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Old Photographs, Recognition, Handwriting Deciphering => Handwriting Deciphering & Recognition => Topic started by: Edward Scott on Monday 05 December 16 14:26 GMT (UK)
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I would appreciate some help with 2 surnames from a Lincolnshire will from 1700.
The first is the surname of "my Grandchild Mary" in the middle of the second line of the attachment. It looks like Thrakie but I am not convinced this is correct.
The second is the surname of 'my Grandchild Timothy' on the first line of the second attachment. I think it is Hort but I cannot find anything that could match this as a family name so now wondering if this is wrong.
Your help, as usual, is gratefully appreciated
thanks
Edward
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Hi, could Timothy's surname be "Holt"?
Frank.
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Thanks for your reply.
The third letter appears to match the 'r' in Apprenticeship and improved. The 'l' in Grandchild looks quite different.
rgds
Edward
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Could it be Mary Prentice?
Timothy looks like Hort to me too
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The first surname is Prentice. There is a descender from the line above which is confusing matters!
I'm pretty sure the second one is Hort.
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Thanks, I'll see if Mary Prentice appears in the right place(s) at the right time. Although if she is like some of the others I have lost in the late 1600's, then I may start to believe in little green men & spaceships.
Edward
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I can see two problems with identifying the name as Prentice.
First, the n is inverted. That's common enough in the C17th, but I have scanned both extracts and can't find another inverted n.
Secondly, the putative c is of a style which again is quite common, but no other example of that style can be found in either extract.
Beyond that, we have a good number of the ce letter combination for comparison, in pence and apiece. None of them look like the ce in Prentice.
I would like to see another capital P from this writer, if you can find one in the document.
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Thanks for your reply. I think I understand it :)
Capital in 'Partney' near the middle of the second line
rgds
Edward
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Thanks Edward,
It's quite different. So, I recommend caution with Prentice.
I'm not sure what the name is. It's unhelpful that he doesn't cross his t. Will keep working on it.
One other thing in your last extract - another mention of Timothy. In this one, it looks more like ffort = Fort. So I recommend you check for both.
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There is an ff in the first extract: ffor the better enabling...
Comparing that to the name in the third extract I'd say it's most likely to be Hort. The second extract is Hort.
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Thanks, I will proceed with caution as I cannot locate a Mary Prentice in Lincolnshire at the right time.
Edward
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Can anyone decipher the word above 'five' which follows Mary's surname? Some of the letters are very similar.
Edwrad
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...aforesd twelve pence apiece & to ye serv(an)ts...
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The ie in apiece looks very similar to last 2 letters of the surname.
Thoughts?
Edward
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I did (and do) consider it a possibility.
The problem is, what is the letter or letters before the i?
Immediately before has to be a consonant, which makes that an h, since it can't be a ti.
Generally, he doesn't start the second part of his h that low.
I think it's most likely that the next letter forward (the one which would be an n in Prentice) is an a. An ah letter combination is unusual (but possible) in English.
I think the two letters before that are re. So we'd have ?reahie.
So while it's a possibility, I can't make a name from the parts.
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I think the 3rd or 4th letter from the end may be a 't', have a look at these 2 extracts
Edward
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I think the 3rd or 4th letter from the end may be a 't'
I also think it's a t. But that poses the question, what is that after it?
If the last two letters are ie, we would have tiie.
ADDED: Have you been all the way through the will? Might we be lucky enough that Mary is mentioned again?
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Sadly Mary is about the only person mentioned once :'(
It doesn't even give me a clue on her parents and as the grandmother married at least twice (and had children) during the interregnum, it is almost impossible to work out any ideas for them.
Still letter match searching.
Edward
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I have to call it a night, Edward. It's awfully late here.
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No problem, I decided to have a time out with a G&T
Where is here?
Edward
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Australia.
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I believe Mary's surname is still unresolved.
I'm sure the 2nd and 3rd letters are ...re.... But as HD86 has said, that initial capital may not be P, and the last few letters are also in doubt.
Would there be any mileage in reading it as beginning Tre... (comparing with the T in Timothy)? Just a thought.
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T being the first letter was my original thought, although the T in Thomas is different again.
Looking again, the 'er' in funeral (just underneath) looks similar to the 2nd & 3rd or 3rd & 4th letters.
The last 2 letters still look like 'ie' to me
thanks
Edward
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The last 2 letters still look like 'ie' to me
I would tend to agree, but, as HD86 has said, if the last 2 letters are ...ie, what precedes them? I don't think it's h, because the top isn't rounded enough.
It's possible that the last 4 letters are ...ti(?)e, with something between the i and the e, and that the dot for the i has been misplaced to the right. That said, I still can't offer a feasible name.
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The first surname is Prentice.
That said, I still can't offer a feasible name.
I retract everything :D
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I retract everything :D
I'd hate to rule it out, Jen. Like HD, I'm just doubtful about the P and wonder if it might be T :-\
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Thanks for your replies & apologies for the delay in responding. We were away over the weekend for OH's birthday.
I'll see what similar matches I can find
Edward
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Having looked at this yet again, I think there 8 letters in the surname and my current feeling is as follows:-
Tr**t*ie or Tr**ti*e
The 4th letter may be an 'a' although everyone other one I can see in the document is fully formed.
I have attached a larger chunk of the document and still hope that someone can work this one out.
thanks again to all
Edward
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Thanks for posting a larger extract.
Having looked at this yet again, I think there 8 letters in the surname and my current feeling is as follows:-
Tr**t*ie or Tr**ti*e
The 4th letter may be an 'a' although everyone other one I can see in the document is fully formed.
I tend to agree with you. But there are at least 3 different styles of capital T here, and the only capital P that's showing is rather different from the initial letter of Mary's surname. So it's hard to compare letter-forms and come up with anything conclusive.
That said, the fuller extract you've posted does seem to show that the bequest to Mary has been squeezed in between the lines. That, and the need to 'avoid' a descender from the line above, might account for some distortion. But it's difficult to come up with a likely name beginning Tre... that fits the shape.
Sorry I can't offer anything further.
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The phrase four lines up from the bottom of the new extract is worth close examination:
...p(re)tence of my receiving any rent...
Two examples of an old style c and two examples of an inverted n (following an e).
With these exemplars (and a sense of embarrassment at being the cause of all the trouble) I'm not unhappy to say that Mary's name, following the initial, could well be ?rentice.
Is Trentice a known name?
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Thanks again.
HD, I understand your comments and no apology is required, your assistance has been appreciated. Trentice is not a name known to me and nor does it appear on the usual websites as a Lincolnshire possibility.
BB, as you pointed out there are 3 different styles of 'T' so (with apologies) I am now starting to believe this may be a 'P' which takes us back to Prentice.
I can see that there are 2 MP's born in the right area that could fit. Now I just have to find a marriage for her parents that makes some sense
thanks again & regards
Edward
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BB, as you pointed out there are 3 different styles of 'T' so (with apologies) I am now starting to believe this may be a 'P' which takes us back to Prentice.
On balance, this is probably the most sensible solution.
As we all seem to be offering apologies, I'd like to add mine, especially to JenB :)
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Prawn Cocktail got there first :D :D (reply #3)
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Indeed! To both of you, then :)
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Taking the risk that this may generate another raft of apologies ;), are we totally sure that Timothy is a 'Hort'?
I cannot see any other option but am currently unable to find anyone (him, parents, siblings, etc) that could even possibly be a link.
Edward
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Well sorted you lot
. . . I have been watching with interest but unable to suggest anything intelligent! :)
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Taking the risk that this may generate another raft of apologies ;), are we totally sure that Timothy is a 'Hort'?
I cannot see any other option but am currently unable to find anyone (him, parents, siblings, etc) that could even possibly be a link.
Edward
Could it be 'Host'? Then thought Horl then phonetically Hall. Not sure where in Lincolnshire this is taking place but there are a number of Timothy Halls in various parts of Lincolnshire in 1600s/1700s.
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And a name like Mary Thrall, Thrale, Threll? or even Thralie?
Thrulbie, Thrulie
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Maybe a spanner but...
Looking at Timothy there is a son on the 1st image (3rd line) named John Bassal & the 2nd last letter in Ho*t looks like the 's' in Bassal i.e. possibly Host?
Annie
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Annie, I'm afraid the son's surname is Barrat.
The final letter is not looped, so is a t (uncrossed as per many words in the extracts) and not an l.
Were the third and fourth letters ss, we would see a long-s as the first of the pair. He uses long-s in mid-word positions, as was the custom of the time. Quite a few words contain long-s in beginning or mid-word positions.
You can see the formation of the letter r in many words - for example (from the long extract on the previous page):
Partney, several, pleasure, Executor and security
Timothy's surname is either Hort or ffort. The first example is clearly an H. The others are more ambiguous. I hope Edward has checked for ffort anyway.
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For illustration of the points made in my previous: ...releases & assurances...
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This thread has me quivering!!!
I love it even though I don't have the faintest idea what the surname is?!
bitzar.
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I don't often get involved with these queries but straight away I thought Timothy Host. The letter that you are reading as r looks far more like an s to me.
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Timothy's surname is either Hort or ffort. The first example is clearly an H. The others are more ambiguous. I hope Edward has checked for ffort anyway.
I agree 100% with the above.
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I don't often get involved with these queries but straight away I thought Timothy Host. The letter that you are reading as r looks far more like an s to me.
If you check the extracts provided you'll see that the writer formed the letter 's' in quite a different way :)
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Thanks everyone, the 'experts' are clearly sticking with Hort and whilst I wish it was a different name, I still agree.
The deciphering threads are really good at helping me (& no doubt others) read this type of writing and the explanations are really useful. What I do find slightly frustrating is when the writer changes style in parts of he document and the old brain has to retune.
Now all I have to do is to find them :)
These extracts are from the will of Susannah Eastland who died in West Keal in 1700/01, born in Spilsby, first husband Richard Barrett (died Winceby abt 1667), second husband Joseph Eastland (died bef 1700 location unknown). All of these locations are quite close together so it is likely that Timothy and Mary are from around this area as well.
Thanks again
Edward
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Susanna Barrat married Joseph Eastland on 22/11/1669 in Winceby Lincoln according to FS.
A child called Richard Barret is born on 21/1/1663 in Winceby with parents Richard Barret and Susanna, also from FS.
I am puzzled by the reference in the extract to 'my son Thomas Squire' and 'my daughter Elizabeth Squire'. I am aware of ranking but wonder if this is in fact a surname rather than a rank and it refers to this Elizabeth Squire having (I think) Timothy (Host) as her eldest son.
Would Joseph have been born in 1640? There is a Joseph born at Stow in Lindsey on 25/10/1640 - he would have been 29 at marriage. Parents of this Joseph are Edward and Susanna.
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Elizabeth Barrett ( do of Susanna & Richard) married Thomas Squire as her second husband, so for 'son' read as 'son in law'.
Her first marriage was to a Mr Hort (or ffort) and Timothy was their son.
The JE of Stow in Lindsey is a candidate although I have no proof at this time, being 29 would point to this perhaps being his second marriage as well.
rgds
Edward