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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: Redman1946 on Thursday 19 January 17 11:54 GMT (UK)
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I a trying to trace my great great grandparents, and also my great grandfather after he disappeared in Australia in the late 1800's.
My great grandfather was William Andrew Jarvey. He married Jane Ford (1857-1917) in 1878 in Greenock, Scotland. His marriage record shows his father as William Jarvey, Pawnbroker and mother Catherine Jane Shaw. In the England 1881 census William Andrew gave his place of birth as Ireland in abt 1853, but I cannot find any record for him prior to 1878.
He left his family in the UK about 1886 and went to Australia. His eldest son, William Henry Jarvey (1879-1955) went to Australia in 1894 in attempt to find his father but was unable to do so, and I cannot find any further records for him on line.
The only record I can find for his possible parents is a William Andrew Jarvey (1823-1865), who was licensed as a Pawnbroker in Tasmania, and married the Irish born Catherine Jane Shaw (1824-1864) there in 1844. One of their many children was William James, born in 1848, who I cannot trace after that date, and was not with the family when they moved to New Zealand in 1862.
Any information or possible links would be very much appreciated.
:)
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I hope this doesn't come as too much of a shock but there are a number of newspaper reports about William Andrew JARVEY in NZ (and the death of his wife Catherine Jane nee SHAW)
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article38664282
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article212787045
Several more like this
Ros
adding : death http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article169040782
a later summary http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article168749494
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Can I just check.
The 1881 Census
William A Jarvey was with his wife and Father in law and also a son Frank?
Maggsie
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William Henry JARVEY
There is a death in Queensland https://www.bdm.qld.gov.au/
1955 William Henry JARVEY, father William Andrew, mother Jane FORD, reg C5271
Here it relates story of his coming to Australia at age 15 to find his father
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-page9684216
Marriage of son http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article56386416
WW2 service for son http://www.ww2roll.gov.au/Veteran.aspx?ServiceId=A&VeteranId=19678
Christening of son's daughter http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article57261627
Birth of son's son http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article56814769
Ros
adding : whoops you know about the son - I misread the "him" in not finding anything further online as applying to son instead of father.
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Thanks for getting back so quickly. I have extensive records for William Andrew Jarvey (1823-1865) as he was quite notorious. After arriving in Tasmania he eventually set up as a Pawnbroker from 1853 until 1856. However, I am trying to establish a definite link between him and my great grandfather William Andrew (1853-?).
It is just such a coincidence that my great grandfather gave his father as William Jarvey, Pawnbroker and his mother as Catherine Jane Shaw. I cannot find this couple anywhere else but in Tasmania. The one theory is that their son William James, who would have been about 16 when his family went to New Zealand, might have remained in Tasmania, or left home even earlier. Did he come to the UK and not be too precise about his background because of the events in New Zealand?
The other possibility is that there was a couple of the same name as William and Catherine in Ireland who were pawnbrokers, and the records have been lost.
Just hoping someone might know something.
:)
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In the story about William Henry JARVEY coming to Queensland, Australia to look for his dad, it says that he discovered that his father had gone to Western Australia.
I have been checking W.A. BDM http://www.bdm.dotag.wa.gov.au/_apps/pioneersindex/
and W.A. cemeteries http://www2.mcb.wa.gov.au/ without success.
I'll have a look for William James ...
Ros
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I'm getting confused - well it's quite late here.
William Andrew JARVEY and Catherine Jane SHAW had a son
William James JARVEY born in Tasmania 8 sep 1848.
Are you suggesting that they later c1853 had a son William Andrew JARVEY born in Ireland? Well perhaps this is possible if the first William had died but it seems a stretch to suggest that they returned to Ireland and then back to Tasmania.
Could William James and William Andrew be the same person who returned to UK (after the scandal) and married in Scotland and then later ran off back to Australia?
Perhaps I have lost the plot ... :(
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There is a death of a Jane JARVEY (nee FORD) in Queensland in 1917
1917 C944 Jane JARVEY, father Henry FORD, mother Jane MURDOCH
Her funeral notices http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article55169182
Did Jane (and her children) follow her husband and son to Australia?
And a death in 1966
1966 C1073 John Thomas JARVEY, father William Andrew JARVEY, mother Jane FORD,
Ros
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I am waiting for a reply as above.
I have found the info but too big to post here.
It seems Jane the mother went to Australia only 8 years before she passed on. But there was another Jane Jarvey who was a nurse went she went to Australia, so I need confirmation.
I asked about the son Frank as this is where I picked up all the info.
It states who went to Australia and the addresses of the other siblings in England.
I also found the ship record of the William Jarvey who married Catherine Shaw in Australia.
Maggsie
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Great finds Maggsie :)
G'night,
Ros
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Hi Ros and Maggsie
Sorry if I have made this all a bit confusing and not getting back very quickly; only my second time on Rootschat so I'm just getting the hang of it!
My great grandfather, William Andrew Jarvey (1853-?) had 5 children.
After he left the family my great grandmother, Jane Jarvey (nee Ford) emigrated to Australia in 1909 together with her daughter Catherine who had married George McNally, and her sons Frank Edward and John Thomas. Her son James England (my grandfather) went but returned shortly afterwards. Her eldest son William Henry Jarvey had already gone in 1894 by stowing away on board ship to try and find his father.
I have numerous cousins in Australia, but so far we have not been able to trace any record of William Andrew Jarvey (1853-?) before his marriage to Jane Ford in 1878 or after he left his family in the UK in the late 1800's, apart from the newspaper article about William Henry's search.
The connection to William Andrew Jarvey (1823-1865) and his wife Catherine Jane Shaw, has only been made because my great grandfather gave these names as his parents on his marriage record. He also said that his father was a Pawnbroker. This was William Andrew Snr's occupation from 1853-56.
We have two theories:
Either William Andrew Jnr was born in Ireland as he claimed in the 1881 census and his parents were a different William, also a Pawnbroker, and Catherine Jane Shaw, possibly living in Ireland. I haven't been able to trace them, but Irish records can be very difficult to find.
Or William Andrew Jnr was born in Tasmania to the William and Catherine Jane Shaw living there, and came to the UK and got married in Scotland in 1878. The notoriety of his father's trial may have caused him to leave Tasmania and be a little secretive about his past.
This is where the family have come up against a brick wall, even the Australian descendants. We can't prove either of these scenarios.
Thanks for your comments and what you have found.
:) :)
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It's an interesting search Redman :)
Sorry not finding anything useful but the Tassie couple seem to be very likely as the parents (and missing birth or death regs in that era are quite possible).
Still looking ...
Ros
adding : I wonder if the middlename England is a clue. WAJ sen had a son England and WAJ jun had a son James England - not a middlename expected from a father born in Ireland and married in Scotland.
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Re the 1881 Census.
I wonder if the enumerator recorded "Ireland" instead of "Van Diemen's Land" or "Tasmania", perhaps after asking William A JARVEY "where's Van Diemen's Land" or "where's Tasmania" and William replying "It's an Island in the Antipodes".
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q27L-SYXP
JM
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Ros
Interesting that you thought about the name England as a connection. If William Andrew Snr is my great great grandfather, then my grandfather James England could have been named after William's son, his uncle England. I don't think its a common name.
William and Catherine's son, William James (b. 1848) did not go to New Zealand with them in 1862, as while they were there Andrew (b. 1853) was called the eldest son in all the newspaper reports. Also I can't find death records for William James, but then I can't find death records for most of their other children in Tasmania.
Did William James leave home, come to the UK and use the name William Andrew, although he would have changed his date of birth as well?
It's just deciding if all the clues are real links or just a lot of coincidences.
JM - That's certainly possible. William could also have had an unusual accent if his parents were Irish and he had been brought up in Tasmania, so he could easily have been misunderstood.
Thanks everyone for trying to find the answers.
Lynda
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What a fascinating case!. I'll have a dig around in the Tas archives to see what I can find.
Just in case you haven't seen it, there's an old book about the trial that seems to have lots of details and clues about the family
https://books.google.com.au/books/about/Trial_of_Captain_Jarvey_on_a_Charge_of_P.html?id=5aIxAAAAIAAJ&redir_esc=y
M :)
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Great find Matthew :)
I can't see a will for WAJ senior on NZ archives https://www.archway.archives.govt.nz/ or on tasmania links http://portal.archives.tas.gov.au/ but I have rarely searched these sites (so happy to be corrected).
My initial reaction to thinking William Andrew jun may be William James was partly lack of death reg for William James (which can be ignored) and partly doubt that a 9 year-old could be left behind. But yes he could have been apprenticed (possibly to a relative) and considered well-provided-for. They started very young in those days (but still hard to get your mind around).
I wonder if there are apprentice-ship records in Tas archives ...?
There don't seem to be any close relatives - the witnesses at the wedding are George Turner and John H Heyward http://www.rootschat.com/links/01jbd/
I wonder if Catherine's death certificate would have details of all her children. Do you have this Lynda?
Just pondering ... :)
Ros
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I was also wondering if children had been left behind. There are records for 12 or so births (one to another woman), only 1 death record, and 7 children travelled to NZ; 2 dying before Mrs Jarvey's murder.
Suspicions arose following his trial
THE NEWS OF THE DAY. (1865, December 9). The Age (Melbourne, Vic. : 1854 - 1954), p. 5. Retrieved January 21, 2017, from http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article155042227
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Is there anything to exclude the Andrew born c1853 who did go to NZ from being WAJ jnr? Often when parent and child shared a name the child was known by second name to distinguish them.
Ros
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In NZ in 1874, Wm Andrew JARVEY was charged with stealing banknotes and a watch
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01jbf/
This account says W. Andrew JARVEY charged with stealing banknotes and a watch (implies he was known as Andrew)
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01jbh/
Ros
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BUT Andrew JARVEY, son of notorious Captain JARVEY was assumed drowned when the vessel on which he was a cabin boy was lost off NSW coast in 1867
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01jbg/
Ros
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Matthew
I had seen an advertisement for the book at the time of the trial at a price of 2s. But not a link to it. Thanks for that.
I have read numerous repots on the trials and inquest which have turned up all sorts of clues, and problems, as there has been a lot of conflicting information. Then again, newspaper reports are not always completely accurate.
Its been difficult establishing exactly which children survived as some were not given names at the time their births were registered. The ship's passenger list when William Andrew took his wife and children to New Zealand states that there were only five children on board, however considering the two deaths in New Zealand and the fact that five were supposed to have visited their father in goal the day before his execution, Elizabeth, Andrew, two boys (England and Frank), and the youngest a girl (Sophia?), it would seem that you are right that seven went.
I had read reports about the suspicious deaths of William's children at the Huon Farm and had wondered about Charlotte and Archibald's deaths in NZ just before their mother, but had not seen the article you have found. That's very interesting. Again, another newspaper article was misleading when it said that three of his children died on the same day in August 1864 when I can only find death records for two.
Thanks again.
Regards
Lynda
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Hi Ros
My original thought had been that William James (b. 1848) would have been about 15 when his parents went to New Zealand and may have stayed behind. This assumed that he was still alive at that time.
Your theory about William Andrew Jnr being called by his second name and being the Andrew (b. 1852) who went to New Zealand seems very possible. It also matches the birth year much better with the 1853 shown for WA Jnr in the England 1881 census. The way his name was given in the reports for his charge and conviction for stealing money in 1874 also seemed to point that way.
Andrew, son of WA Snr was before the Magistrate in November 1866 for theft on board the vessel where he was cabin boy.
I was getting quite excited up to the point when I read your last message stating that Andrew had drowned when the Lombard was lost in 1867. The only way he can now be connected to our William Andrew Jnr married in Scotland, is if he survived the wreck, although the newspaper report says he didn't.
On step forward, two steps back it seems!!
No, I don't have a copy of Catherine's death certificate, but I think I have worked out the names of the children who were in New Zealand at the time of her death.
Thanks for your help.
Regards.
Lynda
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The arrival in NZ which shows 7 children
http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/ODT18640430.2.5
The trial book on google books is vaguely searchable and I did see a bit where one of the children was talking about who else was in the family, but couldn't see it all as it only shows snips
M :)
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Yes, that is a problem.
Thanks.
Lynda
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".. William Andrew..... married Jane Ford (1857-1917) in 1878 in Greenock, Scotland".
Can you list all the information on this certificate please. Other JARVEY family involved?
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M
Thanks for the article showing 7 children going to NZ, this now makes the numbers add up, literally!
Thanks.
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3 June 1878 St Mary's, Greenock
William Andrew Jarvey, Bachelor 25 Clothiers Assistant, 23 Nicholson Street, Greenock
Father: William Jarvey (Pawnbroker), Mother: Catherine Jane Shaw
Jane Ford, Spinster,23 Nicholson Street, Greenock
Father: Henry Jarvey (Labourer), Mother: Jane Murdoch
Witnesses: G Gardner, Susannah Redhead
No other Jarvey family involved
A Henry Ford, Labourer lived at 24 West Blackhall Street, Greenoch
Alexander Jarvis (don't think he was related to Jarvey) lived next door at 26 West Blackhall Street and had a Clothiers business at 34 West Blackhall Street
William Andrew Jarvey may have worked for Jarvis as a Clothiers Assistant, which is how he met Jane Ford.
:)
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Just trying to sort out the children. The ones with an asterisk are the seven who went to NZ.
1846 (Hobart)
Elizabeth Ann *
Stated she was the eldest daughter and eldest child.
1848 (Hobart)
William James
Presumed died. His father said “our first child died” when claiming that Elizabeth was not their daughter. This may be the child he was referring to. Elizabeth also stated in 1865 that she was the eldest daughter and eldest child. Andrew JARVEY stated that he was the eldest son.
1850 (Hobart) Unnamed Female
Charlotte Jane *
Died 1864 NZ, in her 15th year – stated to be the second daughter
1852 (Hobart) Unnamed Male
Andrew *
Stated he was the eldest son and aged 13 years in Sep 1865
1853 (Hobart)
England *
1855 (Hobart)
Alice
Presumed died
1856 (Port Cygnet) Unnamed Male
Frank *
Stated as being "about 8" in 1865
1858 (Franklin) Unnamed Male
Archibald *
Died 1864 NZ aged 5
1859 (Franklin) Unnamed Female
Presumed died
1860 (Port Cygnet) Unnamed Female
Death registered May 1860, aged one month
1861 (Port Cygnet) Unnamed Female
Katie *
Child mentioned by her mother when she was dying and said to be aged 3 in 1864/65
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I've been trying to sort out the children as well and agree with what Dundee has posted. I hadn't found a name for the youngest but did see reference to a 3 yo.
A few clues to add:
From Parish of Franklin burials
Alice, buried Sept 17 1856, 15 months
Catharine, May 14 1860, 4 months
Baptisms
May 14 1860 (day of burial above)
Frank (born Nov 24 1856)
&
Archibald (born Mar 29 1858)
There's an England Shaw of roughly the right age, origin Dunedin or in one case Dunedin (Tas) on crew lists for Tasmania and East Coast Australia.
M
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Well done. I was going to suggest that the church registers would help to provide more details.
Katie is mentioned here:
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/HBH18650930.2.15?query=katie%20jarvey
The latest entry I can see for England SHAW is in 1893 on the ship Morayshire of Glasgow from London to Sydney.
Debra :)
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Thanks Debra :)
There's a marriage of William James Jarvey, full age, mariner, father William Andrew Jarvey, DD
to Priscilla Bishop, St James, Bermondsey, London, 9 Oct 1871
The William James born in 1848 would have been 16 yo when the family went to NZ, so may have already started working on ships?
William Andrew Jarvey and Catharine Shaw married in 1844 and Elizabeth is born in 1846, so there's a bit of a gap there for a first born who didn't survive.
M
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Hi everyone
Marriage between William James Jarvey and Priscilla Bishop, St James, Bermondsey, London, 9 Oct 1871. Father William Andrew Jarvey DD. I think DD means Doctor of Divinity so I only saved this to my shoebox as not certain it was ours. But as William was a mariner it could be right. I haven't been able to find a reference to William James since his birth.
When the Jarvey homestead at Huon Valley was destroyed by fire in November 1858, William, Catherine and all 7 children were rescued, which would have included William James. Sophia, Catherine and Katie would not have been born by then. Again, adding up numbers, William James either died or left home before 1964 when they went to NZ.
The references to England Shaw are interesting. England is an unusual first name and he may have reverted to his mother's maiden name after the notoriety of the trial.
I think Dundee has got all the 7 children in NZ right, I had just caught up with the reference to Katie in one of the reports of Elizabeth's satements at the trial, I had previously thought the youngest daughter might be Sophia as I had found no record of her death prior to 1864. But obviously its Katie (possibly christened Catherine).
Still trying to find the proof that my great grandfather, William Andrew Jarvey (1853-?) was the son of William Andrew Jarvey (1823-1865) and Catherine Jane Shaw. The theory that a son with the same name as his father would be known by his second name at home, i.e. Andrew, was leading to the premis that Andrew and William Andrew were the same person. This fails with the article that Andrew drowned when the Lambard sank in 1866 on which he was a cabin boy. I am trying to find proof that he was actually on board that day, again on the assumption that newspaper reports are not always accurate in the hope that he lived past 1866.
One possible clue is the similarity between the some of the names of WA Jnr's children. Catherine Jane, his mother's name, James England, Frank, William Henry, John Thomas.
And who was the William Andrew Jarvey up before the magistrate in 1974?
Well done with what you have found so far.
Lynda :)
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Here's the baptism record for Andrew in 1852 at St George's, Battery Point
M
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Well found M
The baptism record confirms his given name as Andrew so he can't be our William Andrew Jnr.
So its back to the search!
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Just a note.
At WA Snr's trial his daughter Elizabeth was asked if Andrew 13 was the eldest boy. She replied that "The eldest boy at home." Of the births we know of, the eldest not at home would be William James (b. 1848) and confirm that he was still alive in 1865 and had left home before the family went to New Zealand.
She also confirmed that her little sister, though not giving a name, was 3 years old. Presumably Katie born in 1861 (possibly named after her sister Catherine born and died 1860).
She said that Frank was the youngest son still living and was about 8, and England about 11.
This tidies up a few loose ends but still doesn't help with the link between William Andrew Jnr (b. abt 1851 according to 1881 census) and the rest of the family.
Still looking!!
Also still trying to find details of the marriage between a William James Jarvey and Priscilla Bishop in 1871 as I can't find either family at that time, the only reference being the marriage record.
:)
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Another bit of information:
I knew that William’s wife, Catherine Jane Jarvey, was buried in the Southern Cemetery in September 1864 so I decided to have a look at the details on the website. It shows her plot as Block 2P Plot 67 (with a photograph) and that her 3 children are also buried there:
Archibald
Charlotte
Charlotte Jane (Sophia)
all dying on 10 August 1864 and buried on 11 August.
This has now thrown up some more questions! We are pretty certain that only two children died since the family arrived in Dunedin in 1864:
Charlotte died on 29 July 1864 (Folio No. 386) and her funeral was 1 August 1864. Confirmed by Elizabeth at the trial.
Archibald 1864 (same Folio number, which is strange).
There is also a death record for Charlotte Jane in 1864 (Folio No. 395). Had there been a mix up in the Death Index as there are only two Folio Numbers and we don’t have a record for a Charlotte Jane at all. Did Charlotte have a middle name of Jane?
But of course there are three children listed as being buried on 11 August 1864. Could the cemetery records be wrong and there were only two children buried in the plot? We know that they got Charlotte's burial date wrong as the funeral was advertised as being on 1 August. It also confuses things with the name Sophia in brackets in the cemetery list. They had a Sophia in Tasmania, but not in New Zealand.
I know these are old records, but I have asked the Trust if there is any way of finding out if the number of burials in the plot is correct and if there are any records giving more details?
Awaiting a reply.
There was some speculation about Charlotte having been poisoned, but at about the time of her and Archibald's deaths Elizabeth was recovering from scarlet fever. Is that what the other children died of? It would seem to be a more natural reason for them both dying so close together.
???
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An article about the case also states three children buried with the mother
http://www.dunedinfamilyhistory.co.nz/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/DFHG-October-2015-newsletter.pdf
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Thanks.
This was the first article I read but since reading newspaper reports, advertisements, shipping notices and court documents, I believe it contains a few inaccuracies.
Charlotte died on 29 July and her funeral was on 1 August.
One shipping report shows Captain and Mrs Jarvey and 7 children arriving in Tasmania aboard the Brig Jane, not 5 as mentioned in this article. And the farm on the Huon was still owned by William at the time of his wife's death and advertised for sale in December of that year.
It is quite possible that Sophia did go to New Zealand with the family and that 8 children were on the Jane.
I think that the information regarding the death of 3 children on 10 August 1864 was probably taken from the cemetery records. The Southern Heritage Trust has said it will try and find someone who can answer the question of whether there were two or three children buried and if the third was Charlotte Jane or Sophia.
:)
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Hello, Minnie on our NZ board has a 2021 thread asking about the Jarvey children.
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=847744.0
Cheers
KHP