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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: jmf2106 on Sunday 18 December 16 22:21 GMT (UK)
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Apologies if I'm posting this in the wrong place but I can't narrow it down to a geographical area. I'm trying to find the marriage of my g-grandfather Herbert Croft (b1880 in Bradford). My grandfather (herbert's son) was born in 1915 and his mother was Elizabeth Norris. Herbert and Elizabeth weren't married when my grandfather was born. They did eventually marry in 1930 but on the marriage certificate it said that Herbert was a widow. I'm trying to find out who he married and when. Herbert was in an industrial school in Everton on the 1891 census and he was conscripted to the army in 1899 and was posted to South Africa and India until 1907 when he transferred to army reserve. He remained a reserve until he was discharged in 1911. Am I right in thinking that he would come back to England as a reserve until discharge? On the 1911 census he lived in Shipley (nr Bradford) and Elizabeth Norris was a boarder but there was no one else living in the house. The census states that he was married at that time, but who to? That is the question! The reason why I can't pin it down to a particular area is that I've searched the records for a marriage in West Yorkshire and can't find anything for Herbert (his father's name was Albert Harrison Croft by the way). I wonder if when he came back to England he didn't come straight back to Bradford and lived somewhere else where he got married. The time frame I'm looking at is 1907 to 1911 but is it possible he got married either in South Africa or India while he was serving in the army? This is something I've been trying to discover for a number of years and I gave up a couple of years ago. Now I'm back on my family tree and subscribed to Ancestry again I thought there might be some new records which would help but if there are I can't find them! Any help or advice, or pointing in the right direction would be greatly appreciated. Many thanks, Jackie :)
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The number of years married is shown on the 1911 entry so marriage year is 1906-early1907
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I've found Herbert Croft aged 30 and Elizabeth Norris aged 27 on the 1911 census.
On BMD site is the marriage of Herbert Croft and Elizabeth Norris in North Bierley in 1930.
A child with the surname Croft and mothers maiden name Norris was born in North Bierley in M1931 -
by this time if it's the same Elizabeth Norris would have been 46/47 years old.
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The 1930 marriage is already known about but Herbert is shown as married in 1911 and a widower on the 1930 cert.
It is his first marriage between 1906 - 1907 that is the puzzle
The person born in 1931 mentioned in the reply above may still be alive so his details need to be removed
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Thanks for your replies. As Carole W says it's Herbert's first marriage which I'm looking for. Jackie
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Yorkshire Bmd has a marriage in 1906 of a Herbert Croft to an Annie Holt, at St Hilda, Leeds, Knowshorpe. A possibility.
Regards
Kathb
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Freebmd also has a marriage in the March Quarter of 1906 of a Herbert Croft and on the same page is an Annie Holt. Reference: Leeds 9b 519.
Regards
Kathb
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Yorkshire Bmd has a marriage in 1906 of a Herbert Croft to an Annie Holt, at St Hilda, Leeds, Knowshorpe. A possibility.
Regards
Kathb
Image on Ancestry, Herbert's father's name is George
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That Herbert and wife Annie can be found on 1911 census
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Thanks. I'm aware of Herbert and Annie Holt but as Lizzie says his father isn't Albert Harrison Croft. I appreciate your help though :)
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I've found Herbert Croft aged 30 and Elizabeth Norris aged 27 on the 1911 census.
On BMD site is the marriage of Herbert Croft and Elizabeth Norris in North Bierley in 1930.
A child with the surname Croft and mothers maiden name Norris was born in North Bierley in M1931 -
by this time if it's the same Elizabeth Norris would have been 46/47 years old.
Isn't that a re-registration of the 1915 birth?
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Hi, yes it's a re-registration. It looks like they re-registered my grandfather's birth after they got married in 1930. I also have my grandfather's original birth certificate from 1915.
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If they waited until 1930 to get married, then it is likely the first wife died very shortly before.
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Hi Lizzie, yes I think the same! Maybe my grandfather didn't know they weren't married when he was born. Otherwise why would they bother re-registering his birth?
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Usually when you can't find a marriage you may have to consider that there may not have been one - one party already married is the usual case (bigamy a crime, cohabitation not). However in this case it's the first marriage that's missing and caused a long postponement of the 2nd.
I suspect the first marriage was abroad, always a possibility for servicemen. You could have knocked me down with a feather when I found out that one such relative married in 1919 in Russia (now Georgia) - and my step-granddad married first at the Tientsin Consulate in China.
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Hi Chris, I wondered whether he had got married abroad, either in South Africa or India. If that was the case though, do you think he would be in touch with his spouse when he returned to England and then to be informed when she died approximately 20 years later? I do think it's a strong possibility they waited until the first wife died and got married soon after but if that was the case and if the first wife lived abroad, Herbert would have had to be in contact with her over a long period of time. I suppose nothing's impossible!
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It's quite possible that he married abroad, and it's also possible that his bride was British. There were lots of expat families, particularly in India. I have relatives who were born or married in India while their fathers were serving soldiers there around this time. So don't assume that the wife would have remained abroad - she could have returned to the UK with or without him.
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Thanks, that's a good point. I've just looked up all women called Croft on Free BMD who died in the two years before Herbert married Elizabeth. I've cross referenced these names with marriages to a Herbert Croft from 1905 to 1908 and there's nothing. It's looking more and more like a marriage abroad. I wouldn't even know where to start with that one! :-[
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Hi Chris, I wondered whether he had got married abroad, either in South Africa or India. If that was the case though, do you think he would be in touch with his spouse when he returned to England and then to be informed when she died approximately 20 years later? I do think it's a strong possibility they waited until the first wife died and got married soon after but if that was the case and if the first wife lived abroad, Herbert would have had to be in contact with her over a long period of time. I suppose nothing's impossible!
If he left his first wife behind - it's very possible - then he may not have been in contact. Perhaps he thought - 20 years is long enough. let's assume she's dead?
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Yes, maybe. I never thought of that!
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here's something it may be worth digging for in the local papers, in case it gives any clues. It appears Herbert
Norris Croft was found guilty on 3 Dec 1914 of "attempting to discharge a loaded revolver at James William Cockshott with intent to maim, at Shipley, 24 October 1914" He was bound over for a year and had to refrain from partaking of alcohol
Pretty sure it's the same man. he's 34 and described as a tailor. The paperwork mentions a previous conviction in 1898 for stealing, which in turn refers to his years in an industrial school in Liverpool
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Hi Mabel, thanks very much. I've never heard anything like that about him! I will do some research and see what I can find. Thanks again.
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here's something it may be worth digging for in the local papers, in case it gives any clues. It appears Herbert Norris Croft was found guilty on 3 Dec 1914 of "attempting to discharge a loaded revolver at James William Cockshott with intent to maim, at Shipley, 24 October 1914" He was bound over for a year and had to refrain from partaking of alcohol
Pretty sure it's the same man. he's 34 and described as a tailor. The paperwork mentions a previous conviction in 1898 for stealing, which in turn refers to his years in an industrial school in Liverpool
Several reports come up, on others he is described as a woolcomber which is same occupation as on his marriage to Elizabeth Norris
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Thanks Lizzie. Where can I find the information? I've found the court records on Ancestry but that's all. I've looked into the man he shot and it looks like he was a police constable!
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They were from the Newspaper archive available on FindMyPast. I can only see snippet on the free search as I don't have a sub at the moment.
Another thing which might fit in. Herbert's sister Ada married John Thomas Smith at Christ Church Windhill on 2 Jun 1903. Browsing through the images for that church, a Herbert Croft was a witness to a marriage between Jesse Wilson (widower) age 30 occ Labourer, father William Watson Wilson occ Mason and Harriet Kelk sp 27 occ weaver, father Edward Kelk (deceased) on 20 Nov 1909. Other witness Mary Ann Blackburn. He has signed H Croft first, then squeezed in "erbert" next to the H. The H is quite distinctive. If it is your man it places him near Shipley in late 1909.
Does his service record give any clue where he might have been in 1906/07? Even if it says "Home" it could be Scotland or Ireland.
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Hi Lizzie, thanks for the information. I will try and compare the signature with his military records but it sounds quite promising as I've found an entry in the electoral register from 1910 so it looks he was in Shipley then. He was in South Africa to 1.3.07 and after that it says 'Home' for only two days from 2.3.07 to 4.3.07. I'm not sure how much travelling time there would be from SA and what that would come under. Following that it says Reserve from 5.3.07 to 16.7.11. Presumably as a Reserve he would back home then?
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This may be a complete red herring, but bearing in mind that on Herbert's military record he was in India 15 Dec 1902 to 15 Feb 1906, there is this birth
"India Births and Baptisms, 1786-1947," database, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FGWW-CZH : 8 December 2014), H. R. Croft in entry for Margaret Mary Croft, 17 Sep 1905; citing , reference ; FHL microfilm 527,529.
Margaret Mary Croft, B. 02 Jul 1905, Bpt 17 Sep 1905. Thonze, Bengal, India.
Father: H R Croft (Possible mistrancription of H N Croft??)
Mother: Helene
Ellen
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Hi Ellen, thanks for the information. As far as I know Herbert didn't have a middle name. I do think it's a strong possibility that he got married in India or South Africa though. I haven't done any research in those areas so that will have to be my next job! Jackie