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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Kent => Topic started by: jonwicken on Thursday 08 December 16 01:17 GMT (UK)
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My great, great grandfather John Charles Turtle was born in Lambeth, Surrey, as the illegitimate son of Emily Percival Turtle. The father is nameless on his birth certificate.
Two years later in 1852, Emily married James Wicken in Bethnal Green, Middlesex, and John Charles Turtle became known as John Charles Wicken.
Given the two year gap between his birth and their marriage, I assume John was not James' biological son, but John must have thought of him as such as he gave his first born son the name James.
I am therefore interested in the Wicken family as it is my name and so despite the non genetic connection I would like to fill in some gaps I have with the family.
I am therefore hoping someone may be able to please help me with the the three areas below:
1. Thomas Wicken (c1775/6-1848) and his wife Mary (c1769/70-1844) had several children baptised in Westerham between 1798 and 1813. However I have been unable to find their origins or marriage.
A Thomas Wicken married a Mary Reed in Tenterten in 1800 but they had their own set of children baptised there so are presumably not this couple.
The 1841 census states they were not born in Kent so I don't have anything else to go on.
2. I would like to know which of their children survived to adulthood and so for this I need to see the Westerham burials which are not online.
I would also like to see the same for their grandchildren. I therefore wondered if anyone has access to the burials for Westerham to do a Wicken check please.
3. John Wicken married Charlotte Sales at Westerham in 1821 and had children from 1821 to 1843. However on the 1851 census there is a Phoebe Wicken aged 2 and a Mary Ann Wicken aged 1 who are listed as his daughters.
Now they can't be Charlotte's children as she would be too old and on the 1861 census Phoebe is listed as John' granddaughter. Also, John and Charlotte also already had a daughter named Phoebe born in 1824 who married in 1845.
I cannot find births or baptisms for either girl (Phoebe or Mary Ann) in the late 1840s/early 1850s and Mary Ann I can only find in the 1851 census and no death for her either.
Phoebe married George Braybrook in Stepney, Middlesex, in 1878 and on this her father is listed as John Wicken. I am therefore very confused!
I suspect Phoebe and Mary Ann were perhaps illegitimate grandchildren but i have no ideas whose or how to prove or disprove it.
If anyone has a moment to have a look at any of these queries I would be most grateful.
Thank you,
Jon
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There is a Mary Ann and a Phoebe on the 1851 census with a John and Charlotte so are there two families wirh daughters Mary Ann and Phoebe born same time or were thegirls staying with their grandparents but got listed with their Mum and Dad's entry as well.
HO107 Piece 1613 Folio 527 Page 17
Westerham, Kent
John Wicken 41 Blacksmith
Charlotte Wicken 41
William Wicken 13
Emma Wicken 11
Charlotte Wicken 8
Phebe Wicken 2 Westerham, Kent
Mary Ann Wicken 1
All born Westerham, Kent
ancestry is only bringing this one up for a Mary Ann Wicken born c1851
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I wonder if this one could be Mary Ann if the enumerator recorded 1 year instead of 1month. Sevenoaks includes Westerham
FreeBMD
Mary Ann Wickens
Registered June 1/4 1851
Registration district = Sevenoaks Kent
Vol 5 Page 464
On the new GRO index mother's maiden name Tutheridge. but I can't see a Tutheridge marriage (or a similar name) to a John Wicken/s
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Hi there is also a Female Wicken March qtr 1849 Sevenoaks v5 page 500 the GRO index shows no mothers maiden name.
Keyboard86
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I think you can forget the 1851 birth reg for Mary Ann because this is possibly the birth reg for Charlotte Wicken born c1843 in the 1851 census
Charlotte Wicken mmn Sales
Dec 1/4 1843 Sevenoaks Union Vol 5 page 411
There are also birth registrations for Emma and William (on the 1851 census) mmn Sales but none for Mary Ann and Phoebe with or without mmn Sales
Hi keyboard. thanks for that 1849 birth reg.
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Thanks very much for the replies. It is indeed John and Charlotte Wicken, not James. This was a typing error I have now corrected so thanks for pointing it out.
I had missed the 1849 finale Wicken birth so I would assume that is indeed Phoebe. Looks like I will need to order that certificate to see who the mother was.
I will also check out the Mary Ann birth you found.
Thanks again, everyone.
Jon
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Hello
Can you give us the piece, book, folio and page references for the 1841 census so I can take a look at Thomas and Mary's entry.
The Thomas and Mary having children in Tenterten are still there in the 1861 census so definitely not your Thomas and Mary as you say yours died 1848 and 1844.
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Hi thanks very much. It is:
Piece: 485
Book: 13
Folio: 20
Page Number: 3
And the image is attached.
Their death ages on the new GRO index shows they Thomas was born c1775/6 and died 1848 and Mary who died in 1844 was born c1769/70.
Based on these ages I assume he must have been 21 when they married and as they had a daughter baptised in 1798, their marriage presumably took place c1797.
There were definitely two Thomas and Mary Wickens, which make things confusing indeed. The other couple alive in later census in Tenterten.
There is a Fanny Wicken who married John Lockyer at Westerham in 1824. I wondered if she was an earlier daughter born elsewhere than Westerham before 1798.
However it appears from the census and baptism entries that she is probably one of the Fanny Wickens born in Rotherfield, Sussex, in 1805 or 1807.
If you are able to crack anything here, I would be most appreciative.
Thanks,
Jon
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Forgot the image.... Sorry!
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Hi is Thomas William Wicken 29th April 1838 Westerham Father Henry Mother Eleanor/Ellen one of yours? In 1851 census Thomas is with Ellen in French Street, the same as Thomas/Mary 1841?
Keyboard86
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Yes they are indeed part of this family.
Henry was the son of Thomas and Mary Wicken who was baptised in 1806. He died in 1848.
Thomas and Mary's children were:
Charlotte Wicken/Still 1798–1872
John Wicken 1800–1875
Henry Wicken 1806–1848
Sarah Wicken 1808–
Samuel Wicken 1809–
Phoebe Wicken 1811–
Harriet Wicken 1813–
I know about what happened to the first three but not about the youngest four.
I also suspect that there were further pregnancies given the gaps in births so the burials at Westerham would be really helpful trying to piece it all together.
Thanks again for your replies,
Jon
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Hi again, just clearing up loose ends, am I correct Henry Wicken married Eleanor Cuthmore 5th November 1837 Leigh, Kent was he a Widower, as a George Wicken b c 1832 Brasted (Edit this s/b 1842 Brasted)? and if he died 1848 who is the 7 month old Amy? Wicken b Westerham in 1851 Census HO107/1613/474/17
Keyboard86
EDIT 1841 census :-
Henry WICKING 30
Ellen 20
Thomas 3
James 1
Residing at Hogtrough Hill, Brasted
Census ref HO107/480/ 5/11/ 14
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Hi again, still clearing up, when Thomas William Wicken married Ellen Friend 1862, the witnesses were George Wicken and Ellen Duggan, they married 9th January 1864 St George, Camberwell Father of George, Henry Wicken occ Labourer
Keyboard86
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OK found Amy in 1861 census, Ellen Wicken married John Meeks December qtr 1851, in 1861 census John MERKS 42, Ellen 44 b Westerham and Amy 10 b Westerham plus siblings from c 1853
Census ref RG09/489/80/23
Keyboard86
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Thanks, all.
So it seems Henry and Eleanor/Ellen Wicken had the following children:
Thomas William Wicken 1838–1906
James Wicken 1840–1848
George Wicken 1842–
Mary Wicken 1844–1848
Eliza Wicken 1846–1848
James, Mary and Eliza's deaths are all recorded in the June 1848 quarter, while their father Henry's death is recorded in the September 1848. All sounds like a rather tragic period for the family. I wonder if it was disease or an accident that killed them?
After Henry's death Ellen had another daughter named Amy Amelia Wicken who was baptised on 8 September 1850 at Westerham just as the daughter of Ellen.
It would therefore seem she was illegitimate and not Henry's daughter and so raises the possibility that the March 1849 birth for female Wicken might be her birth, no that of Phoebe.
Thanks so much for looking,
Jon
I still have no idea what happened to Henry's younger siblings and would love to know what happened to them.
Thanks again,
Jon
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There was a second outbreak of cholera in London in 1848-49 and 14,137 people died.
The Metropolitan Sewers Commission was created in 1848 and finally it was required that house drains and cesspools be connected to the sewers.
http://www.choleraandthethames.co.uk/
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Hi again, an Anthony Peacock married a Phoebe Wickens 9th April 1831 Sundridge, 1851 Phoebe b Westerham
Keyboard86
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On the Surrey Marriage Index there is the following marriage, at Wandsworth, Surrey
1796 Nov 27 Thomas Wickens to Mary Westen
A possibility ???
Tony
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Hi again, the Amy scenario, suggest if 7 months old in 1851 Census she cannot be the March qtr 1849 birth registration?
Keyboard86
PS that 1796 marriage does appeal, as family appear to have connections to Lambeth/Camberwell?
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Thanks for much for the information on Phoebe and pointing out about Amy too. And for the marriage suggestion.
Also I have found this Kent parishes index on familysearch, which I hadn't seen before that includes burials for Westerham:
https://familysearch.org/search/collection/1952887
I have also had a look at the Westerham baptisms transcribed on findmypast which include some not on familysearch, including John's 1799 baptsm.
From these I now know the following about the two Wicken couples which most directly link with my adoptive line:
The children of Thomas Wicken and Mary:
Charlotte Wicken/Still 1798–1872
John Wicken 1799-1875 (baptised as Wickens)
Rebecca Wicken 1801-? (baptised as Wickins)
James Wicken 1804-?
Henry Wicken 1806–1848
Sarah Wicken 1808–?
Samuel Wicken 1809–?
Phoebe Wicken/Peacock 1811–1894
Harriet Wicken 1813– 1813
Rebecca and James are newly discovered siblings and along with Sarah and Samuel, I know nothing of what became of them.
And not sure of Thomas and Mary's marriage in c1795-1797 or the couples origins, other than they were NOT born in Kent (according to the 1841 census).
The children of Thomas' son John Wicken and Charlotte Sales:
Sarah Wicken 1821–1821
Jane Wicken/Nixey 1822–1878
Phoebe Wicken/Brown 1824–aft 1845
John Wicken 1826–1848
James Wicken 1828–1865
Mary Ann Wicken 1830–1832
Sarah Wicken 1830–aft 1841
Ann Wicken 1833–aft 1841
Hannah Wicken/Record 1834–1921
William Wicken 1838–1867
Emma Wicken/Beavis 1840–aft 1891
Charlotte Wicken/Lingwood 1843–aft 1881
So it is Phoebe, Sarah and Ann who are the mysteries in this batch of Wicken children.
The family actually lived at Crockham Hill in Westerham and I have found tonight a newspaper article staing that in 1838 John Wicken, a blacksmith and farrier, was in a debtors prison.
Again, thanks for all the information,help and guidance in my Wicken quest.
Jon
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I have lost the plot with this thread over the last few days but there is this Charlotte Lingwood in 1901. Given that your Charlotte's occupation was 'plain cook' in 1881 this could be her?
1901 RG13 piece 616 folio 132 page 5
Lodge Hill Road, The Bourne, Surrey
Charlotte Lingwood Widow 56 Cook Housemaid, born Kent.
She is listed with a lot of other servants possibly working for the Holford family.
Death
Charlotte Lingwood
Registered June 1/4 1923
Age at Death 79 Birth about 1844
Registration district - Orsett Essex
Vol4a page 477
So where is this Charlotte in 1891 and 1911
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1891 RG12/45/23/39
No street address Fulham, St Mary's
William Lingwood 41 groom/horsekeeper Born NK
Charlotte Lingwood 47 Born NK
Dorothey A Douce 2 months Born NK .
No births for a Dorothy Douce but could be Dorothy Agnes Dance mmn Churchill March 1/4 1891 Vol 1a page 608 Marylebone.
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Rebecca Wicken born 1801, may of married Henry Everest in June 1826 Croydon,Surrey. From her death in BDM Vic Australia parents are recorded as Mary and Thomas.
I'm just starting to look into her. All I have so far is her birth of 1801 in Kent and marriage 1826 and death in Victoria Australia.