RootsChat.Com
England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => London and Middlesex => Topic started by: OzJen on Thursday 05 January 17 05:20 GMT (UK)
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Hi Rootschatters,
I am trying to find the record of the g-g-grandfather's criminal trial, which I believe occurred at the Westminster City General Sessions on 16 Nov 1842. According to the transportation record, he was found guilty and sentenced to transportation for 7 years. Before transportation, he may have been sent to Newgate Gaol and then to Parkhurst before being transported as an exile and arriving in Port Phillip Bay in 1847 on the Thomas Arbuthnot.
Although I have all the above, which I think is correct, I cannot find a record of his trial, and so I don't have any of the information that this record could potentially reveal.
Can anyone help me work out how to find this, please? I've looked on Old Bailey online and through Ancestry to no avail.
Thanks in advance,
OzJen
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"Parkhurst, which from 1835-1862 was a convict prison for boys " -- indicates youth.
Someone may know if young offenders records were sealed in those days.
This could be part of the Corporation of London records which I have used on microfiche or Microfilm some 30 years ago -- but I can not recollect where -- only 3 possibilities for where -- State Library of Victoria, Genealogical Society of Victoria (though that would be the least likely of the 3) or University of Melbourne Library (either Baillieu or the Law Library). It may be that they are now on line.
The material I examined was very similar to the Old Bailey trials but in summary.
The names on the Old Bailey records do not necessarily match those on the convict indents - spelling etc not necessarily being wonderful then.
I assume you have looked at the Australian Joint Copying Project records -- if only to see if there were any Hulk records for your lad.
Also it may be worth looking at what is on-line about "exiles" -- someone may have published a how to guide -- and also the county records office.
All the best
pH
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I would look at Parkhurst Boys: State Library of Western Australia cms.slwa.wa.gov.au/dead_reckoning/government_archival.../n-s/parkhurst_boys
if I were you and also google Parkhurst Boys or Parkhurst Goal.
regards
pH
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Thanks for your valuable tips, phenolphthalein! I'll follow them up this evening!
Cheers,
OJ
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I am trying to find the record of the g-g-grandfather's criminal trial, which I believe occurred at the Westminster City General Sessions on 16 Nov 1842. According to the transportation record, he was found guilty and sentenced to transportation for 7 years. Before transportation, he may have been sent to Newgate Gaol and then to Parkhurst before being transported as an exile and arriving in Port Phillip Bay in 1847 on the Thomas Arbuthnot.
Although I have all the above, which I think is correct, I cannot find a record of his trial, and so I don't have any of the information that this record could potentially reveal.
Can anyone help me work out how to find this, please? I've looked on Old Bailey online and through Ancestry to no avail.
Records of the Westminster Sessions are held at London Metropolitan Archives, in series WJ.
They are not part of the Corporation of London records, and they are not available online.
There will be no trial transcripts of the kind seen on the Old Bailey site, just the basic details of charge, indictment, verdict, sentence, etc., which you probably already have from other sources.
Before being transferred to Parkhurst he is more likely to have been held in the Tothill Fields prison in Westminster than at Newgate (which was chiefly for Old Bailey cases).
What exactly are you trying to find out? Have you tried the newspapers?
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Thanks for the information, Bookbox. Shame it's not online. I'm on the other side of the world to the London Metropolitan Archives.
I'm trying to find out:
1. Details of his 'crime'
2. Any details relating to his family or place of birth that are cited.
3. Any information about where he was sent before Parkhurst. I've never heard of the Tothill Fields prison before, but perhaps you are right about that, if Newgate was mainly for Old Bailey cases.
No, I haven't tried the newspapers. I don't have a subscription to the British Newspaper Archive. I will go there now, though, and see what can be found using the free search facility.
OJ
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Parkhurst Prison registers for this date can be viewed on FindMyPast, in the series England & Wales, Crime, Prisons & Punishment, 1770-1935 (subscription or credits needed). The entry should at least state his offence and give some details of his imprisonment.
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Excellent! Thank you! I'm on to it now! ;)
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Can you give us a name to look for, OzJen? Looking at the list of convicts on the Thomas Arbuthnot, the most likely candidate appears to be Edmond Hammond but he was convicted in 1843 (either 16 October or 7 November - sources differ) not 1842. He was convicted of stealing a book.
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Hi Shaun,
My fellow is Thomas Carr, convicted on 16 Nov 1842. I'm not sure of his age as I've gathered a variety of birthdates in my travels. He may have been 20 years old at the time of conviction, but he may also have been younger.
Thanks for your help!
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Thomas Carr aged 12 in early 1843 per the Parkhurst Register. Convicted at Westminster Sessions 16 November 1842 of stealing a bo? (box?) of Figs.
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Thank you!!!! :-*
Aged 12????
That's much younger than I expected!! (When I said 'younger' I meant a year or two. That is a surprise.
Sounds like a hungry kid though, doesn't it - probably intended to eat the whole box!
Much appreciated,
OJ
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How sad this is. Received from Bridewell, Westminster Gaol 13.3.1843. Aged 12, for stealing a box of figs. Cant read or write, occupation labourer. Character "Well conducted, but sadly neglected."
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Thomas was aged 17 when he arrived in 1847 which is consistent with being 12 in 1842, occupation Bricklayer. Engaged as a Groom by Major Newman for one year. Have you tried to find him in 1841?
Debra :D
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Thank you, Dundee and Middlesbrough. Yes, it is sad, isn't it. There's a real pathos about that description of 'well conducted but sadly neglected' that really strikes home, I think. He must have been a little, lost, perhaps even slightly overwhelmed, 'Oliver Twist' character in some ways. Certainly a boy like this in English gaols of the 1840s or living out on the streets of London would have had a hard time of it. I've learned more about him as a person over the last 24 hours that helps me understand some of his reported attitudes in later life.
So far, I've not found him in 1841, but I'm wondering if he may still have been back in Galway. I know from his death certificate that his father was 'Pat Carr' and there is at least one man by that name that I can find getting poverty relief in Galway. Trouble is that so far I haven't been able to access any of the actual records to get any further with finding out whether it's the same fellow or not. Pat Carr could have been quite a common name in the county and the records in Galway of Pat Carrs getting the relief go well past 1842, so if it is the same person it may not be anything to do with my Thomas.
This is one reason why I have been trying to find the description of the trial in Westminster Sessions. I was hoping it would tell me a few more 'life details' for Thomas so I could work out how/why he'd gone from Galway to London, whether he was there on his own, things like that. It seems that unless one actually goes in to the LMA, that's not possible. Sometimes it's very frustrating trying to do this from outside the up the UK!!
OJ
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This is one reason why I have been trying to find the description of the trial in Westminster Sessions. I was hoping it would tell me a few more 'life details' for Thomas so I could work out how/why he'd gone from Galway to London, whether he was there on his own, things like that.
As already indicated in my reply #4 above, you will not find this sort of information in the Westminster Sessions records.
The most likely piece of useful information there will probably be the indictment, as this should state the parish where the offence was committed. At least that will place him within the London area. Indictments are usually filed within the sessions rolls (WJ/SR or MJ/SR).
It seems that unless one actually goes in to the LMA, that's not possible. Sometimes it's very frustrating trying to do this from outside the up the UK!!
It shouldn't be an insurmountable problem. Two suggestions ...
* Email LMA and commission them to do the research (£80/hour)
* Email LMA and ask them exactly which records they have that might help your search (this advice is normally free of charge). Then re-post to the London & Middlesex Lookups board, quoting their reply, and ask if anyone here can help. The sessions records are very extensive (over 5000 items, spread across several different series), so anyone who agrees to help you will benefit hugely from having LMA guidance before they start looking.
ask.lma AT cityoflondon.gov.uk
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There was a Patrick Carr born Loughrea circa 1825 who served in the 5th Fusiliers from 1839 to 1852. A possible sibling perhaps.
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Thanks for the advice, Bookbox. £80/hr is beyond my capabilities, but I will get in touch with them and follow your other suggestions. Any additional info would be helpful with this one.
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Thanks, ShaunJ. That may be a lead. I'll look into that a bit more. The dates and location are certainly suggestive. :)
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Received from Bridewell, Westminster Gaol 13.3.1843.
'Bridewell Westminster' is another name for the Tothill Fields prison, mentioned in my reply #4 above.
The prison calendars for Tothill Fields are held at LMA, separately from the court records discussed above, and if anyone is going they could be inspected on the same visit. Again, they're not going to provide 'family background' as such, but they may include something that offers a lead.
This information leaflet refers (see halfway down p. 15) ...
https://www.cityoflondon.gov.uk/things-to-do/london-metropolitan-archives/visitor-information/Documents/59-prison-records.pdf
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Thanks for clarifying the Bridewell-Tothill Fields link, Bookbox. I didn't realise.
I will get all my requests in relation to Thomas Carr via the LMA organised and then post on the lookups board as you suggested.
OJ
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Hello OJ,
Would you happen to have a photograph of Thomas CARR by any chance ??? ???
BAC3
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Hi
I've spent the last few years researching the Thomas Arbuthnot exiles. I know a bit about Thomas Carr.
I don't think Thomas Carr the exile is the same as your Thomas Carr, to be honest. I think he's been mixed up a few times.
Thomas Carr left the Thomas Arbuthnot with work as a groom for Major Newman in Geelong. From there he seems to have headed up to Ballarat, probably looking for gold.
Thomas Carr the exile was convicted of robbery in 1858 in Victoria. At the time, he was in Ballarat and gave the name "William Jones". His prison record shows he was born in Lancashire, which may or may not be true. He said at the time that he had no relatives in the Colony. He wasn't released until 1864.
That doesn't seem to fit with your Thomas Carr.
Thomas Carr the exile seems to have suffered from a fairly severe mental illness later in life, claiming to be a wizard at times. He was sometimes referred to as "the Wizard of the South". He lived around Wangaratta in the 1860s.
As far as I can work out, he died at the Alfred Hospital in Prahran in 1884.
Kind regards
Jill Brewer