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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Midlothian => Topic started by: janwbay on Tuesday 20 December 16 01:29 GMT (UK)
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Hello there.
I wonder if someone can help me please. I would like to find out what the temperature, conditions and weather was like on the night of 27th January 1930 in Morningside, Edinburgh.
A relative was found drowned in a burn, and I have a theory that she may have slipped in cold, icy conditions but have so far found nothing to prove or disprove my theory.
I have googled lots of weather and temperature related queries, and so far have found nothing to help.
Does anyone have any ideas where I should look, or who I should approach please? Any help would be much appreciated.
regards
Janice
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Janice,
The temperature in Scotland on 27th January 1930 was between 0'C and 2'C (average 1'C)
Source: http://www.rootschat.com/links/01j3u/
So yes the conditions were at or around freezing conditions.
When we look closer on that night's temperature, it dropped below freezing (-2'C the next morning).
Source: http://www.rootschat.com/links/01j3v/
Your theory sounds very plausible and likely considering the temperatures at the time.
Even a sustained exposure of 10'C or less for a relatively short period of time (ten minutes or so if memory serves me correctly) can prove fatal.
Trystan
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Hi Jan,
There's a good chance this was recorded in the newspapers i.e. a look-up request may yield more info?
Annie
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It is a very good idea to check newspapers.
She may have committed suicide or there may have been foul play involved in her drowning. Someone I was researching accidentally drowned in a canal after a drinking session in a local pub ... :( There could be any number of scenarios.
Was there a post mortem or an inquest?
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Was there a post mortem or an inquest?
There could not have been an inquest because there is no such thing as an inquest in Scotland.
First, was there anything in the Register of Corrected Entries? If there is, there will be an oval stamp in the left-hand column of the death certificate. RCEs can be viewed on Scotland's People - you need to scroll down to the bottom of the page, below the certificates, and click on the blue link.
There might have been a Fatal Accident Inquiry, though these are mostly held into accidents at work rather than other sorts of accident. If there was, there should be a record somewhere in the National Records of Scotland www.nrscotland.gov.uk
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I was not aware of that, thank you Forfarian. :)
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Thank you everyone for your help and input. It is much appreciated. Thank you for the weather record which shows that it was freezing in Scotland. I wonder if you can tell me if it is possible to see if it was icy, or snow had fallen in that particular area.
I have the death record and an RCE. Suicide was initially suspected, but asphyxia by drowning was the conclusion on the RCE. I will attach these here. The lady was a housekeeper in Edinburgh and lived in Dalhousie Terrace. She was last seen alive at 11pm on the 27th January and found on the 28th January in the Braid Burn.
We have been to the scene. The burn runs parallel to the road along the bottom of a slight slope. I imagine she got off a bus and then had to walk to Dalhousie. This is pure speculation as I have no idea where she was last seen, only that it was 11pm, or where a bus would have dropped her off if she came from the centre of Edinburgh to Morningside.
I have searched the newspapers online and have only found the death notice. I have tried to get the record from the Procurator Fiscal but they appear to have been lost somewhere.
Does anyone have any more ideas as to where I can search, or who else I can approach? Any help is very much appreciated.
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I have the death record and an RCE. Suicide was initially suspected, but asphyxia by drowning was the conclusion on the RCE.
They aren't mutually exclusive, though usually the RCE will say if the court concluded it was suicide. Interested that the death certificate says 'felo de se' - was this an attempt to obfuscate, I wonder?
We have been to the scene. The burn runs parallel to the road along the bottom of a slight slope. I imagine she got off a bus and then had to walk to Dalhousie. This is pure speculation as I have no idea where she was last seen, only that it was 11pm, or where a bus would have dropped her off if she came from the centre of Edinburgh to Morningside.
That raises a whole lot of new questions!
If she did travel by tram or bus, why stay on the vehicle beyond the most convenient stop for Dalhousie Terrace, and then wander in the wrong direction away from the main road and tram/bus stop?
I think it is more likely that she walked from wherever she had been. People walked more than they do now! I have stayed just round the corner from Dalhousie Terrace and it took me much less than an hour to walk to the city centre.
The death certificate says she was in the Braid Burn east of Braid Road. Dalhousie Terrace is west of Comiston Road, which in turn is west of Braid Road. If she was coming out from the city centre to go home there is no reason why she would be anywhere near the Braid Burn. Perhaps she was visiting someone in the Greenbank area, fell into the burn while making her way home and was swept down the burn and under the bridges to be eventually found in the Hermitage of Braid.
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Does not the cause of death as "Apparently drowning" with the addition of "Felo de se" mean that this MD suspected suicide? :-\
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Does not the cause of death as "Apparently drowning" with the addition of "Felo de se" mean that this MD suspected suicide? :-\
Yes. But the RCE doesn't repeat it.
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I have only ever seen a couple of RCEs and know very little about them, hence my question/s. :)
Is it unusual for the cause of death on an RCE to differ from what the MD, who would have viewed the body, determined the cause of death to be?
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I have only ever seen a couple of RCEs and know very little about them, hence my question/s. :)
Is it unusual for the cause of death on an RCE to differ from what the MD, who would have viewed the body, determined the cause of death to be?
Not usually, but sometimes it varies slightly.
However in this case the cause of death is drowning; both the certificate and the RCE agree on this. Suicide isn't the cause of death, though it could be that the death was self-inflicted.
Note that the MD who is named in the RCE is the same one who is named in the death certificate.
My guess (and it is only a guess) is that the MD was reminded that saying 'felo de se' involved making an assumption about how she came to be in the burn in the first place, and in the absence of any corroborative evidence to support the idea that it was suicide it was not appropriate to make that assumption.
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Thanks again everyone for your input and suggestions, and for the weather records trystan.
You are all making me think now. The idea that she maybe was visiting someone in Greenbank and was swept down the burn is an idea worth pursuing.
As to the buses or trams, the route may be different to what it was in 1930, so I don't really know where she would have got off of the vehicle.
The death certificate says she was seen at 11pm the previous night (27th) but not where she was seen. I wouldn't think that if it was a freezing night, she would walk all the way from the city centre. I imagine she would have got a bus or tram, or perhaps she got a lift or a taxi. Actually, that thought had never occurred to me before.
Does anyone know where I could get more local information. When I googled the Braid Burn, it says that the burn is prone to flooding. Could it have been flooded that night? Though very cold that night, would it have been icy and slippy? Can you tell me which newspaper might have reported on the inquest by the Procurator Fiscal. I have tried the Scotsman online records but don't know what else to try?
As to the cause of death, the Death Certificate was issued on the 30th January 1930 and suicide was suspected. After the inquiry was carried out, the Procurator fiscal decided that it was drowning but didn't say suicide. I don't really know if it is usual for the RCE to differ from the death certificate Ruskie. I'd love to know what evidence was said in the inquiry. I don't know if there was a post mortem Forfarian. How do we know she wasn't thrown into the burn? Surely it would have been reported somewhere? What newspaper would you suggest Rosinish?
We have been to the area and looked at maps. We believe that the only place where she could have been found in the Braid Burn, east of Braid Road, is within the grounds of the country park. The burn then goes under the road, to the west side of Braid Road.
Any thoughts or suggestions would be much appreciated.
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I have only ever seen a couple of RCEs and know very little about them, hence my question/s. :)
Is it unusual for the cause of death on an RCE to differ from what the MD, who would have viewed the body, determined the cause of death to be?
Not usually, but sometimes it varies slightly.
However in this case the cause of death is drowning; both the certificate and the RCE agree on this. Suicide isn't the cause of death, though it could be that it was the consequence of suicide.
Note that the MD who is named in the RCE is the same one who is named in the death certificate.
Thank you Forfarian - It's very interesting. (I had not noticed it was the same MD on both documents)
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Hi
I note that you are not in Edinburgh. If you were I would suggest a visit to the Scottish Library in Edinburgh Central Library on George IV Bridge. Directly over the road is the National Library of Scotland. Newspaper wise apart from the Scotsman there is the Edinburgh Evening News (I note that its 1930 editions are not yet part of the British Newspaper Archive) and the now defunct Evening Dispatch.
The Edinburgh suburban railway line will have been in operation in 1930 - just another transport option to consider. Morningside Station was the nearest station.
William
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As to the buses or trams, the route may be different to what it was in 1930, so I don't really know where she would have got off of the vehicle.
It was probably along the main road, that is, Comiston Road, the same as it is today.
I wouldn't think that if it was a freezing night, she would walk all the way from the city centre.
See above. People did walk more then that we do now.
When I googled the Braid Burn, it says that the burn is prone to flooding. Could it have been flooded that night? Though very cold that night, would it have been icy and slippy?
Possibly yes to both questions.
Can you tell me which newspaper might have reported on the inquest by the Procurator Fiscal.
See my earlier reply. There could not have been an inquest. There is no such thing as an inquest in Scots Law. Please try to forget the word 'inquest' altogether in relation to this incident.
I have tried the Scotsman online records but don't know what else to try?
The only other Edinburgh paper that springs to mind is the Edinburgh Evening News.
I don't really know if it is usual for the RCE to differ from the death certificate.
The RCE did not differ from the death certificate. They both gave the cause of death as drowning.
I'd love to know what evidence was said in the inquiry.
There may not have been any court proceedings. If the Procurator Fiscal did not have any evidence that there was any reason to think it was other than accidental, the only record could be the papers in the Fiscal's files.
I don't know if there was a post mortem.
If the doctor was satisifed that the cause of death was drowing, and there was no reason to suspect anything else, there would probably not have been a full post-mortem.
How do we know she wasn't thrown into the burn?
You don't. What you do know is that the relevant officer of the law, i.e. the Procurator Fiscal, saw no evidence to suggest it was anything other than an accident.
Surely it would have been reported somewhere?
Not necessarily. An unfortunate accident to an obscure middle-aged spinster might not have interested the papers.
We have been to the area and looked at maps. We believe that the only place where she could have been found in the Braid Burn, east of Braid Road, is within the grounds of the country park.
Yes. See my earlier reply.
The burn then goes under the road, to the west side of Braid Road.
No. Other way round. The burn rises in the Pentland Hills, flows north through the Braidburn Valley, under Comiston Road, then eastwards under Braid Road and through the Hermitage of Braid (country park). The it goes under the Cameron Toll Shopping Centre (which has been known to be flooded; I well remember the area being under a couple of feet of water one July in the 1980s) then round to the north of Arthur's Seat to enter the sea at Portobello.
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Thanks for your replies Forfarian, Millmoor, Ruskie, Trystan, Rosinish. I realise that there are no inquests in Scotland. Can you tell me the correct term to use please?
I will try to get up to Edinburgh and search the Evening News and the Evening Dispatch if possible.
Millmoor, I will have a look as to where the station in Morningside is in relation to where she was found. Thanks.
The site at present has a wall separating it from the pavement, but that may not have been there in January 1930.
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Do you have any family members still living who may have heard tales of her misadventure?
Any family rumours perhaps?
Her last sighting at 11pm is quite late for her to be out alone on a cold night. :-\
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I realise that there are no inquests in Scotland. Can you tell me the correct term to use please.
See http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=761392.msg6127177#msg6127177
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Thank you very much to everyone for their help and suggestions.
regards
Jan
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I was raised in the area between Dalhousie Terrace and Braid Road, so know the area well. To head for 28 Dalhousie Terrace by bus from the city centre, the nearest bus stop is in Comiston Road, almost opposite Craiglea Drive. It was there (and still is) by the time I was first around in the 1960s, and I suspect was there from much earlier - probably from when the trams came to the area in the late 19th century. However, there is nothing to say that she had arrived by bus that evening.
If you are prepared to speculate, perhaps she had been visiting somebody further up the hill on Braid Road, by the Braid Hills Hotel, or a bit southwards - many of the houses there now were built well before 1930. On her way homewards, she could have been "caught short" and decided to head through the gateway of the Hermitage of Braid to go behind a tree for a "comfort break". In the dark away from Braid Road, she may have been unlucky and chosen a tree on the downslope to the burn to go behind, and lost her footing, and fallen into the burn and drowned.
The Google Maps vehicle has been along the road into the Hermitage of Braid, so you can see the bridge over the burn, and the road running parallel to the burn as it heads eastwards.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@55.9193222,-3.2101293,3a,75y,143.59h,109.55t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1so0tDxNEpRDUyU1t49oTN9Q!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en
The burn is less than a foot deep and free flowing in this area. At just below freezing point, the burn wouldn't be frozen over, but the muddy slope down to the burn could easily have been slippery. The surface of the burn is about three to four feet lower than road level near to the bridge just inside the Hermitage gates.
Food for thought,
ADP
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Some 60 years ago, I belonged to Braidburn Athletic Club and, as the name suggests, most of our Saturday cross-country runs took place in or around the Hermitage of Braid park. This is why I took an interest in this thread.
As was noted earlier, there is no indication where she was last sighted or by whom. It could very well have been by someone in the house where she worked/lived. Nor is there any indication of where or when she entered the burn - only that she was found immediately east of the Braid Road bridge at noon the following day. I think death by suicide would have caused additional stress to the family and the doctor would not have made that notation on the death certificate unless there were significant indications of that being the case. I realize that suicide was not indicated on the RCE but it was not "corrected" either, and that is the purpose of the RCE - to correct any incorrect or missing information in the death certificate.
I think it is possible that she left her home on the morning of Jan 28 and went to the closest convenient place to enter the burn.
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I must apologise for taking so long to reply to people I just spent a long time writing replies to ADP and IanB. I tried to preview it and lost it completely. I am very tired so will try again tomorrow.
Thank you
regards
Jan
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Been there. Done that. Felt sick :(