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General => The Common Room => The Lighter Side => Topic started by: LizzieW on Friday 23 December 16 10:34 GMT (UK)
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No comments on this programme yet ::)
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I watched it. I thought Ricky Tomlinson got a bit individual about everything, as though it was only his family that came from that background, being carters and poor, industrial schools and everything. Wasn't impressed with the few seconds of weeping about someone's plight 150 years ago.
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I agree. I don't like the man and the programme only confirmed my thoughts about him. His wife seemed so nice, I wonder why she doesn't get him to cut his hair ::)
I didn't like the way he and the young researcher in the library jumped to the conclusion that his 2 x g.grandmother (I think it was her) just dumped her 2 young children in the Industrial School because she'd got a new fellow who'd got her pregnant, but who wouldn't marry her until all the children were old enough to work - and he got called a rude name by Ricky Tomlinson just on one wrong assumption. Also because she was on the census with her new man and 3 children that her original family had broken up. It was only when they looked at the marriage cert of one of her children and saw that one of the witnesses was a half brother that they came round to the fact that probably all her family were still together.
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I enjoyed it, despite the usual frustrations of the routes not followed. On the marriage certificate of his ancestor (GGF?) who grew up in dire poverty, it clearly showed him as a widower - this wasn't even mentioned, despite his young age.
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I enjoyed this programme, but then I rather like Ricky Tomlinson anyway, being a Lancastrian, though not a Skouser myself.
It was interesting to see the name Richard passed down over the generations of this family, as was the occupation of carter. How sad that men in 2 generations died as a result of horse and cart accidents.
Some of my ancestors sailed from Liverpool to the USA when they emigrated in the 19th century and it was a good piece of social history to see how the city boomed as an important port and business hub. Also of interest was the effect of the Irish potato famine on the population and the resulting Protestant/Roman Catholic divide of the city - Ricky noted that he has a "mixed marriage", as he is a Protestant and his wife is a Catholic.
There were lots of helpful archivists and historians who popped up with useful certificates, though it was disappointing to see them give up trying to trace the family before 1837 records began. As always, assumptions were made and Ricky was sure he had inherited his union activities from his ancestors. No expensive trips across the world for Ricky, who stayed in his beloved Liverpool as he visited the various archives. A low key episode, perhaps, but none the worse for that.
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On the marriage certificate of his ancestor (GGF?) who grew up in dire poverty, it clearly showed him as a widower - this wasn't even mentioned, despite his young age.
Yes I noticed that, perhaps it didn't fit into their agenda.
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I imagine that Ricky's personality mightn't be everyone's cup of tea but he is what he is and wears his emotions on his sleeve and although I would probably end up getting into an argument with him if we had to share the same space for any length of time, I liked him as a person and he showed a lot of interest and passion in the story being told.
However, the problem for me was that the story of inner city poverty and life and death was one I've visited before and one that many might recognise in their own family history, so whilst tragic, it didn't grip me in the same way that something novel would. The foray into contemporary religious divisions in Liverpool was interesting though.
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I thought his concern for the injustices and the deprivations suffered by the working people of Liverpool was completely genuine and in character. I didn't get the impression that he was only thinking about his own family. I also thought the emphasis on the Irish immigration, and the Protestant/Catholic troubles was really interesting and well handled.
I agree though that he and the researcher were far too judgemental about Mary's second husband - nobody really knows what happened in that family from the few records that they found.
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Another interesting but straight forward episode. Ricky can be a bit dramatic and it can be awkward watching him at times. Some of my ancestors were dockers and carters in Liverpool so it was interesting to me. Some historical information was a bit simplistic due to the limitations of time.
Irish migration to Liverpool was very high before the Famine and the Irish did not only settle in the north docks area. They were everywhere. That area had the most Irish but so called Protestant areas such as Everton had a lot of people of Irish descent living there.
I would have liked the programme to go further back to see whether the Tomlinson line was in Liverpool in the 18th century and if they could identify another place of origin, in Lancashire or elsewhere.
Blue
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My husband's 3 x g.grandfather who was a Catholic lived in Liverpool in 1841 (so possibly even before then). He didn't live near the docks although he did work as a Porter in 1841 so possibly worked on the docks, his eldest son was an apprentice cabinet maker. By 1851 he had moved even further away from the docks, so I guess you could be a Catholic in Liverpool and not be living in poverty.
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Can't comment on the programme as I stopped watching after a couple of minutes. I have never taken to R-T as I can't take his chip-on-shoulder attitude. I always feel he didn't have to act too hard in his famous role in the Royle Family.
My maternal ancestry has strong Liverpool connections, and one or two in the tree had menial jobs in the docks or round about. Others were more middle-class - maybe I take after them ??? But having lived within 15 miles of there for nearly 50 years, I remember the 70s and 80s when the place was not often out of the news for some reason or other. Colleagues of mine used to comment that high unemployment in Liverpool was no surprise - many were unemployable. Things have improved a lot, but R-T still won't bury the hatchet.
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Yes I cannot find his personality engaging and did not enjoy so much. I do like the way the program makers fill in social context though
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I hope Ricky's dramatic mannerisms haven't caused people to neglect the injustices of the past. We need to learn from history. The poverty and cruelty of Victorian times must never be allowed to creep back.
Blue
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On the marriage certificate of his ancestor (GGF?) who grew up in dire poverty, it clearly showed him as a widower - this wasn't even mentioned, despite his young age.
Yes I noticed that, perhaps it didn't fit into their agenda.
All of the episodes follow a narrative, and a segue into the life of his great-grandfather's first wife would have distracted from it.
Non-genealogists are the main audience for this programme and they aren't as good at keeping track of names and relationships as we are. So you really need to keep things brief and streamlined as possible in order to keep things clear.
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But having lived within 15 miles of there for nearly 50 years, I remember the 70s and 80s when the place was not often out of the news for some reason or other. Colleagues of mine used to comment that high unemployment in Liverpool was no surprise - many were unemployable. Things have improved a lot, but R-T still won't bury the hatchet.
::)
Blue
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All of the episodes follow a narrative, and a segue into the life of his great-grandfather's first wife would have distracted from it.
I guess they wanted to show his 2nd marriage to point out that one of the witnesses was a half brother and so the family hadn't split up as they'd previously decided.
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Enjoyed this programme, you have to remember that Ricky is an actor! Life in the Liverpool slums must have been a greater shock to the rural Irish than the natives who were accustomed to it. The world was ill-divided right enough!
Skoosh.
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Sad to say but the Irish were better off in the courts and cellars of Liverpool than in Ireland such was the poverty and conditions in Ireland throughout the 19th century.
Blue
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I'm not familiar with the actor Ricky Tomlinson but I thought he had a chip on his shoulder for some reason. I would have loved to have pointed out to him that his ancestors were fortunate to have had a trade, as many had none and lived a precarious life as a jobbing day labourer.
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Dockers had it worse than carters. Ricky's ancestors were better off working class.
Blue
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I think Ricky's point was that Liverpool was a booming town of commerce and none of that wealth actually reached the workers who toiled day in and day out. I never got the impression that Ricky only had carters in mind when he made that point. It's just that was the focus of the programme because all his ancestors were carters.
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This seemed to be a programme particularly driven by the values/personality of the subject. Ricky Tomlinson is passionate about poverty, unionism and social class, so the research focussed on these - giving him the opportunity to reinforce his opinions.
I completely agree with the comments below that there were some unproved assumptions which devalued the programme.
On a flippant note - I wonder how RT would have reacted if the research had turned up a wicked industrialist or slum landlord!
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I think Ricky's point was that Liverpool was a booming town of commerce and none of that wealth actually reached the workers who toiled day in and day out. I never got the impression that Ricky only had carters in mind when he made that point. It's just that was the focus of the programme because all his ancestors were carters.
Agreed. The money put into the mansions of the rich merchants was folly in a lot of cases as they often moved away due to the expanse of towns and cities. Many were not sustainable in the long run and ended up as ruins or converted for other uses. The grounds often becoming public parks as a sort of thank you to the workers who helped to pay for them.
Blue
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Blue, the Irish population boomed in the 19th century until the great famine of the 1840's when it crashed & folk starved while the landowners continued to export grain & livestock. The same famine hit the Highlands & Islands & folk who were used to a life of self-sufficiency on a croft, (however poor!) moving to a Glasgow slum was no different from those in Liverpool. Their new diet was insufficient to maintain their famed stature, & like Donegal, the tallest people in Britain, their descendants literally shrank.
Skoosh.
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Blue, the Irish population boomed in the 19th century until the great famine of the 1840's when it crashed & folk starved while the landowners continued to export grain & livestock. The same famine hit the Highlands & Islands & folk who were used to a life of self-sufficiency on a croft, (however poor!) moving to a Glasgow slum was no different from those in Liverpool. Their new diet was insufficient to maintain their famed stature, & like Donegal, the tallest people in Britain, their descendants literally shrank.
Skoosh.
The Irish people who came to Liverpool in the 19th century were mostly from the labouring class who were starving on the land, before and after the Famine. There was work available for them in Liverpool and the support of neighbours and a network of RC churches. They were better off in Liverpool that's why so many settled. It was easy for them to return to Ireland if they wanted to go back.
Blue
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The Irish people who came to Liverpool in the 19th century were mostly from the labouring class who were starving on the land, before and after the Famine. There was work available for them in Liverpool and the support of neighbours and a network of RC churches. They were better off in Liverpool that's why so many settled. It was easy for them to return to Ireland if they wanted to go back.
I always understood that many of the Irish who settled in Liverpool had gone there as the first stage in emigrating to America, as that was where most emigrant ships sailed from. Some got no further, either because they 'liked' it, or they didn't want to pay the fare.
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For most of the people there was no going back, the landowners had got them off the land & wouldn't have them back. There was no security of tenure in Scotland until the Crofting Acts of the 1880's, Ireland would just pre-date this & once a generation had grown up in the city, life in the country was alien to them. The hardship & inhumanity suffered at that time sowed the seeds of the rebellion, civil war. partition & the troubles which have continued to this day.
Skoosh.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Famine_%28Ireland%29
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The Irish people who came to Liverpool in the 19th century were mostly from the labouring class who were starving on the land, before and after the Famine. There was work available for them in Liverpool and the support of neighbours and a network of RC churches. They were better off in Liverpool that's why so many settled. It was easy for them to return to Ireland if they wanted to go back.
I always understood that many of the Irish who settled in Liverpool had gone there as the first stage in emigrating to America, as that was where most emigrant ships sailed from. Some got no further, either because they 'liked' it, or they didn't want to pay the fare.
That's a bit of a myth. Liverpool was both a stepping stone and a final destination. Part of the anti-Irish prejudice was the belief that the Liverpool Irish were the failures (Head Police Constable William Nott-Bower said that in his autobiography published in 1926) of the waves of emigration. There was a contradictory attitude to the Irish. Their labour was usually welcomed but their presence was often unwanted.
Blue
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For most of the people there was no going back, the landowners had got them off the land & wouldn't have them back. There was no security of tenure in Scotland until the Crofting Acts of the 1880's, Ireland would just pre-date this & once a generation had grown up in the city, life in the country was alien to them. The hardship & inhumanity suffered at that time sowed the seeds of the rebellion, civil war. partition & the troubles which have continued to this day.
Skoosh.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Famine_%28Ireland%29
I think most people would agree that Ireland was a badly governed country in the 19th century and the lack of prospects caused a mass movement of people out of Ireland that continued well into the 20th century.
Blue
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I felt closer to this episode as my ancestor who emigrated from Durham to the USA in 1886 to join an emigrant daughter out there sailed from Liverpool, and he returned to England a few years later then returned to America, this time for good, in April 1892 and sailed from Liverpool.
Also I have an ancestor sibling was a railwayman from Oxfordshire who moved to Liverpool. He married there, so his father's (my ancestor) name and rank is given in a Liverpool church. I quite liked Brookside and The Royle Family but yes, Ricky did act like he was the only one whose ancestors lived in slums.
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I avoided any spoilers for this episode. I thought there might have been something surprising such as an ancestor who was a slave trader or a Tory. I was hoping for an Irish Catholic ancestor to show how contrary to the supposed differences of the past, people married who they wanted to marry. My own family tree has a number of mixed marriages.
Blue
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I liked this one! To me, it was 'proper' genealogy - not all this 'related to royalty' rubbish.
It was about ordinary working class people and Ricky was right to say what he did - politics, or no! I thought the comment about him cutting his hair made by a previous poster was right out of the ark. If someone had commented on the amount of make up Cheryl or Amanda was wearing there would have (rightly) been an outcry.
As someone said, the man isn't instantly likeable and I will admit to not being a great fan of his, but I respect what he had to say and, as the saying goes, would defend his right to say it.
Long may this series continue in following through a few generations and not concentrating on one ancestor as in previous series.
I understand its Father Christmas next week!!! :D
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I enjoyed this episode. I liked the social history side of it and I liked the way it followed the generations back. These programmes are made for general viewing and I think they try to make sure it's not too complicated to understand. My relatives were Carter's in the North East so it was interesting to see just how many Carter's there were around moving goods to and from the docks
Chris
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An interesting episode and different to the other 4 so far. I don't think it was the best of the series and was probably more nearer the bottom.
I like the fact that he wanted to know more especially about the illegal postmortem and that he did some research himself. However, like many others, on here, I found him very individualist about his ancestors. The jumping to conclusions was also another down point to this episode. Also, the fact that near the beginning the lady he was with said that they couldn't get back further because "civil registration began in 1837" - yes they did but surely there would be parish and other records to get back further. Perhaps the next generation up weren't carters... :-\ In my opinion, he should have gone back a generation at a time and finished with the last carter and found out that his father did something else but never mind. Looking forward to the next one! :)
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... I thought Ricky Tomlinson got a bit individual about everything, as though it was only his family that came from that background, being carters and poor, industrial schools and everything. Wasn't impressed with the few seconds of weeping about someone's plight 150 years ago.
It is difficult to put ourselves in the shoes of the subjects of WDYTYA because we have been doing genealogy for some time, we have been through the slow process of learning about certificates, censuses, newspaper reports and so on, and on the way, we have become aware of the scale of sufferings and early deaths in the 19th and early 20th century. I imagine it would be quite a shock to be presented with certificates naming your ancestors (especially when they share your name), then be told "Oh, he died young" "He died in an industrial accident" "She had 9 children but only two made it to adulthood" etc etc. Ricky and some other subjects clearly don't seem to have had very advanced educations and have obviously not considered what life may have been like for most before antibiotics and the modern health and social services came along.
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I was surprised that RT didn't seem to already know that most people, across England, would have been working class, with many living in crowded slum conditions due to industrialisation. As another poster said, it wasn't exceptional to his family.
Also thought the descriptions of Liverpool's religions was too simplistic. There would already have been many English Catholics in Lancashire, as well as the dominant Church of England. Methodism was popular in the north too and also "Chapel" from the many Welsh Immigrants into Liverpool. There are also all the religiously mixed families, which contradicts the exaggerated "sectarian" narrative of the programme
I was confused as to why they insisted on using the word "Protestant", incessantly, to describe a family who were Church of England? I wouldn't describe the CoE as a strictly "Protestant" church, not in the same way as Scottish Calvinist is for example. The CoE still retains many Catholic features.
As with the Liz Bonnin episode, I thought there was too much political agenda and supposition going on
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I didn't like the assumption that RT's ancestors were likely bigoted because of where they lived. I don't like folk narratives where some people try to attach a believed view of history to real people's lives. Too simplistic.
Blue
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Also, the fact that near the beginning the lady he was with said that they couldn't get back further because "civil registration began in 1837" - yes they did but surely there would be parish and other records to get back further.
I found myself yelling ' What about Parish records ' at the TV at that point !! lol Interesting episode , as my maternal grandfathers side came from Ireland to Liverpool , and eventually settled in Coventry,
Like RT I have 2 ancestors ( father and son ) who died due to accidents, rail though not horse/ carts , one was a driver of a train that crashed , though he was the only fatality, ( and after a lengthy inquest was found to have been at fault for the accident, his son died 35 years later in a goods yard accident
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The programme pretended that sectarianism in Liverpool had all faded away by the start of the Great War.
Not many years ago I worked with a chap from Liverpool who supported Liverpool FC. His father refused to speak to him, because Liverpool are the "Catholic" club, while Everton are the "Protestants". My workmate explained "He's in the Orange Lodge and everything".
Maybe it was not obvious to RT or those making the programme, but there are still those in Liverpool who will treat him as a traitor for marrying who he did.
As for the "class struggle" in Liverpool, there are those who have still not forgiven the dockers there for going on strike in 1943.
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I expect the interviews with the 'experts' went on for much longer then the few minutes of each that were shown and a lot of information we didn't see but RT might have, hit the editing room floor.
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I found myself yelling ' What about Parish records ' at the TV at that point !!
But when William was baptised in 1816, his father Richard was described as a Labourer and not a Carter, so that would have spoiled the narrative.
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Not many years ago I worked with a chap from Liverpool who supported Liverpool FC. His father refused to speak to him, because Liverpool are the "Catholic" club, while Everton are the "Protestants"
It used to be like that in Manchester, United was considered a "Catholic" club probably because many of its players were Irish and City was the "Protestant" club. That seems to have been forgotten now by most people probably because the two religions were not "at war" with each other in the Manchester area. Isn't Glasgow the same with Celtic and Rangers. It's all a bit daft if you ask me - although no-one is.
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Perhaps yet another thread for the Moderators to "kill" :-[ :-[
I thought it was supposed to be the season of goodwill? ::)
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As for the "class struggle" in Liverpool, there are those who have still not forgiven the dockers there for going on strike in 1943.
Without wishing to go off topic, I would suggest that one Liverpool characteristic is a terrier-like ability to keep grudges going. I suspect it may have Irish origins. And as well as my Liverpool roots, I also have Irish connections .... >:(
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BumbleB - I was just posting that as I started the thread and it has got out of hand I was going to ask a moderator to lock it - which I've now done.
Lizzie
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There is a comment on Ancestry's Facebook page regarding the issue of not being able to go back prior to the start of registration in 1837. Someone asked the professional genealogist via twitter why that was said. Apparently that wasn't what she meant but that is how it came across after the programme editing. ::)
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BumbleB - I was just posting that as I started the thread and it has got out of hand I was going to ask a moderator to lock it - which I've now done.
Lizzie
Rather than lock the thread which is a shame for just one small section, perhaps the Mods could intervene to conclude the dispute.
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BumbleB - I was just posting that as I started the thread and it has got out of hand I was going to ask a moderator to lock it - which I've now done.
Lizzie
LOL, you take a 'high & mighty' attitude to me commenting on your intolerant attitude - oh the Irony !
Goodbye please ....
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Also, the fact that near the beginning the lady he was with said that they couldn't get back further because "civil registration began in 1837" - yes they did but surely there would be parish and other records to get back further.
Yes ! as you and others have pointed out.
I was completely baffled by that statement too. I believe what was said was something like
"...1837 when records for working class people began"
A bizarre thing to say. I didn't think the research or history in this episode was very good at all
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The programme pretended that sectarianism in Liverpool had all faded away by the start of the Great War.
Not many years ago I worked with a chap from Liverpool who supported Liverpool FC. His father refused to speak to him, because Liverpool are the "Catholic" club, while Everton are the "Protestants". My workmate explained "He's in the Orange Lodge and everything".
Maybe it was not obvious to RT or those making the programme, but there are still those in Liverpool who will treat him as a traitor for marrying who he did.
But isn't this kind of sectarianism related to imported divisions?, brought in by Irish Catholics and Irish Protestants and even then I think that too might be being exaggerated now
England had so many denominations, and Lancashire so many English Catholics anyway, that this sectarianism was an outside influence coming in with migration
As I posted earlier , I am not sure that many Church of England people (RT's family?) saw themselves as "Protestant" anyway
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Well, I'd like to wish everyone the compliments of the season. It is the season of goodwill, after all, not the one for declaring "Bah Humbug" :)
So on this occasion, I will not lock the thread, but instead ask everyone to stick to the topic (see the title of the thread ;) )
I will also give you the opportunity to modify any comments which are outside the spirit of RootsChat or seasonal goodwill, or I'll have to call Scrooge to do it for you. I don't want to ask him to get out of his box, but sometimes there seems to be no choice.
I am now going to carry on with my Christmas preparations, but I will be back. Don't tempt me to return in full Arnie fashion! ;D :D
Nell
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.. but I will be back. Don't tempt me to return in full Arnie fashion! ;D :D
Nell
The Global Terminator!!
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As I posted earlier , I am not sure that many Church of England people saw themselves as "Protestant" anyway
I think "Protestant" in the context of the program was used in the sense that that was the word used by Catholics to describe non-Catholics ie all other Christians....not that I'm arguing this was the correct word to use, but that was how it was.
In the late 1950s in Manchester, I remember a little girl aged about 6 telling me she hated me (also aged about 6) because she was a Proddy-dog and I was a Catty-cat, so "Protestant" was clearly a word used by the whole community at that time.
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Regarding the genealogists comment on the programme about not being able to go back prior to 1837, as per my previous post, someone asked her about this on twitter - http://www.rootschat.com/links/01j4r/. You don't need a twitter account to read the replies, just click on the twitter post and you can see the genealogist's response if it doesn't appear.
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I do wish some Rootschatters would stop being quite so precious and anxious to kill any debate that doesn't fit their personal model. >:(
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I think "Protestant" in the context of the program was used in the sense that that was the word used by Catholics to describe non-Catholics ie all other Christians....not that I'm arguing this was the correct word to use, but that was how it was.
But the programme was about a Church of England family. This is why I couldn't understand all the references to Protestants and Catholics. I couldn't understand what relevance it had to the story
In the late 1950s in Manchester, I remember a little girl aged about 6 telling me she hated me (also aged about 6) because she was a Proddy-dog and I was a Catty-cat, so "Protestant" was clearly a word used by the whole community at that time.
This might have been more an imported bigotry though?, and nothing to do with religion in England, which was religiously varied before the immigration anyway. If you had a school or area with a high proportion of Irish or Scottish "proddys" and "catts", then this is their experience of each other before migrating into England. It just carried on between them after they arrived
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The programme pretended that sectarianism in Liverpool had all faded away by the start of the Great War.
Not many years ago I worked with a chap from Liverpool who supported Liverpool FC. His father refused to speak to him, because Liverpool are the "Catholic" club, while Everton are the "Protestants". My workmate explained "He's in the Orange Lodge and everything".
Maybe it was not obvious to RT or those making the programme, but there are still those in Liverpool who will treat him as a traitor for marrying who he did.
As for the "class struggle" in Liverpool, there are those who have still not forgiven the dockers there for going on strike in 1943.
Traditionally Everton FC had more supporters from an Irish RC background.
Blue
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Regarding the genealogists comment on the programme about not being able to go back prior to 1837, as per my previous post, someone asked her about this on twitter - http://www.rootschat.com/links/01j4r/. You don't need a twitter account to read the replies, just click on the twitter post and you can see the genealogist's response if it doesn't appear.
:o
"microfilm loading"
Hasn't she heard of the wonderful, comprehensive and free resource known as Lancashire OPC !
http://www.lan-opc.org.uk/
(contains a total of 8930815 records from 8429 Registers)
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edit deleted
double post
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:o
"microfilm loading"
Hasn't she heard of the wonderful, comprehensive and free resource known as Lancashire OPC !
http://www.lan-opc.org.uk/
(contains a total of 8930815 records from 8429 Registers)
I think the microfilm loading may have been a bit tongue in cheek so to speak.
Yes the OPC sites are a good finding aid, but they are of course transcriptions that need to be checked against the originals, as with all secondary source material. ;)
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It was great to see a "commoner" history investigated - especially when it involved the area and the occupation of my own ancestors too !
I have CofE carters in my tree who didn't live up in Everton and where closer to the docks - they came from County Durham and not Ireland
I also have Scottish shipwrights who also lived down by the docks who baptised children as Catholics and CofE also
It seems in my own research there was more mingling of faiths and people from a wider community than just an Irish one which wasn't portrayed in the programme!
It was sad not to find out if the Tomlinsons were also immigrants to the area before registration - as I also had a Manchester link who moved to Liverpool whose mother was a Tomlinson!
Ruby stole the show! ;D
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There wasn't really cause for the programme to cover sectarianism. No religious issue as far as we know with RT's family. I think they slotted that in to add some history. I do find it interesting but it's not easy to cover in this format. There was sectarianism in Liverpool with children raised in different schools and told not to marry out with often the threat of being disowned. It survived into the modern era probably fading out in the 1970s after the housing clearances.
My Nan was raised in Everton and was brainwashed with lots of anti-Catholic dogma. My Grandad was a Catholic from the North Docks area. We never knew he was an RC she kept it quiet it was never discussed. People could be very contradictory. I suppose if you were forced out of your house or abused by the other side you would be bitter. The 1909 Riots may have left some with bitter memories:-
http://news.bbc.co.uk/local/liverpool/hi/people_and_places/religion_and_ethics/newsid_8241000/8241927.stm
Blue
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Regarding the genealogists comment on the programme about not being able to go back prior to 1837, as per my previous post, someone asked her about this on twitter - http://www.rootschat.com/links/01j4r/. You don't need a twitter account to read the replies, just click on the twitter post and you can see the genealogist's response if it doesn't appear.
I suspected this was the case, as someone said, non-genealogists are the main audience and I don't think the programme was intended to be pored over forensically by genealoginerds like me who have the benefit of hindsight not available at the time of shooting. For a programme with a finite time constraint I imagine that a certain amount of licence is permitted to make the story flow. With a high dependency throughout on obtaining a natural, spontaneous reaction from the celebrity and effective interactions with the experts, I imagine that frequent retakes are not desireable and that clever editing won't address every bit of loose or shorthand language used.
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:o
"microfilm loading"
Hasn't she heard of the wonderful, comprehensive and free resource known as Lancashire OPC !
http://www.lan-opc.org.uk/
(contains a total of 8930815 records from 8429 Registers)
I think the microfilm loading may have been a bit tongue in cheek so to speak.
Yes the OPC sites are a good finding aid, but they are of course transcriptions that need to be checked against the originals, as with all secondary source material. ;)
LanOPC is the best ;) It has such a good reputation, is very thorough and very well transcribed.
Here is William?
William Tomlinson bapt 8 Sep 1816 St Nicholas, Liverpool, Son of Richard Tomlinson (labourer of Lancelott Hey) & Cathn.
http://www.lan-opc.org.uk/
Couldn't find a Richard = Catherine marriage
It is a local name but maybe RT's Tomlinsons didn't come from Lancashire originally after all :'( ?
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The programme pretended that sectarianism in Liverpool had all faded away by the start of the Great War.
Not many years ago I worked with a chap from Liverpool who supported Liverpool FC. His father refused to speak to him, because Liverpool are the "Catholic" club, while Everton are the "Protestants". My workmate explained "He's in the Orange Lodge and everything".
Maybe it was not obvious to RT or those making the programme, but there are still those in Liverpool who will treat him as a traitor for marrying who he did.
As for the "class struggle" in Liverpool, there are those who have still not forgiven the dockers there for going on strike in 1943.
Traditionally Everton FC had more supporters from an Irish RC background.
Blue
I'm sure Blue is right - it's what I've always been led to believe, but more a historical issue, nothing like the Celtic-Rangers sectarian animosity which continues to this day.
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Possible marriage for William's parents:-
11 Oct 1801
St Peter CE Liverpool
Richard Tomlinson, Liverpool, Labourer
Catharine Roberts, Liverpool, Spinster
Witness 1: Wm Morgan
Witness 2: Abram Critchlow
Blue
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Possible marriage for Richard's parents:-
11 Oct 1801
St Peter CE Liverpool
Richard Tomlinson, Liverpool, Labourer
Catharine Roberts, Liverpool, Spinster
Witness 1: Wm Morgan
Witness 2: Abram Critchlow
Blue
Looks good Blue
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Possible baptisms (son of Liverpool merchant John Tomlinson candidate died in 1819)
Baptism: 14 Mar 1779 St Bartholomew, Chipping, Lancs.
Richard Tomlinson - Son of Richard Tomlinson
Abode: Chipping
Register: Baptisms 1771 - 1791 from the Bishop's Transcripts, Page 9, Entry 25
Source: LDS Film 1656769
Baptism: 14 Nov 1779 Collegiate, Manchester, Lancashire, England
Richard Tomlinson - son of Robert Tomlinson & Mary
Register: Baptisms 1778 - 1789, Page 34, Entry 1628
Source: LDS Film 2357002
Blue
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Possible baptisms (son of Liverpool merchant John Tomlinson candidate died in 1819)
Baptism: 14 Mar 1779 St Bartholomew, Chipping, Lancs.
Richard Tomlinson - Son of Richard Tomlinson
Abode: Chipping
Register: Baptisms 1771 - 1791 from the Bishop's Transcripts, Page 9, Entry 25
Source: LDS Film 1656769
Baptism: 14 Nov 1779 Collegiate, Manchester, Lancashire, England
Richard Tomlinson - son of Robert Tomlinson & Mary
Register: Baptisms 1778 - 1789, Page 34, Entry 1628
Source: LDS Film 2357002
Blue
Richard Tomlinson bapt 22 Aug 1784 St Nicholas, Liverpool, son of Richard Tomlinson (labourer) & Elizabeth, of Trueman St.
Possible but this would make him 17 at his marriage to Catherine
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Another possible:-
Name: Richard Tomlinson
Baptism Date: 20 Sep 1778
Baptism Place: Lapley, Staffordshire, England
Father: Richard Tomlinson
Mother: Mary
Blue
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You Tube (only about 50 mins long though should be about 58 mins long):-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3MxFuEZa-u8&feature=youtu.be
Blue
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In my opinion, he should have gone back a generation at a time and finished with the last carter and found out that his father did something else but never mind. Looking forward to the next one! :)
Yes, I thought so too as somebody must have bought the first horse and cart to pass down to the next generation.
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Well I for one enjoyed this programme. No slur meant, but for once it was about an 'ordinary working class family'. Just like my paternal family history. Mine was an Irish family arriving in Liverpool avoiding the famine, living in the Court Housing and eventually moving up the hill away from the docks. I have photographs of the Court Housing, but had not seen the last remains of these 'slums', as shown on the programme. The photographs of the docks were fascinating, just where my ancestors worked.
I was not surprised that Ricky expressed his socialist beliefs, I didn't think he would have been any different.
Now on the other side of the Mersey my maternal family ancestors were enjoying the fruits of working for one of the shipbuilders. Good housing, food and education for their children. A world apart, not just the River Mersey as a divide!!!!!
Regards
Kathb
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Who remembers the TV series Bread, all about a Scouse family trying to make good by whatever means? A rather similar storyline - 'keep it in the famileee' ...
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Yes, Lancashire OPC is a good site. I have used it a lot and discovered some very interesting things in my family.
Unfortunately, my G G Grandfather claims to have come from Liverpool - on the census and his marriage cert, and there is no trace of him there. Does make us wonder if his family really originated from Ireland.
I found the programme interesting, but am not a fan of Ricky Tomlinson. I started watching a repeat of the Royale family on tv the other night - gave up after 5 minutes !
FS
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A Carter = a labourer with a horse!
Skoosh.
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A Carter = a labourer with a horse!
That's what I thought. I'm not sure how they made the leap to "skilled". There were plenty of ag. labs. who were "skilled" with horses but were never regarded as anything other than labourers.
I think if there was any problem with this episode it was the attempt to flesh it out for an hour.
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I did a bit more digging and Ricky may have some Scottish and Irish ancestors. I think his dads maternal gran was a Collier and her mum was Mary Christie, father Robert, who could be the Scottish Robert Christie in Liverpool in 1851. His maternal grandad was William Wilson and I think his mum was Maria Casell whose parents were Irish.
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A Carter = a labourer with a horse!
Skoosh.
One of my ancestors was a Miller by trade but seems to have mainly worked as a Carman in the East End of London. He's also often referred to in a number of documents as a Horse Keeper. In fact that's what's on his death certificate and one of his son's was the informant.
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Smud, my own ancestors were Scottish country millers one of whom appears in the Horse Tax Records as a miller had to have transport to take his meal to market.
Skoosh.
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True Skoosh, but I still find it surprising there were that many Mills in the Mile End/Ratcliffe area in the 1870s and 1880s as it was I think even then quite urbanised. I suppose the grain was brought in to London and milled there.
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A Carter = a labourer with a horse!
Skoosh.
. and cart :) an old fashioned "white van man" :) the first one to buy the horse and cart probably had the gift of the gab to have won orders against such fierce competition.
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Was just going to say the same, Rena, about a carter being a 'white van man' or man with van. I have a carter in the tree and poor families all over, together with industrial schools. I got a bit annoyed with Ricky Tomlinson. You would have thought his family was particularly picked out for a duff hand in life.
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You would have thought his family was particularly picked out for a duff hand in life.
Some people must have watched a different programme from me. Ricky Tomlinson was using the individuals in his own family to illustrate a much wider point about inequality and unfairness.
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Is there any difference between a carter and a rullyman? A couple of my ancestors in East and West Yorkshire were rullymen in both 18th and 19th centuries. I've always assumed this was a driver of a horse drawn cart.
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Is there any difference between a carter and a rullyman? A couple of my ancestors in East and West Yorkshire were rullymen in both 18th and 19th centuries. I've always assumed this was a driver of a horse drawn cart.
Do you mean a lurryman ? (i.e.lorry) That name crops up occasionally.
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Sorry - yes I did mean lurryman. And rullyman. Just checked my records and the West Yorks ancestor was a lurryman, whilst the East Yorks one was a rullyman but, as far as I know, both drove horse drawn carts! Must just be the local vernacular.
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I have Rullymen too and I'm from East Yorkshire :D
Carol
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Is there any difference between a carter and a rullyman? A couple of my ancestors in East and West Yorkshire were rullymen in both 18th and 19th centuries. I've always assumed this was a driver of a horse drawn cart.
In today's terms a carter would be anything from driving a van to a rigid large goods vehicle and the lurryman the artic drivers (i.e. the heavy carts).
This however is not cast in stone and depending on who used the term both could mean the driver of any size of horse drawn cart.
Cheers
Guy
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I enjoyed this one. In fact the series on the whole so far has been quite interesting. Mind you, I was a bit disappointed with Cheryl's one last week - she seemed disinterested at times but like Ricky's this week - you did get a sense of her pride in where she came from. I'd have liked her episode to go back a few more generations on the Laing line but that's purely because I wanted to see if I was right with thinking that her Laings came initially from Scotland :D
Kay
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@ Smud, by the 1860's large steam-powered mills were operating in the towns & with the growing railway network, the great days of the country miller were ending.
Skoosh,
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In my opinion, he should have gone back a generation at a time and finished with the last carter and found out that his father did something else but never mind. Looking forward to the next one! :)
Yes, I thought so too as somebody must have bought the first horse and cart to pass down to the next generation.
I may be mistaken of course, I often am :D But I think I saw the newspaper item on the death of one of the carters and it said he was employed by someone to drive the cart.
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Most carters worked for haulage companies, the railway companies alone owned thousands of horses.
Scotland's largest haulier William Wordie & Co of Glasgow started off as a carter in Stirling & from such humble beginnings grew big enough to take over railway company contracts. A great benefactor he financed polar expeditions. I had a great uncle who worked for Wordie's.
Skoosh.
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Also, the fact that near the beginning the lady he was with said that they couldn't get back further because "civil registration began in 1837" - yes they did but surely there would be parish and other records to get back further.
I knew I wouldn't be the only one yelling "WHAT???!" at the TV at this point!
It frustrates me a little that the research aspect is simplified so much ("let's type his name into this unnamed genealogy website - oh look, this must be him in the 1861 census")... but I realise that this programme is aimed at genealogists and non-genealogists alike, and they only have an hour-long programme in which they want to show the most entertaining parts. Cross-referencing every bit of information would make for a very tedious programme.
Perhaps a "WDYTYA extra" on the red button with some more in-depth information?
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Today I have started a thread on the Lancashire section, specifically about Liverpool carters and their horses because I am interested in the meat of this subject and not in many of the slightly off-topic posts here. So if anyone can help me with my queries about the carters and their horses please see my other post.
Thank you.
Happy 2nd Day of Christmas to All,
Melbell
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@ Smud, by the 1860's large steam-powered mills were operating in the towns & with the growing railway network, the great days of the country miller were ending.
Skoosh,
We had steam powered mills in my home town. They'd originally been countryside windmills (with the sails removed) but when the population exploded, due to the arrival of the railway and other industries, they were more or less in what I knew as the "old town".
I've just done a Google map walk to illustrate one I used to cycle passed in the 1960s - but it's gone - and so have the multitude of old factories and terraced houses that lined the route.
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Most carters worked for haulage companies, the railway companies alone owned thousands of horses.
My Turton parish shows a good number of 'carters' after the railway arrived there about 1848. Being a large rural parish I guess there were distances to be covered to reach the upland farms.
My tree also has a William Williams who migrated from deepest Shropshire/Welsh border to become a carter in Liverpool in the mid 1860s.
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There would be small contractors like Steptoe & Sons ;D but even rag & bone men hired a horse & cart for the day, in my time. The cost of a heavy horse & cart plus feeding & stabling would have been way beyond the means of folk who could barely feed themselves.
Skoosh.
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There would be small contractors like Steptoe & Sons ;D but even rag & bone men hired a horse & cart for the day, in my time. The cost of a heavy horse & cart plus feeding & stabling would have been way beyond the means of folk who could barely feed themselves.
Skoosh.
Stabling, many city carter horses would simply be hobbled in a yard or or courtyard, feed could be aquired on the job from others by various means if it could not be afforded.
Cheers
Guy
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These horses were doing hard graft they needed hard feeding, somebody who skimped on feed or left a horse exposed all Winter wouldn't have a horse for very long.
Skoosh.
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Is it feasbile that horses were stabled at the docks? If you had a horse and cart and lived in a two up two down or in a court, what would be the point of taking home and stabling a horse and empty cart each night? It seems likely that the majority were owned by the large companies, in the same way that haulage and transportation companies operate today, but also including smaller owner operators.
OH has Liverpool dock workers and carters in his tree and I assumed (rightly or wrongly) that they used hand carts. :-\
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My 2 x g.grandfather was a carter in Hull. In 1888 he had his horse and cart stolen by his son in law. The newspaper report quotes IC, alias GS - an elderly man was charged on warrant with stealing a horse and cat the property of GRM. The elderly son in law was actually 52 at the time, strange because in 1870 when he was also in trouble with the police he was called a young man, he was then aged 34.
My 2 x g.grandfather lived at 122 English St, Hull at the time, which is fairly close to Albert Docks so I've no idea where he stabled the horse. English St is still there, but where there were houses there are now modern warehouse buildings.
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In Glasgow carts were often stored in the open ground floor of a building while horses were stabled on the floors above, horse-ramps being installed for this, the attic was used for storing hay & corn, hoists being installed for the purpose. The tramcar depot alone had stabling for nearly 500 horses. This is the scale necessary & would be the case in all big cities. The odd horse in a back-yard is neither here nor there.
Skoosh.
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I was surprised that RT didn't seem to already know that most people, across England, would have been working class, with many living in crowded slum conditions due to industrialisation. As another poster said, it wasn't exceptional to his family.
Also thought the descriptions of Liverpool's religions was too simplistic. There would already have been many English Catholics in Lancashire, as well as the dominant Church of England. Methodism was popular in the north too and also "Chapel" from the many Welsh Immigrants into Liverpool. There are also all the religiously mixed families, which contradicts the exaggerated "sectarian" narrative of the programme
I was confused as to why they insisted on using the word "Protestant", incessantly, to describe a family who were Church of England? I wouldn't describe the CoE as a strictly "Protestant" church, not in the same way as Scottish Calvinist is for example. The CoE still retains many Catholic features.
As with the Liz Bonnin episode, I thought there was too much political agenda and supposition going on
Seems the Queen disagrees re the Protestant Religion.
https://www.royal.uk/coronation-oath-2-june-1953
Imber
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I quite enjoyed this episode. At the beginning he said that he wanted to find out where the Tomlinsons came from, so I was expecting them to go back further into his family history to search for the origns of the surname, or where the first Tomlinson in his line originated, so I was slightly disappointed that they did not ...
All labourers worked hard back then and I'm not sure if Carters were any worse off than other labourers. I did not get the impression, as some others did, that he thought that this was exceptional to his family.
An occupation that has not been covered before on WDYTYA - so it made a change.
PS. BTW, I think the long hair suits him. ;)
If I understand this, then the use of "Protestant" in this programme was incorrect?https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestantism
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I have heard the Church of England described by a vicar as "Reformed Catholic", but of course when we think of all the diverse non-Roman Catholic churches we need an umbrella description, so "Protestant" is a convenient term to use.
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In the mid 1970s I was at a comedy in a Belfast theatre in which the following dialogue occurred (I'm drawing from memory, but it's close enough):
"Are you a Catholic or Protestant?"
"Well actually, I'm Jewish"
"But are you a Catholic or Protestant Jew?"
The point was well made and very much of the time and place.
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My brother apparently came home from an isolation hospital (it was the 1940s and he had had scarlet fever) saying, "Mummy, am I a Proddy Dog?" He had met a Roman Catholic boy for the first time and remained friends with him until he married and moved away. My parents attended a Baptist church. This was Lancashire, where as already mentioned there were many Catholics at the time of Queen Mary, Elizabeth 1 and other later monarchs, who were subjected to persecution_ long before the Irish immigrants arrived.