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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => London and Middlesex => Topic started by: thomasina on Wednesday 07 December 16 06:26 GMT (UK)
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Ji
i have Eileen Manns death certificate from 1973 and it states name as Eileen Mann o/w Naylor does this mean out of wedlock? if so it has an address of 143c Breckmock Road London N19 says she was found dead in a van? my help needed was who was Naylor and who was living at that address/ Eileen was my uncles first wife and I would love to know what became of her as all family now dead no one to ask.
thanks Jean :)
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It would probably mean that Naylor was another surname that she was using at the time of her death.
What was the name of your uncle to whom she was married
I presume that this is her from your earlier post
Albert George Mann and Eileen Venner
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Is this her death :-\
Eileen Mann
Born 27 Dec 1922
Dec qtr 1973 - St Pancras, London
There is an article in The Times that could relate to her
The Times (London, England), Tuesday, Jun 26, 1956; pg. 6
Murder Charge - Eileen Mann age 33 a cleaner of Hampstead Road, St Pancras - she was on trial for the murder of Herbert White with whom she had been living
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Blimey the plot thickens will see if I can find the newspaper thank you
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There is an article in The Times that could relate to her
The Times (London, England), Tuesday, Jun 26, 1956; pg. 6
Murder Charge - Eileen Mann age 33 a cleaner of Hampstead Road, St Pancras - she was on trial for the murder of Herbert White with whom she had been living
National Archives catalogue mentions file on murder case-
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C10874424
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o/w stands for otherwise (known as)
Sometimes ladies use their married names ,but also revert back to maiden ones.
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It would probably mean that Naylor was another surname that she was using at the time of her death.
There is a marriage between an Eileen Venner and Harry Naylor in Pontefract district in Q4 1939
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Births of two children with Naylor surname and mother's maiden name Venner
Male Q3 1940 Pontefract District
Female Q2 1942 Leeds District
Maybe still alive so not named them, easily found on freebmd
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Thank you so much for all your help, im going to make a time line see where all this fits in
Jean
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Hi
Still researching Eileen Mann/Venner/Naylor found lot about her she was found guilty in 1956 and spent 5 years in prison this I no I have been onto the Old Bailey but they wont release any more on this case till 2041 not much use there, what I would really like to find now is who was Herbert White? who she lived with. He was born about 1908/09 died June 1956 the case files that Old Bailey have let me have state he had a daughter? he was a window cleaner and lived in Hampstead Heath road that is all I have to go on any one fancy a look for me please? I have the 3 newspaper reports already.
Jean
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Hi there,
Do you have a number at Hampstead Road (not Hampstead Heath Road!) that he lived at.
It is near Euston Station St Pancras.
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Hi
Yes your correct with road name and I have no number this address is taken from the newspaper reports, yes also correct was near St Pancras.
Jean
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Do you have the death certificate of Herbert
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The only one I can see in Hampstead Road in 1955/56 is Herbert B White at number 189. With two Ferrimans, no other Whites, and no Eileen.
Not sure what happened with that address later!
Could he be the Herbert B White who married Gladys E Turley in Pancras in June qtr 1939?
Probably that is Gladys Emma Turley born in Pancras in 1916.
Looking for them in the free index to the 1939 Register, I think they are living in Pancras
Herbert B White, born 1909
Gladys E White, born 1916
The free index on findmypast gives address in Hampstead Road.
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Thanks for your help I will have to get Herbert's death certificate I have been In touch with the old Bailey they may release some bits from the murder trial.
Will look into the info you have provided
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Update
Gladys E White listed with Herbert B White in 1954 at 189 Hampstead Rd.
Can't get hold of 1955
No Gladys in 1956, just Herbert B
Haven't found them on the 1939 electoral register.
Gladys Emma Turley at 116 Drummond Road in 1938 (South West St Pancras, Polling District T)
There's a Herbert Benson White at 12 Edward Street in 1937, renamed Varndell Street in 1938 (he is still there). That's in South West St Pancras, Polling District R, and is off Hampstead Road (see Google Maps!)
May not be the right chap of course. Good luck!
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Just in case :)
Gladys Emma White
Birth 05/11/1916
Death 06/2003
Islington London
TURLEY, GLADYS EMMA mmn JONES
1916 Dec Quarter in ST. PANCRAS Volume 01B Page 36
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Good find, Rosie.
If there's no sighting later of this Herbert B (possibly Benson) White, that would be a good sign. Don't know who he was!
John
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Herbert was murdered 13th June 1956 by my aunt Eileen Mann he was a window cleaner and she was living with him she went to trial at the old Bailey and got 5 years holloway I would think and was found dead in 1973 in a van in St pancreas I have her death certificate before she was with Herbert she was married to my dad's brother Albert Mann in 1947 and before him Harry naylor who died also in 1947 she had 2 children with Harry 1940 and 1942 no idea wgat happened to them? Old Bailey records state Herbert had a daughter and Eileen a son so cannot release in case they are still alive and also suicide references so lots to research
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Looking at the article in The Times, 15 June 1956. It's there! The exact address.
Eileen Mann, aged 33, a cleaner, of 189, Hampstead Road, N.W., was charged at Clerkenwell Court yesterday with the murder of Herbert White, 47, at 189, Hampstead Road on June 13. The Magistrate (Mr. Edward Robey) remanded the accused woman in custody for a week and granted her legal aid.
Herbert B White on the electorals must be the man.
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That is good John :)
Maybe the way forward now is the marriage for Herbert & Gladys as that should give his fathers name. It will have more information than the death certificate
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The only one I can see in Hampstead Road in 1955/56 is Herbert B White at number 189. With two Ferrimans, no other Whites, and no Eileen.
Pretty much the same on the electoral rolls of 1946 - 52 too.
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Hi
Herbert White was my Grandfather - I had made a FOI request for the court papers but was informed it had been closed.
He did have one daughter - my mother who wanted nothing to do with him for reasons I wont go into here.
I was told that he was a Fireman but havent been able to find out if this is true.
I do hope you are having more success in your research
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There doesn't seem to be a Herbert Benson White birth reg in right quarter to fit his age. Perhaps he started life as Herbert Benson?
Added
Or he was plain Herbert White but added a middle name later for some reason. I have several ancestors who've acquired middle names in later years, often for no obvious reason.
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Hi
Herbert White was my Grandfather - I had made a FOI request for the court papers but was informed it had been closed.
He did have one daughter - my mother who wanted nothing to do with him for reasons I wont go into here.
I was told that he was a Fireman but havent been able to find out if this is true.
I do hope you are having more success in your research
Hi thank you for posting on here, would love to text more but would rather do private as would not like to put sensitive thibgs
I have also tried for foi but its closed till 2141 if you would like to get in touch please do.
Jean
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Hi thank you for your message and yes would love to chat. Just trying to find out how to reply to your pm / im not the most techy savvy
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Hi thank you for your message and yes would love to chat. Just trying to find out how to reply to your pm / im not the most techy savvy
Hi I will send you another pm
Jean
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Hi thank you for your message and yes would love to chat. Just trying to find out how to reply to your pm / im not the most techy savvy
Now that RMpim has posted here twice he should be able to use the personal messaging system..