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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Lancashire => Topic started by: sue 123 on Thursday 15 December 16 11:52 GMT (UK)
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Hi All,
I'm looking to find ancestors for my great grandfather mentioned above.
I thought his father was Robert Jones born Liverpool 1832 and married to Hannah Finch but have become a bit stuck as so many Robert Jones and Joseph Jones!!
I found the 1881 census showing Robert & Hannah living with the family in Cazneau Street and Thomas Finch born Wigan ( father in law) - other than that I cant find birth certs or marriage certs.
Does anyone have any suggestions to make sure that I am not going off on the wrong track???!!!
Thanks
:)
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When Joseph marries, who does he name as his father, and what is both his and fathers occupation?
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FreeBMD has two entries for a Joseph Jones registered 1874 Liverpool. Both are Sep 1874 vol 8b pages 37 and 47.
The one on page 37 has mother's maiden name as Miller and on page 47 the name is Roberts
I cannot find a registration for a Joseph Jones born Liverpool between 1870 and 1880 with mother's maiden name Finch
Looking for the registrations of the other children on the 1881 census they all come up with mother's maiden name of Miller, not a single Finch to be found.
The entry on lancs opc for the marriage of Robert Jones to Hannah Miller in 1861 states she is a spinster so obviously hasn't been married before. Can't find a Jones/Finch marriage at all so am at a loss to say why the Census says Father in law is Thomas Finch
Emeltom
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When Joseph marries, who does he name as his father, and what is both his and fathers occupation?
Joseph was a boilermaker/boilerman. His father was Robert and he was a porter/or docker.
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FreeBMD has two entries for a Joseph Jones registered 1874 Liverpool. Both are Sep 1874 vol 8b pages 37 and 47.
The one on page 37 has mother's maiden name as Miller and on page 47 the name is Roberts
I cannot find a registration for a Joseph Jones born Liverpool between 1870 and 1880 with mother's maiden name Finch
Looking for the registrations of the other children on the 1881 census they all come up with mother's maiden name of Miller, not a single Finch to be found.
The entry on lancs opc for the marriage of Robert Jones to Hannah Miller in 1861 states she is a spinster so obviously hasn't been married before. Can't find a Jones/Finch marriage at all so am at a loss to say why the Census says Father in law is Thomas Finch
Emeltom
Yes indeed very confusing ??? According to other info there may have been 2 Roberts married to 2 Hannahs both with a son called Joseph in the Liverpool area !!!! Joseph had brothers called Robert & Edward .
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Joseph was a boilermaker/boilerman. His father was Robert and he was a porter/or docker.
What are the occupations and addresses on the marriage certificate?
Debra :D
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Joseph was a boilermaker/boilerman. His father was Robert and he was a porter/or docker.
What are the occupations and addresses on the marriage certificate?
Debra :D
Hi,
Unfortunately I dont have the marriage certs so that doesn't help the search?!!! My mum started the research so I thought I would help by double checking her info by doing on line searches at my library on websites like Ancestry/Genes etc but looks as though Father Christmas may have to pay for a subscription for me to unravel the Jones ;)
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I found the 1881 census showing Robert & Hannah living with the family in Cazneau Street
and Thomas Finch born Wigan ( father in law)
1881c
Robert JONES 48 occ Cotton Porter
Hannah 41
Edward 17
Robert 9
JOSEPH 6
Jane 4
Thomas FINCH 75 Wigan occ Hawker
All others born Liverpool
Have you looked for TF on earlier censuses to see if that leads anywhere?
There is this baptism record but don't know if it relates to the same Thomas
Thomas Finch fourth son of Thomas Finch of King Street Taylor &
Mary his wife dau of Stephen & Jinney Gaskell born 10 Sep 1807
Bapt. 3 Nov 1807 Wigan, All Saints, Lancashire
This appears to be Hannah Jones nee Miller
1871c RG10; Piece: 3791; Folio: 71; Page: 43
Robert JONES 40 Liverpool occ Rope Maker
Hannah 31
Thomas 9
Edward 7
John H 1
John MILLER brother 20
Hannah’s father Thomas Miller born 1816 Layton Lancashire occ Boatman
1861c RG 9; Piece: 2668; Folio: 58; Page: 20
Hannah MILLAR 21, brother John 10 with their parents Thomas & Jane
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Hello,
For information, there is an old thread regarding the same family names here
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=181976.
Which censuses definitely show your family, Sue?
Regards
Heywood
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Hello,
For information, there is an old thread regarding the same family names here
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=181976.
Which censuses definitely show your family, Sue?
Regards
Heywood
Thanks Heywood was just posting the info. I had found.........when I saw red writing
For info.
1851 HO107; Piece: 2177; Folio: 478; Page: 17
Thomas MILLER occ Mariner, Jane, HANNAH 11, John 10mths
1841 HO107; P 562;: E D: 50; F48; Page: 17
Thomas MILLER occ Mariner, Jean, HANNAH 16mths
Might be Robert
1861 RG 9 P 2395 Folio 25 pg 44
9 Ct 1 House Ben Johnson Street Liverpool
John Jones occ ropemaker
Jane
Robert 35 occ dock labourer
Edward
Jane
Hellen Smith visitor
All born Liverpool
Thomas Jones born 30 Jan 1862
Baptism 9 Mar 1862 Liverpool, St Peter
Robert Jones occ ROPE MAKER
Hannah Jones
Edward Jones born 24 Jan 1864
Baptism 14 Feb 1864 Liverpool, St Peter
Robert Jones occ ROPE MAKER
Hannah Jones
Robert Jones born 15 Jun 1871
Baptism 3 Jul 1871 Liverpool, St Peter
Robert Jones occ ROPE MAKER
Hannah Jones
Joseph Jones born 8 Jul 1874
Baptism 13 Sep 1874Liverpool, St Peter
Robert Jones occ PORTER
Hannah Jones
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Thanks Ladyhawk and Heywood,
I did have that information but my confusion is which Hannah??? as Hannah FINCH and Hannah MILLER both appear to be married to a Robert Jones with a son Joseph.
I am sure that there are 2 Robert Jones 1) a cotton porter and 2) a rope maker and there is not much connection between the 2 occupations.
Thanks also for the ref to the other Chat and I did contact that poster but we are working on 2 different families...... we think!!!
I need to get back to the library after Xmas.
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Here's baptism of Robert's dau Jane from 1881 census
Jane Jones born 4 Oct 1876 bpt 29th Oct.
Father Robert occ Cotton Porter mother Anne
Abode Cazenue 4 court 1 house
Something to look into when you go to the library
6 Mar 1903 Liverpool, All Saints
Jane Jones age 25, 2 ?ace Street father Robert occ Rope maker
John McDonald occ lab. father James occ joiner
Don't know if this will help Jane McDonald has her brother Joseph & a cousin surname Miller living with her
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Here’s a Robert Jones born c1836 Liverpool single whose occupation is a Cotton Porter
he’s lodging at 11 Kirby Street, Everton, Liverpool with the Hugh Thomas & family
1861 RG 9; Piece: 2710; Folio: 2; Page: 1
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I did have that information but my confusion is which Hannah??? as Hannah FINCH and Hannah MILLER both appear to be married to a Robert Jones with a son Joseph.
I need to get back to the library after Xmas.
Sue,
I can't see a Jones/Finch marriage in the indexes. Do you have that marriage?
Heywood
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As you say you don't actually have a copy of the marriage certificate are you absolutely sure that father Robert was porter/docker on the actual certificate or have you just picked this up from looking at the various census?
The reason I ask is that I am wondering if your Joseph was actually a year or so older than he states on 1901/1911 census - that's supposing your Joseph is the Boiler man shown as married to a Sarah??
In 1911 birthplace is Liverpool, in 1901 is Garston and always living in Toxteth Park (and on both census Joseph Jones is the only Boilerman of that age in Liverpool area and married to a Sarah).
In 1891 your Joseph would expect to be found with this profession or as an apprentice and there appears to only be one candidate:
Cleopas Street, Toxteth Park
Robert Jones 48 Boiler Maker Hawarden, Cheshire
Priscilla Jones 38 Seacombe, Cheshire
Joseph Jones 19 Boiler Maker App. Garston, Lancashire
Elizabeth J. Jones 16 ditto
Robert W. Jones 13 Liverpool
Mary C. Jones 11 ditto
Herbert Jones 7 ditto
Thomas B. Jones 4 ditto
Walter Jones 1 ditto
It just seems strange to me that the only Joseph Jones bc.1874 (plus/- 2 years) connected with Boiler Maker are the one married to Sarah in 1901 and 1911 and since this was a skilled profession would have been doing this work in 1891 and again, the only one is the one above on 1891 census who is indeed the son of a Robert but this man is a Boiler Maker himself!!
Hence the question was he definitely a porter/docker or have you just picked these up from looking at the various census and trying to find your Joseph?
This Robert Jones was already a Boiler Maker when he married Priscilla Brellisford 13/7/1873 St. Nicholas, Liverpool so don't know if son Joseph was born pre the marriage as shown bc.1872 or if this is actually a mistake. Who knows?
(As an aside, there is a tree on ancestry claiming that Robert/Priscilla's son Joseph married a lady named Alice Ann Dutton 1894 but this is wrong - you can view the marriage certificate and it clearly states that this Joseph's father was a Robert Jones, who was a Baker and census shows he was actually married to an Ann and did indeed have a son Joseph bc.1872. So the tree owner has attached their Joseph to the wrong couple! Beware Ancestry trees!!)
Have just double checked marriages on Ancestry and found this marriage which is the one for a Joseph Jones 22 Boiler Maker and Sarah Stevenson 21 27/10/1895 St. Matthews Church, Liverpool - is this your Joseph?? Because, if so, it definitely shows his father to be Robert Jones, Boiler Maker which does indeed make him the son of Robert and Priscilla.
Fingers crossed this is your man.
Annette
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As you say you don't actually have a copy of the marriage certificate are you absolutely sure that father Robert was porter/docker on the actual certificate or have you just picked this up from looking at the various census?
The reason I ask is that I am wondering if your Joseph was actually a year or so older than he states on 1901/1911 census - that's supposing your Joseph is the Boiler man shown as married to a Sarah??
In 1911 birthplace is Liverpool, in 1901 is Garston and always living in Toxteth Park (and on both census Joseph Jones is the only Boilerman of that age in Liverpool area and married to a Sarah).
In 1891 your Joseph would expect to be found with this profession or as an apprentice and there appears to only be one candidate:
Cleopas Street, Toxteth Park
Robert Jones 48 Boiler Maker Hawarden, Cheshire
Priscilla Jones 38 Seacombe, Cheshire
Joseph Jones 19 Boiler Maker App. Garston, Lancashire
Elizabeth J. Jones 16 ditto
Robert W. Jones 13 Liverpool
Mary C. Jones 11 ditto
Herbert Jones 7 ditto
Thomas B. Jones 4 ditto
Walter Jones 1 ditto
It just seems strange to me that the only Joseph Jones bc.1874 (plus/- 2 years) connected with Boiler Maker are the one married to Sarah in 1901 and 1911 and since this was a skilled profession would have been doing this work in 1891 and again, the only one is the one above on 1891 census who is indeed the son of a Robert but this man is a Boiler Maker himself!!
Hence the question was he definitely a porter/docker or have you just picked these up from looking at the various census and trying to find your Joseph?
This Robert Jones was already a Boiler Maker when he married Priscilla Brellisford 13/7/1873 St. Nicholas, Liverpool so don't know if son Joseph was born pre the marriage as shown bc.1872 or if this is actually a mistake. Who knows?
(As an aside, there is a tree on ancestry claiming that Robert/Priscilla's son Joseph married a lady named Alice Ann Dutton 1894 but this is wrong - you can view the marriage certificate and it clearly states that this Joseph's father was a Robert Jones, who was a Baker and census shows he was actually married to an Ann and did indeed have a son Joseph bc.1872. So the tree owner has attached their Joseph to the wrong couple! Beware Ancestry trees!!)
Have just double checked marriages on Ancestry and found this marriage which is the one for a Joseph Jones 22 Boiler Maker and Sarah Stevenson 21 27/10/1895 St. Matthews Church, Liverpool - is this your Joseph?? Because, if so, it definitely shows his father to be Robert Jones, Boiler Maker which does indeed make him the son of Robert and Priscilla.
Fingers crossed this is your man.
Annette
Wow!!!! I reckon you are correct and I've been barking up the wrong tree with the wrong Joseph and Robert ! Its not just the boilerman link which is crucial but also that Walter continued as a family name according to my mum.
I think I may have just got too excited by looking at other people's trees !! lesson learnt!
I now need to dig a bit further.
Thanks so much for all your help.
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Hi there seen this post and thought you may be able to help . Im doing my tree on ancestry Thomas howard jones born 4th december1921 silverdale avenue West derby Liverpool is MY dad father Robert joseph jones mother Florence wilson . Other jones harry howard jones john j . John g . Margrtet . Mary . Now i have a Robert joseph jones married to an ann ellen savage now done my dna test as struggling with the jones name it has come back with no matches but has come back with hannah finch what you are discussing any help
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Susantina - I usually avoid anything to do with the surname Jones but this one intrigued me.
First, you say your father born 1921 was the son of Robert Joseph Jones and Florence Wilson - however, the only marriage between a couple of these names didn't take place until 1933. Is this correct?
The Robert Joseph (who had a brother Harry Howard) was the son of the Robert Joseph Jones who married Ann Ellen Savage, as you mention. This Robert Joseph was born in 1866, son of a John Henry Howard Jones and wife Margaret Ashald who married 1862.
However, this John Henry Howard Jones - a mariner - is shown to be born circa 1833 Denbighshire (son of a Robert). Found on 1851 census in Toxteth and his parents are a Robert Jones, Cooper and Margaret.
As you can see, there is nowhere where a Hannah Finch fits into this particular family line which is somewhat bewildering. Since the parents of your father apparently didn't marry until 12 years after his birth I can't help wondering if the correct Robert Joseph has been identified as being the father of your father Thomas Howard Jones.
Annette
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Oh hi thank you for getting back to me . Iv come to the conclusion that my family tree is wrong yes I knew about Robert and Florence not marrying till 1933 and did wonder why. I did think I was on the right track until I did my DNA test . My results have come back and no matches to my jones tree so up loaded to gedmatch and a load of jones popped up Hannah finch Mary jones ,Jane jones so now in stuck all I knew of my dad was his name Thomas Howard jones and the date he died .
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Did your father marry anyone? If so, what was his father's name and occupation on the marriage certificate?
Debra :)
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I didn't get that as I knew when they married never thought of getting it for confirmation of names
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Do you have your fathers full birth certificate confirming his parents as Robert Joseph Jones and Florence Wilson? And, if so, what is Robert Joseph's occupation?
I can't see a likely entry on 1939 Register for a Robert and Florence in Liverpool so maybe the marriage certificate 1933 is the way to go if you are sure this couple are Thomas' parents.
Annette
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Oh hi thank you for getting back to me . Iv come to the conclusion that my family tree is wrong yes I knew about Robert and Florence not marrying till 1933 and did wonder why. I did think I was on the right track until I did my DNA test . My results have come back and no matches to my jones tree so up loaded to gedmatch and a load of jones popped up Hannah finch Mary jones ,Jane jones so now in stuck all I knew of my dad was his name Thomas Howard jones and the date he died .
Hi,
As you can see from this thread I also got into a mess with the Jones!!! I had a Joseph Jones ( grandad in L'pool) who I thought had ancestors being Robert Jones & his wife Hannah Finch in the 1800s. However I think I had gone up the wrong tree as I am now looking at another group of Jones who were boilermakers.
Good luck as there are so many Jones's!!!!