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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Warwickshire Lookup Requests => Warwickshire => England => Warwickshire Completed Lookup Requests => Topic started by: hadenmaiden on Thursday 01 December 16 17:21 GMT (UK)
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I wonder if there is anyone using this forum that has easy access to late 1800s baptismal records, please?
I am researching a Harry Dean, who was killed in action in WW1.
So far I have unearthed very little information about him, apart from the address of an aunt, and the fact that he was born in Hockley, Birmingham. Rather unhelpfully, the soldiers died and CWGC information doesn't give his age at death. I know that he enlisted quite early in WW1 long before conscription, so working on the principle that he was at the younger end of the scale.
What would be really great, would be if someone could check for a baptism for Harry Dean, in Hockley, probably between 1885 and 1899. Hopefully that should cover it. There are a couple of possible matches on Ancestry, but not enough information to tell if either was born in Hockley. Please delete, if this is an inappropriate request, thank you ;)
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1901 census has a surprising number of Harry Deans born in that era, in Birmingham area. None specifically Hockley.
And of course he could well have started out as a Henry.
What is the aunt's name? Can we find which one via her?
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Thank you for such a prompt response, Lizdb.
Yes, I've searched the 1901 and 1911 and realise there are several to choose from! Sadly all I have for the aunt is that she's a Mrs G Wiggins, living in Shoeburyness in 1920.
I've trawled Wiggins/Dean marriages without any joy, and tried a couple of the mother's maiden names for the likely candidates, with the same result.
Hence my thoughts that the baptismal register would at least provide one, or maybe both parents names,which would b enough for me to get cracking!
Aunt doesn't seem to be around by 1939 - thought that might help me track back to Harry........
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Hi
There is this one.... not sure if he's right,but it seems to fit the bill.
Baptism Register
Hockley All Saints
Birmingham Warwickshire
Harold son of George Alfred and Minnie DEAN. Born 2nd August 1897. Baptised 18th August 1897. Father's Occupation Burnisher.
Cheers
Karenlee
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Mrs G Wiggins, according to etiquette, would be using her husbands initial
A George & Eliza Wiggins are at 6 Earth Pit Row, Shoebury circa 1920
Might not be your couple though
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This might seem a daft question, but are you sure he was from Hockley, Birmingham and not Hockley in Essex?
The reason I ask is that the George and Eliza Wiggins in Shoeburyness (as posted by dawnsh) are at that same address on last census and living with them is a Harry Dean 19 supposedly born Essex although I can't find him anyway. Seems too much of a coincidence to not be the right couple.
George Wiggins married Eliza Joslin in 1897 (she was born Mar.1873 Rochford) but can't see any marriages between Dean/Joslin either.
There certainly were Dean's being born in Hockley, Essex at the relevant period hence my question.
However, Eliza Joslin is also an enigma in that she can't be found on any census before her marriage (when she married father named as John and a John Joslin and Charlotte Joslin witnessed it). Her birthplace on census given as Great Wakering but can find no trace of her in earlier records there.
Annette
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Thank you all, this is perfect!
Annette7, not a daft question at all - I thought the same. Soldiers Died definitely says Hockley, Birmingham. ;)
Dawnsh, yes, convention would have put her husband's name in place of hers then -great to know they were still there at that time.
Karenlee, wonderful, I'm sure that'll be him! I can investigate with the family tree to confirm, but very confident with that.
Delighted with all of this help, thank you :D :D :D :D :D :D
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No worries hadenmaiden. I have been trying to place an Eliza marrying a WIGGINS with this family, but failing so far. Hope that you have more luck.
Cheers
Karenlee
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However, Eliza Joslin is also an enigma in that she can't be found on any census before her marriage (when she married father named as John and a John Joslin and Charlotte Joslin witnessed it). Her birthplace on census given as Great Wakering but can find no trace of her in earlier records there.
Annette
There is a likely looking Eliza Joslin with parents John and Charlotte in Braintree on the 1871 census RG10; Piece: 1702; Folio: 41; Page: 19
For Eliza to be aunt, it is likely one of her siblings would be the parent of Harry Dean. Therefore, siblings that we need to chase to confirm this is correct family are:
Arthur Joslin (b c. 1863)
Joseph Joslin (b. c. 1864)
Elizabeth Joslin (b. c. 1866)
Martha Joslin (b c. 1869)
Emma Joslin (b c. 1873)
James Joslin (b . 1877)
George Joslin (b. 1879)
William Joslin (b c. 1884)
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Have you looked here. This will give his NOK which may help you find him:
http://search.ancestry.co.uk/search/db.aspx?dbid=60506
If you don't have access give his military details.
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Thanks again to everybody!
Jim1 - Soldiers effects for this man is the first one I've found where there is no next of kin or legatee mentioned. The Aunt's address is from his Medal Index Card!
Spider monkey, and Karenlee, I'll start a proper search now that I have something to 'attach him to'. Will report back when I've had a good look round.
Great support team, thank you all!!
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Can't see any hint that Harry belongs to Martha Joslin. Martha marries firstly to Alfred Sams and then to Charles Sharp.
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There are 2 Harry Dean's on the B'ham AV list but as we don't know when he died I can't say if either are him or not.
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There are 2 Harry Dean's on the B'ham AV list but as we don't know when he died I can't say if either are him or not.
Harry Dean, of the K(ings?) R(oyal?) Rifles, Reg No 10543, died 23/8/16
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I think on the Soldier's Effects register, he was part of the 11th (service) Battalion.
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That's right - I'm working back from being KIA; just need a family to attach him to!
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I'm not sure if you missed this or not.
From Dawnsh:
Mrs G Wiggins, according to etiquette, would be using her husbands initial
A George & Eliza Wiggins are at 6 Earth Pit Row, Shoebury circa 1920
Might not be your couple though
6 Earth Pit Row is the address given on the MIC.
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In 1911 a Harry Dean aged 19 born Great Wakering is in South Shoebury
Moderator comment: edited for content
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Thanks, Jim1 ;)
MIC is where I got the aunt's address.
Think I replied to Dawn - apologies if I didn't :)
Definitely the right family, going to spend the weekend building his tree, will report back to let you know how it's going.
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As they were married 14 years would make the Wiggins/Joslin marriage the correct one.
It's possible Joslin isn't her maiden name if she re-married to George.
She was also born Gt. Wakering 1873 if the census is to be believed.
Edit:
looks like it was as there's an Eliza Joslin born there 1873. so that's another door shut.
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Monday morning update ;)
I'm beginning to get a better picture of this now, i think.
The baptism of the Harry Dean in Hockley, Birmingham is definitely not the Harry Dean in Earth Pit Row. Following the Hockley one forward, he is still with parents George and Minnie in Shifnal in 1901 and as William henry in 1911. So, that's definitely not the one.
The Earth Pit Row man is the right one - but so far, I'm failing to link him to the Wiggins family. I'm beginning to wonder if he 'adopted' Eliza as his aunt in lieu of having a known next of kin when he enlisted.
None of the military documents list another name to link him to.
Thank you to everybody for the sterling help on this one, very much appreciated!!
Updated to add: There are a few Deans in Great Wakering in 1901: in New Road- brothers James 24, Albert 22, George 20 and sister Lily 18. They have a boarder, Harry FOX right age, for my Harry Dean, born in the right place. No mother's maiden name on the birth registration, and his younger brother, Charlie was born in Hockley .......
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I'm beginning to wonder if he 'adopted' Eliza as his aunt in lieu of having a known next of kin when he enlisted.
I wondered if that was the case.
If she was his nearest relative I'm sure he would have listed her as his NOK.
He must have been in contact with her probably throughout his service as she seemed to know a lot about him & applied for his medals knowing they would go unclaimed if she didn't.
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Do we have Shoebury Harry on the 1901 census?
And just out of sheer curiousity, how does this Harry Dean fit with the Lambeth one?
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Do we have Shoebury Harry on the 1901 census?
We do now!!! (well, maybe!)
New Road, Great Wakering
James Dean Head S 24 Brickfields labourer
Albert Dean Brother S 22 Labourer on Govt (?) Works
George R Dean Brother S 20 Mariner, mate of barge
Harry Fox Boarder 10
Charley Fox Boarder 7
Lily Dean Sister S 18 Domestic
Emily Jordan Visitor S 30 Domestic servant
All born Great Wakering except Charley Fox bn Hockley, Essex, and Emily Jordan born Wiltshire
ETA - can I just point out that the post three above this hadn't been updated when I posted this ;)
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Have found both Harry and Charles Cecil Fox's birth refs on free bmd and cross referenced them to GRO index. Both come up as Fox surname and "-" as MMN
Charles Cecil Fox - Rochford M qtr 1894 4a 523
Harry Fox - Rochford J qtr 1891 4a 539
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If we skip back to the 1881 census, we have this family who might look a bit familiar.....
Robert Dean Head Mar 37 Brickfield Lab bn HIllingdon, Middx
Sarah A Dean Wife Mar 39 bn Northampton ??
Caroline L Fox Dau 10 bn Dalston, Middx
Jas W Dean Son 4 bn Gt Wakering
Albert Dean Son 2 bn Gt Wakering
George R Dean Son 7mnths bn Gt Wakering
So, I think Caroline gets pregnant with Harry and Charley, they are called Fox on 1901 census, which has changed to Dean (in Harry's case) by 1911. So do they fit in with the Joslins??
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Looks like Charles Cecil Fox ends up out in Canada. On his enlistment papers he gives the following details for NOK:
Kate Fox,
Gwalia, 23 Chelmsford Ave, Southend on Sea
date Nov 20th 1914
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Looks like Charles Cecil Fox ends up out in Canada. On his enlistment papers he gives the following details for NOK:
Kate Fox,
Gwalia, 23 Chelmsford Ave, Southend on Sea
date Nov 20th 1914
I cannot find any evidence at the moment for a Kate Fox being at that address - she isn't there in 1939. To be honest, I can't find any evidence that a Kate Fox exists at all. I think I have found Charles in Canada on the 1920 Canadian census in Tilbury East, Ontario. He gives his date of immigration as 1903 which made me wonder if he was a Barnados Home Child, which then led me to this reference: http://www.bac-lac.gc.ca/eng/discover/immigration/immigration-records/home-children-1869-1930/immigration-records/Pages/item.aspx?IdNumber=99820
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:D
I think we'd make a great detective between us!!
Yes, the 1911 Shoebury Harry Dean is the same as the 1901 Great Wakering Harry Fox. I'm pretty confident this is the man, and will get a birth certificate to confirm at least one parent!
As far as fitting in with the Joslins, they were in the same village, with pretty small population, I suspect that it was a case of him latching on to a mother substitute who would offer a bit of support [but don't have any primary evidence for that, at this stage it's a hunch!!]
Caroline L shows as Caroline L Dean in 1891, relation to head - stepdaughter. Head of household was Robert Deane, wife Sarah - married 1873, Rochford.
So, it appears that Caroline is likely the mother of Harry, and half sister to the Dean brothers. This explains why Harry took the surname Dean.
Spidermonkey - top marks for observation! There isn't a physical link between the this and the Lambeth Harry Dean [as far as I know - that really would freak me out!!] I have a WW1 Death Penny in the name of Harry Dean and am trying to research possibilities to be able to make sure whichever one he was, he will be remembered. ;)
Great work, team, much appreciated!!
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Spider monkey - Please accept a virtual medal from me!!!
I am just thrilled to bits to find a Dean link with the British home Children - my absolute pet obsession! You've made an old [ish] lady very happy today :D :D :D
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Can't guarantee that it is correct - but at the moment it seems to stack up!
Just trying to work out the circumstances where the Dean family would put an 8 year old boy on a boat knowing they would probably never see him again.
So far, it looks as if
Sarah Ann Dean (Caroline's mother) dies in 1895 (Rochford 4a 276)
Robert Dean (so Caroline's step father) dies in 1898 (Rochford 4a 377)
1911 - James Dean is a boarder in Southend
George Dean is on a Barge
I wonder if the Joslins decided to take on Harry as an informal adoption/fostering around the same time Charlie was sent away?
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Spider monkey, the family probably didn't have a lot of choice! Over 100,000 children were emigrated from the UK to Canada over the years. Some were orphans, very many weren't. My two great uncles were sent in 1909 from a local children's home in Wolverhampton - both parents still alive, but very poor. Once the boys reached the age of 5 they were considered old enough to work, and both countries did pretty well out of the exchange financially - it was just the families and children who didn't always see an positive results!
Some of the children were well treated and made a good life, others were treated pretty much as slaves. Many died young, many ran away and there were more than a few incidences of suicide.
Happy to pass on links if you'd like to read more about the system. There's also a really good group on Facebook if you find any family links that you need to explore.
I've declared this query resolved now - thank you to everyone - I wouldn't have got this far, or even close - on my own! Your time and effort is really appreciated ;) ;) ;)
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I understand why people did use the Barnados system, and can appreciate that for some people there really was no other option so my comments weren't a criticism. I was just trying to understand what events had happened in the Dean family's life to see how they could get to that point - and the death of the two grandparents (Robert and Sarah Ann) must have had a huge impact on the family. (Got to admit though, having an 8 year old son called Charlie myself, that there may have been an emotional reaction to it :'()
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Spidermonkey - not taken as a criticism at all - sorry if the response came over that way, I didn't intend it to! There's a really good seminar on the National archives [I think] website, that includes a letter from a father begging for his sons not to be sent to Canada, because they are all he has left after the death of his wife. Needless to say, his pleas were in vain. The British home Children are a bit of a hobby horse of mine, and I tend to go on a bit ;D
I discovered earlier this year that over 1000 of them died in WW1 fighting for the country that shipped them out to another continent so they weren't a social problem here! Currently working with one of the agencies that sent them to see if we can raise funds for an appropriate memorial.
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I remember reading about "Home Children" in Anne of Green Gables, but at the time didn't appreciate what the difference was with orphans coming from an orphanage and a home child.
Both Harry Dean (Hockley) and Harry Dean (Lambeth) have fascinating stories - it would make a fab article (One Death Penny, Two Harries!)
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If Charles C Fox is 'ours' then this is the end of his chapter http://geneofun.on.ca/names/photo/1309153
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;) Spidermonkey - thank you again for a great link.
I see I've hooked you into the Harry Dean mystery - there are, in fact TEN of them! [Thats if you only count the men who enlisted as Harry, and not those with middle names, which would also have been engraved on their death penny]
I'm aiming to produce a mini 'biography for each of the ten - most have been relatively easy to start off, but both Lambeth man [#5] and Hockley man [#7] have necessitated me begging for help. Happy to share what I get when it's all put together, if you'd be interested.
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I'd love to see the finished piece! Good luck