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General => Armed Forces => World War Two => Topic started by: J from Canada on Sunday 04 December 16 13:20 GMT (UK)
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I'd be grateful for help with the following. This ancestor was a driver.
Posted to: 8th Armd Division Arm Sub Pk (335 Company) 53 (Light) A.A. Regt.
In Feb, 42, he was posted to: 53 LAA Rgt EM for ME (Middle East). Underneath 53 LAA Rgt, it states; G.H. Q2 Ech (Echelon) MEF (Middle East Forces)
In Jan 43 when he was in Egypt he was posted to: GHR 2nd Ech BR S.O.S. MEF to an unknown destination. The next line down states: CHQ 2nd Ech BNAF (British North African Forces) J.O.S. B.N.A.F. on 28/08/43
Many thanks!
J from Canada
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The quickest one to help you with is your "J.O.S.". That actually will be "TOS" meaning 'Taken on strength". This means that on 28 August 1943 your ancestor joined the CHQ 2nd Ech BNAF permanently.
SOS is another acronym which means the exact opposite: you are "Struck Off Strength" of a regiment/unit, meaning that you are no longer considered part of it. You have this in "SOS MEF", which means your ancestor was Struck Off Strength of Middle Eastern Forces.
He was posted to the 8th Armoured Division Ammunition Sub Park (335 Company) 53 Light Anti Aircraft Regiment
GHQ 2 Echelon MEF: General Headquarters 2 Echelon Middle Eastern Forces
I'm sure others can help out with a more detailed set of answers.
RRTB
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Many thanks indeed RRTB! That gets me part of the way along. Your help is greatly appreciated.
Best regards,
J from Canada
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Would you be able to take a picture of sections of the service record and post them here for us to look at? Sometimes the guys can spot things which give a lot of information. The other thing is that some of these records can be a little hard to decipher, and may appear to be something they're not. Your "JOS" would be a small example of this.
RRTB
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I'd support RRTB's suggestion wholeheartedly (the JOS is a good example).
The meaning of an entry can differ depending on what column heading it appears under. The TOS and SOS will have a date attached to them somewhere which enables a sequence to be made out. In addition, the GHQ 2nd Echelon MEF can be the place the order originated from rather than a posting to a place but without the context of the original record, you will get translations of initials which on their own don't tell the story. As to what he did which you asked elsewhere, perhaps you'd give us his rank and regiment or corps. Drivers in a LAA Regiment could be artillerymen, Royal Army Service Corps, REME or even Ordnance Corps if working in an ammo park.
As others have said, lots of willing help here bu more original info needed.
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Thank you RRTB and MaxD. I'm having some technical difficulties. I tried scanning in a section into my computer (successfully) and then uploading it here (unsuccessfully)- even though the file is smaller than the max allowed. Any suggestions about this?
J from Canada
PS he was a private and I believe was in the 8th Army.
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This link might be of interest. It would certainly give us an idea as to why he was posted to BNAF in Jan 1943. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/8th_Armoured_Division_(United_Kingdom)
RRTB
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sorry for the delay. am trying a different method. if it works, the first half is below.
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second half. Hah! Think this worked.
Any kind assistance greatly appreciated!
J from Canada
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And I see from the first page of his Service and Casualty Form that he was in the RASC.
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Note that the time between Embarkation for overseas and Disembarkation in Middle East was approximately two months.
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Yes. an unpleasant journey by ship, I imagine.
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Yes. an unpleasant journey by ship, I imagine.
They would have probably gone the long way round to avoid U boats, I think.
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2 months after arriving in the Middle East he was admitted to hospital and then placed on the X (ii) list. Here is some info about the X (ii) list:
Personnel remain in X (ii) list until they are classified as fit for posting (when they are transferred to the X (iv) list of their corps and marched out to the appropriate training depot), or until discharged by a medical unit direct to their original units. Personnel who, after evacuation beyond RAP (=Regimental Aid Post) are medically graded 1A or lower remain on X (ii) list until they are either (a) placed on NZ Roll, or (b) posted to a Base establishment, or (c) transferred to X (i) list at the Base
Our chap was discharged to the Con Depot and taken on strength here in October. He's posted to the Mob(ilisation?) Centre and despatched to 563 GTC where he is taken on strength from the X (iv) list. This list is further explained here:
THE X (iv) LIST comprises all unposted reinforcements and incoming reinforcement drafts. Personnel discharged from NZ Reception Depot (x(ii)) to Training Depots, fit for duty, are transferred to the X (iv) list of their corps, until posted to a unit, when they are struck off X (iv) and taken on unit strength
In Jan 1943 he is admitted again to hospital and to the X (ii) list. A week later he is taken on strength of 563 GTC again.
He leaves Egypt but I don't know what H/R/M with the dates 12/16-6-43 means.
Under the "TOS BNAF" piece, the extremely faint entry reads Reclassified Cl(ass) 1A which is a medical classification. He is also granted arrears (payments?) due to him for a particular scale and classification.
I don't know what PSTT stands for but I think the "P" part may be 'Preliminary' as I believe this section may possibly be referring to new training that he was getting for driving. The second line mentions "add" with effect from 1/3/45.
RRTB
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Expanding on RRTB's explanations, his service in outline on those two sheets goes:
He is with the RASC Platoon attached to 53 LAA Regiment RA in 1942 and has a month’s leave before leaving with them for North Africa in May 1942.
After the privilege of serving with the Royal Regiment of Artillery, he goes to hospital for almost two months and then is posted to 2 Company B Depot(Base Depot RASC) in October 1942 (
Moves to 563 General Transport Company RASC (Egypt judging by next entries) Dec 1942
Another hospital spell Jan 1943
Leave in Egypt (the H/M/R are administrative hieroglyphics relating to the leave)
Moves from 563 GTC and to 668 Petrol Transport Company in North Africa Command 28 August 1943
Stays with them until Aug 1945 when he is back home and has LIAP (Leave in addition to Python - a bizarre term relating to the amount of leave he is entitled to). (Another hospital spell in 19 Casualty Clearing Station in Jun 1945).
Joins HQ RASC 13 Corps Troops in Sep 1945.
Need to see a bit more of his record to clarify this element of service. 13 Corps were in Italy late on and he qualified for the Italy Star. There should also be a sheet with a box with headings Service Home and Abroad which gives us a outline of his full service by theatres which can be cross related to the service sheets and which may help.
Most of the entries between Aug 43 and Sep 45 are administrative relating to his trade classification, pay and X List status which RRTB has explained and I would suggest can be safely ignored. The 8th Army Clasp was to be worn on his Africa Star.
There are war diaries for all the units mentioned at the National Archives, if you want links I'll post them but none are digitised so you either have to go there (obviously not easy from the land of the round doorknobs) or have them copied - a very expensive process. They will anyway only tell you where the units were and when, they do not as a rule mention individual private soldiers, that was not their function.
I would also ask whether there is anything before the first entry on the first half image. This starts in 1942 and he is already with 53 LAA Regt and must have come from somewhere before hand. Is there anything after the second half image? I'd expect to see entries relating to discharge to the reserve.
T
Over to you.
maxD
Oh, I should also note that there is no mention of anybody's father or any servicewomen in the records.
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Really need to see the service home and abroad record. The last three entries on "second half" seem to be recording a home leave period in August 1945 (the LIAP entry) then joining HQ RASC 13 Corps Troops in September 1945. 13 Corps were certainly in Italy and at this stage the German forces in Italy had surrendered, references are not clear as to when 13 Corps returned home.
maxD
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Thank you so very much RRTB and MaxD. This is providing me with a lot more detail than I expected and I am most grateful. Do any of the abbreviations or arcane military jargon indicate if the hospital stays were related to injury or illness? Are you able to tell if Frank the driver was working behind or at the front lines? Was it usual for a soldier to switch units so regularly?
As you both have suggested, I have found the Service at home and abroad section and attach it here. As well, I have found the first page of the Service and Casualty Form. The forms don't seem to clearly indicate exactly how long he spent in Egypt or how long he spent in Italy.
J from Canada
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First page of record.
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Yes. an unpleasant journey by ship, I imagine.
By reference to those dates of Embarkation and the date of disembarkation in Middle East you may be able to discover which troop convoy he sailed in and just possibly the particular ship. The odds are that he sailed from either Glasgow or Liverpool, and possible arrival at Port Tewfik.
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Good morning ScouseBoy,
So I know that he sailed on April 5 1942 and arrived on June 25 in the Middle East. From the form, it would seem that he was with RASC Plat. 53 LAA RA. Am I reading this correctly? Where would I go to identify which convoy and/or ship he sailed on?
J from Canada
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Www.convoyweb.org look for port departed from on that date (probably Geenock or
Liverpool)
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Www.convoyweb.org look for port departed from on that date (probably Geenock or
Liverpool)
convoyweb.org does not exist
convoyweb.com appears to be a heavy machinery dealership
It might be easier if you look up the site you are referring to and check the convoys departing on the appropriate date.
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www.convoyweb.org.uk
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No departures on the 5th of April 1942 from Liverpool or Greenock.
It might be useful Scouseboy, if you could check. I am not familiar with that site so may have missed something.
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Front lines In the sense of facing the enemy, rifle and bayonet in hand, grenade between his teeth dodging incoming bullets constantly - no. His contribution however was, while not so immediately dangerous, was just as valuable and not without peril. His first unit in the theatre of war was in the RASC Platoon attached to 53 LAA Regiment Royal Artillery where his task would be the ferrying of ammunition from the ammunition park (dump) to the gun sites where the regiment was engaged defending airfields, ports, vulnerable points, headquarters and the like from air attack. With the General Transport Company, much more varied stores from supply points forward to units and the Petrol Transport speaks for itself. The way the army operates in the field as far as supply is concerned is that supplies, ammunition and petrol is brought forward by the supply system (of which he was a part) but only as far as what is called the B Echelon of the unit(s) concerned - from there the units collected stuff and took it to the front line. This of course does not rule out the odd occasion when he may have got too near for comfort and he was of course vulnerable always to attack from the air and long range artillery.
Medical - there should be a page entitled Medical history - it would be foolish to speculate. Don't be mislead either by my reference to a Casualty Clearing Station - this is a sort of intermediate medical facility between the units and a hospital and would treat an ingrowing toe nail as much as a shrapnel wound.
Durations in Egypt/Italy - there were three sets of initials covering that theatre of war and the clerks often mixed them up anyway. MEF was Egypt and across to Tunis, BNAF was Tunis to Algiers and then came CMF which was Italy and Balkans. They also were in force in different time frames.. Best way to know where your man was is from his units and where they were (it gets more complicated when a man crossed with his unit from North Africa to Italy!! So his service outline seems to exclude Italy (CMF) - not so, it was just that that part of his history is, pedantically, incorrect as he left BNAF for Italy.
Still with me?
As I suspected, the first part of his service you have now posted covers his time in England (caled Home in the record)
Joins in Nov 40, trains as a driver, learns about ammunition transport in Jan 41. Has leave and then is assessed as worthy of attachment to the Royal Regiment of Artillery and joins the RASC section of 53 LAA Regt RA in April 1941. While he "belongs" to 53 LAA, he is loaned out (Attached and "CTBA" ceases to become attached) for brief periods to other UK units, all of which is covered in the lines to the bottom when he has embarkation leave on 13 Feb 1942.
Convoy. I now look forward with excitement to hearing from Scouseboy who will tell us which convoy it was your man travelled on.
maxD
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Good morning ScouseBoy,
So I know that he sailed on April 5 1942 and arrived on June 25 in the Middle East. From the form, it would seem that he was with RASC Plat. 53 LAA RA. Am I reading this correctly? Where would I go to identify which convoy and/or ship he sailed on?
J from Canada
That date seems consistent with convoy WS18 which formed in the Clyde from various ships having previous points of embarkation and sailed on April 15 1942. There is a lengthy description of this and other convoys in "The Winston Specials" Troopships via the Cape 1940-1943 by Archie Munro and published by Maritime Books of Liskeard, Cornwall. The actual ship would be referred to in the war diary mentioned earlier.
C
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Good morning ScouseBoy,
So I know that he sailed on April 5 1942 and arrived on June 25 in the Middle East. From the form, it would seem that he was with RASC Plat. 53 LAA RA. Am I reading this correctly? Where would I go to identify which convoy and/or ship he sailed on?
J from Canada
That date seems consistent with convoy WS18 which formed in the Clyde from various ships having previous points of embarkation and sailed on April 15 1942. There is a lengthy description of this and other convoys in "The Winston Specials" Troopships via the Cape 1940-1943 by Archie Munro and published by Maritime Books of Liskeard, Cornwall. The actual ship would be referred to in the war diary mentioned earlier.
C
He may well have crossed the Atlantic to Halifax, Nova Scotia first, as my father did in November
1941, also a "WS" convoy.
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I wanted to re-look at the last few lines of "second half". We can see he changes theatre twice, from MEF to BNAF while remaining in the same unit (563) and then from BNAF to CMF while remaining in the same (new) unit My assessment is that he went from Egypt to Italy in Aug 43. I base this on the entry for an embarkation and then the later note of the entitlement to the Africa Star (ie you've just left Africa, here's your gong). (The 8th Army clasp was not instituted untillater, hence the later entry).
But again there is a sheet missing. He was overseas until Jan 1946 and demobbed in Apr 46 but "second half" ends in Sep 45 so I'd prefer not to complete the picture without the last (?) sheet.
Convoys The dates quoted for the putative convoy don't stack up with his record! He embarked on 29 MAY 1942. cpercival could perhaps tell us if this still cross checks with WS18??
maxD
Caveat - While I am pretty confident of my reading of the facts, without the war diaries of the units concerned, or other definitive proof such as the ORBAT of the 8th Army at the relevant times, I would not stand in front of a judge with this assessment of when his time in Italy began. Frustratingly, both the RLC and the RA Museums are not taking research queries at the moment, they would have been able to help with unit moves.
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Service in North Africa with the British First Army may qualify for The First Army clasp to the Africa Star depending on dates.
In the period between Victory in Europe and the surrender of Japan, provisional contingency plans were being made for men and women in the Middle East to "possibly" be transferred to the Far East theatre
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Sorry I was going by the sailing date given as 5 April. WS 19P sailed UK 31 May (the origin of the suffix P is unknown). The troops embarked were the 44 Infantry division. Embarkation was spread over six ships in Liverpool, Glasgow and the Clyde anchorages from 26 to 30th May. At Liverpool 132 Brigade HQ with 4Bn Royal West Kents and 2Bn The Buffs boarded Laconia which anchored in the river on 29th.
C
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The addition of "P" could denote that part of the convoy branched off at some point. Possible that P may stand for "Persia" for example?
Added Google search on WS convoys gives a fund of detail
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WS 19, 19W, 19P and 19Y were all carrying troops bound for Suez as reinforcements which were desperately needed at that time. the established routine was to trans ship at Durban to larger ships that ran the Durban to Suez shuttle while the original vessels turned around to be redeployed on other convoys.
C
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Service in North Africa with the British First Army may qualify for The First Army clasp to the Africa Star depending on dates.
In the period between Victory in Europe and the surrender of Japan, provisional contingency plans were being made for men and women in the Middle East to "possibly" be transferred to the Far East theatre
True but totally irrelevant to this man's service. His units were 8th Army so he got the 8th Army clasp and he did not serve in the far East - please read his records.
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Some of the WS convoys consisted of U.S. Navy troop ships with USN escorts.
Some convoys took the troops to Halifax Nova Scotia were they transferred to other ships.
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Convoy WS 19P sailed on 31/May 1942-1 June/42 from various west coast ports.and seems the likely contender The OP would be advised to read pages 301 to 311 of the book mentioned by C Percival.
Regarding Army War Diaries.
It is my understanding that by and large they did not mention an individual ship by name, usually by a coded number, which changed after every voyage. Nor do the vessels logbooks mention which Army/Air Force units were embarked. I will stand correction on this point but personal experience concurs with this statement.
Unless you have personal records, diaries, recollections official regimental histories written post war it is always difficult to tie down an individual person sailing on a particular ship.
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I'm sure war diaries varied in the degree of information contained. My suggestion was based on the war diary of 42RTR in which my father served and the relevant entry contains the information - April 22 1941 Personnel are taken aboard HMT F4 by sea transport tender at 0830 hrs. HMT F4 is the British India Steam Company's S.S. Aronda. Agreed not all war diaries may be as specific but such information was certainly contained in some.
C
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Yes I would agree with you insomuch that Army War Diaries may give the name as HMT M4 or whatever. The problem is fitting a name to the code number, especially as it was changed after every voyage Do you know if there is any type of index which will give that information?
regards
SW
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I dont know of any index that will give that information but my point was that the reference to SS Aronda was also included in the war diary. The entire piece is a direct quotation. I didn't add the reference to SS Aronda as an aside.
C
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OK. Thanks any way.
regards
SW
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Gosh. MANY heartfelt thanks to all of you who have provided this information. I've gone over it twice and have a few questions. As requested, I'm attaching the last page to this post.
J from Canada
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For further clarification . I should have consulted the definitive works on the ORBATs earlier.
It is now clear, looking at Josien's Orders of Battle and the summary in Nafziger, that 53 LAA Regiment which was the unit he went overseas with went to Egypt. This accords with the entry on "first half" 25 July 1942. So we have the beginning of his time overseas fixed.
The next embarkation (ie move on water!) was in August 1943 when his theatre changes from MEF to BNAF and later CMF which I submit m'Lud relates to the move of his unit to Italy. Thus we have the second part.
Seen the last page, think there is something missing entirely, it doesn't deal with discharge in UK.
I apologise for the bit by bit approach.
Caveat - as said before, I would really like to have seen the units in an ORBAT but so far have not worked through each of the formations in Italy although unfortunately, ORBATS tend not to show minor units such as transport companies.
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Struck off Strength of RASC unit to X (ii) list on admission to 19 Casualty Clearing(Clearance?) Station.
"And examined AF W3149" is Army Form W3149 which is headed "Report of Medical Examination" and is for 'Officers and other ranks of the military forces, nursing and auxiliary services who are relegated to unemployment or or transferred to the Army Reserve, or or retired or discharged for any reason other than invaliding".
This form was sent to the Officer in command RASC Records.
Disch is Discharged.
TOS ex X (ii) means he was sent back to his own unit from the X (2) list.
X ( 8 ) is the list of men heading back to the UK or who are already in the UK and are to be demobbed. Class A release meant that although the men were in the process of being demobbed (or had been already demobbed?) they could still be recalled to the colours should the need arise. It was feared that Germany and Japan might not honour their relevant surrender, so men were liable to recall should this be required.
RRTB
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My work here is done (subject to further questions)
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Many thanks for your patience and perseverance, MaxD, RRTB, seaweed, cpercival and ScouseBoy.
A few questions:
1. It seems the consensus is that he left the UK for the Middle East on the convoy WS 19P- is that right?
2. I know he was in Egypt. Because another specific ME location is not mentioned in his record ( that I am able to discern), does this mean that all his ME service was spent in Egypt?
3. His record suggests that he arrived in ME on July 25 1942 and he left on August 2, 1943. This August 2 date suggests this is when he left for Italy- is that correct?
4. Could you tell me which regiment he was with in Italy and for how long he was in Italy?
Many thanks once again!
J from Canada
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The next area on the North Africa coast in 1942 was called Cyrenaica, I think it is highly likely that he took part in the. Pursuit of the Axis forces westwards across the Western Desert in November and December 1942
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Thanks for the tip. What is in his service record that suggests this?
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The second battle of El Alamein started on 23 October 1942, about two weeks later the Axis forces, both German and Italian started a full retreat. Often the Germans would leave the Italians behind.
Elements of the allied forces went L for leather after the axis army, collecting prisoners along the way. So examine what the records say for November and December 1942.
It says somewhere on his record that he was Lines of Communication supply. RASC would be transporting the fuel.
Secondly, he may have embarked for Italy further west than Egypt
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Many thanks!
J from Canada
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I am very interested in this thread, as my dad was with the RASC in Alexandria for four years. He was further away from the front line than your man, he heard the artillery barrage at Alamein from 60 Kim's away
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It's an amazing history and I've already ordered the Archie Munro book.
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J The FACTS not the speculation are that:
He arrived in Egypt with 53 LAA Regiment (his record and the ORBAT documents) - there is no proof shown here that he was on the convoy mentioned.
He may have indeed entered other countries in North Africa with the units he was with then, 53 LAA then Base Depot, then the General Transport Coy then the Petrol Coy - only the war diaries of those units or the diaries of the higher formations to which they belonged will tell you where they were and I challenge folk to prove what they were (not what they guess they were). As I've said, the ORBATs don't list minor units.
In Italy 2nd or 28th August (earlier post)
In Italy with the Petrol Transport Company and then HQ RASC 13 Corps Troops (post 0720 this morning).
It says somewhere on his record that he was Lines of Communication supply. RASC would be transporting the fuel.
Scouseboy - why don't you read the images properly. The only mention in his record of Lines of Communication is in 1941 when he is England attached to 37 L of C Independent Brigade Company RASC in November 1941. Almost all his service was spent in the L of C but that is not what you said.
And to "examine the records for chasing prisoners for November and December" requires the war diaries which I and others have cited more than once.
J from Canada - I sincerely hope you can separate out the facts from the continual speculation here and recounting of the history of the North African campaign. There any number of books on the campaign, my personal recommendation would be Alan Moorehead "The Desert War", any good bookshop will be able to suggest others.
maxD
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Many thanks MaxD for the clarification. I have lots of leads to pursue now and can't thank you enough for staying with me until the end!
I appreciate all the splendid assistance I have received from you and all the others on this thread.
Sincerely,
J from Canada
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MaxD,
I am at TNA tomorrow and will try and take a look at War Diary of 53 LAA reg. RA. to see if it reveals the name of a ship. It should then be fairly straight forward to trace her movements.
Just making sure I have the correct piece number.
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C1005702
regards
SW
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Gosh, that would be marvellous!
Many thanks (again)!
J
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That's the one Seaweed - well done, restored my faith in believers in real research. Looking forward to the facts (if mentioned!!) If you have the time could you flick through to about Sep 1942 just for interest, you should find them off to Italy (our man was in hospital then).
maxD
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Can't wait! Thanks so much!
J
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I'm amazed at all the work put in by RRTB, cpercival and seaweed, and especially MaxD in interpreting these records.
J, I was going to suggest the name of someone who could copy the war diary for you, but I see that seaweed has stepped in kindly offered to look at this for you.
Excellent work! :)
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I am fortunate indeed and most thankful for the kindness offered a stranger. A kindred spirit being a fellow family historian but still a stranger.
J
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We're all here to help each other in whatever way we can, be it big or small.
RRTB
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Ruskie - I have sent you a PM
J from Canada - you are most welcome. I consider it a privilege to be allowed to ferret around in a stranger's family history and to hopefully shine light in previous dark corners. Bit pompous that, I don't play golf and its cold outside - what else should I do with my time, RRTB has it right. :)
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We're all here to help each other in whatever way we can, be it big or small.
RRTB
Absolutely agree with your comments RRTB and we should be encouraging new forum member's to join into the exchange of information.
None of us is infallible, and we cannot be correct 100% of the time. The problem is certain forum members rush into answering post's with no real knowledge of the subject in hand and give ill informed information which bears no relevance, often sending the thread sideway's confusing all concerned.
This can be very frustrating to serious forum contributor's, which I think manifests itself in some of the post's in this thread. So it must be doubly confusing to new posters.
Dim ateb yn well nag ateb anghywir. Nid oes dim yn ddall fel rhai nad ydynt yn dymuno gweld
regards
SW
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Very well said RRTB, MaxD and seaweed. I couldn't agree more with the sentiments expressed.
The camaraderie between rootschat members on threads like this is what this forum is all about! Knowledgable people working together.
Yes, seaweed, none of us gets it right all the time, but we all learn from our own and others' mistakes, and despite the frustrations and distractions we sometimes encounter on some of these threads, hopefully together we can steer them in the right direction and, though it can be difficult, overcome those little annoyances that we meet along the way.
Apologies for waxing lyrical on a thread I was not a contributor to, however I admire those who did, and feel compelled to have my say. :)
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Dim ateb yn well nag ateb anghywir. Nid oes dim yn ddall fel rhai nad ydynt yn dymuno gweld
regards
SW
Quoted for truth, seaweed.
RRTB
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Good morning all! I appreciate and understand the sentiments expressed.
I'm a firm believer in paying it forward. As a result, I'll be making a donation to the toy drive for local children in my community.
Wishing you a splendid day!
J
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Looked at the War Diary May-Dec 1942 of 53 LAA Regiment RA.
Basically it reads,Liverpool 29/May/1942 1700. De trained and embarked on HMT H7 at Princes Landing Stage.
Liverpool 31/May/1942 1200 Sailed from the Mersey.
It go's on to say on page 3
Durban 7/July/1942 1430 re embarked on HMT H7
Durban 8/July/1942 1200 departed.
So it seems we have established they did sail in Convoy WS19P but am no nearer to finding the name of HMT H7. Although I think I can narrow it down to three possibilities.
It looks like the RASC Platoon detached from 53 LAA sometime in September 1942 as there is no mention of them after this.
I photographed all of the relevant pages up until the end of December If more experienced eyes wish to peruse them at their leisure, I will burn a disc or two. Just let me know with a postal address via PM.
regards SW
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Seaweed,
Thank you VERY much indeed. What great detective work! Could you tell me what the three likely possibilities are for HMT H7?
Gratefully,
J
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have a look at this web site
www.naval-history.net for more detail
and then search for WS convoys.
It also gives the names of the royal Navy escorts, including Rodney
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The three options on the ships as far as I can make out from studying my copy of Archie Munro's book were Laconia, Santa Rosa or Christiaan Huygens. In fact eight ships sailed from Liverpool on 31 May led by Laconia (Captain Sharp) and followed at five minute intervals by Christiaan Huygens, Orontes, Andes, Poelau Roebiah, New Zealand Star, Talisse and Santa Rosa. However all but the three I mentioned as candidates plus Orontes whose cargo is not specified, were loaded with guns, tanks, vehicles and stores only. The main convoy escort was the battleship Nelson, sister ship to the Rodney.
C
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Wonderful! Thanks very much ScouseBoy and C.
J from Canada
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Seaweed and cpercival- well done indeed - a first class example of using proper research to confirm information.
Seaweed - The RASC platoon ran its own diary from July to Dec 1942 so it was still attached but its parent obviously decided to ignore them! However, as our man left that unit before September it doesn't matter as the question was the convoy. More in a PM.
maxD
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The three options on the ships as far as I can make out from studying my copy of Archie Munro's book were Laconia, Santa Rosa or Christiaan Huygens. In fact eight ships sailed from Liverpool on 31 May led by Laconia (Captain Sharp) and followed at five minute intervals by Christiaan Huygens, Orontes, Andes, Poelau Roebiah, New Zealand Star, Talisse and Santa Rosa. However all but the three I mentioned as candidates plus Orontes whose cargo is not specified, were loaded with guns, tanks, vehicles and stores only. The main convoy escort was the battleship Nelson, sister ship to the Rodney.
C
I would concur with cpercival regarding the three likely candidates but there's no way I can confirm this from my own records. LACONIA was sunk in December 1942 and the other two vessels were foreign flagged. I think we can remove ORONTES from the candidates as she arrived in Suez on the 22/7/42. The ship transporting 53 LAA arrived on the 25/7/42.
I have spoken via email to Archie Monroe in the past and always gained the impression he was a dedicated and knowledgeable researcher. So for the sake of progress we will take details from his book as being correct.
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Brilliant! Tanag may be Tanah about 200km NW of Suez.
maxD
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Warwick Castle is one of the possible candidates to be ship H7
Warwick Castle was one of the ships in Convoy WS19P
see: http://uboat.net/allies/merchants/2427.html
For photograph and description of Warwick Castle as a Troop ship
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The sinking of the Warwick Castle in November 1942 has absolutely nothing to do with this thread which concern the arrival in N Africa of a convoy in July 1942. I hae asked the moderators to look at your post.
maxD
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Warwick Castle was one of the ships in convoy WS 19P
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Until 13 July only when it was detached from WS19P after Durban to go to Mombasa so not on the convoy from that point.
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I note the thread has been sent sideway's yet again. This is getting beyond belief!
Scouse Boy, WARWICK CASTLE CANNOT BE CONSIDERED A CONTENDER FOR HMT H7. APART FROM ANYTHING ELSE SHE DEPARTED FROM GLASGOW NOT LIVERPOOL.
Max, I have sent you more pages from the War Diary the rest to follow shortly. In later pages TANAG is referred to as TAHAG. A typo I believe.
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Thanks Seaweed, email reply on the way.
maxD
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Good morning from Sunny Canada!
How wonderful that the threads of this marvellous story are still being woven by the intrepid military historian/detectives!
Fabulous. MUCH APPRECIATED - once again!!
J
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It may be possible to narrow down our short list of likely ships. Does the war diary mention a stop in Capetown? According to a website I have found on the routing of WS19P from Freetown, both Laconia and Santa Rosa went to Capetown first and only Christiaan Huygens of our three was routed direct to Durban.
Just by the way Scouseboy was right about the involvement of HMS Rodney in the escort. HMS Nelson was the main escort from UK to Freetown where she was joined by HMS Rodney. Both battleships then escorted the convoy as far as 12 degrees South in the Gulf of Guinea off the Angolan coast before detaching for Gibraltar where they were committed to the August 'Pedestal' convoy to Malta. That last a little bit off piste I know but it helps to paint in the picture.
C
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It may be possible to narrow down our short list of likely ships. Does the war diary mention a stop in Capetown? According to a website I have found on the routing of WS19P from Freetown, both Laconia and Santa Rosa went to Capetown first and only Christiaan Huygens of our three was routed direct to Durban.
C
Could you give us a link to the website you quoted? The War Diary says they sailed directly to Durban after replenishment at Freetown.
What is interesting is that the movement card of CHRISTIAAN HUYGENS taken from BT389/35/119 coincides with the dates arrival and departure at Freetown, Durban and the date of arrival in Suez as the War Diary. It also states, she was part of WS19P.
I would say, given what we have. There is a strong possibility that CHRISTIAAN HUYGENS was His Majesty's Troopship H7 for the voyage in question.
what do other's think?
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Working one's way down WS19P until it became WS19PA on http://www.naval-history.net/xAH-WSConvoys05-1942A.htm I end up with Chateau Thierry, NZ Star, Poelau R..., Talisse and C H plus Laconia joining later as the final package of vessels sailing independently to Suez after passing Aden. Arrival of all given as 23 July 42. (War diary says 25th). I pass on choosing which one!
Please can we keep off the escorts in this thread. While it may be of general interest, the aim here is to link the arrival in Suez of the vessel carrying 53 LAA Regt and the precious RASC man known to his friends as Frank the driver to his service record.
maxD
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My source is http://www.convoyweb.org.uk/ws/index.html?ws_sitemap.htm~wsmain
Sorry maxD about straying into the convoy escort. A little self indulgent.
The referenced site contains a table of the ships of WS19 leaving Freetown and where they were tasked to. Laconia and Santa Rosa inter alia to Capetown and Christiaan Huygens and others to Durban. Laconia was thence to join fast convoy WS19L ahead of the others but was found to be too slow and sent back to rejoin WS19P. The key is; did our subject go to Capetown or Durban? The snippet of war diary posted by SW shows disembarkation/re-embarkation at Durban and thereon rests my case.
As to the code HMT H7 the initials stand for 'Hired Military Transport' and the number H7 was probably a local convoy number with no lasting significance.
C
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So are we concluding that CHRISTIAAN HUYGENS is the vessel that carried the original posters man? I would go along with that.
regards SW
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Yep. That's my conclusion. If accepted there are some pictures of the ship on this site that might be of interest.
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=christiaan+huygens+ship&rlz=1C1GGGE_en-gbGB410GB440&espv=2&biw=1366&bih=648&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiKgq6Pj-TQAhUIIcAKHYmFARgQsAQIMA
Clive P
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Clive and Seaweed in matters maritime you are clearly the experts. A closely researched and supported conclusion - a joy to behold.
J from Canada now has a story that says, in outline, "Frank the driver travelled overseas in a convoy which left Liverpool on 31 May 1942 sailing round the Cape of Good Hope and arriving at Suez on 23rd or 25th July 1942. Experts who have looked at convoy movements of the time have concluded that the vessel he travelled on was the Christiaan Huygens (see pics). From there (war diary takes over)". She also has a mine of additional information which she can add if she wishes.
I propose we await the few hours until sunrise in beautiful BC when I am sure J from Canada will see this morning's posts and, reading your submissions, think she has won the lottery. For my part thank you both for filling in the bit of his story between initial service in the UK and his overseas service with the 8th Army. All we need now is his shoe size and we've cracked it.
maxD
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I've been following this thread with interest and congratulate those experts, such as Seaweed, Max and Clive who, using solid evidence, have managed to solve the mystery. It really does make a change to see it presented in such a way, rather than wild guesses without anything to back it up. That is how research should be. Well done!
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Groom - that really is most generous, thank you. For my part, this topic has been a pleasure to work on, not least for the opportunity to hear from experts in another field.
maxD
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I've been following this thread with interest and congratulate those experts, such as Seaweed, Max and Clive who, using solid evidence, have managed to solve the mystery. It really does make a change to see it presented in such a way, rather than wild guesses without anything to back it up. That is how research should be. Well done!
I second that. Just fantastic PROPER research!
I've decided to get my father's service record and I'm looking forward to your expert analysis of it. Including the convoy information ;)
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There is a temptation to keep on keeping on so a (perhaps) final snippet for your delectation and delight.
Thanks to Seaweed who has sent me the beginnings of the war diary of 53 LAA Regt RA, we can say that after disembarking at Suez the regiment moved north west via the odd transit camp or two until on 30 August the guns were deployed in a number of positions in protection of units of 10th Armoured Division near the coast to the west of Alexandria. At 0230 on 31 August they received the code word to adopt battle positions. The enemy must have been listening because at 1000 on 31 August an area two miles east of the HQ position came under attack from JU87s (the infamous Sturzkampfflugzeug, Stuka) and then again at 1800 three miles east. The nearby main Div HQ was later shelled for half an hour (they wisely moved soon after) and reports were heard of a breakthrough by 70 tanks somewhere to the south. Frank's war was under way.
maxD
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A good morning to all and especially ME! This is superb on so many levels. First, let me offer my most sincere thanks to you all once again for your most concerted efforts to see this through to the bitter end. When I initially posted my query, I did not anticipate at all that such an experienced and knowledgeable group of experts would zoom in and, through a meticulous process, offer up such a wealth of information. As a family historian, I am delighted that these details have now come to light for my own family. Like most of you, part of my joy in following this passion is uncovering those individuals and events that have been lost over time. As a former academic, I concur with the most recent posts here as I am incredibly impressed with the impeccable methodology employed. And, finally as a wife, I am going to score major brownie points when I present this story (including the tale of our detectives) to my husband on Christmas morning. I cannot say more. J
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What a conclusion to an interesting story. The team work on this has been superb. Well done to Max, Clive and Seaweed.
What has amazed me is how a virtually undecipherable "coded" service record and a war diary have been translated into a fascinating and (relatively) easy to understand time line of events.
JenB - I think you might have some gems in your father's service record - please do post it for the experts to decipher. :)
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What a superb outcome! Well done to Max, Clive and Seaweed indeed.
JenB - I think you might have some gems in your father's service record - please do post it for the experts to decipher. :)
Seconded. You never know what might be in there!
RRTB
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Many thanks to J from Canada for presenting us with such an interesting project. Especially for me from the convoy point of view. It has been a pleasure and a privilege to work on this conundrum and I have been delighted to be able to contribute. Merry Christmas J.
Clive
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Thank you very much for your kind words, Clive. A wonderful experience all around!
Wishing you a very Merry Christmas to you as well.
J
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Readers will be delighted to know that the diary of the RASC Platoon attached to 53 Light Anti Aircraft Regiment RA records their disembarkation at Port Tewfik on 25 July 1942 at 1730hrs from the -wait for it - Christiaan Huygens.
Many congratulations to cpercival and Seaweed, bang on the money - you are both on the list for an extra satsuma at Christmas.
(Acknowledgement also to Seaweed for his recommendation of the outstanding copying service. Details available by PM to any interested parties).
maxD
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Excellent and intelligent detective work which has paid off - a great result to tie it all up nicely. :)
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Readers will be delighted to know that the diary of the RASC Platoon attached to 53 Light Anti Aircraft Regiment RA records their disembarkation at Port Tewfik on 25 July 1942 at 1730hrs from the -wait for it - Christiaan Huygens.
Wonderful. Apart from the occasional digressions ::) this has been a marvellous thread.
you are both on the list for an extra satsuma at Christmas.
Max, please don't get carried away ;D
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just a footnote to the above that may interest J. My Dad trod ( metaphorically) this path in April 1941 with 42nd RTR. They also stopped in Durban and amongst his papers I have a card welcoming soldiers with what to see and do whilst in Durban, and thanking them for their service. I don't doubt they were still being given out throughout the campaign. If anyone would like to PM me an email address I'll be happy to scan and forward a copy.
Clive
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I would just like to say what a fantastic journey (no pun intended) I've had following this thread!!!
I can't believe the enormous amount of work & dedication which has gone into it.
In no particular order, amazing stuff - cpercival, Seaweed & maxD.
Apart from being steered (no pun intended again) off course a few times, this is one of my top favourites.
From a small amount of info. we now have a Seafaring Biography....Fantastic guys!!!
Annie
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Good evening,
What a fantastic lesson in research techniques and deciphering documents. I'm quite jealous, still, one day maybe.
John915
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An update to the intrepid team of detectives-
My husband was quite overwhelmed with his extra-special Christmas gift comprised of the service records of his grandfathers which included a substantial collection of documents and explanatory texts provided by all of you. He will be reviewing it all in detail over the coming weeks. It had an added bonus of delighting my mother in law, our two adult children and inspiring a Christmas visitor who wants to begin his own family history journey.
I can't thank you all enough for your most generous and kind assistance to me!
J from Canada
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Marvellous, very good to hear.
maxD
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Thank you for the update J. It's always good to know how information was received.
I've just re-read this entire thread - it's inspiring. :)
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That is good to hear, especially that so many people were also pleased to learn about it as well.
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Isn't that wonderful to hear! Thank you, J.
RRTB
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Great stuff!
Always here to help If I can.
A happy and prosperous New Year to you all.
regards
SW
;)