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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Lancashire => England => Lancashire Lookup Requests => Topic started by: NorahEllyn on Friday 13 January 17 04:40 GMT (UK)
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I'm seeking the Catholic baptismal record of:
Catherine Carroll, born January 1, 1876 in Liverpool, England. She was born to a single woman Winifred Carroll.
I'm not sure if the church would baptize an illegitmate child, but as she was confirmed a Catholic when she sailed as a British Home Child, I assume this was the case.
As her mother married at Francis Xavier church in 1880, it seemed logical to assume that was their parish church.
Thanks so much in advance!
Norah
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Liverpool Catholic Baptisms are available to view on Ancestry. I cannot see a baptism for Catherine. St Xavier baptisms are included in the collection.
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I can't find an RC baptism. Lots of illegitimate children were baptised in RC churches and by other denominations. Were did you get the date of birth from? Do you have her birth certificate? If so where was she born? This appears to be the birth index as the GRO don't have a second parent's surname:-
Name: Catherine Carroll
Registration Year: 1876
Registration Quarter: Jan-Feb-Mar
Registration district: Liverpool
Volume: 8b
Page: 197
https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/default.asp
Blue
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As her mother married at Francis Xavier church in 1880, it seemed logical to assume that was their parish church.
Thanks so much in advance!
Norah
Can you give us the details of this marriage. The only Liverpool RC marriage around this time was at Holy Cross in 1885, Edward Gildea and Winifred Carroll, is this the marriage? According to one online index this Winifred Carroll was "wid.FEINLEY". I don't have access to the Liverpool RC record images at this moment this is the source:-
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~hibernia/mar/carne2casy.htm
Blue
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There is a marriage at St Francis Xavier in 1880 but for Winifred CURRAN, daughter of Edward Curran and William Hickey, son of Robert. 14 September 1880.
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Hi, and thank you for the responses.
Yes, that is her birth record. Her birth certificate states:
She was born on the 2nd of January 1876 at 5 Court, Ben Johnson Street, Liverpool. Her name was Catherine and her mother was Winifred Carroll, domestic servant (who was illiterate and made her mark on the 25th of January 1876.)
Catherine seems to have been hidden for her first eight years. All I have been able to find is her birth certificate and sketchy information about her shipment to Canada. Through years of research I determined that Catherine was taken to the Liverpool (Nugent) Catholic Protective Society for Children and subsequently sent to Canada via the British Home Children program on the SS Circassian. The ship departed 7 September 1882 from Liverpool, calling at Londonderry on 8 September 1882 and arriving Quebec 18 Sep 1882.
She was placed in Ottawa with a hotel keeper and his wife but the wife died two years after her arrival. Catherine ran away from the drudgery of her place as a hotel servant after her foster father remarried a girl who was the same age as Catherine.
There was another child, Francis Blake, who was born around 1873 in Liverpool, but no birth record can be found (so obviously I wish I could find his information as well). He always said his father's name was Francis Blake as well.
Francis Blake's descendants (some of whom I've contacted) knew nothing about his sister. He married and worked as a dock labourer. His mother remained living with him until her death in 1919 of respiratory illness.
Her mother married Philip Clarke at St. Peters (not Francis Xavier--D'OH), on 4 November 1878, in Liverpool. Phillip was murdered in a bar fight in September 1882, two weeks after Catherine left for Canada.
As I have already been through the available RC baptisms on Ancestry, it's correct to say there is nothing there to be found for Catherine or her brother. My understanding is that some records of the RC churches, Francis Xavier included, are only available at the Liverpool records office. This is why I am hoping that when someone visits the library they might be able to look up Catherine (and her brother if possible).
She should be in the workhouse records, but she's not. In fact, there's NOTHING about her in any documentation at all in Liverpool. I have lots of information on her mother from workhouse records to her history as an "unfortunate girl" of the streets, but nothing on Catherine or her brother.
Thanks again for any help you might be able to give to me.
Norah Dennis
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Hello,
1881 3632/13/19
1 House, 5 Court, Ben Johnson Street Liverpool
Catherine Carroll 5 yrs born Liverpool is a lodger in a household - Corrigan.
There is also an Ann Carroll 33 yrs.
Have you checked this one?
The Clarks are living at 4 House, 5 Court - just 3 houses away. Francis is with Philip and Winifred.
Heywood
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Well found Heywood that'll be her:-
http://search.findmypast.co.uk/record/browse?id=gbc%2f1881%2f4360364%2f00029
Her mother is on the next page, Winifred Clark in Court 5, House 4:-
http://search.findmypast.co.uk/record/browse?id=gbc%2f1881%2f4360364%2f00030
Blue
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I just added to my post Blue after I found Winifred.
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I wonder if Blake was a mistransciption of Clark/e which stuck :-\
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Hi there,
Thanks so much. Yes, I have 1841, 1851, 1861, 1871, 1881, 1891, 1901, and 1911 census returns for Winifred.
Ann was her sister, and in 1881 my Catherine was living with her and Phillips mother who lived across the court.
I wondered that about Blake/Clarke but as Francis kept the name Blake all his life and it was never different in any of the documentation I did find on him, and Winifred has no living arrangements with Philip Clarke except in 1881 which was a few years after they married, I suspect that Winifred was actually involved with someone named Blake. If I could only find his birth certificate, we'd be able to find out!
:D
Norah
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Norah,
You wrote:
'Catherine seems to have been hidden for her first eight years. All I have been able to find is her birth certificate and sketchy information about her shipment to Canada.'
Which led me to believe that you could find no trace of Catherine. ::) :)
Do you have Francis's baptism before I post it. :)
Heywood
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No I don't! You found Francis??? :D
Sorry, I should have made it clearer that I had that 1881 census return. I have a DUH this morning.
Norah
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I just found the marriage record from Francis Xavier on Francis Blake's marriage to Harriet Hirst in September, 1900. He states on that record his father's name is Michael. But the actual marriage certificate from the GRO shows his father as Francis Blake. How about that for confusion?
Thanks again!
Norah
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Yes, I thought I had made a great find ;) although I couldn't understand how you had missed her!
Francis's baptism doesn't help much
St Anthony's
Francis Blake
Birth 28 May 1873
Baptism 15 June 1873
Father: Nicholas Blake. I wonder if that should read Michael?
Mother: Winnefred Carr
Godparents: Arthur Fagan and Margaret Kay
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It doesn’t look like Catherine was baptised the coverage on Ancestry for this period is the same as will be at Liverpool Record Office where these records were scanned. If we can’t find her on Ancestry then the baptism mustn’t be there.
This is the baptism coverage available on Ancestry for the RC churches nearest to Ben Jonson Street:-
All Souls, 1872-1906
Holy Cross, 1849-1906
Our Lady of Reconciliation, 1854-1906
St Anthony, 1804-1906
St Brigid, 1870-1906
St Joseph, 1845-1906
St Sylvester, 1875-1906
Other RC churches centrally located in Liverpool:-
St Mary’s Edmund Street, 1741-1895
St Nicholas Copperas Hill, 1814-1905
St Peter’s Seel Street, 1788-1890
Blue
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Whoo! Yes you did make a great find! I have no idea how I managed to miss that, but it's probably because I'm not great with the new Ancestry slider-searches. That's my excuse and I'm sticking to it.
Thank you so so much!
Yes, I wonder if Michael is his name or if Winifred just made it up as she went along. From everything I've learned about her and her family (they were victims of the Irish potato famine, coming over to Liverpool for work only to find poverty. Her father, Francis, died of typhoid in the Liverpool workhouse and I have no idea what became of her mother, Ann.)
The family's story is so sad, and it culminated by Catherine finally finding stability and happiness in her husband, Charles Shaw, in Quebec until she died, age 30, giving birth to my grandmother in 1906. (The children's story from there is equally as tragic.)
Winifred stated that she had given birth to 3 children when she was living with Francis in 1911 on Comer Street in Liverpool. She stated that 2 of the children were dead. I will always wonder if she guessed that Catherine had preceded her, or if she was informed by Nugent.
You've opened up a whole NEW set of research for me, I'll always be so grateful!
Norah
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Hi Blue,
Yes, I feared that was the case. This was a last ditch effort to see if she was hidden somewhere in the records and missed. But I think you might be right.
It is sad though that Winifred had Francis baptized and kept him with her (this is poignantly evident in 1881 when Francis is residing with his mother, but Catherine is with her aunt and step-grandmother), even sending Catherine to Nugent. Let's just say it's never done much to increase any respect I might have had for her, but I have to consistently remind myself, it was a different time.
Norah
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For benefit of others following this thread:-
http://www.bac-lac.gc.ca/eng/discover/immigration/immigration-records/home-children-1869-1930/immigration-records/Pages/item.aspx?IdNumber=13849
Blue
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From everything I've learned about her and her family (they were victims of the Irish potato famine, coming over to Liverpool for work only to find poverty. Her father, Francis, died of typhoid in the Liverpool workhouse and I have no idea what became of her mother, Ann.)
When did they come over? I thought you had the family on the 1841 Census pre-Famine? Irish people settled in Liverpool throughout the 1800s the peak was c1847 around the time of the Famine.
The Victorians were two faced they had charities and institutions to look after people but they also discouraged people from seeking help through the harshness of those institutions. There was poverty in Liverpool amongst Irish and non-Irish but conditions were better than in Ireland and opportunities were better in terms of employment and self improvement.
Blue
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omgosh, my brain must be turning to mush today. I don't have the 1841 census for them, I think I typed that without thinking--and yes, you're absolutely right about the timing of the family residing in Liverpool.
I have the family living in Liverpool in 1851 when her father, Francis, was working as a dock labourer. Though I WISH I could find travel records for them from Ireland (or just ANYthing that gave me the county in which they were born), Ann, the sister was born in Ireland around 1845, and Winifred was born in Liverpool in 1848, so my best guess is they came over right at the time of the famine.
And I suspect the duplicity of the Victorians, particularly where the poor were concerned, is what keeps them so fascinating to us today.
Thank you so much for your help!
Norah
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I just found the marriage record from Francis Xavier on Francis Blake's marriage to Harriet Hirst in September, 1900. He states on that record his father's name is Michael. But the actual marriage certificate from the GRO shows his father as Francis Blake. How about that for confusion?
Thanks again!
Norah
http://www.liverpoolhistoryprojects.co.uk/liverpoolrcmarriages/marriages.php
1900
blake
search
a record is £3 - click on Request Form :)
http://www.liverpoolhistoryprojects.co.uk may be of interest to you
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I just found the marriage record from Francis Xavier on Francis Blake's marriage to Harriet Hirst in September, 1900. He states on that record his father's name is Michael. But the actual marriage certificate from the GRO shows his father as Francis Blake. How about that for confusion?
Thanks again!
Norah
http://www.liverpoolhistoryprojects.co.uk/liverpoolrcmarriages/marriages.php
1900
blake
search
a record is £3 - click on Request Form :)
http://www.liverpoolhistoryprojects.co.uk may be of interest to you
Al
I don't think Liverpool History Projects provide a record service any more. I tried to get a record from them myself a while ago, a baptism from an RC church in Lydiate that's not on Ancestry. No response from them. Other people have mentioned on Facebook that they got no response.
Regards,
Blue
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It looks as though Norah has the record. It is on Ancestry with father as Michael Blake.
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Just read a newspaper article about Philip Clarke's death. They were probably on the whisky at the time. Two friends having a disagreement. The spirit vaults they were drinking in can be identified through the mention of Mr Grace. He was Isaac Grace at 40 Scotland Road. It was called Faugh-a-Ballagh a phrase based on an Irish Gaelic war cry used by Irishmen in the British Army that translates as "clear the way". It was on Scotland Road between Gay Street and Ben Jonson Street next door to another spirit vaults that was on the south corner of Scotland Road and Gay Street.
Blue
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Oh that is great! I've added it to Philip's family information. It must have been some fight. I have the inquest from the Liverpool Echo and the trial transcript for Edward McGuinness.
Winifred testified at her husband's inquest that he came into the house, said he was "killed" and fell over, going to bed later on that night. A day or two later, he went to the workhouse hospital and he died there from a ruptured bladder and peritonitis after accusing McGuinness of kicking him.
The whole mess started when McGuinness told Philip he would not serve him and it escalated into an outside fight.
He considered Clarke a "dangerous character" which is why he wouldn't allow Clarke to be served that night.
The defendant actually got off with a 20 shilling fine and had to pay all costs.
Thank you so much for the information! That's the kind of thing that adds real interest to these very human stories.
Norah
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I think you remembered that wrong. Edward McGuinness was a shoemaker, aged 29 years. The two men were drinking in the bar and got into a quarrel over some trivial matter. They went into the yard and had a fight. "Clarke fell, and the barmen in the place stopped the fight, and subsequently the men shook hands."
McGuinness was found guilty of the manslaughter of Philip Clarke and sentenced to six months' imprisonment with hard labour. Isaac Grace was charged separately of permitting drunkenness on the premises. The two men were, "supplied with drink in the public-house, whilst drunk".
Grace was fined 20s and costs. The following year Grace was refused the renewal of his license but with the support of others vouching for his good conduct his appeal was successful. I'm not certain the premises was Faugh-a-Ballagh at that time. It definitely appears on an 1891 map as Faugh-a-Ballagh. In the 1860s it was the "Dog and Partridge" so there was a change of name at some point.
Blue
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You are absolutely right. I was consulting my notes and failed to see that the information I was referencing was the trial of Isaac Grace, who owned the public-house, 40, Scotland-road.
Thanks to everyone's help today, not only have I found MASSES of Catholic documentation for the family, I've even found that Winifred had another sister I didn't even know existed. I am so appreciative of your help!
I wish I could substantiate poor Catherine's life in Liverpool, but at least I've moved further on her brother. This means the world to me.
But I've had enough DUH moments today to either justify getting a new pair of reading glasses or maybe I should just stop spending 14 hours staring at the monitor.
Norah
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I suppose with regard to substantiating Catherine's life in Liverpool, you mean the time and records for her entry into the 'Nugent' system.
The 1881 census shows where she was staying for that night only. It could well be that she was lodging along with her aunt all the time but her mother was close by and as Catherine was also born in that same Court, there seems to be some sort of permanency there.
In fact, I recall children raised by relatives when I was a child.
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I don't know how much research you've done on checking/searching the Roman Catholic institutional records. In recent times Liverpool Record Office received RC institutional records that were previously with the Liverpool RC Archdiocese. You could contact Liverpool Record Office with Catherine's details:-
http://liverpool.gov.uk/contact-us/service-area/liverpool-record-office/
Blue
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heywood, you're absolutely right that it wasn't unusual (and still isn't) for family members to raise their sibling's children--and I've diligently tried not to judge Winifred as I have documented as much as I could of her history and see the horror of poverty clasping her life. Whether she wanted to be a good mother to Catherine or not, I still find it sad that Francis remained with Winifred throughout her life, yet Catherine doesn't even seem to have been baptized (though that baptismal certificate might still be out there somewhere). I suppose it's possible Philip Clarke didn't care for Catherine and it was easier to keep her at arms length (he was, after all, described as a "dangerous character" and his autopsy revealed he was a strong, muscular man).
But, yes, there's no way to determine the true situation until I can find the records of Catherine's intake into the Nugent care system as that's all I have as documented proof of everything. Until I have to piece things together and rely somewhat on supposition.
The only absolutes I have are from the time Catherine was sent to Canada and bits of that are still a mystery. My grandmother, who Catherine died giving birth to in 1906, had always been told that Catherine escaped from an orphanage in Maine. Only once I found Catherine's marriage certificate, and the 1901 Canadian census could I finally piece it all together.
I didn't even know where she was buried. With some serious begging, I finally found her through a sextant's record buried in an unmarked grave in a plot owned by her brother-in-law at the local Methodist church in Kazabazua, Quebec. I think the loss of his wife, father and baby son in 2 years period of time was too much for my great-grandfather and he couldn't recover.
The sad life of Catherine continued even after her death: overwhelmed, her husband sent his children, all six of them, to his sister and ran away. It wasn't until his sister also died in childbirth that my grandmother's older sister escaped from what my grandmother called her "mean and cruel" uncle with my grandmother that my grandmother had a basic, stable home. Even then her sister raised her only until the authorities insisted her father retrieve her through threats of placing her in an institution. From then on her life was that of a housekeeper and cook and my grandmother never went back to school. She only ever received a 3rd-grade education. It's really been a very sad multi-generational story.
I wish my grandmother had lived long enough, though, for me to share with her the meager portions of her mother's life I have found. All she ever had was the photo I have here on my profile--a lovely woman with sad eyes very much like mine--who looked at me from a silver frame on my grandmother's nightstand all my life. It's kind of an obsession now--to really find and understand Catherine--and that's why after 28 years I'm still trying to get those bits and pieces and I'm so appreciative of anyone, like you and Blue, who offer to help.
Blue, THANK you, I will definitely contact them. I've tried everything to find the records for the Nugent system, even taking the archivist out to lunch when I flew to England 12 years ago. She did a hunt on what she had but NOTHING could be found. I keep hoping though--you just never know.
Thank you both!!!
Norah
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Norah,
I really do sympathise with you. Poor Catherine's life continuing to be marked with sadness makes it worse. However, Winifred might well have tried to be a good mother for that brief time we don't know.
We still see how a mother might put the man before the children - again we do not know.
I do hope you can find something out from Blue's suggestion.
All good wishes
Heywood
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Thanks heywood. Isn't it funny how the events of one human being can affect so many even after they're gone?
AND in the meantime, out of the blue (no pun intended), I received information that the LAC (Library and Archives of Canada) have SIX PAGES of information on the BHC Catherine Carroll who was sent via the Liverpool Catholic Children's Protection Society which they can digitize and send to me in 10 days!!!!! Catherine WAS originally placed in Ottawa and I'm absolutely certain now I'm on the right track there. Really excited.
I am so crossing my fingers.
Thanks so much for your help,
Norah
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Oh please post if there is anything to share. Fingers crossed for you. :)