RootsChat.Com
Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Topic started by: wmonks on Tuesday 22 November 16 14:51 GMT (UK)
-
Good Day, I'm new to this site. I am researching my husband's Scottish ancestry. The first family is the Allan family. I have some documentation showing the following William Allan, born 1859 in the Parish of Neilston/Refrew. His father is Thomas Allan, born 1821 Kincardine {Perth} and is the son of Peter and Kath. McBeath. This family immigrated to Canada at some point, which we can't find. William Allan married a woman named Margaret Mitchell, though born in Canada, her parents were also from Scotland, born in Lochgair, Argyllshire area. Any information is welcomed. Thank you and have a great day.
-
Hi and welcome to Rootschat would this be his birth
William Allan 19 January 1859
Neilston Renfrewshire
Father Thomas Allan mother Jane Rigg
Rosie
-
A marriage for a William Allen 3 April 1890 Detroit Wayne Michigan age 27 occupation boiler maker
Father Thomas Allen mother Jane Rigg
Spouse Maggie Mitchell age 22 father Robb Mitchell
Death for William Allan 19 th June 1936 Sumpter Wayne Michigan aged 77 widower
Same parents
Rosie
-
Yes, it is. Being an American, I'm always confused as to exactly what "town" they are are born in, which is why I listed everything. This family immigrated to Canada, and I'm trying to figure out when they immigrated and maybe why. I know where in Canada they eventually settled. The Mitchell family that is mentioned immigrated to Canada in about the 1830's. We believe that Thomas Allan was a "calico printer" weaver the documentation we have says " Calico Printer, Kincaidfield", and on 14/03/1846 there is a record of them residing in this Parish (Campsie) where they entered their names in order to Proclamation of Banns, but nothing of the actual marriage itself.
Yes William Allan is my husband's great grandfather.
-
So do you have them on the 1861 census Neilston Renfrewshire
Thomas Allan occupation Block Printer ..I can post other details if you don't have these records
Rosie
-
I don't believe I do have that information. That would be awesome if you could post that. ;D It's greatly appreciated. This is so exciting. The family search on my family tree has gone into a brick wall due to no documentation for the American Indian, so I decided to try his side of the family to give me a break from that.
-
1861 census address Grahams Land Toll Bar Neilston Renfrewshire
Thomas Allan age 39 block printer
Jane Allan age 36 born Denny Stirlingshire ( Keeper of Toll Choc Bar )
Peter 14,John 11,Thomas 9,James 7,Janet 5, William 2,
Margaret McDougall age 30 sister in law
Rosie
-
1851 census Allisons Land Newton Mearns Renfrewshire
Thomas Allan age 28 calico printer
Jean Allan age 26
Peter 4,John 2,
Thomas Allan age 30 born Glasgow tailor journeyman lodger some relation maybe
Rosie
-
This is so exciting. Thank you, Thank you, Thank you. The other Thomas could be a a cousin or something or an uncle. On the documentation I have for Thomas and Jane's Banns, it list as parents Peter Allan and John Rigg, but for the witnesses, it lists a Thomas Allan and a Robert Larvie or Iarvie or Jarvie (the handwriting is hard to decipher).
-
Hi Rose if I may ask for an explanation what does it mean where it says 1851 census "Allisons Land Newton Mearns Refrewshire" and on the 1861 census address Grahams Land Toll Bar Neilston Renfrewshire?
-
Marriage for Thomas Allan 14 March 1846 Campsie Stirling
Father Peter Allan spouse Jane Rigg
1871 census 7,Lylesland Abbey Burgh Renfrewshire
Thomas 49,Jane 47,John 21,Thomas ,James 27 ,Janet 14, William 12
Alex 9, David 6, Jane 3, Mrs McDougall 43 ,visitor Janet McDougall 7
Can see marriages for some of this family in Canada
Rosie
-
Hi Rose if I may ask for an explanation what does it mean where it says 1851 census "Allisons Land Newton Mearns Refrewshire" and on the 1861 census address Grahams Land Toll Bar Neilston Renfrewshire?
Address where they were living you could try google
-
Again, this is so exciting to us. Thank you so much, this is just so wonderful. I would like to find information on Thomas' parents as well, and if there is any connection to a Clan and or Tartan. As this is where I've hit the proverbial brick wall.
-
Will have a look later and see what else I can find struggling to find an immigration record some of the lists are very hard to make out :D
Rosie
-
I can imagine. Thanks so much for everything. Hope you have a great day. Here in the US, we start our Thanksgiving Holiday this week.
-
On the documentation I have for Thomas and Jane's Banns, it list as parents Peter Allan and John Rigg, but for the witnesses, it lists a Thomas Allan and a Robert Larvie or Iarvie or Jarvie (the handwriting is hard to decipher).
Welcome to rootschat ;)
I would hazard a guess that the surname is Jarvie.
As an aside, I have Allan's from Laurencekirk (Kincardine)/Montrose (Angus)/Aberdeen although I haven't researched too far.
Annie
-
Hi Annie, Jarvie is probably right. One of the documentation I have indicates that a Thomas Allan was born in Kincardine, [Perth] 1821, his father is listed as Peter and mother as Kath. McBeath.
-
This could maybe be a possible sibling of Thomas Allan
James Allan born 17 /11/1823 Tibbermore Perthshire
Father Peter Allan mother Catherine Macbeath
By 1891 the family are in Canada Elgin East Yarmouth Ontario
Rosie
-
Yes, it is a brother to Thomas, and yes most of the family was in Elgin county, East Yarmouth, St. Thomas Ontario. Thomas and Jane are buried there. William had already immigrated to the US by that date. We can't find when they arrived in Canada. Thank you again for your assistance and any further information.
-
The problem with Peter Allan and Catherine McBeath is trying to find them on census forms ? providing they were still living ...You most probably have this the death for Margaret Mitchell 12 November 1921 Detroit Wayne Michigan age 91 ( wife of Robert ) has her birth as August 1830 ..
Father Duncan Mitchell mother Christina Leitch
Immigation record for Margaret Mitchell arrival Canada 1831 family members Christina Leitch Duncan Mitchell..children Peter,Catherine ,Sarah ..would this be the right family
Rosie
-
Ancestry have Thomas and Jane on the 1871 and 1881 censuses:
1871 Address - 7, Lylesland, Abbey Burgh, Renfrewshire.
Thomas Allan 49, born Montalk, Perthshire, starch maker
Jane Allan 47, Denny, Stirlingshire
John 21 Campsie, Thomas (no age) Campsie, James 27 Paisley, Janet 14 Paisley, William 12 Neilston, Alex 9 Paisley, David 6 Paisley, Jane 3 Paisley
1881 Address - not given
Thomas Allan 59, born Kincardine Perthshire, starchwork worker
Jane 55 Denny, Alexander 18, David 16, Jane 13
Thomas, Jane and family are on the 1891 Canadian Census so emigrated sometime between the two censuses. Not seeing William on any 1881 census so far.
Scotlands People have Thomas's baptism:
Allan Thomas - Peter Allan & Kath. McBeath - 22.10.1821 - parish Kincardine.
Only one other child appears on SP and Family Search for those parents: the James born Tibbermore 7.12.1823
-
1871 Address - 7, Lylesland, Abbey Burgh, Renfrewshire.
Thomas Allan 49, born Montalk, Perthshire, starch maker
I think a look at the original for this would be an idea as I can't think of a place close to the spelling of "Montalk" (not to say it didn't exist)!
I have written a list of place names I know of to try & fathom what it's close to & best I can come up with is Milnathort?
Annie
Others off the top of my head beginning 'M' although they don't look like a near fit
Methven
Murthly
Madderty
Muthill
Monzie/Monzievaird
Meigle
Meikleour
Muirtoun/Muirton
Annie
-
This looks like William in the 1881 census at St Thomas Elgin East Ontario
Thomas Allen age 30 ( engineer )born about 1851 Scotland
Martha Allen age 31 born England
Emanuel 7,Jane 3, Thomas 2,
James Allen age 27 b Scotland ( shoemaker ) same occupation as 1871 census Scotland
William Allen age 22 b Scotland about 1859 (ship plater )
Marriage for Thomas Allen 6/4/1877 St Thomas Elgin age 25 father Thomas mother Jane
Spouse Martha Dyer age 27 father William mother Emma ?
Witnesses Joseph Currie and James Allan ..
Rosie
-
Record for James Allan age 23 occupation shoemaker and a wife can't make the name out
Port of Departure Ireland Glasgow Scotland
Arrival 25 August 1872 Quebec Canada ship St David
Rosie
-
Thankyou to everyone for all of your help. I am so thankful to all of you for this great information
-
Thankyou to everyone for all of your help. I am so thankful to all of you for this great information
Your welcome :)
Rosie
-
1871 Address - 7, Lylesland, Abbey Burgh, Renfrewshire.
Thomas Allan 49, born Montalk, Perthshire, starch maker
I think a look at the original for this would be an idea as I can't think of a place close to the spelling of "Montalk" (not to say it didn't exist)!
I did wonder if it could be Menteith. I can see poor writing making that seem like Montalk! Port of Menteith is the neighbouring parish to Kincardine. I agree that seeing the original is the only way of sorting that one out.
-
I'm always confused as to exactly what "town" they are are born in, which is why I listed everything.
Very wise!
If it's any help, I have a similar problem with places in England, let alone in other parts of the world.
It's not helped by the fact that the meanings of the words 'town' and 'city' have shifted over time. In this day and age a town is a place larger than a village, but not large or important enough to be a city.
In earlier times, the word 'town' in Scotland often (usually, even) refers to a single farm consisting of a farm house, barns, byres, stables, bothy and cotterhouses.
In the US (as I understand it) the term 'city' can refer to a place that in Scotland would be referred to as a village. And I have been to many a 'village' in various parts of Europe that is several times larger than some places described as 'town' in Scotland.
See also http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=758930.0
-
I did wonder if it could be Menteith. I can see poor writing making that seem like Montalk! Port of Menteith is the neighbouring parish to Kincardine. I agree that seeing the original is the only way of sorting that one out.
J11,
I would definitely agree on that (one I'd forgotten) but worth getting the original as it will help not only to confirm but to move up the ladder possibly?
Annie
-
I did wonder if it could be Menteith. I can see poor writing making that seem like Montalk! Port of Menteith is the neighbouring parish to Kincardine. I agree that seeing the original is the only way of sorting that one out.
J11,
I would definitely agree on that (one I'd forgotten) but worth getting the original as it will help not only to confirm but to move up the ladder possibly?
Annie
Yes would think it was Monteith ;D
Rosie
-
Hi Rose if I may ask for an explanation what does it mean where it says 1851 census "Allisons Land Newton Mearns Refrewshire" and on the 1861 census address Grahams Land Toll Bar Neilston Renfrewshire?
A 'land' in a Scottish urban setting (trying to avoid using the word 'town'!) is a group of dwellings close together. The most common type of group is a block of what would now be called flats, with a common stair and a common entrance from the street. They are often informally named after the proprietor, or after a prominent resident, and the names don't always survive. Another word used to describe this sort of building is 'tenement' but that too has a different meaning in smaller rural villages, where it refers to a small piece of land, usually with a house on it. 'Tenement' also has a connotation of urban deprivation, though that is now changing as the worst slums have been demolished and replaced. Some examples of urban tenements:
http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/5054304
http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/1076322
http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/4052405
A Toll or Toll Bar is a place where tolls were collected from people using a road. Until the 19th century many roads were privately owned by the landowner over whose land the road led. He would build a toll house and install someone to watch passing traffic and collect a fee from each one. This person was described as a tollkeeper. Many tollhouses have survived; they can often be recognised because they incorporate windows set at 45º to the road to make it easy for the tollkeeper to watch the traffic. Tolls were aften sited on the boundary of a city, town or village.
Some examples of toll houses
http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/205174
http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/312044
http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/823277
Newton Mearns is the largest settlement (village) in the parish of Mearns, and Neilston is the neighbouring parish. Both are in Renfrewshire, which is also known as the County of Renfrew (but never 'Renfrew County' or 'County Renfrew' - neither of these usages occurs in Scotland)
Incidentally, someone referred upthread to 'Argyllshire area'. Argyllshire, or the County of Argyll, is a historic county with defined borders, not an 'area'.
-
I think the county is spelled Argyle, the parish, district & dukedom is Argyll.
Skoosh.
-
I think the county is spelled Argyle, the parish, district & dukedom is Argyll.
I was and am under the impression that Argyle is simply an alternative, and much less common, way of spelling the name of the county.
Fullarton's Gazetteer (1842) says. "Argyle or Argyll, an extensive shire ....".
Putting "Argyle County Council" into a well-known search engine produces just 10 hits. "Argyll County Council" produces 1,210. "Argyllshire County Council" crops up 152 times, and "Argyleshire County Council" just once.
The GENUKI web site and Scotland's People both Use 'Argyll' for the county. So does this web site.
The NRS catalogue has 1755 items mentioning Argyle, only 44 of which are associated with the word 'County' and 21,724 mentioning Argyll, of which 2,617 are in association with the word 'County'.
So I will be sticking with using 'Argyll', as I always have done, to refer to the county, and using 'Argyle' for the the names of sundry streets, and of course for the well-known diamond pattern socks.
-
The area I am in comes under Argyll & Bute :)
Rosie
-
Just wanted to say hello from another William Allan branch, but from Glasgow. A bunch of ham curers and spirit dealers. Not related but always interested in the name.
Excellent work there too Rosie. Enjoyed reading your findings.
-
Thank you Amberdog :) :)
Rosie