon, aged 6 with her in the poor house in 1881. This William Hutcheon was born in 1874 in Millbrex to Jane Hutcheon, domestic servant. She successfully filed a paternity suit in 1876 against the child’s father, Jonathan Marnoch, farm servant at Haddo House, Methlick.
She presumably didn't get any money out of him, otherwise she and William wouldn't have been in the poor house in 1881, I guess ::) Can't find any trace of William after that though...
Ruth
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Interesting how he was a carpenter ( as I am!) and yet is listed as undertaker.
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Fogmoose, it was common here in the north East for local carpenter to also be the undertaker.
flst
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But it's interesting that Jane's son William's occupation is Shoemaker Apprentice/Shoemaker in 1861/71 census so perhaps he was employed by his Grandfather or his Uncle? Bears more looking into....
He seems to have lost interest in shoemaking - by 1877, he's a railway signalman in Midlothian and calling himself William Greig Hutcheon. He married Annie Grieg (still trying to establish if they are related...) in Dalkeith and died in Lasswade, Midlothian in 1929. He and Annie had five children that I've found so far: Elizabeth Syme Hutcheon, Jane Fowlie Hutcheon, Annie Greig Hutcheon, Williamina Greig Hutcheon and John Mair Hutcheon.
Ruth
Yes I had seen the 1881 census where he had moved nearby to Edinburgh, but had not had a chance to go any farther. Annie his wife was listed as being born in Fife. I suppose there was less and less need for shoemaking towards the beginning of the 20th century.
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Interesting how he was a carpenter ( as I am!) and yet is listed as undertaker.
Fogmoose, it was common here in the north East for local carpenter to also be the undertaker.
flst
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Really? I would never have known that! Thank you. I wonder why?
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Not wishing to add to the confusion, but I think your Jane/Jean Hutcheon may have had another illegitimate child... :o There is a William Hutcheon, aged 6 with her in the poor house in 1881. This William Hutcheon was born in 1874 in Millbrex to Jane Hutcheon, domestic servant. She successfully filed a paternity suit in 1876 against the child’s father, Jonathan Marnoch, farm servant at Haddo House, Methlick.
She presumably didn't get any money out of him, otherwise she and William wouldn't have been in the poor house in 1881, I guess ::) Can't find any trace of William after that though...
Ruth
So this William Hutcheon, nephew of William Greig Hutcheon, makes 6 illegitimate so far for Jane. The record must be within reach! And she lived to be over 90! Maybe marriage DOES kill you!
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A carpenter has the obvious skills for making a coffin. In rural areas there wouldn't be enough demand for someone to be solely an undertaker.
flst
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A carpenter has the obvious skills for making a coffin. In rural areas there wouldn't be enough demand for someone to be solely an undertaker.
flst
Thats what I was thinking. So it wouldn't necessarily entail any preparation of the body itself for burial, as we associate with undertaking today? I suppose that part was mostly done by the family, especially in rural areas?
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Just to let you know you can also ask the archivist to check the poor relief records for New Deer. In 1861 census Jean Greig appears as a pauper. There's a good chance you'll find out more about her :)
flst
Yes, Thats a good idea flst. Might get some clarifying info on the relationship that way. Still haven't heard back from my inquiry about Jane Hutcheon in Buchan poorhouse, but hopefully if I do I will follow up with a query about New Deer records as well.
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I have a (perhaps wild) theory that Jean/Jane Fowlie may actually have been the granddaughter (or other relative) of William Greig, who he adopted, and not related to Jane/Jean Greig (nee Yeats) at all.
Jane Fowlie died in 1873 in Methlick, where she is noted as being a sick nurse, unmarried and illegitimate. Her reputed father is one Thomas Fowlie, crofter, and her mother is noted as ‘? Greig, afterwards married to ? Ferguson, shoemaker’. And just to add to the intrigue, her death was registered by one Alexander Hutcheon, undertaker in New Deer - no relationship given... :o
Now, a Christian Greig married an Andrew Ferguson in New Deer in 1827 - which was after the birth of Jane Fowlie who, if her age at death is to be believed, was born about 1823. Unfortunately, I can’t find any trace of Andrew Ferguson or Christian Greig after that.
Back to William Greig - he married Jane Yeats in New Deer in 1816 - which would have made him about 46 (and her 41) - old for a first marriage, so it’s perfectly possible he was married previously. Unfortunately, I can’t find any obvious previous marriage, or a birth for Christian Greig, so this remains, alas, only a theory… ::)
Ruth
Have found several possible births for Christian Greig, closest one geographically is to a George Greig in Lonmay in 1808, no mothers name listed. Another to Alexander Grieg and Christian Leslie, 1807 in King Edward, which is also fairly close to New Deer. There are also two with Fathers named William Greig, but they are farther away though still in Aberdeenshire, one in New Machar and one in Old Machar. Need to keep searching.
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If you click on this link you will learn more about the Old Parish Records.
https://www.nrscotland.gov.uk/research/guides/old-parish-registers/list-of-old-parish-registers
There is a strong possibility that you may never find the information you seek. You cannot assume that because a person has the same name & year of birth that it is your ancestor.
flst
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If you click on this link you will learn more about the Old Parish Records.
https://www.nrscotland.gov.uk/research/guides/old-parish-registers/list-of-old-parish-registers
There is a strong possibility that you may never find the information you seek. You cannot assume that because a person has the same name & year of birth that it is your ancestor.
flst
Yes, I do realize that. I didn't mean to sound as if I was. I know that some records/people just can't be found or don't exist.
BTW heard back from the Archivist re: Buchan Poorhouse records. Sadly, the register from 1869-1912 did not survive. She found no listing for Jane Hutcheon in the records after 1912 either. She gave me a few links to follow in case the application for poor relief survives, which I will follow up on.
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So now back to work to see if I can find a marriage for Johan!
Did you find out what happened to Johan Forsyth Hutcheon? I think I have her in 1881 in Methlick, with her paternal grandparents, John and Helen Forsyth (nee Porter) - she’s been enumerated as Jane, but I’m pretty sure it’s her - she’s with them again in 1891, enumerated this time as Joanna.
Looks like she married James Nicol in 1899 in Methlick - by this time she’s going by the name of Joan Forsyth, so she’s dropped the middle ‘h’ ;D Her reputed father is named on the marriage register as John Forsyth, shepherd; mother, Jane Hutcheon, hospital matron. I can see the family in Udny in 1901 with two children: Jane Gray Nicol and Helen Nicol (Jane Gray was James Nicol’s mother). There’s a death of a Johan Forsyth Nicol or Hutcheon in 1957 in Aberdeen.
And the father, John Forsyth - presumably also the father of Donald Forsyth Hutcheon - he went on to marry Margaret Barclay in 1880 in Aberdour. They had eight children that I've found so far...
Ruth
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I found a death for a Donald Forsyth in 1961, so he was by that time using his fathers surname ....the same as my G Grandfather had done.
Have you confirmed that this is the correct Donald Forsyth? There is a death in 1972 in Inverurie of a Donald Forsyth Hutcheson of the correct age. The Donald Forsyth who died in New Pitsligo in 1961 isn't old enough to be your Donald Forsyth Hutcheon - but he is, curiously, the correct age to be the son of John Forsyth (Donald Forsyth Hutcheon's presumed father) and Margaret Barclay - this Donald Forsyth was born in about 1887...
Ruth
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Ruth you are a wonder! I did not see the later death Donald Forsyth Hutcheson...but what you say makes sense. I suppose I will have to order the DC for that one to confirm. And no I hadn't gotten around to any further research on Johan (boss has been very sick for a few weeks so I am working A LOT!) but again thats very useful information. Hopefully I can eventually contact some of these distant half-cousins since there appear to be a lot of them.... ;-)
Jane sure must have had a great 'bed-side manner', LOL
I think I may have to inquire re: some of the hospitals where we know Jane worked...perhaps there are employee records? I still havent found Jane in the 1911 census....in fact I am going to go search a little more as soon as I finish typing this!
Thanks so much!
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You are correct Ruth. The 1961 Donald Forsyth is indeed the son of John Forsyth and Margaret Barclay. Which means that the 1972 Donald is almost certainly my Half- G Uncle.
And I found Jane in the 1911 census! Sadly, it is not of much use. She is visiting a family in Strichen, a William and Christina Simpson and their teen daughter. Her occupation is Sick Nurse, place of birth New Deer, but sadly thats all the information given. Really a pity that the later census returns are not available.
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As if things were not confusing enough....there appears to be another Jean Hutcheon living in New Deer, and she too is listed as a Nurse (at least in the 1871 census)! Her age is listed as 14 in 1871, making her very close in age to my Jane Hutcheon. Why can't things ever be simple?!
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As if things were not confusing enough....there appears to be another Jean Hutcheon living in New Deer, and she too is listed as a Nurse (at least in the 1871 census)! Her age is listed as 14 in 1871, making her very close in age to my Jane Hutcheon. Why can't things ever be simple?!
Wouldn't be as interesting if it were too simple!
I wonder of this could be a double listing of the same individual? It does happen occasionally, when people don't read the instructions properly. Maybe Jean was staying overnight somewhere on census night, but someone where she normally lived didn't realise they weren't supposed to list her in her normal residence? Does the possible other one occur in any other census?
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As if things were not confusing enough....there appears to be another Jean Hutcheon living in New Deer, and she too is listed as a Nurse (at least in the 1871 census)! Her age is listed as 14 in 1871, making her very close in age to my Jane Hutcheon. Why can't things ever be simple?!
Wouldn't be as interesting if it were too simple!
I wonder of this could be a double listing of the same individual? It does happen occasionally, when people don't read the instructions properly. Maybe Jean was staying overnight somewhere on census night, but someone where she normally lived didn't realise they weren't supposed to list her in her normal residence? Does the possible other one occur in any other census?
Have'nt had a chance to check yet, but seems unlikely. My Jane is listed in the 1871 census at home with her Mother, brother and 4 month old son. What I am concerned about is confusing her with this other Jean/Jane on later records. There appears to be a 5 year difference in age on the 1871 census. Also, the other younger Jean is listed as having been born in Tyrie...will do some further research over the weekend....crazy busy the next few days. Take care forfarian!
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She gave me a few links to follow in case the application for poor relief survives, which I will follow up on.
Have you followed up on the application for poor relief records yet?
I think I may have to inquire re: some of the hospitals where we know Jane worked...perhaps there are employee records?
The archivist you contacted re the Buchan Poorhouse is also the one to contact regarding any hospital records.
flst
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She gave me a few links to follow in case the application for poor relief survives, which I will follow up on.
Have you followed up on the application for poor relief records yet?
I think I may have to inquire re: some of the hospitals where we know Jane worked...perhaps there are employee records?
The archivist you contacted re the Buchan Poorhouse is also the one to contact regarding any hospital records.
flst
Yes, she has been very helpful so far. She was unable to find anything in the register of attendants, and the registry from that time period did not survive.
However, she had a look through the 'Registry of Offences' for the Buchan Comb. Poorhouse, and sure enough, my Jane is listed (twice!) as well as three of her children and her Baby-Daddy, Alfred Dalgar(d)no! Offences were things such as being insolent to the Governor, arguing with other inmates, and for the children staying out after curfew and running about on Sundays! Only the offenders ages and the date of the offense are given, but at least it proves that she and the children were residents of the poorhouse from at least 1st July 1879 until the census of 1891.
Fiona (the Archivist) also said that this was very unusual, since very few people stayed in the poorhouse for such a long time. The relevant parochial board would eventually refuse to pay!
Now this is my thinking, perhaps she was a sort of In-Between inmate, in that she was useful as a Nurse so they let her stay in return for her services? Someone with more knowledge of the poorhouses will have to weigh in on this theory.
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Fiona at NHS Grampian archives has discovered more re: Jane and Alexander. Very salacious stuff! ;-)
"I've had a look through the minutes of the poorhouse board, which contain information on how much was being spent on food, making alterations to the building, and recording the reports of visits from the Board of Supervision for the Poor and the Lunacy Commission, who looked at conditions in the lunatic wards.
It is in one of these reports from the Board of Supervision that a hint is given. The visits took place annually in October, and the Buchan Combination Poorhouse Board recorded them at their annual meeting in February. At their meeting of February 1882 the Board of Supervision's report from October 1881 was recorded, and it contained some details to which the Governor responded. One of these was to do with the length of time inmates were kept in a solitary cell for punishment, and the Board of Supervision stated that this was not to exceed more than 12 hours at a time. The Governor responded thus:
"During the 6 and a half years I have been here I find one inmate has been in the cell for 8 hours, one 10 and one 13 and a half hours. The last named was Alexander Dalgarno aged 35 years. The facts of the case are these - the Doctor and Matron repeatedly complained of his insolence, I warned him that if it was not discontinued he would be punished. He defied me, and I told him he would get no supper. He attempted to strike me with one of the old men's walking sticks and after I had the stick from him I had some difficulty in saving myself from not only his fists but his feet and teeth. In going to the cell he struck the attendant a blow which bled his nose. He was in the cell from 6pm until 7.30am. In addition to his clothes he had the whole of his bed clothes, mattress and pillow."
So, that explains why Alexander Dalgarno appears in the Register of Offences! But yet there's more. After the Governor's report explaining what had happened, there is another entry.
"The Governor reported the case of Jane Hutcheon who had lately given birth to an illegitimate child in the House whereof she accused as the father the man Dalgarno who is referred to above. The Governor had previously reported the case to the Board of Supervision from whom a letter was read wherein it was stated that there must be some defect in the arrangements as to the separation of the sexes. The Committee having examined the woman and made other enquiry find that all precautions have been taken for the separation of the sexes but regret that it is beyond their power to keep them from meeting occasionally."
And so there it is - proof that Jane is saying Alexander Dalgarno is the father of her child. I scoured the minutes to see if I could find anything else about the case, but there were no other references to it, which is a pity. However, there may be something in the Board of Supervision records which are held at the National Records of Scotland...."
I have sent an inquiry to NRS so hopefully they will follow up with me. I'm hoping against hope that perhaps Jane's application for poor relief somehow ended up with those records...or at least some further information on her case.
I also would be inclined to think that given the character of Alexander outlined in these passages, perhaps Jane's dalliance with him was not consensual? Its certainly a possibility, but the fact that she appears to have had a proclivity for this type of thing (to say the least!) would tend to discount that being the case. Any input is welcome!
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What a great find!
flst
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Yes indeed - what a find - it brings it all to life :o
Have you followed the child of this elicit relationship - Alfred Dalgarno Hutcheon?
I think I have him in 1901, going by the name of Alfred H Dalgarno, as an agricultural labourer on a farm in Old Deer.
He next shows up as Alfred Hutcheon in 1906 in Edinburgh, where he marries Mary Ann Broadfoot (b. 9 Apr 1886, Kirkmabreck, Kirkcubrightshire - d. 2 Jan 1951, Musselburgh, Midlothian). I can’t seem to find the marriage entry, but Alfred and Mary Ann had a daughter - Mary Jane Hutcheon - in 1915 in Musselburgh, Midlothian, and their wedding date is noted as 17 May 1906 in Edinburgh.
Between 1901 and 1915 Alfred must have joined the army, as he is listed on the birth register of his daughter as a Private in the Gordon Highlanders. He went to France in May 1915, just after his daughter was born. After leaving the army, he looks to have become a coal miner, and died in Musselburgh in 1960.
I don’t know whether Alfred and Mary Ann had any other children, but their daughter Mary Jane Hutcheon married Alexander Anderson in 1940 in Cockenzie, East Lothian - she registered her father’s death in 1960.
Ruth
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Great work as always, Ruth!
I hadn't had a chance yet to go forward, as I was going backward first. I have found Alexander Dalgardno's family in the 1871, 1861, 1851 and 1841 census. All in Fraserburgh; his father Joseph is a Pilot / later a Fisherman. His mother is Anne Robertson; His parents were married in 1825 in Rathen, where his father was born circa 1807. I can find two brothers and a sister's birth but nothing for Joseph. His parents appear to be James and Anne Lawrence. I think I found his fathers death in St. Machar in 1900, age listed as 87 which has to be wrong unless he was 12 years old when married! Ages are all over the place in the different censuses for Joseph and Alexander, which is not unusual I know.
Alexander had at least 6 or 7 siblings, births going back as far as 1828. Only three in the OPR though, and nothing for Alexander, best I can guess he was born sometime around 1845.
Thanks for the help again Ruth!
Quite a story! Who needs Hollywood movies when we have family history!
;-)
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His parents appear to be James and Anne Lawrence.
I think that may be the wrong Joseph Dalgarno - the Joseph Dalgarno who was married to Anna Robertson died in 1880 in Fraserburgh - his parents are noted as James Dalgarno, shoemaker and Helen Hay. The age at death appears to say 56, which can't possibly be correct, but the address of Shore Street, Fraserburgh and his wife's name (she died in 1892) all match with census data. The death was registered by his daughter Christian Gordon (nee Dalgarno).
James Dalgarno and Helen Hay married in 1801 in Lonmay, and had twin sons, Joseph and John, baptised in Lonmay in 1802.
Ruth
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Goes to show you should never assume anything...I saw that death of Joseph age 56 and discounted it due to the age, I should have checked it first since the location is correct. Obviously the age was miss-written or the daughter seriously misled about her fathers age. He was 20 years older!
The 1880 date fits in better with the facts as well. That could well be just about the time Alexander became resident in the poorhouse.
Thanks for the correction, as always!
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Have been reading the excellent "Scottish Genealogy" by Bruce Durie.
He mentions that "Dressmaker" was sometimes given as occupation as a euphemism for prostitute in the census! Would this apply to Birth registrations as well? Has anyone run into this in their research?
Quite interesting, because the birth registration for Jane Hutcheon's first illegitimate child in 1870 lists her occupation as "Dressmaker" !
Coincidence ?
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Not wishing to add to the confusion, but I think your Jane/Jean Hutcheon may have had another illegitimate child... :o There is a William Hutcheon, aged 6 with her in the poor house in 1881. This William Hutcheon was born in 1874 in Millbrex to Jane Hutcheon, domestic servant. She successfully filed a paternity suit in 1876 against the child’s father, Jonathan Marnoch, farm servant at Haddo House, Methlick.
She presumably didn't get any money out of him, otherwise she and William wouldn't have been in the poor house in 1881, I guess ::) Can't find any trace of William after that though...
Ruth
At first I thought you were right, couldn't find him after 1881 census. Found 2 deaths approximately correct age but neither was him. After digging around a little more, I found the correct DC in Ellon (which makes sense since Jane's last address was Ythan Bank, Ellon) from 1946 (2 years after his mothers death). Appears he married a Margaret Stuart in 1901 in Milltown of Rothiemay. She apparently survived him. Haven't looked for any children yet. Strangely, on the marriage certificate his name is William Marnoch (no mention of Hutcheon), yet the certificate is filed under William Hutcheon.
So, so far I have found that at least 5 of Jane's 6 offspring (that I have found so far...there still could be more) survived into adulthood. Only one I haven't is George Davidson....haven't found his father either. BTW for anyone following this thread, through DNA matching I have contacted relations through the Arthur Keith line, so am now nearly 100% certain that Arthur Keith was indeed Alexander Keith Hutcheon's father.
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I have a (perhaps wild) theory that Jean/Jane Fowlie may actually have been the granddaughter (or other relative) of William Greig, who he adopted, and not related to Jane/Jean Greig (nee Yeats) at all.
Jane Fowlie died in 1873 in Methlick, where she is noted as being a sick nurse, unmarried and illegitimate. Her reputed father is one Thomas Fowlie, crofter, and her mother is noted as ‘? Greig, afterwards married to ? Ferguson, shoemaker’. And just to add to the intrigue, her death was registered by one Alexander Hutcheon, undertaker in New Deer - no relationship given... :o
Now, a Christian Greig married an Andrew Ferguson in New Deer in 1827 - which was after the birth of Jane Fowlie who, if her age at death is to be believed, was born about 1823. Unfortunately, I can’t find any trace of Andrew Ferguson or Christian Greig after that.
Back to William Greig - he married Jane Yeats in New Deer in 1816 - which would have made him about 46 (and her 41) - old for a first marriage, so it’s perfectly possible he was married previously. Unfortunately, I can’t find any obvious previous marriage, or a birth for Christian Greig, so this remains, alas, only a theory… ::)
Ruth
Well, three years later and after having a go at the newly available Kirk Session records from New Deer...it seems Ruth was correct! In fact not only was William Greig married before, but he apparently could'nt wait until his wife was in the ground before he got his soon-to-be second wife pregnant!
From the August 15th, 1816 New Deer KS record :
"William Greig in Stevensburn and his wife Jane Yeats, who were married on the 25th of January last and had a child brought forth on the 29th of May, the said Greig's former wife having been buried the day before DunstansFair of Old Deer last winter, being little more than five months before the birth of the child, and this being a case of adultery offended with aggravating circumstances aknowledged themselves guilty, are cited APUD ACTA to compear before the preysbytery to meet at Fraserburgh on Wednesday the 28th to whom the session refer the matter."
Sadly there is no mention of the childs name, the former wifes name, where she was buried or such. Nor was I able to find anything corresponding in the Fraserburgh Kirk records (question for those of you with more knowledge than I, why would they have referred it to Fraserburgh?). But still quite a bit of interesting information! I have several possibles for the first wife, as they appear to have had at least one son James who was old enough to be accused himself of adultery in 1822, but thats another story I'm still working on. It's quite complicated, but I'll go into that another time. These kirk session records are an awesome resource!
Best to all!
Fogmoose
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Nor was I able to find anything corresponding in the Fraserburgh Kirk records (question for those of you with more knowledge than I, why would they have referred it to Fraserburgh?).
They didn't refer it to the Kirk Session of Fraserburgh. They referred it to the Presbytery of Fraserburgh, to which New Deer belonged.
The Presbytery is the next tier up of the organisation of the kirk, consisting of the ministers of all the congregations in the Presbytery, plus representative elders from the Kirk Sessions (one elder per KS, or perhaps not quite so many).
It was standard practice to refer cases of adultery to the Presbytery, because adultery was a more heinous sin than mere fornication. Occasionally a pair of sinners would be summoned to appear before a meeting of the Presbtery, but mostly the Presbytery just talked about the case and remitted it back to the KS to deal with.
It looks as if the records of the Presbytery of Fraserburgh are no longer extant.
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Ahhh, I understand. Thanks Forfarian. I should have caught that one myself but my eyes are bleery from perusing all these new records LOL!
BTW I found a later entry from I believe 1818 New Deer KS that the said Greig and Yeats had been absolved and allowed back into good graces after the Preysbytery remitted the matter back to the Kirk. So you are correct as it appears they didnt have to actually appear before the higher body, but were instead kept in "scandal" for a pretty long while. LOL Scandal doesnt mean as much these days I suppose, though I submit that Grieg fooling around while his poor wife was on her death-bed is still pretty grievous even today! At least he did marry her, ha ha.
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Yes.
My great-great-great-grandfather and his next-door neighbour were summoned by the KS, who "deferred the further consideration of it so it should be ascertained whether or not it be a case of adultery". That is, they waited for the baby to be born so that they could work out whether or not it was conceived before the death of my great-great-great-grandmother.
The really annoying bit is that I can't find any evidence that it was ever actually ascertained!
But they were summoned again for fornication five years later, and I have found no evidence that any of their four children was legitimate.
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Another amazing update for anyone interested! RootsChat continues to be the most awesome place to find new family connections, as I have recently been contacted by my cousin Diane who is Jane Hutcheon's GG Grandaughter! She found me from another thread where I had posted a picture of Jane's house in Stuartfield (though I didn't know it was Jane's house when I posted it!). It turns out Diane was born in that very same house! Here is the thread link for anyone interested.
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=763994.0