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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Lanarkshire => Topic started by: cupcake on Wednesday 18 January 17 10:03 GMT (UK)
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Would like any information on my GGG Grandmother Christian MOFFAT (Fraser)
She is on the 1841 Census Robertson Street - Glasgow
Robertson Street
Christian MOFFAT 64 manager (my GGG Grandmother) What would manager mean?
Mary FLEMING 35 Draper (her daughter)
Isabella Morrison 30 ?
Andrew Moffat 22 (her son)
George FLEMING 12 (her grandson)
William FLEMING 10 ( her grandson)
She is not on the 1851 Census so she may have died there. It would appear she was a widow as no mention of her husband William MOFFAT.
Any information would be very much appreciated
cupcake
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She is on the 1841 Census Robertson Street - Glasgow
Is this from the original or from a transcription? If the latter, suggest you check the original to see whether 'manager' is a correct transcription.
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I was sent this information and was typed as transcribed. I have asked the person to check the original for me.
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I had a look on http://www.freecen.org.uk/cgi/search.pl and it does transcribe it as 'Manager'. However it also transcribes her name as 'Cristain' so at least one of the transcriptions has at least one error in it!
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Related topic here :
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=763188.0
Incidentally, one two of the transcriptions that I saw had Christian as a male.
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Just noticed that the one on Freecen is also down as male, so that's three transcriptions. I think the original should be consulted.
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Gadget & Forfarian
Thank you both for pointing this out to me.
cupcake
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I had a look on http://www.freecen.org.uk/cgi/search.pl and it does transcribe it as 'Manager'. However it also transcribes her name as 'Cristain' so at least one of the transcriptions has at least one error in it!
Same on An****y ;)
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I believe the original is on Scotlands People so, when I get some credit, I'll check it. It is inevitable there will be spelling mistakes. :)
cupcake
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I believe the original is on Scotlands People so, when I get some credit, I'll check it. It is inevitable there will be spelling mistakes. :)
Yes, it's probably inevitable that there will be spelling mistakes made by the enumerator, but it is neither inevitable nor excusable that transcriptions differ from the enumerator's original.
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Ah well another senior moment :-\ Actually the transcription provided on the previous thread does say Christain. I simply in haste did not look at the sex! Mea culpa!
William
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Hi William :)
It's unlikely that the 3 transcriptions have wrongly transcribed the sex/gender. Maybe one can accept that those with non-Scots knowledge might think that Christian is a male, but do the transcriptions imply that all three misread the age/gender column.
I think cupcake will need to check on the original :-\
Gadget
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:)
Just to say that the SP index has her as Cristain and Female. I've not checked the original but SP indexes are usually pretty good.
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Couldn't resist ::) but was this person male or female - change to age column!
One of those where SP had the person as female and the other 3 main transcriptions has the person as male.
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Would like any information on my GGG Grandmother Christian MOFFAT (Fraser).......
Any information would be very much appreciated
Not my family, so just a suggestion
ANDREW MOFFAT son of WILLIAM MOFFAT/CHRISTIAN FRASER born Dumfries 17/02/1818
Parish/Ref 821/30 298
JOHN MOFFAT son of WILLIAM MOFFAT/CHRISTIAN FRASER born Dumfries 29/06/1815
Parish/Ref 821/ 30 282
MARY MOFFAT married JOSEPH FLEMING in Dumfries 31/01/1830
There were 2 William Moffats in Dumfries at this time whio had the following children
JANNET
07/12/1801
MARY
02/02/1806
MARY
05/03/1808
WILLIAM GRACIE
22/02/1810
WILLIAM
21/03/1810
MARGARET
17/08/1811
THOMAS
29/03/1812
JANNET
21/03/1813
deceased
13/12/1813
MATTHEW
WILLIAM MOFFAT/JEAN CORRIE
23/05/1815
JOHN
WILLIAM MOFFAT/CHRISTIAN FRASER
29/06/1815
ANDREW
WILLIAM MOFFAT/CHRISTIAN FRASER
17/02/1818
&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&
WILLIAM MOFFAT / CHRISTIAN FRASER Married Dumfries 10/09/1796
Parish/Ref 821/50 147
CHRISTIAN FRASER daughter of ANDREW FRASER born 17/08/1777 Dumfries
Parish/Ref 821/30 43
ANDREW FRASER married JANNET GIBSON on 14/10/1770 at Dumfries
Parish/Ref 821/50 70
I would check these out as possible siblings to Christian. Dumfries birth records (in 1777 at least) contains the fathers job and well as the names of a couple of witnesses.
JAMES
03/11/1771
MARY
04/04/1773
JOHN
19/11/1775
CHRISTIAN
17/08/1777
ANDREW
31/01/1779
MARION
16/01/1780
JANNET
06/01/1782
JOHN
11/10/1783
ANDREW
03/10/1787
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One of those where SP had the person as female and the other 3 main transcriptions has the person as male.
I would be tempted to ask SP to check the gender again. It looks like male to me.
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I would but not sure how they would be able to check though as the original has the age clearly in the male column. Would they have the original household forms?
What do you suggest?
Added - have put in a query about the discrepancy between index and original, etc.
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I would but not sure how they would be able to check though as the original has the age clearly in the male column. Would they have the original household forms?
I don't know, but they must surely have had some reason for indexing Cristain as female when the original seems to say clearly that Cristain is male.
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Will report back when I hear from them.
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Would like any information on my GGG Grandmother Christian MOFFAT (Fraser).......
Any information would be very much appreciated
Not my family, so just a suggestion
ANDREW MOFFAT son of WILLIAM MOFFAT/CHRISTIAN FRASER born Dumfries 17/02/1818
Parish/Ref 821/30 298
JOHN MOFFAT son of WILLIAM MOFFAT/CHRISTIAN FRASER born Dumfries 29/06/1815
Parish/Ref 821/ 30 282
MARY MOFFAT married JOSEPH FLEMING in Dumfries 31/01/1830
There were 2 William Moffats in Dumfries at this time whio had the following children
JANNET
07/12/1801
MARY
02/02/1806
MARY
05/03/1808
WILLIAM GRACIE
22/02/1810
WILLIAM
21/03/1810
MARGARET
17/08/1811
THOMAS
29/03/1812
JANNET
21/03/1813
deceased
13/12/1813
MATTHEW
WILLIAM MOFFAT/JEAN CORRIE
23/05/1815
JOHN
WILLIAM MOFFAT/CHRISTIAN FRASER
29/06/1815
ANDREW
WILLIAM MOFFAT/CHRISTIAN FRASER
17/02/1818
&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&
WILLIAM MOFFAT / CHRISTIAN FRASER Married Dumfries 10/09/1796
Parish/Ref 821/50 147
CHRISTIAN FRASER daughter of ANDREW FRASER born 17/08/1777 Dumfries
Parish/Ref 821/30 43
ANDREW FRASER married JANNET GIBSON on 14/10/1770 at Dumfries
Parish/Ref 821/50 70
I would check these out as possible siblings to Christian. Dumfries birth records (in 1777 at least) contains the fathers job and well as the names of a couple of witnesses.
JAMES
03/11/1771
MARY
04/04/1773
JOHN
19/11/1775
CHRISTIAN
17/08/1777
ANDREW
31/01/1779
MARION
16/01/1780
JANNET
06/01/1782
JOHN
11/10/1783
ANDREW
03/10/1787
Many thanks for all that information.
Looks as if you have found me another son for William & Christian MOFFAT :) :
JOHN MOFFAT son of WILLIAM MOFFAT/CHRISTIAN FRASER born Dumfries 29/06/1815
Parish/Ref 821/ 30 282
Mary MOFFAT was born 1806 Dumfries ( I have managed to get Mary's birth entry 1806 - her marriage entry to Joseph FLEMING 1830 and his death 1832 -and Mary's death in 1867) but can't find William MOFFAT and Christian MOFFAT (Fraser).
I will check these out as possible siblings to Christian, Dumfries birth records in 1777. Would be interesting to see the fathers job as well as the names of a couple of witnesses. I haven't any information on Christian's family.
Thanks again
cupcake
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Ah well another senior moment :-\ Actually the transcription provided on the previous thread does say Christain. I simply in haste did not look at the sex! Mea culpa!
William
I have to be honest, I hadn't noticed this. I'll have to be more observant in future and, keep my sensible head on :D
cupcake
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I have the birth record for July 1777 for Dumfries but not August, that's how I know what info it contains. See attached.
This "were 2 William Moffats in Dumfries " should read "were at least 2 William Moffats in Dumfries" at this time
Dumfries archives webpage is here, its searchable, depending on the occupation he may appear in one of the trade minute books
http://archives.dumgal.gov.uk
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Would like any information on my GGG Grandmother Christian MOFFAT (Fraser)
She is on the 1841 Census Robertson Street - Glasgow
Robertson Street
Christian MOFFAT 64 manager (my GGG Grandmother) What would manager mean?
Mary FLEMING 35 Draper (her daughter)
Isabella Morrison 30 ?
Andrew Moffat 22 (her son)
George FLEMING 12 (her grandson)
William FLEMING 10 ( her grandson)
She is not on the 1851 Census so she may have died there. It would appear she was a widow as no mention of her husband William MOFFAT (Blacksmith, Dumfries)
Any information would be very much appreciated
cupcake
Just wanted to add a little more information.
As I said Christian was possibly a widow before 1841. Can't find her husband William's death anywhere. They are all from Dumfries and would have been a daunting journey back then from Dumfries - Glasgow. Mary, her daughter was married to Joseph FLEMING in 1830 they had two sons 1830/1831. Joseph (shoemaker) died Annan, 1832 aged 28, just a year after their second son was born.
Were they in rented accommodation?
cupcake
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Were they in rented accommodation?
The chances of them actually owning their house are very small. Almost the entire population, apart from a few large landowners, lived in rented accommodation.
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I have the birth record for July 1777 for Dumfries but not August, that's how I know what info it contains. See attached.
This "were 2 William Moffats in Dumfries " should read "were at least 2 William Moffats in Dumfries" at this time
Dumfries archives webpage is here, its searchable, depending on the occupation he may appear in one of the trade minute books
http://archives.dumgal.gov.uk
I can't make the connection with this birth certificate. Thank you for web site address.
cupcake
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Were they in rented accommodation?
The chances of them actually owning their house are very small. Almost the entire population, apart from a few large landowners, lived in rented accommodation.
Thought so just had to check.
Mary was at the same address in 1851 with son George 20 (painter) and son William 18 tinsmith
( All born Dumfries)
1861 Mary was lodger at 3 Eglington Street Glasgow. Mary died 17 January 1867 aged 63 Lochmaben, Dumfriesshire.
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It was just an example of the info on the birth certificate and the fact its legible
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telmark
I understand. Thank you.
cupcake
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Will report back when I hear from them.
I've just heard back from SP about the discrepancy of index v image on the 1841 census:
Thank you for contacting ScotlandsPeople.
This is clearly male on the record so I will send this one to the indexing team to have a further look at.
The occupation is manager and I do not think in those days that females would hold a title job as this but thanks for notifying us.
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Will report back when I hear from them.
I've just heard back from SP about the discrepancy of index v image on the 1841 census:
Thank you for contacting ScotlandsPeople.
This is clearly male on the record so I will send this one to the indexing team to have a further look at.
The occupation is manager and I do not think in those days that females would hold a title job as this but thanks for notifying us.
That's good they got back to you. I have had queries in the past with Scotlands People and they are usually prompt at dealing with issues.
Thank you for contacting them.
cupcake
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Were they in rented accommodation?
The chances of them actually owning their house are very small. Almost the entire population, apart from a few large landowners, lived in rented accommodation.
Thought so just had to check.
Mary was at the same address in 1851 with son George 20 (painter) and son William 18 tinsmith
( All born Dumfries)
1861 Mary was lodger at 3 Eglington Street Glasgow. Mary died 17 January 1867 aged 63 Lochmaben, Dumfriesshire.
Looks as if William stayed in Glasgow, worked as a Tinsmith. 1891 Census has William Fleming age - 59yrs - Bridgeton - Glasgow, Barony - Address, 68 Muslin Street. with Jessie 57yrs - Joseph 17yrs.
His brother George, returned to Dumfries and married.
cupcake
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I am trying to find a death for George FLEMING b. 15 April 1830 Dumfries.
On the 1840/1850 census he was at 70 Robertson Street, Glasgow. George was a painter.
He was married to a Janet Johnstone August 1865 - she died 1872 Lochmaben, Dumfriesshire. No sign of him after his wife died in 1872 till the 1881 census. He may have returned to Glasgow.
On the 1881 census he was in Dyfsdale, Dumfriesshire with a Margaret 29 - John 13 - Mary 4. Did he re-marry?
Any information would be very much appreciated.
ADD George's parents were Joseph FLEMING and Mary FLEMING (Moffat)
cupcake
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Trying to find further information on William FLEMING tinsmith. Born Dumfries 1831 - parents Joseph Fleming and Marry Fleming (Moffat)
He is on the 1841 census age 20 yrs. (Tinsmith) 70 Robertson Street, Glasgow
He is then on the 1881 1891 census 59 yrs - Bridgeton - Glasgow Barony address 68 muslin Street. with Jessie 57 and Joseph 17. Was he married and when?
Any information would be very much appreciated.
cupcake
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I have found two of
Joseph's[/u] William's sons birth entries and the interesting thing is, it gives their parents year, date and place of marriage :). Also found his wife's death entry for 1893 - district of Bridgeton.
Can anyone please tell me where she may have been buried.
cupcake
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Have put this on * and realised I shouldn't have.
*Threads merged.
I am trying to find a death for George FLEMING b. 15 April 1830 Dumfries.
On the 1840/1850 census he was at 70 Robertson Street, Glasgow. George was a painter.
He was married to a Janet Johnstone August 1865 - she died 1872 Lochmaben, Dumfriesshire. No sign of him after his wife died in 1872 till the 1881 census. He may have returned to Glasgow.
On the 1881 census he was in Dyfsdale, Dumfriesshire with a Margaret 29 - John 13 - Mary 4. Did he re-marry?
Any information would be very much appreciated.
ADD George's parents were Joseph FLEMING and Mary FLEMING (Moffat)
cupcake
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Would like any information on my GGG Grandmother Christian MOFFAT (Fraser)
She is on the 1841 Census Robertson Street - Glasgow
Robertson Street
Christian MOFFAT 64 manager (my GGG Grandmother) What would manager mean?
Mary FLEMING 35 Draper (her daughter)
Isabella Morrison 30 ?
Andrew Moffat 22 (her son)
George FLEMING 12 (her grandson)
William FLEMING 10 ( her grandson)
She is not on the 1851 Census so she may have died there. It would appear she was a widow as no mention of her husband William MOFFAT.
Any information would be very much appreciated
cupcake
The above Christian MOFFAT is on the 1841 census and appears to be my ancestors. However, I have looked up the 1841 census on Scotlands People and she and the family aren't on it.
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Cupcake, I am beginning to get very confused.
Which of the family of William Moffat and Christian Fraser is your ancestor/ancestress?
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Cupcake, I am beginning to get very confused.
Which of the family of William Moffat and Christian Fraser is your ancestor/ancestress?
Mary FLEMING (MOFFAT) daughter b.1806 Dumfries. Her sons were George FLEMING b. 1830 William FLEMING b.1831
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The more I think about it, the more I think that putting '64' in the male age column in 1841 must have been an error by the enumerator.
I have in my tree a listing (though I can't find it at the moment) where the enumerator has put the name, marital status, age and occupation of the husband, then the birthplace of the wife, omitting the husband's birthplace, and the name, marital status and age of the wife. I assume that when he was copying the details from the schedule into the enumeration book he simply missed a line.
So enumerators are not infallible. What if this one managed to leave out a line, and the 64-year-old male is William?
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The more I think about it, the more I think that putting '64' in the male age column in 1841 must have been an error by the enumerator.
I have in my tree a listing (though I can't find it at the moment) where the enumerator has put the name, marital status, age and occupation of the husband, then the birthplace of the wife, omitting the husband's birthplace, and the name, marital status and age of the wife. I assume that when he was copying the details from the schedule into the enumeration book he simply missed a line.
So enumerators are not infallible. What if this one managed to leave out a line, and the 64-year-old male is William?
I honestly do not know. The only doubt I have is, William would have been 69 in1841 (he was born 1772). That said, I can see where you are coming from, as enumerators are not infallible.
I have been trying for years to find William & Christian's deaths, just keep finding their children :(
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Would I have to go to Glasgow, Mitchell Library to get information regarding the Poor House, Barony Glasgow 1875.
cupcake
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So enumerators are not infallible. What if this one managed to leave out a line, and the 64-year-old male is William?
That seems a very likely explanation.
From my snip (above), it's quite clearly in the male column and the occupation is manager. SPs reply to me (above) doesn't help in this case as they can only interpret what is on the page.
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So enumerators are not infallible. What if this one managed to leave out a line, and the 64-year-old male is William?
That seems a very likely explanation.
From my snip (above), it's quite clearly in the male column and the occupation is manager. SPs reply to me (above) doesn't help in this case as they can only interpret what is on the page.
I do agree with you both. Thank you.
cupcake
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The only doubt I have is, William would have been 69 in 1841 (he was born 1772).
How do you know for certain that he was the one born in 1772, if you can't find him in a census and you don't have a date of death and age at death?
There are 54 surviving baptism records of William Moffats (of varying spellings) in the Church of Scotland registers between 1760 and 1780, of whom 16 were baptised in Dumfries-shire. One of them was baptised in Dumfries itself on 9 May 1776, and would have been 65 on the date of the 1841 census if he survived.
Just because the one baptised in 1772 seems to fit, you cannot assume that he is the right one. Without other evidence, you cannot even assume that he was born in Dumfries, or even in Dumfries-shire rather than in one of the neighbouring counties. You need to look for evidence other than the parish registers, and that will not be easy to find.
The search isn't helped by the fact that only the baptisms of William and Christian's sons John and Andrew contain their mother's name. You will need to check all the baptisms in Dumfries of all the children of William Moffat without a mother's name in order to get a more complete list of their children in order, and hope that they followed the naming tradition.
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The Glasgow Post Office directory of 1840-1841 list 3 William Moffats
- a surgeon, at 158 George Street
- a last and boot-tree maker at 108 Stockwell Street
- a grocer and spirit dealer at 656 Gallowgate
The second one can be discounted because he is easy to find in the 1841 census, aged 40, so too young to be your William Moffat.
The surgeon was aged 55 in the 1841, so born 1791-1796, so he too is also too young to be yours.
The grocer and spirit dealer was listed at 1004 Gallowgate in 1837-1838, at 656 Gallowgate in 1838-1839, and from 1839-1840 onwards the listing is Mrs William Moffat.
Formal etiquette would describe a married woman as Mrs followed by her husband's name. If she was a widow it would describe her as Mrs xxx yyyy where xxxx is her given name and yyyy is her husband's surname. However there is no guarantee that the compilers of the directory stuck to strict etiquette. The point being that the change from William Moffat to Mrs William Moffat does not necessarily mean that William Moffat had died. He might have retired from the business, perhaps owing to ill health, leaving his wife to run it.
If the business address had been in Robertson Street, it would have been reasonable to suppose that it was your William and Christian's business, but it's not, so the conclusion I arrive at is that the Glasgow Post Office directories are not going to help you. Nor will the valuation rolls, because at that time they don't name all the small householders.
So all this has been a rather unhelpful red herring, I suppose.
You might like to have a look at the directories for yourself. They're online at http://digital.nls.uk/directories/browse/pageturner.cfm?id=91047488
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The only doubt I have is, William would have been 69 in 1841 (he was born 1772).
How do you know for certain that he was the one born in 1772, if you can't find him in a census and you don't have a date of death and age at death?
There are 54 surviving baptism records of William Moffats (of varying spellings) in the Church of Scotland registers between 1760 and 1780, of whom 16 were baptised in Dumfries-shire. One of them was baptised in Dumfries itself on 9 May 1776, and would have been 65 on the date of the 1841 census if he survived.
Just because the one baptised in 1772 seems to fit, you cannot assume that he is the right one. Without other evidence, you cannot even assume that he was born in Dumfries, or even in Dumfries-shire rather than in one of the neighbouring counties. You need to look for evidence other than the parish registers, and that will not be easy to find.
The search isn't helped by the fact that only the baptisms of William and Christian's sons John and Andrew contain their mother's name. You will need to check all the baptisms in Dumfries of all the children of William Moffat without a mother's name in order to get a more complete list of their children in order, and hope that they followed the naming tradition.
I have William's baptisim from Scotlands People. 16th April 1772, Annan with the correct parents - James MOFFAT and Catherine MOFFAT(Dalgliesh).William & Christian Fraser were married in Annan 10 September 1796. If this is wrong where does that leave me? When I have credit I will look at the 9 May 1776.
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Scotlands People is down at the moment.
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I have William's baptisim from Scotlands People. 16th April 1772, Annan with the correct parents - James MOFFAT and Catherine MOFFAT(Dalgliesh).
Yes, but what other evidence have you to prove that the William Moffat who married Christian Fraser was the son of James Moffat and Catherine Dalgleish rather than some other William Moffat born around the same time? Perhaps even one whose baptism record has not survived?
If this is wrong where does that leave me?
Looking at a brick wall like the rest of us :(
Please don't misunderstand me. You may well be right, but you cannot assume anything on the basis of only the baptism and marriage records in the C of S parish registers without any corroborating evidence.
Did William Moffat and Christian Fraser name a daughter Catherine, for instance? If his mother's name was Catherine, you would expect his second daughter to be named Catherine after her. On the other hand, if he had more than two daughters and none was named Catherine, it would tend to suggest that his mother was not Catherine. But that's not infallible, of course.
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I agree with you regarding a daughter Catherine.
I haven't come across a Catherine as yet, the only daughter I have found is Mary B.1806 married to Joseph FLEMING, the rest were boys.
I will check later to see if there was a Catherine
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Have looked on Scotlands People and there are no Catherine MOFFAT births 1795/1806
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No, but that doesn't mean to say that there wasn't one whose baptism has not survived. I see that there were no baptisms of children in Dumfries with father William Moffat from 1796 to 1801. There could have been two children, or even three, in that space of five years. Then there is another gap of five years between Jannet in 1801 and the first Mary in 1806.
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T hank you for all that. I didn't know about the Jannet in 1801. William had sisters Janet and Mary - but I am surprised I haven't come across a Catherine, but as you mention, it doesn't mean to say that there wasn't one whose baptism has not survived.
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T hank you for all that. I didn't know about the Jannet in 1801. William had sisters Janet and Mary - but I am surprised I haven't come across a Catherine, but as you mention, it doesn't mean to say that there wasn't one whose baptism has not survived.
The Jannet in 1801 is in the list of children of at least two William Moffats in Dumfries posted upthread ^ by telmark.
However, again, you can't assume that this Jannet's mother was Christian Fraser. The reason for this is that there were, as telmark pointed out, apparently (at least) two William Moffats, both sons of William Moffats and both baptised in Dumfries within a month of one another - one on 22 February 1810 and one on 21 March 1810. It is conceivable that this is the sam baptism recorded twice, but IMO unlikely because the first one has a middle name and the second one doesn't.
As for the names of William's sisters, that's fine, assuming of course that he is the right William. You would expect him, if his mother was Catherine, to have a sister Catherine, but only if he had more than two sisters, because the tradition is to name the third daughter after the mother.
However it's the names of William's daughters that would help to confirm his identity, and with at least two gaps of 5 years each between children (or a gap of 11 years if Jannet b 1801 isn't the daughter of Christian Fraser) it's impossible to be certain.
It's a bit like trying to do a jigsaw puzzle with a third of the pieces missing! :(
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If possible I would head down to a place with scotlands people access for £15, and check each and every BMD to see what information is contained therein.
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If possible I would head down to a place with scotlands people access for £15, and check each and every BMD to see what information is contained therein.
We will see. Waiting to hear from the NRS in Edinburgh regarding Duke Street prison records.