RootsChat.Com
Research in Other Countries => Europe => Topic started by: Greaves on Wednesday 11 January 17 16:28 GMT (UK)
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I am trying to find the birth record of the above very distant relative. All I know is that she was born somewhere in Bavaria in 1850. Her mother's name was Gertrude.
Any help would be very welcome.
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If it helps, I think that Mary Caroline and her mother Gertrude Elizabeth, obviously Anglicised versions of their birth names, must have travelled to England between 1850 and 1855.
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Not much to go on with 'somewhere in Bavaria'. There is no equivalent to freebmd for German records.
How do you know they travelled to England by 1855 - did her mother marry/remarry there? Was there a sibling born there?
What do you know of Mary Caroline's later life - marriage, death, etc?
Do you know the religious affiliation of her family (Lutheran, Catholic, other...)
Ideally we'd be able to trace a likely town/city where the family originated to narrow the search.
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I'm afraid that "somewhere in Bavaria" is the best I can do.
I know that Mary Caroline Grassman was born in Bavaria in c1850 and that her sister was born in Hackney in c1855. So Mary and her mother must have travelled sometime between 1850 and 1855.
I know that Mary Caroline married into the MENTZEL family and lived in Marylebone and Willesden, dying in 1938.
As for religious affiliation, I have no definitive knowledge. Given the Bavarian connection, I would have guessed Catholic, but then some of her children were baptised in Anglican churches.
So yes, I know the information I possess is minimal, I was just hoping that some one who knows their way around the records might come up with something.
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Hi
In the 1891 Census Mary is shown born c1850 in Baiern Prussia (Northern Bavaria now)
RG12
Piece number 91
Folio 12
Page 22
I believe Baiern is now Bayern
Hope this is of interest
Regards
Chris
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You may already have found the following marriages in FreeBMD:
Kurolina [should read Karolina] Marian Grassman and Gustav Richard Hentyel - Q2 1870 Pancras
There is also marriage for Gustus Richard Mentzel in Q2 1870 Pancras added by hand.
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Here is the marriage of Otto Johannes Herrlich
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I must be missing something but where does Otto Johannes Herrlich fit into this? ???
Does her English marriage certificate not list a father's name and occupation? what about the sister's 1855 certificate- any father listed?
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What was her sister's name? Do you have her birth certificate?
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Hi,
- Baiern is now Bayern - the answer is yes.
- Baiern Prussia is not existent in 1850, but Ansbach and Bayreuth (both Prussian) became a part of Bavaria in 1806
- Bavaria is catholic, Franconia lutheran or catholic, Ansbach and Bayreuth luth. or reformed
- Bavarian Palatinate is united with stress on reformed,or catholic ...
Regards
Rudolf from Palatinate
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Sorry, I think I am a little bit crazy ???
The dokument is for someone else.
Excuse me
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Most of the Bavarian Grasmann are from Miltenberg county or southern Bavaria - both roman-catholic areas.
http://wiki-commons.genealogy.net/images/geogen/4/48/48b991bc39729484436e23e90f633d14_de.png (http://wiki-commons.genealogy.net/images/geogen/4/48/48b991bc39729484436e23e90f633d14_de.png)
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The Grassmann ot Graßmann might be protestant or of Prussian origin.
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Thanks for the help so far.
My prime interest is in a man named John DANIEL(S), who I believe was born in 1815 in North London. I then believed he served with the army of the East India Company, being discharged in 1855.
In 1861 there is a John DANIELS (aged 45) living in Hackney with a wife Gertrude (40, born in Germany), a daughter Mary (11, born in Germany), a daughter Elizabeth (5, born in Hackney), a daughter Sarah (2, born in Hackney) and a son George William (6 d, born in Hackney).
By 1871, John (56), Elizabeth (50, born in Germany) and George William (10) are still living in Hackney. Note that according to her death certificate, John's wife was called Gertrude Elizabeth. Their daughter Sarah died in 1867. I believe that Mary Caroline Grassman (the Mary from 1861), who had married Gustav Richard Mentzel in 1870.
In 1881, John (66) and Elizabeth (61) are still living in Hackney. Interestingly, they make another appearance in the 1881 census with Gustave and Mary Caroline in Marylebone, though John seems to have aged by 4 years.
1891 finds them still living in Hackney, whilst 1901 finds them living in Hackney with George James (51) and Elizabeth James (46). I believe that that Elizabeth James is the daughter from 1861, the Elizabeth Crossman who married George James in 1877.
John DANIEL(S) died in 1902 and Gertrude Elizabeth in 1903, both in Hackney.
Mary Caroline Grassman - b c1850 Germany, married Gustav Richard Mentzel in 1870. Her father according to her marriage certificate which I possess was a Joseph Grassman.
Elizabeth Crossman [anglicised Grassman?] - b c1855, Hackney, married George JAMES in 1877. I can't find a reliable birth certificate. I have one for 1854 Whitechapel, where the father is Peter Crossman, a labourer. I don't think this is correct. I do, however, possess her marriage certificate, where her father is named as Daniel Crossman.
Sarah DANIELS - b 1859, Hackney, d 1867 Hackney. I possess both birth and death certificates for Sarah. Her father was definitely John DANIEL(S) and her MMN was PONTE.
George William DANIELS - b 1861, Hackney. I possess his birth certificate. His father was definitely John DANIEL(S) and his MMN was PONT.
There are several problems:
(1) There are at least two fathers, possibly three. Clearly Sarah and George were fathered by John DANIELS, whereas Mary Caroline and Elizabeth were fathered by Joseph Grassman and Daniel Crossman, who may or may not be the same person.
(2) I do not possess birth certificates for either Mary Caroline or Elizabeth.
(3) I cannot find a marriage for John DANIEL(S) to Gertrude Elizabeth. There is one to an Elizabeth RHODES in Hackney in 1957, but I can't reconcile this to any of the possible surnames, i.e. Grassman, Crossman or PONT(E).
One last point, at various times John is described as an army pensioner, labourer, gardener and french polisher. This is consistent with many of the reports concerning his natural/step children.
Sorry for the long post, but I wanted to share what I know about the family to save others time and energy.
As always, I would be grateful for any help or clarifications.