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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: Alan Vincent on Monday 16 January 17 11:37 GMT (UK)
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I am trying to find out where my Grandfather Frank (or Patrick Vary) (Vary was spelt Very on his Birth cert, changed in 1945 to Vary), was between 1905 and 1919 when he joined the Army on the 1st Sept in Liverpool under the name Patrick Vary. He was born in a work house in Bedford on the 15th Feb 1902. To Ellen Very/Vary (Nee Reene) and Thomas Very/Vary When he joined the army he has given his birth date as 1st Aug 1901. Can anyone suggest where l can look to find his whereabouts between 1905 and 1919 please.
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Have you tried finding him in 1911 census? (we can't do lookups for it)
School registers might record his movements.
Was the address when he enlisted in 1919 the same or in the same area as Bedford?
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I have checked the 1911 census, but he does not appear on it. Bedford Councils Archivist have also checked this for me and they could not find him. As his mother was rumoured to be Irish he may have been in Ireland at the time. I have tried checking passage records for that time but could not find anything. I have checked his army records (we have copies of them) and the only address l have, is for his mother (listed as next of Kin) is in 1922 at 8 Gay (Gray) Street Liverpool.
Do you know how l could check school records ??
Thanks Alan.
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Did you check for him in 1911 census under initials in case he was in an institution?
Ireland was part of the U.K. so no records were kept of people travelling between Ireland and England, Scotland and Wales.
You can check the 1911 Irish census here- I'd try looking for him with first name and birthplace (England) if you don't see any obvious surname entries-
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/search/
School records will possibly be in county archives but unlikely to be indexed.
Have you applied for any workhouse records?
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I have tried the census records all ways, spelling variants, initials, etc. with no luck.
We did not apply for workhouse records as he left the workhouse 3 weeks after being born there. Apparently workhouse were used by the poor as places to give birth as they would get medical assistance whilst there. As his parents are listed as being Hawkers on his birth cert. l can only assume this was the situation.
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The workhouse records (if they exist) may give an address to which Ellen went on leaving after giving birth. It's worth a try.
Another thought - how sure can you be that the Frank Very b q1 1902 in Bedford is the same person as the Patrick Vary who gave his dob as Aug 1901?
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Thomas VARY m Ellen REEN Kensington London 1892 Q4 V1a P390
Did they have other children between 1892 and 1904?
Searching for them may locate the family if there are transcription errors
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Births Mar 1904 (>99%)
VERY Frank Sheppey 2a 1050
I presume you have this certificate?
Ignore this silly post! :-[
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There was a Thomas Daniel Vary mmn Reen b in Kensington in 1895. Unfortunately it looks as though he died in the same quarter.
I can't see any others. Were they travellers?
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Birth years can be out a bit from one record to the next but usually the date (day and month) are fairly close so I'd be concerned about the two dates you've found-
He was born in a work house in Bedford on the 15th Feb 1902. To Ellen Very/Vary (Nee Reene) and Thomas Very/Vary When he joined the army he has given his birth date as 1st Aug 1901.
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This is the correct one.
VARY, FRANK mothers maiden name REEN
GRO Reference: 1902 M Quarter in BEDFORD Volume 03B Page 300
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Whoops, my error, I copied the wrong one, didn't mean to pick up a 1904 birth in Sheppey at all!! lol
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Whoops, my error, I copied the wrong one, didn't mean to pick up a 1904 birth in Sheppey at all!! lol
;D and I meant to say that I couldn't find another child with the surname Very or Vary and the same MMN for 10 years either side of 1902.
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If Ellen was given as NOK in 1919, presumably Thomas wasn't around then. Now I can't see any appropriate deaths of a Thomas Vary/Very between 1901 - 1919 on freeBMD, so does this mean that either he wasn't dead but the parents had separated, or that he had died outside England and Wales?
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Whilst looking for the family in 1901 or 1911, I found a Thomas Vary, b Dublin, who was a costermonger (ie hawker). His "wife" was Alice, and their children had mmn Vickery.
There's no marriage for Vary/Vickery in the suggested timescale, but there are actually 2 marriages between a Thomas Vary and an Alice Vickery years later - in 1916 and then again (!) in 1929, both in Camberwell which is where this family lived in earlier censuses.
And that got me thinking. What if Thomas and Ellen's marital state was, shall we say, flexible? (only 2 children in 20 years is unusual, after all!) And what if surname usage was equally flexible?
That doesn't get us a lot further, but just to say that neither can I find any appropriate birth in the suggested county of Devon for the 10 yr old Frank R that I can see, "in care" in 1911 (is that cryptic enough not to count as a look up?)
This is probably completely irrelevant but in the absence of anything else obvious I was trying to think laterally.
I'm still a bit worried about whether Patrick born in Aug 1901 and Frank born in Feb 1902 are actually the same person.
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I'm still a bit worried about whether Patrick born in Aug 1901 and Frank born in Feb 1902 are actually the same person.
I've found the WW1 Surrey regimental Army rolls where Patrick is mentioned,it says he attested on 1/8/1922 at Kingston on Thames into the Queen's Royal West Surrey and was aged 21. He was a labourer,born in Bedford and his mother was Ellen Vary,36 Foster Road ,West Croydon. Sounds like he wasn't very good at maths or added a year to his age to make himself seem older.
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On the 1901 and 1911 census Thomas is listed as married to Alice (Vickery) although no marriage can be found, until 1916 and again in 1929. As Ellen Vary (Reene) died on the 16th Jan 1929 (l have copy of death cert) we believe they married bigamously in 1916 then again after Ellen death. They had 2 children from this marriage.
As mentioned earlier Frank/Patrick joined the army in 1919. We got his army records from the army number given on his marriage cert to my Grandmother so we know they are the correct records. No one knows were the name Patrick came from, l have asked my mother (his daughter) and her 3 brothers no one knows. We believe he lied to get in the army because he had such a terrible childhood.
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They do move about a lot don't they?
Bedford, West Croydon and then St Albans (and possibly other places in between)
Deaths Mar 1929
Vary Ellen age 58 St.Albans 3a 1523
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I'm still a bit worried about whether Patrick born in Aug 1901 and Frank born in Feb 1902 are actually the same person.
I've found the WW1 Surrey regimental Army rolls where Patrick is mentioned,it says he attested on 1/8/1922 at Kingston on Thames into the Queen's Royal West Surrey and was aged 21. He was a labourer,born in Bedford and his mother was Ellen Vary,36 Foster Road ,West Croydon. Sounds like he wasn't very good at maths or added a year to his age to make himself seem older.
But the very first post states that he joined up in 1919 in Liverpool!
??? ???
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I couldn't find a 1919 record just this one.
Name: Patrick Vary
Birth Year: abt 1901
Birth Place: Bedford, Bedfordshire
Event Date: 1 Aug 1922
Event Place: Kingston-on-Thames
Age: 21
Regiment Number: 7076155
Regiment: Queen's Royal West Surrey
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Carol you are correct; Patrick Vary but born 13th Feb 1902. Bedford. Army Number Correct.
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So far, as far as I can tell, we have --
different reported birth dates
different reported names (Frank? Patrick?)
unknown wherabouts
Possible desertioin by father with a subsequent bigamous marriage (but if this was the right Thomas, then Frank/Patrick was conceived whilst he supposedly "married" to Alice Vickery so that could open a whole new can of worms)
different dates and places for attestation into the army
With all that, I wouldn't rule out 10 yr old Frank Reen as a Barnardo's boy.
Just to add to the fun, there are various court reports naming Ellen Vary -- don't know if it's the same Ellen, but one in 1893 for allegedly stabbing her husband, and many over the years, mostly in the south east of England, for being drunk and disorderly.
In Oct 1902, one Ellen Vary was begging in New Bond St and George St - this was reported in the Bath Chronicle and I get the impression these were local addresses, not London ones. She appeared in court with a baby in her arms, saying her husband had deserted her.
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Alan, do you have a copy of your grandfather's birth certificate? I'm curious as to who registered the birth - was it Ellen, Thomas or someone else?
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Yes, several mentions of an Ellen Vary in the papers, usually a hawker and drunk and disorderly.
IN 1923 there are a couple of pieces, one mentioning Ellen Vary (54) of Foster Road, Croydon.
Also in 1901, a mention of an Ellen Brown alias Vary, 34.
Also a mention in 1923 where an Ellen Vary arrested in Portsmouth, stated she came from Ireland,and was looking for her son.
Several mentions but different locations so hard to say its the same person, indeed if it is your Ellen.
Cathy
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Indeed we can't be sure, but it's an habitual pattern of behaviour and an unusual name and I anticipate that at least some (if not all) refer to the same person.
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Annie65115, sorry for delay in replying to your question, yes l do have copy of birth cert, details are Born 13th Feb 1902 Union Workhouse Bedford. Name Frank, the birth was registered by V. J. Barlow, Master Union Workhouse on the 22nd Feb 1902.
As for Ellen, l have copies of newspaper reports where she was arrested for being Drunk & Disorderly on 3 occasions, firstly The Kent & Sussex Courier July 18th 1900, The Bath Chronicle Oct 30th 1902, (also mentions baby in arms, my Grandfather ??) then The Gloucester Citizen Dec 19th 1902 again mention of baby in arms. (She got around).