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Old Photographs, Recognition, Handwriting Deciphering => Handwriting Deciphering & Recognition => Topic started by: Beans on Saturday 21 January 17 11:42 GMT (UK)
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Hi, Can anyone tell me, or have a guess, where my Barnes Boote was born near?
I guessed India but "born near India" doesn't make sense.
Any help on this would be much appreciated.
I have enclosed the original (PDF). Barnes Boot is the penultimate entry of the first block.
I can read:
Barnes Boote, Age 45, 23 years of Service, Rheumatic, Born near ??? Lab
Also what could the word in the margin at the very right of his entry mean?
Thanks in advance
Beans
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I think it begins with a faded S...Sussex?
Carol
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I think it ends ...ter.
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I think it ends ...ter.
I agree with ...ter. There seems to be a high dot preceding it - suggesting an i.
possibly Leicter (mis-spelling of Leicester)
Philip
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Could it be Lincoln - think I can see 'ln' at end ??? though it does seem to begin with 'S'. I don't think there are any letters missing as the writer always seems to raise the letter(s) to indicate an abbreviation (see Do for Dover, Labr for labourer}. There are a lot of Scottish places of birth in the list....
ADDED: posting snippet
ADDED later: There is a Finlay further up the list, first letter of place name looks similar to the 'F'? Or even a 'T' as in 'Thos'
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Thanks folks for this information. Hmm Leicester, Lincoln - I can see why you suggest it but I'm not sure. I agree with Josey that the first letter could by a capital F - but that doesn't help me any further either.
If it wasn't India I had two theories. as of 1751 I have him in London and had hoped that the name was somewhere in London. Or else in 1751 he married and his occupation was given as being in the 1st Regiment of Foot. From what I have read this seems to have been a Scotish Regiment so perhaps he was born up north ?
Does anyone have an idea what that word in the margin after his entry could mean?
I will continue looking at the document and maybe the town of birth will jump out at me.
the "at" in rheumatic seems to be identical to the that in the town name. I also agree it Looks like "ter" at the end so at the Moment I'm left with F..ater"
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Does anyone have an idea what that word in the margin after his entry could mean?
It appears to include the word ...Reserves.
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@ Bookbox. Reserve?? to me it Looks like a Glief...... but what do I know.
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My thoughts were that the G belongs to the preceding Do(?), as it also appears in the lines above (whatever it may mean).
Then I see a capital R, where you are seeing li. What you are seeing as f, I thought might be a long s. That said, I can't see any other examples of long s here, so maybe I'm wrong.
ADDED - if it's f, as you suggest, maybe it's Referred (or similar)?
We all see these things differently ;)
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@ Bookbox - ah yes, I see where you are comming from. I had assumed that the Do meant ditto with respect to the date of admitance but i now see that the G(?) is also in some of the lines above. Having accepted that, I can now also see reserve. Given that he was living in Bear Street by Leicester Square at the time, I suppose he wasn't on active duty anymore so it makes sense - thanks for that..
Now just got to work out where he was born.
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Could the place possibly be Insch, in Aberdeenshire?
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Isabel, thanks for that. I can see the "In" and possibly the "ch" butI feel that there is still something between the "in" and "ch" as well as after the "ch".
After a couple of Drinks last night i had another look at it. Could it possibly be London spel slopply? I know that that is very hopefull
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the "at" in rheumatic seems to be identical to the that in the town name.
I don't see this; as I see it the 'a' of 'Rheumatic' has a downstroke before the upstroke of the next letter, whereas the link from the [possible 'o' or 'c'] letter after the 'i' in the place of birth goes from the top or as part of a single curve from the left curved letter.
Also :-[ :-[ :-[ I now see the 'Do' I thought was 'Dover' is actually 'Ditto'
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Off topic I know - but, Beans, do you find a subs to fold3 worthwhile? I have not see this record set before.
Josey
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Did he remarry 4/1/1773 st Martin's in the fields to a Maria Winslow, may give widower of ?
I thought Lincoln as well :D
Jennifer
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Possible burial St Martin's in the fields 1774?
Jennifer
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familysearch has a burial for a Bornes Boot too in 1774 in St Martins in the Fields....
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:KCCC-5CS
Snap jennifer
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@ Josey and Jennifer c - thanks for all that Information. it's all good but but unfortunately we still do not know where he was Born. This is a pity as it is my 5th great grandfather and I have nothing on him before he was married to Faith Porrayne in 1751 meaning that is as far as I get with the Family history. I had hoped to be able to find out where he was born and then find Bootes in the area and maybe a will or trade which might then link up with him. Yes he died in 1774 and was buried at St Martin in the Fields, as was Faith in 1764. I am assuming that he married Maria Winslow but, as yet, have no definte proof - I'm still working on that on.
Thanks all the same and cheers
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@ Josey, re.: "Off topic I know - but, Beans, do you find a subs to fold3 worthwhile? I have not see this record set before. " I joined the free week long trial and cancelled again as soon as I had this record printed off. I did have a look for other Boot(e)s on their database but didn't find anything of interest so their was no point in me paying out good money.
You can search it free of Charge and if you find anything i recomend to take the free trial to obtain the information . from memory it seems to be only military database, but having said that, they do seem to have a lot of Information that is not available elsewhere.
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meaning that is as far as I get with the Family history.
So far.....who knows what may turn up in the future. But a birth in the 1720s is getting quite close to the limit of extant records for some places of birth - wherever that is ;)
Thanks for the info regarding fold3, will try the 7 day free trial once I have collected together all the names of any military in the family [mainly Murrays in the 87th]. You'd never get another chance of a free trial.
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@ Josey, you are correct, "so far".
When I think where I am now and where I was 20 years ago, although I haven't got much further back in time, the Information which has become available on those people has been amazing. May it continue in the future.
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Hi all,
I have managed to obtain a hopefully better copy in the hope that someone can decypher it.
I am pretty certain that the first letter is an S and not an. Any further help much appreciated, as is the help so far
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Hi Beans and Josey
Beans
The writer has a very flowery hand as far as capital letters go. His L and S are quite loopy. He usually give his Is a loopy top (see Inverness). I think the word starts with an I but the top part has faded a bit. I think it is Inch.
Josey
I found the record on The National Archives site for free with their viewer. The records are not indexed but using the number of the record set and then the date at the top of the page I found it easily.
WO 116/6 image 123 of 230
Venelow
Canada
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Hi Venelow and Josey,
@ Josey, Venlow is correct and beat me to informing you. The WO116 complete series can be downloaded free of charge, you just need to register. I downloaded the WO116/6 document and it is of better quality that the copy I had before. However, not all of the WOs have been digitised and you will still need to go to the NA to look at some of them.
@ Venelow, many thanks for this and I agree with the flowery hand. As there are quite a number of scottish birth places on the page, it might well be Inch.
However if I compare the "I" from Inverness to my one, in Inverness the hand seems to start at the top, going to the right and then up before coming down and finishing with a loop. It might even start at the bottom but then it goes up and to the left to complete the loop before going up. I do not think that this is the case in my word.
If you compare the word Sickly just two lines up from Barnes, I believe that the "S" is identical to the starting letter of my word, both starting to go down in a half loop before going up.
However, my Problem with that is I cannot find any town starting with an S which could fit so maybe I am completly wrong. What do you think?
Whatever the word is, I think it must be a town as it doesn't make sense (to me at least) to be near India, near Essex, near Scotland etc. In such a case he would have written In india, Essex, Scotland etc as he has done for other entries.
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However if I compare the "I" from Inverness to my one, in Inverness the hand seems to start at the top, going to the right and then up before coming down and finishing with a loop. It might even start at the bottom but then it goes up and to the left to complete the loop before going up. I do not think that this is the case in my word.
If you compare the word Sickly just two lines up from Barnes, I believe that the "S" is identical to the starting letter of my word, both starting to go down in a half loop before going up.
Actually I disagree; IMO the 'I' of Inverness AND your word begins at lower right, curls anticlockwise before ascending to an anticlockwise loop then a flourish. The 'S' of 'Sickly' ends after the loop - no flourish.
Venelow - thank you for that information, have downloaded it & am ploughing through hoping to find something else about my Philip Murray 87th reg [rootschat passim as Private Eye says ;D]. I would concur Inch if only there wasn't the flourish after the 'h' :-\
Beans - agree wholeheartedly about the placename being a town.
Josey
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I also think it probably starts with S. But there are several different forms of capitals used in the document, and at least 2 different hands, so comparison is very difficult.
I don’t think it’s Inch. Putting aside the initial capital, and after looking through the whole document, I see many place-names ending ...ch (e.g. Norwich, Whitchurch), but I don’t see any with a final ch that matches this.
However, my Problem with that is I cannot find any town starting with an S which could fit so maybe I am completly wrong.
There is plenty of 'non-standard' spelling in this document, and we need to bear in mind the place of birth may be a town outside the UK.
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Hi Bookbox.
re.: "and at least 2 different Hands" looking at the three sets of initials below this block, I believe that there are actually three sets of hands which, as you rightly say, makes comparison very dificult.
I also agree that there is a lot of non-Standard spelling but even taking that into account, i can't find anything which might fit.
Yes it is a possibility (but I hope not) that Barnes was born outside the UK. the only Thing I know is that he was Born in 1724 or 1728 (depending on which record is to be believed), that he served with the 1st Regiment of Foot Guards (i.e. mostly in London), married in 1751 in the Fleet and his wife (Faith) came from St Margarets, Westminster. He dies in 1774 in St Martin-in the Fields. He had at least two children both baptised in St Margarets Westminster.
This meant he signed up around 1746 but I have nothing on him before that.
I have done a world blanklet search but have not come up with any other Barnes Boot(e) nor Butt or Boet etc
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Yes it is a possibility (but I hope not) that Barnes was born outside the UK. I have done a world blanket search but have not come up with any other Barnes Boot(e) nor Butt or Boet etc
It does sound as though it could be a Scandinavian or Netherlands/German name.
Maybe his mother's maiden name was Barnes?
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Josey,
Looking at the page again I see that there are at least two handsr writing Inverness.
Looking at the one for Finlay McInzie I see that the writer definately starly at the bottom and not at the top as I originally suggested. However although both hands go anticlockwise initially, the "I" starts with a full circle whilst the (possible) "S" definitely starts with a half circle.
Whichever is correct, I still cannot come up with place name if we discount Inch.
I suppose it might be German seeing as Duke of Cumberland was Commanding Officer and some battalions of the 1st Foot Guards were in Germany at times -
I hadn't thought of that! And there are a lot of Boot(e)s in the Netherlands. But Barnes is not a Christian Name in either of those countries.
Funny, someone else also came up with the Barnes-Mothers surname theory but the only Boot/Barnes marriage I came up with was in 1852.
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Not a solution, but I wonder if the mark above the middle of the word is an apostrophe, indicating omitted letters? May be worth bearing in mind whilst considering possible places.
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Hmm - good suggestion and food for thought.
Do you see the line accross the complete word indication that the second vertical stroke is definitly a letter "t"?
I just changed my searching ways and entered only an initial "B" for Barnes.
Ancestry came up with one possibility, a B. Bout Born 14 December 1724 to Rich Bout in Wakefield, All Saints.
I tried the same in Germany and Netherland any came up with zilch!
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Do you see the line accross the complete word indication that the second vertical stroke is definitly a letter "t"?
Yes, the horizontal line for the 't' also appears as very long in 'Rheumatizm'.
Interesting find...here is the excerpt, though sadly I have a feeling the initial is 'R' not 'B' - I include a 'B' from same page.
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Even more sadly I think you are right. I let myself be led astray by the transcription and hope.
Ah well, back to the drawing board!
If we cannot agree on the first letter, what do you think the second one is?
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It's actually quite similar to the 'cc' of 'Macclesfield' below, may be a 'u' as in 'Rupture' below :-\
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Looks like Inches, possibly as mis-spelling of Insch (Aberdeen)?
Annie
Added...Have seen it written as Inches but unsure whether Inches & Insch are the same place....have never had to think about it before ;)
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@ Josey, I agree that it Looks very similar to the CC but that makes no sense at all
Scc... or Icc.. or Lcc. If it were an I then it should be Ick....
I also agree that "u" is the most likely, Su... or Lu... or Iu...
@ Rosinish, although Insch has been suggested by a number of helpers, I would have thought that if he said he was Born near somewhere, he would have taken the next largest town - Aberdeen - and not a villiage that I imagine most People of 1769 would not have heard of. Even now it only has a Population of 2.282 (Appologies if anyone from Insch is reading this)
Having said that, it does look like Insch in the document
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Beans,
We are talking 'rural' Scotland & miles between towns with no roads, much countryside & farms i.e. naming nearest Parish?
This link describes 'Insch'..."The parish of Insch is irregular in shape, and is situated about 27 miles north west of the City of Aberdeen, in Aberdeenshire, it is about 5½ miles in length and about 4 in breadth"
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01jg3/
There are a few places named 'Insh/Insch/Inch' in scotland.
This site is good;
http://www.scotlandsplaces.gov.uk/
What made me wonder was...the person directly above your man gives 'Born near Dundee' (a Parish) which is en route directly to Aberdeen.
Annie
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I have just noticed your man was in the 1st Regiment of Foot....
Could he have been born Inch, Dumfries and Galloway?
Annie
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Hi Annie,
Barnes served in the 1st Regiment of Foot Guards - the ones mainly based in London for the protection of the Monach. They later became the Grenider Guards, not to be confused with the 1st Regiment of Foot who later became the Scots Guards.
I was very confused by this at the begining until the difference was explained to me.
If you look at the documents, most were members of a Foot Regiment not a Foot Guard Regiment. Those who were Foot Guards were born in Barnet, Tunbridge and Kittering and it is now one of the reasons why I am not too certain regarding a scottish birthplace. I suspect or mayby I am just hoping for, a Home Counties birthplace
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Ahhh...I do note the difference (it does make a difference), thanks ;D
Will have an alternative angle now in my thinking process ::)
Annie
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What I can't get my head round is the fact they all say 'born near' ::)
What's that all about ??? ;D
Annie
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@ Josey, I agree that it Looks very similar to the CC but that makes no sense at all
Scc... or Icc.. or Lcc. If it were an I then it should be Ick....
I also agree that "u" is the most likely, Su... or Lu... or Iu...
Or maybe Sw...?
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What I can't get my head round is the fact they all say 'born near' ::)
Perhaps that's what they were asked 'What is the nearest big town/city to where you were born?' ???
In which case we are looking for a biggish town/city ::)
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@ Rosinish, although most of them say "near", not all of them do. There are a number of "at" eg at Dublin, even one which state in Skiel.
@ Bookbox, yes, I suppose it could be a W but only if the first letter is an S.
I can't imagine an Lw or an Iw
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Not good for the eyes ::)
I am now seeing a possible 'H' as the starting letter ???
Could it be an abbreviation (with the apostrophe) for Hainichen (Saxony) although dependent on the pronunciation!
Annie
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Rosinish, a town in Germany is a possibility, especially as Regiment of Foot Guards were in Germany fighting at the time when Barnes would have signed up. The problem with Hainichen, however, is that it is in Saxony and that the Saxon troops - and Population - had no contact with the english troops. They were fighting a couple of hundred miles away so there would be nom reason for barnes to have joined the English guards. If you had said Hanua, or Frankfurt, Verden or Dettingen............... but they are all too far away - unfortunately.
@ Josey, I agree that we are most probably looking for a bigish town/City, be it in England, Scotland, Germany or Netherlands.
I will be in London end of March and I plan to visit the National Archives to look at the muster Rolls/Pay books of the 1st Foot Guards. As These documents haven't been digitised yet. I will have to wait until then before I possibly uncover a bit more Information. I will also visit the home of the old 1st Regiment of Foot Guards in Waterloo Baracks where the Grenedier Museum now is. Ask them a few questions.