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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Durham => England => Durham Lookup Requests => Topic started by: swanandprasad on Friday 16 December 16 20:04 GMT (UK)
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Does anyone know more about the third Spooner who died in the RMS Empress of Ireland shipping disaster.
http://www.liverpoolmuseums.org.uk/maritime/visit/floor-plan/life-at-sea/empress/sinking.aspx
Ralph Spooner (b 1840) and his wife Margaret Hill (1848) were definite casualties.
I had been told by previous researchers that their daughter Margaret also died in that disaster.
Now someone else has done some digging around and it appears that the third person was given as 'Mrs Ralph Spooner, jr (Mary, nee Smith)'.
http://www.liverpoolmuseums.org.uk/maritime/visit/floor-plan/life-at-sea/empress/Third-class-passengers-Empress-of-Ireland.pdf
This doesn't match what other researchers have shared.
According to them Mary Elizabeth Spooner (b 1885 Hetton Downs, Co. Durham) married Albert Bewley and her sister Margaret Ethel (b 1883 Downs, Co. Durham) married Thomas Russell.
There are no marriages that match those names on FreeBMD so i presume they happened in Canada where the family lived for about 9 years before the disaster in 1914.
Does anyone know anything more about the marriages of these 2 girls and where the Smith surname came from. Perhaps it is an error by the compilers of the list.
I have also seen the passenger list here which gives no first names.
http://sea-viewdiving.com/shipwreck_info/empress_home/passengerlist/page17.htm
If that top list is correct then the third person must have been their daughter in law.
Their son Ralph married a Margaret (that could be her but again the name is wrong).
The son Robert married a Nellie.
Both sons were in Canada as were their parents in 1911.
I'm hoping someone has already done some research on this.
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.....According to them Mary Elizabeth Spooner (b 1885 Hetton Downs, Co. Durham) married Albert Bewley and her sister Margaret Ethel (b 1883 Downs, Co. Durham) married Thomas Russell.
There are no marriages that match those names on FreeBMD so i presume they happened in Canada where the family lived for about 9 years before the disaster in 1914......
Just to get you started here is the marriage for Margaret Ethel Spooner to Thomas Russell. The marriage took place in Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada on April 23, 1914. If this link does not open properly for you it is probably also available on Family Search.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01j2l/
sami
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Can't find the marriage for Mary Elizabeth Spooner but Mary Elizabeth Bewley (nee Spooner) died in Vancouver, B.C. Canada on June 21, 1975.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01j2m/
Hope that helps a bit.
sami
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Robert Wilfred Spooner married Ellen Elizabeth Watts by special licence in Vancouver, B.C. on October 1, 1916.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01j2n/
Ralph Spooner, age 37, Widower, married Rachael Kells in Vancouver, B.C. on August 26, 1916. So it's possible it was his previous wife that died on the Empress of Ireland.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01j2o/
Still looking...
sami
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Wow fantastic Sami. I need to digest that.
Any chance you could look up a marriage between Ralph Spooner (the brother) and Margaret Smith (possibly Mary Smith) probably Vancouver probably between 1905-1911 possibly 1905-1914.
I have his wife as Margaret but the shipping casualty is given as Mary so could be either.
Believe it or not there are NO marriages anywhere in England between a Ralph Spooner and either a Mary or Margaret Smith so i think they must have married in Canada.
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Well, on the 1911 Canada census, Ralph Spooner (born Dec. 1878) is living with his wife Mary (born Dec 1877, immigrated to Canada in 1906). They are living beside Ralph's parents. Can't find the marriage for Ralph and Mary yet, but they must have married between 1906 and 1911.
http://data2.collectionscanada.gc.ca/1911/jpg/e001942027.jpg
Still having a look....
sami
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Can't seem to find a marriage between Ralph and Margaret/Mary Smith.
Not that this helps - but when Ralph (born Dec 10, 1879) dies on Oct. 15, 1947 he is married to Lucy Dunderdale.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01j2p/
I'll give it a bit of a think. Perhaps someone else will have some luck with the Ralph/Mary marriage.
Hope the links are opening properly for you. You can search B.C. Birth, Marriage and Death certs on the BC Archives website.
http://search-collections.royalbcmuseum.bc.ca/Genealogy
sami
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Sami i think you have cracked it.
The fatality was very probably Mary Smith wife of Ralph Spooner.
I found another source which puts the deaths of the parents (in law) as Quebec, Canada.
That could be assumption. The shipping disaster happened in the St Lawrence River on 29 May 1914 so i don't know if they will be registered as deaths in Quebec.
Unfortunately that source didn't mention the third Spooner.
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Sami everything opened fine.
Fantastic
Thanks you so much.
I know at least 4 researchers can add all this to their tree.
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Perhaps Ralph and Mary married in Quebec. Can't find a marriage for them in B.C.
Just for interest - This past summer I was travelling in Nova Scotia and the Pier 21 Museum in Halifax had an exhibition on the Empress of Ireland disaster. It was a very interesting display.
sami
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For other Spooner researchers,
Found the death cert of Margaret Ethel Spooner
http://search-collections.royalbcmuseum.bc.ca/Image/Genealogy/c46d9c3a-70aa-44de-b2b8-37cf138df3a6
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Hi again:
Not sure how much information you already have on the Spooner family. But here is a small newspaper announcement for the marriage of Margaret Spooner and a W. Russell in the "Greater Vancouver Chinook", page 3, dated Saturday May 2, 1914.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01j2q/
sami
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Well, on the 1911 Canada census, Ralph Spooner (born Dec. 1878) is living with his wife Mary (born Dec 1877, immigrated to Canada in 1906). They are living beside Ralph's parents. Can't find the marriage for Ralph and Mary yet, but they must have married between 1906 and 1911.
http://data2.collectionscanada.gc.ca/1911/jpg/e001942027.jpg
sami
Sami can you read the street name on that census. If you familiar with Vancouver you might see things i can't. I read 4340 easily but not the street.
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Not easy to read the street name. I've done some looking in the Vancouver City Directories held at the Vancouver Public Library.
In the 1910 Directory there is a Ralph W. and Margaret Spooner living at 983 7th Ave W, and a R. Spooner, blacksmith, living at Gartley Rd Cedar Cottage.
In the 1913 Directory Ralph and Margaret E. Spooner are living at 4368 Gartley Rd.
I lean towards Gartley as the street name on the 1911 Census but the first letter on the census doesn't seem much like a 'G'.
The Directories can be searched online:
http://www.vpl.ca/bccd/index.php/browse/index
sami
Added.........Apparently the name Gartley Road was changed to Welwyn Street. In the 1915 Directory there is a R. Spooner listed for 4348 Welwyn. The city directories were not updated every year.
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Thank you for going so far out of your way.
Ralph jnr was a Blacksmith so that is the right address. I should be able to trace the street with so much info.
It has taken me all day to add only half of the data into my software, phew.
And along the way i have discovered so many search possibilities which are new to me.
Thanks again.
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In the 1910 Directory there is a Ralph W. and Margaret Spooner living at 983 7th Ave W, and a R. Spooner, blacksmith, living at Gartley Rd Cedar Cottage.
Again a goldmine!
Was it normal for the wife to be listed? I am just wondering why Ralph Jnr the Blacksmith doesn't have his wife Mary of 1911 census with him in 1910.
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The directories can be quite inconsistent so someone not being listed doesn't necessarily mean they were not there (if that makes any sense ;) ). Note the following:
"NOTE: The city directories at the Archives were compiled by various companies, so the organization of the information contained within the directories may vary significantly among volumes and publishers."
There is a reference guide for searching the directories, it's worthwhile to have a look at it if you are going to be searching. Especially the part concerning the abbreviations used:
http://vancouver.ca/files/cov/archives-reference-guide-city-directories.pdf
You may also be interested in searching British Columbia Wills on FamilySearch:
https://familysearch.org/search/collection/2001882
sami
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Thanks again Sami.
I wish other provinces were as good at record's accessibility as BC.
I got lost today tracing the movements of another branch of my family through the streets of Vancouver.
Shame those Family Search Wills only go up to 1939. I found one of the above family on the index which i would like to look at.
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You can contact the RBCM and request a quote:
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01j3g/
The subject on Wills in British Columbia was covered recently in another RootsChat thread. You might find it interesting to read through it:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=760425.0
I see you have posted this M Spooner thread in Durham Lookup Requests. I hadn't noticed that before since it was the Empress of Ireland that caught my eye. If you have further questions regarding your family in Vancouver you might want to post on the Canada page. There are a number of researchers who will have other ideas for sources that could help you.
sami :)
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As I was looking up information for you, I noticed that one of the survivors from the disaster was Captain Rufus Spooner, a member of the Salvation Army Band.
Was he related to your Spooners?
sami
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Thanks Sami.
No known relation. He isn't from NE England so any relationship will probably be distant.
Sami where did you access that 1911 census you gave. Is it behind a paywall.
Just wondering if i am missing a public source.
I found some of those Spooners on another 1911 Census on FamilySearch but it didn't have a photo so some of the details (years since emigration) were not included. So i was looking for the photo
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:27XY-4V5
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Well done Sami. :) Nice work on figuring out that street name.
You can access for free (except 1921) Canadian census' from Library and Archives Canada,
left side of page, click on the year you wish to peruse.
http://www.bac-lac.gc.ca/eng/census/Pages/census.aspx
Cheers,
DB
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Thanks dbree.
Now i realise i have been there before but forgot. So thanks again.
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Swanandprasad - I've only just discovered rootschat and this post is a couple of years old so you may have already got your answer. Ralph Spooner married Mary Smith 21 Jun 1906 in Winnipeg, Manitoba. Do you have a copy of the Empress of Ireland Passenger list? I have it if you don't. I believe from other posts of yours you are descended from Jane Ann Spooner who is my 4th great aunt. I am descended from her brother Ralph 1815 and his son George 1837. His son George 1874 - 1940 was my great grandfather and he travelled on the Empress of Ireland in 1911 to work for a few months at the mines at Nanaimo, Vancouver. I presume we are cousins.
Regards
Dawn
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Hi Dawn,
yes we are a distant cousins.
Ralph Spooner and Mary Hunter were my 3rd great grandparents.
I don't have much on Mary Smith only her date of death in the disaster and nothing on her children or her parents.
In fact i have no children for Ralph from any of his 3 wives.
It would be good to get in touch to share info.
I got my info from Alan Hilton (who gave Mary Smith's first name as Margaret) and free on-line BC and Canadian websites.
I only have the passenger list from here
http://sea-viewdiving.com/shipwreck_info/empress_home/passengerlist/page17.htm (http://sea-viewdiving.com/shipwreck_info/empress_home/passengerlist/page17.htm)
The only thing i have on your great grandparents George and Elizabeth Belshaw is from the 1901 and 1901 Census's which gives three children and their marriage (quarter only). Ralph isn't with his family on 1911 census which is explained by your info of him travelling to Canada in 1911.
Please get in touch firstly here swamianandprasad[at]yahoo.com